EMERGENCY, HELP PLS [Archive]

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 03:08 AM

I came home from work & 3 of my wild tefe greens were dead. Another one is so close to death, I shudder. Another one was fine, but within 15 mins of me getting home he has started to fall to his side. Only one seems unaffected.

Last night I did a 50% water change from from water ageing tank. The wc was carried out on all 5 tanks. No problems in the other 4 tanks. The only thing I can think of is that I filled this tank far too high. The water was touching the glass lids. I didn't realise I'd filled it that high, even though I fed them this morning before work, I still didn't notice. Just chucked the beef heart in & watched them start eating - all seemed well.

Is there anything I can do for the 2 that looked to be struggling. When I first got home, if lack of oxygen was the problem, I thought a wc & adding an air stone might revive the one close to death. He was still breathing , but laying flat on his side. Two swimming upright. Only after I had syphoned out half the water & added the air stone did another fish start falling to his side.

Should I try holding these fish upright, or is it a myth that will help.

I know others here will have gone through horrors like this before me, when almost a whole tank is wiped out - but I can't begin to tell you how devastated i am.

Is there anything I can do.

If not lack of oxygen - what else could wipe them out so quickly?

These fish were fine this morning & now, I'll be lucky if I'm left with 1 out of 6.

One of my poor fish on the tank floor is still breathing. One of those still shown swimming, soon after this shot started falling on his side on the tank floor as well.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0956.jpg

Darren's Discus

03-26-2009, 04:54 AM

Robyn,
sorry to hear of your losses.do you have another tank where you can move them too ? the water might have gone off,i would get them out of their.

cheers

Eddie

03-26-2009, 05:07 AM

Robyn, I am super sorry to hear.

To me it sounds like poison from something in the water or tank. I'd do as Darren suggests and get them out QUICK.

I am so sorry, hope they pull through

Eddie

Eugene1

03-26-2009, 05:09 AM

awww sorry for your loss...

Also check the heater.

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 05:17 AM

Hi Darren

Thanks for your kind words. I'm blubbering like a baby over here.

I already moved them. I didn't refill my water ageing tank last night, so I got 2 small containers (only ever used for fish) & syphoned water from the wild brown's tank into them. The two fish that look like they might make it (yes 2 look like making it now) are in one container.

The one closest to death I put in it's own container. I have been sitting there holding him upright, in case that might help. I read somewhere it might. But when I let him go, he swims for less than a minute & falls over. In case my hand holding him was stressing him, I have just now propped up a little barrier in his container, not giving him enough room to lay down. He is turning blacker & blacker as I watch him.

Is it better to keep trying to keep him upright, or should I remove the barrier & just let him lay on the bottom? I just feel so sad for him, but I'm trying to will him to live.

If it was lack of oxygen, why isn't the fresh water & the air stone helping him now. But if it was not lack of oxygen, I can't think what else can have killed so quickly.

I really hope at least two survive, (not much hope for the 3rd). But I know that 2 discus alone in a tank is not a good situation for them & I have no idea when I find more wild greens. I was looking for them for over 12 months & it just kills me this happened.

EDIT: Eddie, Eugene1 you must have been posting while I was replying to Darren. Thanks for your kind words.

Eddie

03-26-2009, 05:21 AM

Hi Darren

Thanks for your kind words. I'm blubbering like a baby over here.

I already moved them. I didn't refill my water ageing tank last night, so I got 2 small containers (only ever used for fish) & syphoned water from the wild brown's tank into them. The two fish that look like they might make it (yes 2 look like making it now) are in one container.

The one closest to death I put in it's own container. I have been sitting there holding him upright, in case that might help. I read somewhere it might. But when I let him go, he swims for less than a minute & falls over. In case my hand holding him was stressing him, I have just now propped up a little barrier in his container, not giving him enough room to lay down. He is turning blacker & blacker as I watch him.

Is it better to keep trying to keep him upright, or should I remove the barrier & just let him lay on the bottom? I just feel so sad for him, but I'm trying to will him to live.

If it was lack of oxygen, why isn't the fresh water & the air stone helping him now. But if it was not lack of oxygen, I can't think what else can have killed so quickly.

I really hope at least two survive, (not much hope for the 3rd). But I know that 2 discus alone in a tank is not a good situation for them & I have no idea when I find more wild greens. I was looking for them for over 12 months & it just kills me this happened.

I understand Robyn, I feel what you feel.

When I accidentally overheated my tank, one of the 3 fish that survived actually layed on its side for a while. I had to keep flipping him upright and eventually he settled upright in the corner.

I hope that they come through,

Eddie

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 05:32 AM

Thanks Eddie.

I forgot to mention, the 3rd one, the one that is being propped to keep upright & not likely to survive. At one point while I was holding him upright, he either threw up or spit out some brownish substance from his tummy. What does that mean?

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 08:08 AM

Will it be safe to put the two survivors back in their tank, after a 100% water change?

The third one is still alive, but it will be a miracle if he is in the morning.

I don't feel comfortable putting them in one of the other tanks, just in case it was a disease (though I guess a disease wouldn't have been this swift). They were perfectly healthy last night & this morning.

keef

03-26-2009, 08:27 AM

So sorry to hear this Robyn. I understand exactly from a past experience how upsetting all of this is. It's even the worse when you dont know the cause. Sometimes you wish that they'd just open their mouths, start talking and tell you! I'm afraid I don't know enough about Discus to offer much but I just want you to know I'm sending you & your remaining 3 fish some positive vibes (especially the little guy who's really struggling)! I sincerely hope they all pull through...
keith

Mr Wild

03-26-2009, 08:35 AM

Oh Rob - no!!!!!

I remember seeing them when I was there. Ok with me it was the water so go back over what you did, Why not test the water now and see if there is anything showing in there that shouldn't be? Do you have carbon? Can you get a filter going with it in and get the water moving through it? Kath

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 09:39 AM

Hi Keith & Kath

Thanks so much for kind words.

The ammonia & nitrite are nil & nitrate is between 10-20ppm. That is normal for my tanks, as I have nitrate in my tap water. The water they are in now, taken from the wild brown tank, tests the same.

Ten days ago I had the house treated for cockroaches. In the garage, where my ageing tank is, pest controller put gel all around. The gel attracts the cockroaches & they go away to die. When I didn't know what to think of as my trouble source tonight, I thought I would empty out my ageing tank, give it a good scrub & make sure it was spic & span. Well, to my horror I found some dead cockroaches in there. They must have fallen in, after eating the gel. But I used that water tank to fill 5 tanks last night & there's only a problem in one.

I'm pulling at straws here, but here are some possibilities I can think of. I'd really love to know the opinions of anyone here, if you think any of these could be the cause or what else could do it so quickly:-

Lack of oxygen due to water level being too high (touching the glass lids) & no air stone in this tank. This is fixed now. If lack of oxygen, why didn't fresh water & air stone help the one still struggling poisoned cockroach in ageing tank somehow caused fatalities in this tank, but not the others. Could a dead cocky have been pumped into the tank itself (didn't see one, but maybe)
Not enough aeration in the water ageing tank for the volume of water being stored caused water to go bad (again - why no effect on the other tanks) Found some rust residue on the floor of the ageing tank (from hose clamp - now removed)

Keith, the poor one who is struggling so hard is barely breathing now. I am just hoping for a miracle overnight.

Chad Hughes

03-26-2009, 10:10 AM

Wow! Sorry to hear of your loss! OUCH!

I believe that you have found your problem with the dead cockroaches. Discus, or any other fish for that matter, do not take pesticides well. This would also explain the sudden deaths. Even with changes to the water table, Discus likely take days to really get to the point that they are going to die. Pesticides work as well on the fish as they do on the things that they are intended to kill.

You need to get these fish in fresh water that was not exposed to the pesticides.

In the furute, if you use pesticides, I would cover everything that you don't want to become polluted. I use pesticides and weed killers around my home as well. I cover tanks with air tight plastic if the pesticide is airborne. I would certainly recommend that you cover your water storage tanks no matter what.

Best wishes!

Darren's Discus

03-26-2009, 01:36 PM

Robyn,
how are they going ?

cheers

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 03:48 PM

Hi Chad, no pesticides that used in the downstairs area of house was airborne. My pest guy was a fish keeper himself, though not discus, and I chose him for that reason. Air borne was used upstairs & outside. What was used downstairs was a gun type thing that squeezed out pesticide in a gel form (like a hot glue gun, I guess). Even so, I did cover all the tanks while he was there. Only thing I can of is that cocky's ate the gel & became poisoned & before they died, managed to crawl through the gap & into the ageing tank. Then died in there, leaching their poison into the water.

The ageing tank was been thoroughly scrubbed out last night & a fresh batch of water is being in there, being aerated & heated.

Darren

2 of them look like they will be fine. The one struggling is still barely breathing. The water in his container was not looking so good this morning, so I have changed it for him. It is like either he is spitting up more of the brown stuff I saw earlier, or something is oozing off his body. That can't be a good thing, but I am seriously surprised to find him alive at all.

Do you think it was the cocky or lack of oxygen? Or any of my other suggestions, or anything else.

If it is the pesticide, well at least I know. I will try to make sure my ageing barrel is better sealed so no half dead cocky's can crawl in again, that I am not really sure yet how to do that.

Other than 100% wc, anything else I should do before I return them to the tank. I don't want to let the filters go to long without more of a load in there, but I don't want to kill the survivors either. I did leave 5 sterbai corries still in the tank. There were 6 yesterday, but I also lost 1 sterbai in yesterday's disaster.

Roxanne

03-26-2009, 04:10 PM

Hi Robyn...just found this, what a blow.:(

have to re read this but just wanted to register support first....what's happening now?...have you scoped the brown stuff he is spitting up? Could the beefheart be off?...questions...questions...

Rox

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 04:11 PM

The struggling one, poor thing, I discovered this morning the heater I gave him must not be working properly. I didn't notice this at first, because the water I gave him was already heated & still was at the right temp wen I went to bed last night, but this morning, it was down to 25d Celsius - last thing an already struggling discus needed. Unbelievable.

waters10

03-26-2009, 04:18 PM

Ten days ago I had the house treated for cockroaches. In the garage, where my ageing tank is, pest controller put gel all around. The gel attracts the cockroaches & they go away to die. When I didn't know what to think of as my trouble source tonight, I thought I would empty out my ageing tank, give it a good scrub & make sure it was spic & span. Well, to my horror I found some dead cockroaches in there. They must have fallen in, after eating the gel. But I used that water tank to fill 5 tanks last night & there's only a problem in one.

Sorry for your loss ... :(

I agree. I has to be related to the pesticides. Not sure why only one was affected. I guess that's a good thing!

Chad Hughes

03-26-2009, 06:07 PM

Sorry to hear of all your problems. It seems when it rains it pours sometimes.

Hopefully with the fresh batch of water and goot heater, you'll swing back! Some discus are just hartier than others when it comes to issues like this. Some will react rather quickly and others will linger.

I wish you all the best!

Mr Wild

03-26-2009, 06:28 PM

Rob
Well you know my history, and through it all my 2 larger ones have survived when all others have died. Did they get the same dose of stuff? probably but for some reason they were able to withstand it when others couldn't. Doesn't sound logical but there you go it happens. How is the bird in the garage?

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 06:36 PM

Not sure why only one was affectedIt's one tank out of five, but 3 discus are dead & one more will surely die. There are 2 that I'm sure will be survivors, one which was on his way out (just starting to fall over as I arrived home) but fresh water & an air stone revived him.

I am wondering if because these are wilds, and only newly brought into captivity, if that made them succumb quicker.

A friend on another forum told me he had his whole discus tank whiped out when a cockroach that he thinks ate bait, then fell in his tank & died, so this supports what you are all saying.

Rox, no I didn't think to scope the water. Probably should have, but it's already down the drain, so too late for that now. I'm thinking that the stuff I saw is just another indicator of his body breaking down & maybe the "throwing up" thing also supports the theory of it being poisoning.

I feel almost sure the beef heart (actually, it was Eddie's seafood mix) was fine, but I will throw that particular zip lock package out, 'cause why risk it.

I'm also almost sure it can't have been a disease, as diseases don't usually kill this quickly, nor would fresh water & an air stone have saved the one that revived.

No-one seems to think it was the oxygen issue, but I was really hoping that was it, cause it is something I can easily fix. But I guess the fact that the oxygen didn't revive the struggling one is the main reason to discount that thought.

Mr Wild

03-26-2009, 06:40 PM

Rob
When I lost power some time ago I came home to find the female at deaths door but everyone else looked fine. Got the battery powered pump out asap and put in the tank and literally sat the discus over it at the top and yes it revived b ut why didn't they all succumb? Come to think of it she is the wild too! mmmmmm

Mr Wild

03-26-2009, 07:06 PM

Rob
Read this thread!
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69909

waters10

03-26-2009, 08:06 PM

It's one tank out of five, but 3 discus are dead & one more will surely die. There are 2 that I'm sure will be survivors, one which was on his way out (just starting to fall over as I arrived home) but fresh water & an air stone revived him.

Yeah, I meant one tank, not one discus. I'm glad you got some survivors and the key now is to understand what happened, so it doesn't happen again.

I lost some discus before, but they were sick and it took some time for them to die. I think losing suddenly like you did, is much worse! :( Hope it all works out from now on.

Eddie

03-26-2009, 09:56 PM

Robyn, that is such an off the wall occurance. It surely sounds to be poison as that was my initial thought (post).

I'm so sorry and hope the others rebound 100%. Best of luck and hope you find some more greens. I know how much you enjoyed them.

All my best,
Eddie

TankWatcher

03-26-2009, 10:45 PM

Rob
Read this thread!
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69909 Thanks so much Kath. This thread supports the lack of oxygen theory, which was always my gut feeling. Normally I don't have the tank filled so high & the water surface is broken by the two filter returns. This time, the water was so high it touched the glass & there would have nil surface agitation.

I don't think I'll ever know for sure, but thanks to everyone for helping out. Majority opinion is the pesticide issue, but the oxygen issue is a possibility too. Gives me something positive to work on. So lesson learned:-

seal ageing tank to prevent cockroach entry
don't over fill tank
use air stone

I lost some discus before, but they were sick and it took some time for them to die. I think losing suddenly like you did, is much worse! Yes, it really sucks. So unexpected, no warning, am still in shock.

majik

03-27-2009, 01:52 AM

Have been following your crisis and have to say im sorry for your losses hope the others pull through unscathed.

TankWatcher

03-27-2009, 02:10 AM

Thanks Majik,

I'm gutted to say the struggling one was dead when I got home (just now). Really, it's what I expected, but I couldn't help having hopes :cry:

Now I have two lonely wild greens, when I should have had a tank full of 6. I do intend getting some more wild greens (have asked Darren to keep any eye out for me) but I don't know how long it will be, as they're not available that much.

majik

03-27-2009, 02:56 AM

Oh crap im sorry to hear that it is gutting to lose fish and so much more so when they are nice fish and hard to get its never the small ugly ones that go :( im really sorry.

shawnhu

03-27-2009, 03:05 AM

I'm sorry for your loss, those were beautiful Discus. I've also been following your struggles with them and their treatment for Hex and Nemotodes. Your thread was very helpful and informative, and no doubt that these guys have contributed to that.

Sometimes these things happen, makes us stronger, and wiser. You did what you could to save the remaining, and you should be proud of that.

Keep your chin up, better times are ahead.

shawnhu

03-27-2009, 03:07 AM

Oh crap im sorry to hear that it is gutting to lose fish and so much more so when they are nice fish and hard to get its never the small ugly ones that go :( im really sorry.

Actually, my small ugly one went 2 nights ago. Still hurts though, regardless.

TankWatcher

03-27-2009, 06:14 AM

Thanks majik

I'm sorry for your loss, those were beautiful Discus. I've also been following your struggles with them and their treatment for Hex and Nemotodes. Your thread was very helpful and informative, and no doubt that these guys have contributed to that.

Hi shawnhu, The discus that you read of the struggles with Hex and Nemotodes are wild browns. They made a full recovery & they are still alive & well in their own tank.

The 4 that died were in a separate tank. They were perfectly healthy and here are a couple of pics of some of them http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0847.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0856.jpg

They were finished their QT now & I was going to put the sand & driftwood in their tank this weekend. Still might, but there'll only be 2 in there.

Sometimes these things happen, makes us stronger, and wiser. You did what you could to save the remaining, and you should be proud of that.

Keep your chin up, better times are ahead.
Thanks so much for kind words. It helps to share these experiences with people who understand. Non fish keepers just don't get it :(

Actually, my small ugly one went 2 nights ago. Still hurts though, regardless. So sorry to hear that, shawnhu. Yes, the loss of a pet always hurts & you never want any of them die - pretty or not. But I get what majik means. In Australia, we just don't have access to wilds the same way as USA. I was searching for wild greens for more than a year, before I found these ones & I bought all the LFS got in stock. As majik lives in Aus, I think he means that he knows how hard it will be to replace them. This might sound mean, but if I had to pick out of all my fish for this to have happened to, I would pick even my most beautiful domestics, before the wilds, because I can always replace the domestics without too much effort. Mind you, I would still cry over their death.

Roxanne

03-27-2009, 06:36 AM

Robyn....those aren't the synchronised swimming discus you've lost are they? Don't say yes....:(

TankWatcher

03-27-2009, 07:08 AM

Robyn....those aren't the synchronised swimming discus you've lost are they? Don't say yes....:(Yes, sadly they are the ones I lost. 4 of them :cry:

They looked better than the photo above. I'd only had them 19 days in that picture and they were fatter by now & beautiful.

At least I have two left, but the synchronised swimming just won't look the same with so many of the team missing.

TankWatcher

03-27-2009, 07:14 AM

Just as an example of the progress of the greens from day 1 to day 19. This pic was taken on day 1. Compare it to the picture above.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/138G_523L_Discus%20Tank/000_0805.jpg

They were almost black with ragged fins.

I've had them nearly 3 months by now.

keef

03-27-2009, 07:29 AM

Robyn, you did all that you could possibly do. Don't be too hard on yourself, it was just one of those freak things, and could have happened to any single one of us here. Your clear & concise posting has educated us all on something none of us would ever have even considered before. We had exactly the same sticky stuff for Roaches laid in our garage (my fish room!) I thought I had it covered when I told the guy not to use any spray in or around the garage. And I'm sure tons of other people have had similar stuff put down so it could be that the loss of your guys will save someone else's fish in the future by people covering their water aging barrels etc. BTW - If I hear of any wild Greens turning up around this part of town I'll pm you right away.
Keep smiling!
keith

TankWatcher

03-27-2009, 07:48 AM

BTW - If I hear of any wild Greens turning up around this part of town I'll pm you right away. Oh, yes please Keith. I will be eternally grateful. Hopefully the LFS would ship them to Sydney. Darren said he will look out for me too.

Thanks, you're the best

TankWatcher

03-27-2009, 07:59 AM

How is the bird in the garage? So sorry, Kath, I completely missed this in your post. I guess I was preoccupied.

Butch is always a joy, but I'm still waiting for him to stop pulling out his feathers. In case anyone is curious, Butch, the Olive Rainbow Lorikeet, is my avatar.

shawnhu

03-27-2009, 04:48 PM

Robyn,

So those yellow looking ones are actually called Wild Greens? Those are also beautiful, I've never owned a wild before, and so far, I'm liking both the Browns, and the Greens!

Again, sorry for your loss.

TankWatcher

03-27-2009, 08:10 PM

So those yellow looking ones are actually called Wild Greens? Yes, I think they may alter their colour slightly (go darker) when I add the sand & drift wood, but I'm not exactly sure of that. You can also get Wild Red Spotted Greens, which are nicer again, but I haven't come across any of those yet.

Have a look in the wild section on SD. There are much nicer wilds owned by others. Some are just to drool over. I dream about finding ones like those - maybe one day.

majik

03-27-2009, 10:59 PM

Er im a she:p and im in New Zealand :D but its ok lol ,ANY nice discus are hard to get here imports go really really quickly and wilds are like hens teeth.I would love some wilds and have even gone to the trouble of looking into importing them myself but it would be mega bucks and far too much paperwork for my simple wee mind.I would also love some german fish but the Tony Tan imports i can get are nice.Any fish ive lost in the past have been big beautiful and not replaceable :( so my heart goes out to you Robyn.

majik

03-27-2009, 11:04 PM

Actually, my small ugly one went 2 nights ago. Still hurts though, regardless.
Ooops im sorry to hear that i didnt mean any offence by my comment:o,its always hard loosing fish even the oddball ones :(

TankWatcher

03-28-2009, 12:14 AM

Here are shots of my survivors. They weren't the best of the bunch (one has a twisted bar & the other has uneven top rays) but I'm so glad to have them.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0962.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0963.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0964.jpg

Ooops im sorry to hear that i didnt mean any offence by my comment,its always hard loosing fish even the oddball ones Hey majik, we know that. Re your country, I see I made a mistake before. You're in NZ, not Aus. I mistook your flag (didn't look too carefully, did I)? Is it hard to find wilds in NZ

rickztahone

03-28-2009, 02:40 AM

Here are shots of my survivors. They weren't the best of the bunch (one has a twisted bar & the other has uneven top rays) but I'm so glad to have them.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0962.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0963.jpg
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l128/TankWatcher/74G%20280L%20Wild%20Discus%20Tank/000_0964.jpg

Hey majik, we know that. Re your country, I see I made a mistake before. You're in NZ, not Aus. I mistook your flag (didn't look too carefully, did I)? Is it hard to find wilds in NZ

your survivors look beautiful, be proud that you did your best with the ones that passed.

Elite Aquaria

03-28-2009, 09:19 AM

Sorry you had to go through this ordeal...I was horrified when I saw the first picture of your fish dead on their sides...I am glad you were able to save 2

pcsb23

03-28-2009, 12:38 PM

Robyn, I'm so sorry to hear of this. What a crying shame.

TankWatcher

03-28-2009, 05:58 PM

Robyn, I'm so sorry to hear of this. What a crying shame.
Thanks Paul. I still can't believe it. I wish I could hit rewind for last week.

If they were sick, you have time to get used to the idea that you may lose them. I can't stress enough that these guys were the picture of health.
Eveyone here is very kind and saying that I did all I could. But as this was something in (or regarding) their water, I'm responsible for their deaths. If it was the pesticide issue, my mistake was not looking into my ageing barrel every day & checking for dead cockys. If it was the oxygen issue, again that was my mistake.

Thanks again for the sympathy Paul. It helps.

cyberhog05

03-29-2009, 09:20 PM

Man I just read this and what a loss. I am sure glad I live in the mountains where I dont have to use pesticides, herbicides or anything like that! I am sorry to hear of your losses and am glad to hear you saved 2 of them! Good luck

calihawker

03-30-2009, 12:31 AM

So sorry to hear about your loss Robyn. You did everything you could for the little guys so don't beat yourself up to much. We want to do the absolute best for the animals in our care but it's virtually impossible to foresee every problem that may occur. Chin up:o

Steve

TankWatcher

03-31-2009, 07:43 PM

I was horrified when I saw the first picture of your fish dead Sorry, Dan - I didn't post those pictures to shock or horrify you. Sorry if they did. Didn't mean to be morbid, but could think of no better way to convey in a visual manner the horror that met me on my return home from work that day.

Jarred & Steve, thanks for kind words. Yeah, my chin is up. Just trying to make sure I learn from the experience. You know, suck it up (the responsibility), learn from it (the mistake) and move on.

You guys on SD are great. Thanks for the support.

TankWatcher

04-01-2009, 05:52 AM

Hi all

Last week, some of you followed my ordeal on this thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69900

Two fish survived the water contamination issue. One survivor, before he came good, was quite affected & started laying flat on his side. He also went quite dark. He eventually recovered, after being put in fresh water with an air stone. His colour came good again as well. He & the other survivor were put back in their tank. I've been watching him since & I'd become concerned over the last few days, as his colour is not as bright a yellow as it was. He's not black, but it's like there is a shadow of black washing over his yellowness.

Still eats well & comes straight to the front of the tank at feeding time or whenever I am near the tank, but otherwise, he is hanging out more towards the filter in-take on his own. This is not normal behaviour for him, as these greens have always schooled the best out of any of my discus.

Today, I noticed one eye has a slight bulge. Then I noticed there is the beginning of a white film on the pupil. When you look at him side on, you can even see a little white bit of "something" on his pupil that sticks out.

I am guessing the stress of last Thursday has had an effect on his immune system.

I'm not sure what is best for him, but as a start, I'm going to give him a PP bath, as that usually cleans off external parasites, thought it might also help clean up his eye.

What do people usually treat this sort of thing with. I'd hate to lose him now.

Eddie

04-01-2009, 06:51 AM

TankWatcher

04-01-2009, 07:04 AM

Eddie

04-01-2009, 07:12 AM

Hi Eddie

I was wondering what happened to my question about the eye. I meant it to be a new thread, with a link back to this one as a cross reference.

When I do a long term salt bath, it's 1stpn per 40Litres. Sound right?

I am not sure about the long term salt baths, I did short 20 minute baths in a 1 tbsp/gallon

Eddie

TankWatcher

04-01-2009, 09:35 AM

Eddie,

I seem to remember that US tablespoons = 3 x 5ml teaspoons, whereas ours = 4 x 5ml teaspoons. How was yours measured?

Eddie

04-01-2009, 06:13 PM

Eddie,

I seem to remember that US tablespoons = 3 x 5ml teaspoons, whereas ours = 4 x 5ml teaspoons. How was yours measured?

1 US tbsp per one gallon

Eddie

TankWatcher

04-01-2009, 10:14 PM

1 US tbsp per one gallonHi Eddie

yes, that part I understand - I need to use a US tablespoon. But I'm not so sure that a US tablespoon = my AUS tablespoon. By memory, I think the US one is smaller than ours (by a 5ml teaspoon). So I'm trying to find out if you know how much a US tablespoon holds?

Is a US tbspn = to 3 x 5ml tspn and therefore equal to 15ml; or
Is a US tbspn = to 4 x 5ml tspn and therefore equal to 20ml

Our measuring spoons have markings on them, indicating the liquid volume each size spoon holds. What do the markings on your tablespoon indicate it holds?

I don't want to overdose each gallon by a teaspoon, 'cause when you multiply that over a few gallon, I could have several teaspoons too many. I seem to remember being caught out on this error quite a few years ago, when I was new fish keeper. I'm sure I overdosed a fish, due to the difference in our measuring systems. But I might just be remembering this wrong. Last thing I need to do is stress this fish further, by having the salt too strong.

Hope I've explained that wright :o

CliffsDiscus

04-01-2009, 10:31 PM

Sounds fairly normal after a shipment. Sometimes Discus will lie flat on the tank floor
for a week, just keep some movement in the water to help them swim back upright.

Cliff

Eddie

04-01-2009, 10:43 PM

Hi Robyn, you are correct a US tbsp is equal to 3 tsp where in Australia it is equal to 4 tsp.

Either way, the US amount in ml is
1 US tablespoon = 14.7867648 ml

Eddie

TankWatcher

04-01-2009, 11:06 PM

Eddie

04-01-2009, 11:38 PM

Thanks Eddie, I was fairly sure US tbspn was only around 15ml, so that's what I dosed last night. It could make quite a difference, if you used 10G of water - you'd have 10 tspns too much salt in there, if you used the Aussie tbspn instead of US.

True, except its only for a short bath in a small container. Another teaspoon probably wont kill the fish. :o

Eddie

TankWatcher

04-02-2009, 02:41 AM

For sure, Eddie, I'm sure your right on that. I used 4G, which means 15 Litres (in my speak :D). So there was the potential for 4 tspn too much. Just trying to do everything right for him now. Think he might be at a delicate stage, after his near death experience. If I stress him too much, I don't want to push him over the edge.

Maybe I'm just an over cautious & worried Discus mum right now, but I can't help it :o

Eddie

04-02-2009, 04:11 AM

TankWatcher

04-03-2009, 09:50 AM

Sounds fairly normal after a shipment. Sometimes Discus will lie flat on the tank floor
for a week, just keep some movement in the water to help them swim back upright.

Cliff Hi Cliff, sorry, I missed seeing your reply from the 2nd. I wish that was the solution, but these wilds aren't new. They were still in QT, but I've had them since 31.12.09. Thanks to the guys here, we've more or less decided on the cause of the death of 4 perfectly discus - majority vote is for pesticide poisoning. Issue now is that one survivor has had his immune system badly messed up by all this. He is not out of woods & I think I may still lose him.

Roxanne

04-03-2009, 04:56 PM

Hey Robyn

I know I promised you that article on oxygen/water interface, but I'm still lookin for it...:o...can't remember where I read it now....

I thought this was good though...the first one I thought might be relevant...if it was poisoning...

http://fishdoc.co.uk/disease/clinicalsigns.htm

Rox

TankWatcher

04-03-2009, 10:54 PM

Thanks Rox, I'll save that link. I think it's very relevant. Like your link says, without the tests its all guessing, but it helps to learn more about things.

Don't worry, if you can't find that oxygen/water interface article. It was only if you had it handy.

Roxanne

04-05-2009, 05:04 PM

....get ya tank ready me hearty:bandana:... you're having TWINS:D...:balloon:...Darren the Stork will be delivering last years Challenge fish this week, so you got a little something something to take your mind of your pain....:)

Rox

Roxanne

04-05-2009, 05:06 PM

the Australian runner ups 2008....

TankWatcher

04-05-2009, 06:58 PM

Thanks so much Rox, you are a generous person. Just so everyone reading this knows, Rox is giving me (yes GIVING me) 2 of last years Aussie Control Challenge fish, that she bought at the SD auction. Now, who else would do that? Not many, me thinks ! ! !

I'd hoped to be able to take the day off to meet you at the airport, but not sure I can take another day off this week. I had to take today off, to go to a specialist vet with my daughter for her sha pei. He might need the eye operation (like the one on Bondi Vet last Thursday- if you watched that one). The boss mightn't give me another day off this week. Perhaps I will have to come to your house after work that day instead.

BTW, back to the sick fish here. The salt baths aren't working for the pop eye. What else ??? Rox, you used Waterlife products, did you use MYXAZIN?

If it was MYXAZIN, Will MYXAZIN stain the silicon? What colour is the stain & is it too, too ugly?

I'm running out of QT tanks at the moment (hecekls in one, juvis in another & another is reserved for your Challenge fish). So, I wonder what effect the treatment will have on my display tank, if I do the treatment there?

My first priority is to get the fish well, the tanks future appearance is secondary - but I'd like to be forewarned. I do have lots of temporary tubs I could set up, but no extra cycled filter available for it. Would need daily wc if I set up a temporary tub & what effect would that have on the meds?

Any other suggestions for treating popeye / cloudy eye would be greatly appreciated. Fish is still eating, but colour is darker than usual.

Roxanne

04-05-2009, 08:03 PM

..I'd hoped to be able to take the day off to meet you at the airport, but not sure I can take another day off this week..... Perhaps I will have to come to your house after work that day instead.

... pop eye. What else ??? Rox, you used Waterlife products, did you use MYXAZIN?

If it was MYXAZIN, Will MYXAZIN stain the silicon? What colour is the stain & is it too, too ugly?

...& what effect would that have on the meds?

Any other suggestions for treating popeye / cloudy eye would be greatly appreciated. Fish is still eating, but colour is darker than usual.

1. sounds like a good excuse for you to visit I think;)...I can at least get them warmed up and you can take them home in a small tank with my car power inverter connected to a sponge filter & heater to keep them warm.

2. Myxazin: yes, yes, yes, none...:D..I can't say for sure because it was the last treatment I did, but Calypso's eyes responded after that and are pretty normal now...she STILL hasn't eaten anything:mad:...I'm doing my best to ignore that...silicone stains, well my silicone is still stained from the Sterazin so...can't tell, although I noticed the measuring cup has a stain....I don't really care cos silicone is ugly anyway IME:D..and Myxazin doesn't affect the filter..

as far as water changes and meds, if you do a WC before the med, and leave it in the water for at least 8 hours, I think it's fine...if you email waterlife, (they respond really quick)they will give you a more intensive dose schedule for any of their meds, even tho they won't say what is in it:alien:..the one that really knocked my discus around was the double dose sterazin...they did NOT like it..considering your little discus has suffered, I'm not sure I'd give it a double dose of anything.(we are talking about the synchronised survivor aren't we?)...if you could get a bit of his/her slime coat & scope it, you can possibly eliminate external parasites at least...they may have taken advantage of it's weakened state...but, if it was poisoned, and it was fine before that, I'm not sure if I would treat for anything...this is tricky...:confused:

I'm going to get "flamed" for saying this here, but even tho Calypso is looking ok, if i put frozen blood worms in the food "mix", her eyes swell....I know some people are allergic to the worms, so it makes me wonder....and after what I've scoped in the FRESH blood worm bag, I'm not using them again, that's all I'm gonna say...:bandana:

Rox

Eddie

04-05-2009, 08:06 PM

Wow Robyn now affect from the salt baths huh....that sucks. I know you are not able to get the same meds as we get here in the states. I read where someone had success with ridding their fish with popeye by using a med called maracyn plus. :o

By the way, those control fish are gorgeous as ever!

Eddie

Roxanne

04-05-2009, 08:11 PM

..all credit goes to Rod and Darren for their good looks...:)

TankWatcher

04-06-2009, 01:09 AM

Thanks Rox and Eddie for the replies.

Rox, think I will try MYXAZIN then, at standard dose & in the main tank. So, it was standard dose that worked for Calypso?

Yeah, silicone is ugly, but stained blue or green is uglier still. Oh well, I'd rather save the fish than have nice silicon - but still, it's a shame. If my sump & al the nemit tanks were set up, I'd be fine, but I'm behind schedule on that (waiting on the hired help for that one - meaning my son)

PS I'm intimidated by my scope. I have the scope, I bought all these books, plus I have some sites you've given me (lost the first site you linked me to) & I can't even get the scope out of the box. It seems too daunting. Yes, yes, silly I know :o

Roxanne

04-06-2009, 02:02 AM

...bring the scope with you when you come over....we'll scope my water and some saved samples and you'll get a feel for it....:)

Mr Wild

04-06-2009, 04:50 AM

Oh Robyn,
That is wonderful news! Congratulations you lucky gal! Enjoy it you have been through enough! Kath

TankWatcher

04-06-2009, 04:28 PM

Hi Kath

That is wonderful news! Congratulations you lucky gal! Yes, I am lucky - thanks again to Rox.
Enjoy it you have been through enough!It isn't over yet, either. 1 survivor is now having secondary issues (popeye & body is going darker every day)

Mr Wild

04-06-2009, 06:13 PM

TankWatcher

04-06-2009, 07:23 PM

I wonder what you could put in the water that he can drink/breath that might nuetralise the poison? You know like if is was us we would use Ipak (not sure of spelling) or something like that, something to absorb it? mmmmmmmI'm no expert on discus & their immune system, but IMO this is a secondary issue, where an opportunistic bacteria has taken advantage of the recent stress placed on this particular discus. I think the stress of his near death experience has weakened his immune system. Probably I'm wrong, but that's what I think is happening.

I contacted Waterlife & had a reply this morning. They think this has now turned into a bacterial issue & suggest I treat with MYXAZIN . So at the moment, that's the path I'm going down.

Thanks for the continued support. Fingers & toes are crossed.

Mr Wild

04-06-2009, 09:24 PM

Good luck with him Robyn! Even told my fish to cross their fins for you! lol
Kath

TankWatcher

04-10-2009, 07:29 PM

Thanks Kath.

Today is day 5 of Myxazin. The treatment course is for 5 days. I think he is responding to the treatment. Clouding looks less & I think swelling is less too. Rox, for Calypso, did you stop after day 5, or did you need to continue on. Wondering, if because I think I see improvement, I should stop the treatment & hope the improvement continues, or should I extend the treatment?

Luckily, he never stooped eating. All I need do is approach the tank & he is front & centre begging for food.

Roxanne

04-10-2009, 08:35 PM

Hi mate:)...yes, only the 5...cos at that stage, mine had had so many meds, their livers/kidneys/whatever were at risk...did you email waterlife about extra dosing?....they may have a recomendation for extra days or they might say don't....I wouldn't want to recommend the wrong thing:o

TankWatcher

04-11-2009, 08:49 PM

Hi Rox, yeah I did email waterlife & they replied - but I didn't ask about extending treatment, only about whether to dose at stronger rate.

Reply from Waterlife
it does sound as if it may be a bacterial problem. We would suggest that you treat with Myxazin initially at the recommended dosage as instructed on the bottle. We would also suggest that you do not carry out water changes if possible during the treatment course. We suggest that you check the water parameters daily as if poisoned cockroaches have contaminated your water supply the filter bacteria may be affected. Being Easter, I wouldn't expect a reply from them now. His eye is definitely looking better & I don't want to lose the momentum of recovery. So I plan to do a big wc now (since 5 days of dosing & no wc is finished). Then I will add dose today as if starting from day 1. I hope this is the right plan to follow.

Roxanne

04-12-2009, 02:42 AM

:)Happy Easter to u & your family & tickles for Butch

Did you do wc during Myxazin? How's the survivor looking BTW?

Rox

TankWatcher

04-12-2009, 07:58 PM

:)Happy Easter to u & your family & tickles for Butch

Did you do wc during Myxazin? How's the survivor looking BTW?

Rox

Happy Easter to you & your family, too Rox :)

Based on waterlife's advice, there was no wc done during the treatment. I did wc yesterday & gave the tank a med free day. Day 1 of the 2nd round of Myxazin went in today. I am sure that the survivor's eye is better than it was, but not back to normal as yet. His colour is darker than it was before this whole mess started, but not as dark as it was a few days back. Eats well. I'm quietly confident he will make it (hope I dont' jinx it now).

The 2nd survivor is perfectly well.

Roxanne

04-13-2009, 06:13 PM

Hey Robyn:)

How is the patient today? Looking any better?

I got 6 little juvies that remind me of yours with the bars, and they swim in lines, though not as synchronised as your bunch were.

Roxanne

TankWatcher

04-13-2009, 06:34 PM

How is the patient today? Looking any better?Hey Rox, improvement is little by little, still I'm sure each day is a little better than the day before. Thanks for asking.

Have you put pics up for your little juvies. I'd love to see them.

Roxanne

04-13-2009, 06:38 PM

...I'm going to start a thread about them to get other members ideas so I'll put a pic up there....but back to you...

Is the survivor ok in colour now? Is it eating still? Are eyes showing improvement? Sorry for the rapid fire:p:D

Rox

TankWatcher

04-13-2009, 06:51 PM

Ok, will watch out for your thread.

He's a great eater - through this whole thing, he never stopped eating. Behaviour is normal - no hiding.

His eye & his overall colour both seem to improve little by little each day. Eye not perfect yet, but only a small bit of clouding (which I wonder if it will be a scar). Swelling is down, to the point where I have to look & decide if it is still actually swollen. I think it is, but slight. Not sure you'd notice the swelling now, if you weren't an overly obsessive discus mum looking for it.

Roxanne

04-13-2009, 08:09 PM

...Swelling is down, to the point where I have to look & decide if it is still actually swollen. I think it is, but slight. Not sure you'd notice the swelling now, if you weren't an overly obsessive discus mum looking for it.

:D...I so get that!!! You don't know if you are imagining it, wishing too hard, hoping too much...lol...the only way I have been able to really tell Calypso's eyes were better was from comparing photos & her eyes to her sisters eyes....then I read about TB behind the eyes in that book you sent me and I panicked...:D

Good to hear he is picking up....:)