HELP! Discus can't keept its balance?? [Archive]

seanyuki

04-27-2009, 12:09 PM

Just sharing....

Swimbladder Disease

by Dr. Barb

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The swimbladder is the organ responsible for buoyancy and when there is a problem with it, a fish can have difficulty rising to the surface ("sinker"), difficulty swimming to the bottom ("floater"), swims on its’ side or swims in the nose down vertical position.
The following is a list of the causes of swimbladder disease (SBD) and what if anything can be done about them.

1. Viral infection: There is no specific medicine that will treat this and it may or may not get better.

2. Bacterial infection: This is a very rare cause of SBD, so one could treat with a medicated (anti-bacterial) food or an antibiotic like KanaPlex or Maracyn-Two in the water, in a hospital tank, but the yield with this treatment is very low.

3. Dropping a fish: Uh... didn't happen did it?! If your fish jumped out of the tank, the fall can bruise and even rupture the swimbladder organ. Only time will tell if this will heal. Bruises often heal but a ruptured swimbladder will not. Fast or feed your fish only very lightly for a few days after a fall to reduce stress on a potentially injured swimbladder.

4. Toxins: Hydrogen sulfide, from anaerobic bacteria, which gives a smell of "rotten eggs" to the tank’s water, water parameter abnormalities (unstable pH, elevated ammonia, nitrites or nitrates) and improper dechlorination (removal of chlorine) or dechloramination (removal of chloramines) can cause SBD. Proper water oxygenation, partial water changes and use of appropriate water conditioners may help. Medications can cause problems with equilibrium and may need to be stopped if SBD symptoms begin while treating.

5. Anatomy: Unusual anatomy in some fish, such as the stomach of globoid-shaped ornamental goldfish, makes them more susceptible to problems with the swimbladder. These fish are predisposed to impactions with food, which in turn clogs up the pneumocystic duct, which does not allow the swimbladder to inflate and deflate properly. Goldfish that lay or swim upside down are said to have "Flipover".

6. Diverticulum: A weakening of the swimbladder wall or a visible "out-pocketing", especially when occuring towards the tail of the fish, can cause floating problems. These fish often cannot get their tails below the water's surface and "bob" there, tail up. Releasing the gas by puncturing the out-pocketing with a sterile needle and syringe might help. Perform this only as a last resort and get more specific advice before attempting this.

7. Overfeeding/constipation: This the most common cause of SBD! Usually, the abdomen (belly) is swollen when a fish is constipated. Also, fish that gulp air at the water's surface when feeding can have swimbladder problems. The treatment is to withhold feeding for 24-72 hours or longer, and see if the constipation corrects itself. Examine what, how much and how often you are feeding the fish. Freeze-dried foods are notorious for causing constipation and swimbladder problems in fish.

For many fish, pre-soaking flake or pellet food (in conditioned water) is appropriate, as this will allow expansion of the dried food to occur prior to the fish eating it, and will lessen the chance of impaction. This may not be practical for a betta, who has a very small mouth, however a pellet can be broken into smaller pieces, soaked and then fed. Switching to frozen or live food would be helpful. A pelleted-food product for goldfish, ProGold, is touted as causing little to no constipation. Feeding sinking foods eliminates problems from air gulping. If the fasting does not work in a few days, then you may wish to try feeding a tiny piece(s) of frozen (but thawed) shelled pea, as this may help to dislodge any impaction. For bettas, these pieces of pea must be very small.

As a last resort for treating constipation in a betta, an Epsom salt bath can be performed. This is very stressful on a betta but a betta can die from constipation, so if no poo is seen after withholding food for one week and feeding tiny pieces of a frozen (but thawed) pea after 3-4 days of fasting, then this is worth a try.

Epsom Salt Bath for Betta Constipation:

1 Tbsp. Epsom salt
1/2 gallon conditioned water

Mix equal parts of your fish's current water with Epsom water. You can use just about any measurement, e.g. 1 pint, 1 quart, etc., just as long as you use an equal amount of Epsom water and tank water. Do not use Aquarium or other types of salt.
Make sure that you have enough of the old water left to put the fish back into, replacing the missing water with new conditioned same-temperature water.
Add your betta to the Epsom/tank water mixture for 15-60 minutes or until he poos (whichever comes first). If after 60 minutes in the water, he has not pooed, take him out and put him back in his old tank water and watch him over the next few hours.
Even if he does not poo in the Epsom/tank water, usually he will poo later after he has been removed.
If at anytime, while in the Epsom/tank water, he rolls over and stays there (such as on his side or upside down), then you will need to remove him immediately and put him back into his tank water.
One can burp larger fish manually, although this is to be avoided unless the fish is starting to fail. This can be done by applying gentle pressure to the underside of the fish, from just in front of the vent (anus) and sliding a finger forward toward to the mid section of the belly. If successful, one will often hear an audible 'burp'. One should then use a little Stress Coat or NovAqua afterwards because the handling of the fish may damage its' slime coat.

Be sure that there is nothing in the hospital tank for the fish to injure itself upon because of the swimming difficulties. For example, a plastic (sharp) plant might injure the eye of a fish who is swimming awkwardly on its' side.
Please post for help in the Flippers 'n' Fins' Emergency Room if needed.

Author: Dr. Barb

Cheers
Francis:).

Daniella

04-27-2009, 02:46 PM

The fish is going more and more in a normal position and only does the side way thing once or twice a day and for only a few seconds. seems to be getting better. However 2 of the other fish are having their fins clample as soon as there is light??

I watched them all resting with their fins wide open when the aquarium was covered with a towel and it was dark but as soon as the towel is moved a bit and light goes in, they clamp their fins.

I guess they are still very stressed. The breeder was having salt in his aquariums for those fish and suggested that I add salt wich I did.

It's been the second day and they don't look like they want to eat anything. Just stay in a corner hiding.

I guess they either have something or they just need time to adjust.

Maybe my 20 gallons is too small, not sure.

But the battle is not over yet. This too is a fish that seemed to suffer from long distance shipping, but more seriously than did Kath's. The stress seems to have triggered gill flukes & then secondary infection to cause the swim bladder problem.

I saw the fish on Saturday (when I picked up my 2 from the same shipping batch) & it wasn't headstanding while I was there, but it was having to work it's fins harder that usual to stay upright. Still, good news that it can manage that at all, I think.

Rox is treating with antibiotics which we hope will help. Just thought if you follow her treatment, it might help you out.

Still, your's might right itself after a day or so without the need for meds.

kaceyo

04-27-2009, 03:21 PM

You may want to leave the light off untill they adjust to their new surroundings. Their reaction to light is a sign of stress too.
I'd say a 20g is too small four fish especially with one being an adult. A bigger tank would take some of the stress off them.

Kacey

Daniella

04-27-2009, 10:32 PM

This is only my quarantine tank. I do have a 120 gallons waiting for them but until they act normaly, I won't risk putting them with my other discus.

The super eruption seem ok now but his stomach is very concave, like there is a hole where there should be a stomach.

I don't know how long they have been without food but I had one discus not eating for 3 weeks and it did not have such hole in the stomach.

is it normal for them to have such dip in the stomach?

Also the super eruption is holding its fins erected and normal but the 2 others keep their fins clamped and they rest at the bottom of the tank mostly.

I never had fish so quickly after they arrive from such long trip, so not sure if what is hapening is normal.

The guy who sold them to me said to put salt but after adding salt they seemed to get worse, so I did a few partial water change. Nothing seem to help so far.

You may want to leave the light off untill they adjust to their new surroundings. Their reaction to light is a sign of stress too.
I'd say a 20g is too small four fish especially with one being an adult. A bigger tank would take some of the stress off them.

Kacey

Roxanne

04-27-2009, 11:18 PM

It's only been a couple of days yeah? Like Kacey said, leave the lights off...the are stressed, try to leave them alone for a while and just have a lamp light on in the room they are in...does the one that was swimming odd have any bumps along it's spine?

Roxanne

Daniella

04-28-2009, 09:38 AM

They look healthy except for the clamped fins and very sunken stomach. They do not have deformity of any kind that I can see.

They have not been eating anything since I got them 3 days ago.

The super eruption is helding its fins normaly now but the pigeon blood has clamped fins and is sitting at the bottom. Looks like hes not going to make it.

Usualy when I get new fish they start eating very quickly and behave normaly. I never had fish right after they were coming from such a long trip. I think the importer probably is selling them quickly so that he won't have to deal with too many loss..not good!

Since they arrived from their trip on last thursday, I do not think they have any virus or all this time with clamped fins and bottom sitting, they would have started showing worse signs of illness.

So it's either just weakness or stress or some parasites taking over.

I suspect they have not been eating for long time since I once had a fish which did not eat for 2 weeks and it did not have a sunked stomach like that.

I do not have a light on that aquarium, so it's a very low ambien light from the room and the aquarium has a towel covering part of it to let them rest.

It's only been a couple of days yeah? Like Kacey said, leave the lights off...the are stressed, try to leave them alone for a while and just have a lamp light on in the room they are in...does the one that was swimming odd have any bumps along it's spine?

Roxanne

Mr Wild

04-28-2009, 09:48 AM

Sunken tummy sounds bad, I would try antibiotics first, but I am only new so you might want to wait for someone more experienced to give their opinion.
Mine has never had any sunken tummy. Can you get a photo up that would really help.

Roxanne

04-28-2009, 09:52 AM

...Was it the eruption that was bad and then came good, and the pidgeon was ok but has gone bad?

..does the pidgeon act normal when it can't see you?...

...how are their gills? and how are they breathing...what's your PH?...are they worse or better after a water change?

sorry about the rapid fire questioning, but we should eliminate these things anyway

Daniella

04-28-2009, 11:22 AM

All 3 have sunken tommy.

The super eruption was laying on its side often, but now it is not doing this any longer.

The pigeon blood was ok at first but now it is keeping its fins clamped and sit at the bottom most of the time.

It does seem to stay bottom sitting like that, no matter what is the condition.

they seem to be breathing normaly. Just have that wierd tommy and clamped fins. The eruption seem to be getting better and better, keeping its fins erected and not falling on its side anylonger, but it will not eat anything.

I will try hatching brine shrimp and see how it goes.

Can they all have bacterial infection? I bacterial infection contagious from fish to fish?

I know gill flukes and they don't act like fish having gill flukes. No flashing, scratching or breathing fast or breathing with one gill. they look normal on that reguard.

My PH is 7.2 and it is from tap water conditioned with Seachem Prime.

I do 50% water change 2 times a day, morning and evening. I am not sure if they are getting better after a water change as it does not seem to do much for them. I put a little bit of RO water too, like 1/3 of RO and 2/3 conditioned tap.

...Was it the eruption that was bad and then came good, and the pidgeon was ok but has gone bad?

..does the pidgeon act normal when it can't see you?...

...how are their gills? and how are they breathing...what's your PH?...are they worse or better after a water change?

sorry about the rapid fire questioning, but we should eliminate these things anyway

Daniella

04-28-2009, 11:26 AM

I will try tto take a photo later today.

Mine never had such sunken stomach even when one went like 2 to 3 weeks without food.

The wierdest thing is that they did not have such sunken stomach when I got them, and it is only after adding aquarium salt that I started to notice they were getting this.

Can sunken stomach happen so quickly? I am pretty sure they did not have such thing when I bought them as I would have noticed something that apparent.

so that's wierd after 2 days?

Sunken tummy sounds bad, I would try antibiotics first, but I am only new so you might want to wait for someone more experienced to give their opinion.
Mine has never had any sunken tummy. Can you get a photo up that would really help.

Roxanne

04-28-2009, 04:01 PM

...the fact that the eruption was on it's side and now is ok, is pretty positive considering it didn't need meds to help it recover..

......it is early days and I'm not sure throwing meds at already stressed fish is the way to go unless the pidgeon doesn't brighten up a bit....maybe more observation for now and check the RO unit is doing it's job properly

There are always bacteria that will take advantage of a weakened state, sometimes the fish can fend it off unassisted....does the pidgeon ever brighten up or does it stay dark ALL the time?

Roxanne

Daniella

04-28-2009, 04:59 PM

Today I went home for lunch just to check things out and to my surprise the pigeon blood was with all fins erected and swiming at about 6 inches from the bottom. When it saw me, it instantly clamped its fins and went right at the bottom sitting there in a 45 degree angle! that was wierd. I guess it is just tired and afraid of me.

I am really worried about their sunked tommy. What should I do about that?

Someone told me it could be fish TB. Now that's scary but I would be surprised if all the fish would have TB, right? there were not in the same tank at the importer and they have been together too little time to get TB from each other I guess.

I am guessing that TB take some time to show such sign and that all the fish would have it, and they did not have such belly when I got them.

The pigeon is very light in color so it never got dark. The super eruption also has good color and it is not dark. I will try to post some pics tonight. Not sure if I'll get the pigeon to swim normal or if it will act as miserable as it does when it it bottom sitting.

...the fact that the eruption was on it's side and now is ok, is pretty positive considering it didn't need meds to help it recover..

......it is early days and I'm not sure throwing meds at already stressed fish is the way to go unless the pidgeon doesn't brighten up a bit....maybe more observation for now and check the RO unit is doing it's job properly

There are always bacteria that will take advantage of a weakened state, sometimes the fish can fend it off unassisted....does the pidgeon ever brighten up or does it stay dark ALL the time?

Roxanne

Roxanne

04-28-2009, 05:33 PM

Today I went home for lunch just to check things out and to my surprise the pigeon blood was with all fins erected and swiming at about 6 inches from the bottom. When it saw me, it instantly clamped its fins and went right at the bottom sitting there in a 45 degree angle! that was wierd. I guess it is just tired and afraid of me.

.

:)....this is great news Daniella...

I am really worried about their sunked tommy. What should I do about that?

.

Try feeding them small amounts and leave the room immediately, hide where they can't see you and see if they are at all interested...don't forget to remove the uneaten food so it doesn't get fungus and poison the water. It can take a while for them to begin eating again..

I.
Someone told me it could be fish TB. Now that's scary but I would be surprised if all the fish would have TB, right? there were not in the same tank at the importer and they have been together too little time to get TB from each other I guess.

I am guessing that TB take some time to show such sign and that all the fish would have it, and they did not have such belly when I got them.

.

Piscine Tuberculosis is not always fatal, and the only way to know is to examine the dead fish for internal nodules...if a fish with TB is weakened, the nodules can burst and the infection can kill the fish, it's transmissible to humans which is why you shouldn't get any tank water in your mouth, ...once the fish is stressed the TB would kill it quick....IME yours would already be dead..I really don't think that's your problem here...

Daniella

04-28-2009, 06:14 PM

I will start a batch of brine shrimps tonight, so hopefully it will be ready tomorrow.

I also syphon right away any left over. I stop both filters (otherwise they just grab all the food) and for about 30 to 45 minutes I let the fish eat all they want, then I syphon the remains (where there are some LOL!) and start the filters back on.

With live food, it will be easier cleaning.

I also don't think they have TB or else one of them would be in very bad shape right now.

I am soo looking for a white worm culture, as this I am sure would tempt them, but I cannot find anywhere that sell it.

:)....this is great news Daniella...

Try feeding them small amounts and leave the room immediately, hide where they can't see you and see if they are at all interested...don't forget to remove the uneaten food so it doesn't get fungus and poison the water. It can take a while for them to begin eating again..

Piscine Tuberculosis is not always fatal, and the only way to know is to examine the dead fish for internal nodules...if a fish with TB is weakened, the nodules can burst and the infection can kill the fish, it's transmissible to humans which is why you shouldn't get any tank water in your mouth, ...once the fish is stressed the TB would kill it quick....IME yours would already be dead..I really don't think that's your problem here...

frenchie100

04-28-2009, 06:34 PM

I put a little bit of RO water too, like 1/3 of RO and 2/3 conditioned tap.

Are you consistent in the ratio you are using? Do you measure it out or are you guesstimating (:)) ?

Maybe they are getting a fluctuation in pH?

The 7.2 is that the tap water or is that the pH in the tank?

I did some speed reading through the thread so hopefully I didn't miss anything that would make my questions redundant? If so sorry :D

-Julie

Roxanne

04-28-2009, 08:34 PM

...I thought that first too Julie, but she is doing so much water changes that I don't think ph is a problem...but, I was thinking turning the filters off may be poisoning the water a little if they aren't mature filters, or even internal parasites, but Daniella spied them acting normal when she wasn't around....I think they just got a dose of jetlag AND cheekyfishitis...:D

Daniella

04-28-2009, 09:33 PM

It's about 1/3 of RO water but no I do not mesure precisely the ratio. I guess I am just trying to soften a little bit our hard tap water.

the PH in the tank is pretty much the same as the tap water, although I have not checked lately so I will do that tonight.

the tank PH is 7.2

Also the RO unit is a RO-DI and it is brand new 50gpd.

Are you consistent in the ratio you are using? Do you measure it out or are you guesstimating (:)) ?

Maybe they are getting a fluctuation in pH?

The 7.2 is that the tap water or is that the pH in the tank?

I did some speed reading through the thread so hopefully I didn't miss anything that would make my questions redundant? If so sorry :D

-Julie

Daniella

04-28-2009, 09:42 PM

I did not really shut the filter down for 30 minutes in the QT because the fish did not eat anything, so I syphoned it right away and did a 50% water change.

I do that routine of shutting down the filters in my 120 gallons tank 2 times a days.

How do you put so much food without the filters grabbing it otherwise? do you put the water intake very high up? At first I was leaving the filter on but noticed that there was ammonia at .12 so I cleaned the filter only to see a bunch of blood worms and beef heart in there and a lot of it, so why I close my filters when feeding from now on. That way no ammonia build up at all and I can feed tons of food so that each discus, even the less dominant, get a chance to fill their belly.

How long can you leave a canister filter off without killing the biofilter?

So far the fish seem to be a little better. It's kind of on and off going at the bottom with fins clamped and swimming with fins erected. They must be exhausted after such long trip and lack of food. I am amazed that they do not die in those bags during a 20 hours trip.

...I thought that first too Julie, but she is doing so much water changes that I don't think ph is a problem...but, I was thinking turning the filters off may be poisoning the water a little if they aren't mature filters, or even internal parasites, but Daniella spied them acting normal when she wasn't around....I think they just got a dose of jetlag AND cheekyfishitis...:D

Eddie

04-28-2009, 10:22 PM

Use a fine sponge for a pre-filter on the intake tube. You can leave the filter off for about 30-60 minutes and be just fine. Anything after that, I'd be monitoring ammonia/nitrite. Thats just me though. ;)

Eddie

Roxanne

04-28-2009, 11:45 PM

.....give small amounts of food at a time so they have time to catch it before it ends up in the filter, but like Eddie said, a filter sponge over the intake will keep the canister clean because the crap won't get sucked into it...
how mature are your filters?

Roxanne

Daniella

04-29-2009, 09:02 AM

The sponge in the filter intake is a good idea. Still need to be cleaned out regulary but much easier than cleaning a very heavy canister filter each day.

For the quarantine tank, I did feed a very small amount and left it there for like 10 minutes but they were not eating. For my 120 gallons, I cannot really do that because some of the less dominant discus would be bullied out of the food. Putting loads of food lessen the fighting behavior at feeding time I have noticed and I am sure that even my shy discus eat plenty enough.

They are very slow eaters and can take up to 45 minutes to eat. I only remove the rest (when there is some!) when they stop feeding. But they do keep at it for at least 30 minutes.

All my filters are 2 months old and pretty much cycled, but I am sure it will get even better in another 2 more months.

I am really thinking of putting the new fish in my main tank. They seem to be suffering from that too small 20 gallons tank. It's been one week since they arrived from their long trip and I am not sure my small QT is doing them any good to recover.

BTW, how is your head stander fish doing?

.....give small amounts of food at a time so they have time to catch it before it ends up in the filter, but like Eddie said, a filter sponge over the intake will keep the canister clean because the crap won't get sucked into it...
how mature are your filters?

Roxanne

Roxanne

04-29-2009, 08:26 PM

......

BTW, how is your head stander fish doing?

he's been in Mexico....:)...thanks for asking...

Is everybody swimming upright in your tank today Daniella?

Mr Wild

04-29-2009, 08:52 PM

Can you just get a plastic food grade tub and make that their QT? It is never a good idea to break QT especially when you are already having problems. Just fit it out the same filter heater air, they will do fine and I am sure you could find a bigger one even another the same size and split them up? I would think about that before I would think about putting them with known healthy fish. JMHO :)

Daniella

04-30-2009, 05:24 AM

What do you mean he's in Mexico? did you send it somewhere for a test?

I have good news and very bad news. the good news is that they new fish seem to be settling in. One (albino) even eated yesterday.

the bad news is that all my old fish are sick (discus plague?). They all hide in a corner with fins clampes and refuse to eat.

I did not even have to put them together, as what ever disease this is, it went from one aquarium to the other?

They were all fine on monday, then somewhere on tuesday they did not want to eat and started to hide. I checked the water and all seems fine as far as what I am able to check, ammonia and nitrite at 0.

It's been 2 days like that but no shedding of mucous, so not sure what it is.

My beautiful yellow face red melon is just floating at the top of the water with an angle and fins clamped, holding it's flippers close to the body. He looks miserable.

I had flukes before and used prazipro this weekend, but I used prazipro before without any ill effects. I even used double the dose once a month ago without any noticeable effects, so I doubt it is the prazipro that would make them all behave like that at the same time.

I put aquarium salt yesterday to see if that would help. I did one table spoon per 5 gallons.

not sure what to do next. :( As long as they are not shedding mucous I will think it's some parasites.

Can't be bacterial as they would not all be infected at the same time.

Can only be either a parasite or a virus. One trade mark of discus plague is the heavy mucous shedding, wish they don't have as of now after 2 days.

Can you just get a plastic food grade tub and make that their QT? It is never a good idea to break QT especially when you are already having problems. Just fit it out the same filter heater air, they will do fine and I am sure you could find a bigger one even another the same size and split them up? I would think about that before I would think about putting them with known healthy fish. JMHO :)

Eddie

04-30-2009, 05:39 AM

What do you mean he's in Mexico? did you send it somewhere for a test?

I have good news and very bad news. the good news is that they new fish seem to be settling in. One (albino) even eated yesterday.

the bad news is that all my old fish are sick (discus plague?). They all hide in a corner with fins clampes and refuse to eat.

I did not even have to put them together, as what ever disease this is, it went from one aquarium to the other?

They were all fine on monday, then somewhere on tuesday they did not want to eat and started to hide. I checked the water and all seems fine as far as what I am able to check, ammonia and nitrite at 0.

It's been 2 days like that but no shedding of mucous, so not sure what it is.

My beautiful yellow face red melon is just floating at the top of the water with an angle and fins clamped, holding it's flippers close to the body. He looks miserable.

I had flukes before and used prazipro this weekend, but I used prazipro before without any ill effects. I even used double the dose once a month ago without any noticeable effects, so I doubt it is the prazipro that would make them all behave like that at the same time.

I put aquarium salt yesterday to see if that would help. I did one table spoon per 5 gallons.

not sure what to do next. :( As long as they are not shedding mucous I will think it's some parasites.

Can't be bacterial as they would not all be infected at the same time.

Can only be either a parasite or a virus. One trade mark of discus plague is the heavy mucous shedding, wish they don't have as of now after 2 days.

There is no such thing as the Discus plague, just to get that out there.

Eddie

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 07:39 AM

What's your ph? When was your last water change?...and what's the temp at?

Can you try a water change without using the RO?

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 07:44 AM

There is no such thing as the Discus plague, just to get that out there.

Eddie

maybe by that name but, coccal bacteria are real and can infect a nearby tank so that the inhabitants can fall sick within 3 days...

Daniella

04-30-2009, 08:26 AM

Dunno what it is or how to call it. They don't have any white mucus shedding, nor fin rot or anything like that. Just don't eat and hold fins clampes. I have seen some of them scratching against objects in the tank.

Then I am more thinking that they have parasites.

If discus plague don't exist, then what will cause the symptomes people describe as discus plague?

My PH is pretty much constant at 7.4 since I am doing so much water change each day. I change about 30 to 50% of the water each day.

temperature is 86F or 30C. Has been like that since the last 2 months.

My new import are doing better, holding their fins erected now but still not eating. I wonder how long they can go without food. They do have sunken stomach.

As for my old discus, not sure what to think of it. I put them in a QTtank to treat them with Wormer plus, that is flubendazole treatment. I think they probably still have flukes as I have seen a few scratch.

I am so sick of these flukes and prazipro don't seem to work much.

I have ordered PP and will see on a cull fish if that help.

maybe by that name but, coccal bacteria are real and can infect a nearby tank so that the inhabitants can fall sick within 3 days...

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 08:37 AM

Dunno what it is or how to call it. They don't have any white mucus shedding, nor fin rot or anything like that. Just don't eat and hold fins clampes. I have seen some of them scratching against objects in the tank.

...My PH is pretty much constant since I am doing so much water change each day. I change about 30 to 50% of the water each day.

My new import are doing better, holding their fins erected now but still not eating. I wonder how long they can go without food. They do have sunken stomach.

As for my old discus, not sure what to think of it. I put them in a QTtank to treat them with Wormer plus, that is flubendazole treatment. I think they probably still have flukes as I have seen a few scratch.

I am so sick of these flukes and prazipro don't seem to work much.

I have ordered PP and will see on a cull fish if that help.

something's not right here...Maybe because it isn't flukes, maybe something else like either bacteria or something in that water..are they breathing heavy out of one or both gills?...I'm doing some reading up for you, but without a scope we are guessing...if you can get your hands on a kids microscope even???? or a cheap one from a kids toy store will do?

I have a fish that hasn't eaten in months if that makes you feel a little better about them not eating..

Can you try a water change without using the RO unit? Where does your tap water come from?

Roxanne

Daniella

04-30-2009, 11:10 AM

Quite a few of them were breathing very fast from one gill and that is why I had put prazipro to begin with. That stopped it after a day or 2, but I can see my red melon still not comfortable. Sometime it shake its flipper and rub its eye with it too, sort of like he would want to remove something from his eye.

He also hold his flipper? (not sure what to call these swimming fin?) close to the body swimming with only one at the time or just holding both close to his body without moving them.

Your fish had not been eating for months? wow, that does make me feel better about mine but makes me sad for the poor fish. I don't think I know of any other fish that will simply stop eating like that for such long time and survive.

I did change the water without adding RO last time for the QT I have put them in. When I put them in the QT with the salt at first they seemed to perk up but that only laster a short while and they resumed they clamped fins. Do you think there could be something wrong with my brand new RO unit? I am not sure how to test a RO unit.

I do not age my tap water and put seachem prime in the aquarium when I do my water change. I empty 50% of the water, put Prime enough for the whole 120 gallon and then very slowly fill up the tank with my python.

for the QT, I take the fish out, empty it completely and put Prime for the 20 gallon as I refill it, as well as the salt.

I will try to get a microscope although I would not know what I would be looking at and I am surely not equiped to take a photo of it.

I am pretty sure they had gill and body flukes though, because of the scratching, flashing, rubbing of body with fins, twitching and breathing fast from one gill. Since putting prazipro cleared that up. That was second time I used prazipro as the flukes came back after 3 weeks. The first time it cleared the flukes in 2 hours, second time it took more than a day. Getting resistance? looks like it.

As for a bacterial infection, since there is nothing wrong on the outside, I would think it would be inside but would all fish have an internal bacterial infection at the same time? I would think this is unlikely no?

Parasites on the other end are attacking all fish at the same time why I beleive it's parasites.

They did not have white poo when they did poo.

I went home today for lunch and wow do they look awefull, about ready to die. I put all them back in to the main tank with salt and see what happen.

I saw a few of them again scratch on pots and stuff. They really have something bothering them, something resiliant.

no mucus or any other sign. They have good color too, so I am at loss as to what it is, just that I am not sure they will survive.

something's not right here...Maybe because it isn't flukes, maybe something else like either bacteria or something in that water..are they breathing heavy out of one or both gills?...I'm doing some reading up for you, but without a scope we are guessing...if you can get your hands on a kids microscope even???? or a cheap one from a kids toy store will do?

I have a fish that hasn't eaten in months if that makes you feel a little better about them not eating..

Can you try a water change without using the RO unit? Where does your tap water come from?

Roxanne

Daniella

04-30-2009, 02:58 PM

Ok things are really going downhill.

Now the fish start to get dark and are shedding mucus, so I guess they have that disease that does not exist and is called discus plague.

Not sure what to do for now.

antibiotics? tetracyclin? what's the best way to deal with discus plague?

they look horrible. Those that can get dark are all black, with some white stuff (mucus).

I don't even have PP and can't find it anywhere here in Quebec, the place really suck for medications.

Daniella

04-30-2009, 04:31 PM

It's a disease for sure, and all the symtoms fit what people refer to as discus plague. Call it what ever you want, it is the same to me.

what do you mean do I do that every day?

If it's costia, would it live at 30C???? I thought that parasite could not live at such high temp?

Even if I had a scope I would not knwo what I would be looking at and I surely don't have enough money to buy one that can take pics. I am trying to contact my vet university here as thye have a diagnosis lab. See if they can identify the culprit.

I will put quick cure ( good thing I have some) and see what happen. so far my big melon is breathing very fast from one gill and shaking up from time to time. he's definitly not comfortable at all.

Discus plague is a name people give to something they can't ID, don't have the knowledge to ID or have a scope to ID....there is no plagues.

The odds are the fish have a parasite, probably costia...it takes nothing to cross contaminate and to be honest with you I think you
've been killing these guys with kindness and now it is a problem.

Are you doing this every day????????????????

Since you can't scope go and get some Quick Cure or another product like it with Formalin and Malachite Green in it

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 05:11 PM

...thank Neptune, Graham is here!...I'm going to stay out of this now, but, good luck Daniella, I hope it all works out for you:)

...I keep my fish at 32C all the time..:confused:..they must think they live in the Carribean

Eddie

04-30-2009, 08:51 PM

maybe by that name but, coccal bacteria are real and can infect a nearby tank so that the inhabitants can fall sick within 3 days...

Again, there is no Discus Plague. It was always a disease that people couldn't pin down. Thats fine and dandy that coccal bacteria causes discus to get sick, there are tons of parasites that will cause fish to get sick within 3 days.

Eddie

Eddie

04-30-2009, 08:59 PM

maybe by that name but, coccal bacteria are real and can infect a nearby tank so that the inhabitants can fall sick within 3 days...

Here you go Roxanne, since you generally only take the word of a select number of people of which I am not one. ;)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=68839&highlight=discus+plague

Eddie

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 09:02 PM

Again, there is no Discus Plague. It was always a disease that people couldn't pin down. Thats fine and dandy that coccal bacteria causes discus to get sick, there are tons of parasites that will cause fish to get sick within 3 days.

Eddie

I didn't say there was a discus plague Eddie...don't put words in my post thanks;)

Eddie

04-30-2009, 09:03 PM

;)

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 09:12 PM

...I was just pointing out one of the possibilities and yes it has been called DP too, but I wasn't calling it that "word"...for fear of spontaneous human combustion by getting flamed by you guys....:D

TankWatcher

04-30-2009, 09:26 PM

I don't want to get "flamed" either, but here's my dictionary definition of the word plague:

1. disease affecting large numbers at the same time & causing many deaths,
2. any cause of trouble or annoyance
3. a huge number of any pests
4. to trouble in any manner; torment

So agree that there is not disease called "discus plague" but in my layman's view, if multiple tanks are being effected with many or most discus in all these tanks falling suddenly ill, I wouldn't think it wrong if someone thought of it as a plague. It may be a plague of flukes, it may be a plague of coccal bacteria or of some other parasite that they aren't able to pin point.

Anyway, that's just my two cents :)

Sorry we sidetracked this thread Daniella.

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 09:35 PM

can I add one?

5. anything that tortures the discus owner...

Have no fear, Graham is here :D

Daniella

04-30-2009, 09:47 PM

I have put some QC in, although I read that it does nothing for flukes, if it is costia, it will work.

I used it once for my neon tetras wich has ick (none of my discus got this) and I had to use 1/2 dose for them. The discus then did not mind the QC at all and it cleared the ick in 2 days.

We read so many things. I read on many web pages that costia cannot live pass 28C.

BTW, I do not use a net on my large discus, as they are very slow moving. I use a plastic container and I slowly guide them in, one by one. they don't even notice they are being moved, or bearely. I really don't like using a net as it can damage the mucus and the fins. That way, with the container, the fish is not even stressed.

The fish may seem to have a bad reaction to the QC ...this will be normal if the parasite is being killed off

Daniella

04-30-2009, 09:49 PM

thanks Roxane for all your help.

...thank Neptune, Graham is here!...I'm going to stay out of this now, but, good luck Daniella, I hope it all works out for you:)

...I keep my fish at 32C all the time..:confused:..they must think they live in the Carribean

Daniella

04-30-2009, 09:52 PM

What is the histery about using the word discus plague? is it some sort of "voldemort" type of thing?

So if discus plague is just a general name for any unidentified disease, then my discus do have discus plague as it is unidentified disease.

It's a plague anyway..I know that much.

...I was just pointing out one of the possibilities and yes it has been called DP too, but I wasn't calling it that "word"...for fear of spontaneous human combustion by getting flamed by you guys....:D

Daniella

04-30-2009, 09:54 PM

What about virus? I am sure discus can get virus too no?

the wierd thing is how really fast they do get affected. One hour they are well, the next they are all with clamped fins and hiding.

I don't want to get "flamed" either, but here's my dictionary definition of the word plague:

1. disease affecting large numbers at the same time & causing many deaths,
2. any cause of trouble or annoyance
3. a huge number of any pests
4. to trouble in any manner; torment

So agree that there is not disease called "discus plague" but in my layman's view, if multiple tanks are being effected with many or most discus in all these tanks falling suddenly ill, I wouldn't think it wrong if someone thought of it as a plague. It may be a plague of flukes, it may be a plague of coccal bacteria or of some other parasite that they aren't able to pin point.

Anyway, that's just my two cents :)

Sorry we sidetracked this thread Daniella.

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 10:04 PM

What is the histery about using the word discus plague? is it some sort of "voldemort" type of thing?
..
.

that's EXACTLY what it is Daniella! The word we must not utter... for fear of a fiery end in the forum furnace:D

..

So if discus plague is just a general name for any unidentified disease, then my discus do have discus plague as it is unidentified disease.
.

I so get what you mean...even if it is politically incorrect...:D

Disgirl

04-30-2009, 10:19 PM

Years ago I had a tank of angelfish that seemed to have what your discus have. Turned out, after many days of worry and meds. and some died, that the ammonia was very high. Any chance at all that yours could be high?
Barbara

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 10:29 PM

.....I use a plastic container and I slowly guide them in, one by one. they don't even notice they are being moved, or bearely. I really don't like using a net as it can damage the mucus and the fins. That way, with the container, the fish is not even stressed.

haha ..I do that TOO!!!:)...I think I do it more for me than them cos I'm a big chicken...I saw Robyn (TankWatcher) "catch the fish" with her hands and it was like, totally brilliant...still don't think I can do it, but very inspiring to watch...and good for future reference if i ever really HAVE to do it......dang! I should have video'd that for everybody...

Good Luck...

Roxanne

04-30-2009, 10:31 PM

...sorry Graham.,...posted over you..

TankWatcher

04-30-2009, 10:46 PM

Use the QC at full strenght with a 30%>40% water change between the 24 hour repeatsHi Graham, Is that the standard redosing rate - redosing every 24hrs with wc in between? I have a bottle of F&MG & it's directions are useless. Just says "refer to reference material" or something similar - so I have no idea what to do with it. In case I ever need to actually use it, I got the dosing rate per litre from Paul but I was never sure of the re-dosing frequency.

TankWatcher

04-30-2009, 11:08 PM

can I add one? 5. anything that tortures the discus owner... Sure can - I think we already have it covered under 4, but we could expand it include kids / husbands if that fits your description no 5 :D
What is the histery about using the word discus plague? is it some sort of "voldemort" type of thing?hahaha, sort of. I soooo get where you are coming from, calling it a plague, but I think people here just want to make sure we all understand that "Discus Plague" isn't the name of an actual disease & forums are a really quick way for rumours to spread. Like Graham says, anything can be called a plague - especially if it is one that spreads rapidy.
I saw Robyn (TankWatcher) "catch the fish" with her hands...Well, I did use the net to "catch" the discus, but it's body weight never rested on the net. As I pulled it out of the water, I put my hand underneath the net so that the fish weight was on my palm. Than I put my other hand on top of the fish & turned my hands over gently, so the fish was now fully in my hand, with no more net in between us. Then i dropped & plopped the fish (as per the recent acclimitisation thread). I don't think i could actually catch a fish in my hands without a net, unless it was already in a really confined space.

I don't think you need to do 100% wc. Do just like Graham says & change 30-40% in between med doses. Later, if you want to do 100% wc, you might ask Eddie his method. I think he takes out enough water daily, so that his discus lay on their side - but as far as I know, he doesn't remove them.

As yours are already stressed right now, i wouldn't advise 100% wc for them.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Daniella

05-01-2009, 06:26 AM

I think I test ammonia about 3 times a day :) if I detect any faintest trace of it, I do a water change.

I did spot something wierd though. The lights on my aquarium have metallic reflectors and yesterday I accently detached one and to my surprise it was sprinkled with quite a bit of rust! that's not good for the fish I am guessing, rust dripping in the aquarium from the humidity?

I removed them all and will have some made for me in inox wich does not rust. I was shocked that these rust that much since they are made to go in an aquarium.

Years ago I had a tank of angelfish that seemed to have what your discus have. Turned out, after many days of worry and meds. and some died, that the ammonia was very high. Any chance at all that yours could be high?
Barbara

Daniella

05-01-2009, 06:36 AM

A virus has no cure, so I guess anything that is caused by a virus can be called a plague. These also transmit very easily.

Of course I do not transfer them to the QT everyday, what do you think??

I only did that once and they were not stressed that much. I know my fish. What stress them right now is the disease.

Now they are back in the main aquarium and I have lowered the water volume to half to treat them. I use tetracyclin and a little bit of quick cure because I have black tetra in there.

I am still not sure what they have though, as this all started so suddendly. All at the same time more or less a few hours apart. Before I got these new fish, they were eating and fine, except for one little white butterfly that refuse to eat since I got it a month ago.

I can think of only a few things that would make all fish react at about the same time. Poison in the water, parasites or viruses. Can a bacteria affect all fish at about the same time? all of them?

Anyway if it is bacterial the tetracyclin will take care of it, but gee that's expensive.

If the flukes come back, I will have to find another treatment than prazipro.

Yes fish can get viruses and they can be deadly...angels had a herpes type virus years ago, there's also one for catfish and now koi have KHV...there's nothing mysterious about them, someone just had to take the times and ID them.

Daniella an ice cream container is less harmful to your a fish but it is just ablout every bit as stressful. If you're taking these fish each day out of the QT, in an ice cream container and then giving them 100% new water and then adding them back then that is very stressful. Especially on fish that just came into an importer, Their immune system would be way down....so instead on having peace and quiet and great water they moved around everyday.

Use the QC at full strenght with a 30%>40% water change between the 24 hour repeats

EDIT Flukes will not kill a fish quickly, and generally they don't kill the fish directly...they just allow bacteria to invade

Daniella

05-01-2009, 06:44 AM

Did you ever noticed that a discus lie quietly when it is hold in a hand? Each time I had to take a discus in my hand, I was totaly amazed that it stopped moving and resting peacefully. Maybe it's the warm from our hands?

I did not do it enough times to be sure of that but it was my impression and I saw many photograph of discus being held in a hand for photography and they were not moving at all. wierd.

Well, I did use the net to "catch" the discus, but it's body weight never rested on the net. As I pulled it out of the water, I put my hand underneath the net so that the fish weight was on my palm. Than I put my other hand on top of the fish & turned my hands over gently, so the fish was now fully in my hand, with no more net in between us. Then i dropped & plopped the fish (as per the recent acclimitisation thread). I don't think i could actually catch a fish in my hands without a net, unless it was already in a really confined space.

I don't think you need to do 100% wc. Do just like Graham says & change 30-40% in between med doses. Later, if you want to do 100% wc, you might ask Eddie his method. I think he takes out enough water daily, so that his discus lay on their side - but as far as I know, he doesn't remove them.

As yours are already stressed right now, i wouldn't advise 100% wc for them.

Good luck, keep us posted.

TankWatcher

05-01-2009, 07:18 AM

Did you ever noticed that a discus lie quietly when it is hold in a hand?Yes, I found the same thing.

Roxanne

05-01-2009, 07:21 AM

.... I use tetracyclin and a little bit of quick cure because I have black tetra in there.
....

um...Graham didn't say to use tetracycline:confused:

Use the QC at full strenght with a 30%>40% water change between the 24 hour repeats

I'm not sure you should use them together.....

Rox

Roxanne

05-01-2009, 08:24 AM

''..
Tank watcher The does for QC is one drop per gallons, with a 24 repeat, with a water change between doses and a 3 day protocol

I been waitin for this too....per how many gallons Grasshopper?

Eddie

05-01-2009, 08:26 AM

1 ml per 18 gallons or 1 teaspoon per 90 gallons. ;)

Eddie

Roxanne

05-01-2009, 08:48 AM

Thanks...Robyn & I have the same stuff...it's called "Formalin Malachite Solution" and it says 37% Formaldehyde...made by aquasonic

Roxanne

05-01-2009, 09:11 AM

..sigh...my hero:o:D

Daniella

05-01-2009, 01:25 PM

It's not about money, but about respecting life. I don't want to make other creatures suffer if I don't have too and I cannot catch these little guys as they are way to quick and I would scare the discus to death trying to catch the tetra.

Tetracyclin is very safe for the fish. Since I don't know what the fish have, I figures antibiotics would not harm them and would be a precaution for secondary infection.

I don't like putting too much quick cure because it can be toxic to fish.

Since I already had antibiotics in there I did not want to put too much of the QC just in case. I do not like to mix med either.

Is there anything that will cure costia and will be safe for the tetras?

Is it safe to use QC and tetracyclin at the same time?

The fish are about the same. No change. They have clamped fins and hold their pectoral fins close to the body, without moving them or very rarely moving them.

Strangly though, this morning they had their fins erected and seamed more relaxed.

I can see white mucus on their body. The red melon especialy. Usualy he's a bright shiny red with clear skin and I can see all the tiny scales, now it's kind of cloudy red with some white stuff.

if it's costia, I am wondering where it's coming from since I have these discus for more than a month, plus the new ones don,t have that reaction.

Did not buy any new fish or plant recently either so what gives?

so if it's a virus, can't do anything, just wait and see. If it's parasites, then QC will fix it but QC cannot fix all parasites.

If it's a bacteria, then the antibiotics will take care of it.

''...:rolleyes:Do you want to save black tetra or the discus....lets see a $1.49 or $149.00...seems like a no brainier to me. A little bit of QC is a complete waste of time.

Daniella when treating fish and you're not positive as to what it is, you start at the simplest thing, in this case it would be a possible parasite problem from the symptoms. You don't declare a tumor when all you might have is a hang nail. Bacteria would not affect fish all at once, a virus might but the symptoms don't suggest that. A poison would but where did the poison come from it was not the rust. Good luck, I hope the TC works

Tank watcher The does for QC is one drop per gallons, with a 24 repeat, with a water change between doses and a 3 day protocol

Roxanne

05-01-2009, 06:24 PM

I believe Graham's point is, who do you want to save? the discus or the others? I may be wrong, but QC in "small" doses is only going to help those parasites build resistance, a bit like taking a doctors prescription and stopping half way through. Same with half strength antibiotics. We, as hobbyists are always pushing the limits as to dosing strength, what's safe, what isn't. If you go adding half strength meds, you are going to have more problems than you solve. Graham gave you excellent advice, none of us can do any better.

Good Luck

Roxanne

Daniella

05-01-2009, 11:20 PM

I did a full dose and the tetra seem to be ok for now.

The discus however are not improving after 2 days of QC.

I turned on the light and I can see they are extremely uncomfortable and ichy. they shake, twitch, have sort of opaque white graying mucus on their body. The mucus is usuly clear. I can see little bit of mucus pealing off.

they hold their pectoral fins close to the body but they do open more the other fins.

Something is on their skin, something really ichy.

How long does QC take to work? should I see improvement by tomorrow or will it take longer?

I got PP and I am thinking of trying it on some of the less important discus.

I cannot find the dosage for short 3 minute bath though. Since I do not have a gram scale, I need to rely on mesuring teaspoon. I have precise mesuring teaspoon and that's all I can use for now, but I cannot find out what amount of water I need when using one teaspoon of PP?

I am sure that PP will solve their skin problem really fast.

I believe Graham's point is, who do you want to save? the discus or the others? I may be wrong, but QC in "small" doses is only going to help those parasites build resistance, a bit like taking a doctors prescription and stopping half way through. Same with half strength antibiotics. We, as hobbyists are always pushing the limits as to dosing strength, what's safe, what isn't. If you go adding half strength meds, you are going to have more problems than you solve. Graham gave you excellent advice, none of us can do any better.

Good Luck

Roxanne

Daniella

05-01-2009, 11:22 PM

they are not improving much. the skin peel with little smal bits of flake and there is some of it at the bottom of the aquarium.

Today all day they had full dose of QC but that does not seem to improve them much.

I believe Graham's point is, who do you want to save? the discus or the others? I may be wrong, but QC in "small" doses is only going to help those parasites build resistance, a bit like taking a doctors prescription and stopping half way through. Same with half strength antibiotics. We, as hobbyists are always pushing the limits as to dosing strength, what's safe, what isn't. If you go adding half strength meds, you are going to have more problems than you solve. Graham gave you excellent advice, none of us can do any better.

Good Luck

Roxanne

Roxanne

05-01-2009, 11:48 PM

....tetracycline is extremely irritating, mine were trying to jump out of the tank they were so irritated..but you have mixed up the meds with a bit of this and a bit of that, and now it is hard to say what is from what anymore...it's probably more about damage control now.... what exactly have you given them Daniella?

Daniella

05-02-2009, 12:00 AM

The fish had this reaction before I had anything in the tank, so I doubt it is caused by the medication but maybe it is aggravating it a bit, not sure. They started this reaction about a day or 2 after I received the new discus. The QT is near by the main tank where the old discus were. I cannot separate the 2 tanks much more because I need them to be close to the water supply.

Why did you treat with tetracyclin and how long did you use it? Did they showed improvement and what was the improvement you saw? any loss from using the med?

So far I have used tetracyclin and QC at half does. Today I did a water change and did not redose with tetracyclin, only added QC. It's been 2 days with QC and no improvement.

Tomorrow I will try PP on one of the smaller and most affected discus, that is if I can find the correct way to prepare it. I really don,t want to overdose with that. I will try the 4 hours bath. I have read many contradicting things. Like one leveled teaspoon is 7 gram, it is 18 gram and it is 8 gram. so not sure which is true? I have read that one teaspoot treat 600 gallons. hard to mesure with that.

I don't have a lot of PP so I must be carefull how I prepare my stock solution.

so if that fish improve with PP bath, I would go on with treating the others.

I bought a small microscope from toyRus and I can't see anything with that. It's just foggy and unclear, not showing anything from the water. Darn a decent microscop is way too expensive for me.

....tetracycline is extremely irritating, mine were trying to jump out of the tank they were so irritated..but you have mixed up the meds with a bit of this and a bit of that, and now it is hard to say what is from what anymore...it's probably more about damage control now.... what exactly have you given them Daniella?

Roxanne

05-02-2009, 12:55 AM

...They started this reaction about a day or 2 after I received the new discus. The QT is near by the main tank where the old discus were. I cannot separate the 2 tanks much more because I need them to be close to the water supply..

Do you use the same water change equipment IE: python, buckets etc

Why did you treat with tetracyclin and how long did you use it? Did they showed improvement and what was the improvement you saw? any loss from using the med?

I seriously wouldn't do anything other than what Graham has said for now. To throw different meds around in frantic desperation is never a good thing..like I said TC is extremely irritating and they were already irritated enough. My fish had infections that are nothing like yours, so in all sincerity I wouldn't propose to tell you to use it...

So far I have used tetracyclin and QC at half does. Today I did a water change and did not redose with tetracyclin, only added QC. It's been 2 days with QC and no improvement.

So it's been one day on QC full dose and nothing else thrown in there?

Tomorrow I will try PP on one of the smaller and most affected discus, that is if I can find the correct way to prepare it. I really don,t want to overdose with that. I will try the 4 hours bath. I have read many contradicting things. Like one leveled teaspoon is 7 gram, it is 18 gram and it is 8 gram. so not sure which is true? I have read that one teaspoot treat 600 gallons. hard to mesure with that.

I don't have a lot of PP so I must be carefull how I prepare my stock solution.

so if that fish improve with PP bath, I would go on with treating the others.

I'm not touching that one...sorry :D

I bought a small microscope from toyRus and I can't see anything with that. It's just foggy and unclear, not showing anything from the water. Darn a decent microscop is way too expensive for me.[/QUOTE]

So hard doing things by remote....I'll try...Put the scope on the smallest objective (lens)..place a hair from your own head on a slide and move the stage up & down until you see something blurry that you can focus on....don't have the light directly up or your retinas will catch on fire:D...then when you have it about right, get a small bit of poop and squish it onto a slide (carefully...they break easy) and then put it under the scope and fiddle with the focus until you get a better view...if you can't "find" it, move the slide around until you find the edge of the poop....hth...my hsbands home, supposed to be working:p....gotta go:D

Daniella

05-02-2009, 01:42 AM

so far nothing else than tetracyclin and QC.

For now there is bearely any tetracyclin left, mostly just QC.

The problem with the microscope is not that I cannot see because I cannot focus, it,s just like there is fog. I can see things like air and I have looked at a feather but it's the quality of the microscope that is the problem I guess for 48$.

Anyway I will return it and I have seen a better one here at 99$.:

http://www.maisonastronomie.ca/categories.php?lang=en&key=4&categories_key=4&suppliers_key=&position=10

I have done so much expenses since I got these discus!

Do you use the same water change equipment IE: python, buckets etc

I seriously wouldn't do anything other than what Graham has said for now. To throw different meds around in frantic desperation is never a good thing..like I said TC is extremely irritating and they were already irritated enough. My fish had infections that are nothing like yours, so in all sincerity I wouldn't propose to tell you to use it...

So it's been one day on QC full dose and nothing else thrown in there?

.

I'm not touching that one...sorry :D

So hard doing things by remote....I'll try...Put the scope on the smallest objective (lens)..place a hair from your own head on a slide and move the stage up & down until you see something blurry that you can focus on....don't have the light directly up or your retinas will catch on fire:D...then when you have it about right, get a small bit of poop and squish it onto a slide (carefully...they break easy) and then put it under the scope and fiddle with the focus until you get a better view...if you can't "find" it, move the slide around until you find the edge of the poop....hth...my hsbands home, supposed to be working:p....gotta go:D[/QUOTE]

Daniella

05-02-2009, 05:42 AM

Ok today there is no slightest sign of improvement, quite the opposite, they seem worse. This morning all had clamped fins and look miserable. I am starting to think that I am running out of time to treat them.

Any other options? Checking my last message, I have only slept 4 hours. This is as hard on me as it is on my fish :(

I just took a fish out to do a scrape and try to see something in the microscope and the fish smell horrible. I know that smell, it's the same smell as when you take a fish out of the aquarium when it had died from dropsy. Same exact smell. It's been 20 years since I had aquarium and I still remember that awfull smell. They did not smell like that before, they did not smell anything.

frenchie100

05-02-2009, 07:41 AM

So if I understand this correctly, the 4 discus that are in the 20 gallon tank are doing fine now... Your discus in the 120 gallon tank are the ones we are talking about right?

They are now back in the 120 gallon tank, with the water level down.

Are you sure tretracycline and QC can be used together? I am worried that your discus are having a reaction to the mix of meds. Even if you do a 100 % wc doesn't mean all the meds are gone. It takes a while ( sometimes days) for fish to fully metabolize meds. That's why it is usually recommended that you wait at least 48 hrs before switching meds.

Did you finish the full course of tetracycline? And it doesn't seem like your fish had the 3 days of full dose QC? Not finishing treatments is just helping any pathogen your fish may have become resistant to the meds, making it way harder to treat when needed...

Have you tested your KH? IT's not because you do 50% twice a day that your pH stays stable. If you have a low KH your pH can drop very fast. Maybe something has changed in your water supply.

The reason why I think it still might be something with your water is because if it was external parasites, usually QC gives relief, by killing the adult parasites, even if it is just temporary relief. The issue then becomes trying to get all the different life stages, but for now they should have at least gotten relief.

Also, QC reduces the amount of oxygen in the water so when treating, your temp should be between 80-82F, otherwise your fish are also suffocating... On the same note, when trying to treat a bacterial infection you should lower you temp as well because bacteria love warm water and reproduce much faster, making it harder to get rid of them. Lowering the temp, lowers their reproducing rate...

So with all that said- At this point I really think you need to back off from all the meds for a few days. Take that time to really make sure all the parameters on your water are correct: KH, GH, pH, etc...compare the readings from the tap, with that of your tank etc...

Oh course using a scope would be great. If you have a digital camera you can put it right up to the eyepiece to take pics of what you see, you can post them on here, if you need help figuring out what you are looking at.

Good luck,
-Julie

EDIT: Follow what Graham says!

Daniella

05-02-2009, 07:54 AM

yes that's what there is for now, full dose of QC.

Do you have any idea what the horrible smell is?

I can't seen anything moving under the microscope. I did see some flukes (I think) and something rond, but nothing moving.

Do a 40% water change and use the QC at full dose for the next 2 days...40% water change between each dose and no other meds in the tank and needless to say no carbon in the filter.

Make sure that NH3 and NO2 are at 0.0ppm

You need to follow trough on one protocol.

Daniella

05-02-2009, 08:00 AM

Some of the new discus (super eruption and albino) also showing sign of it now.

the fish are on day 3 of QC, second day at full dose. No more tetracycline in the water or very little if anything left. Tetracycline is inactive after some time and light deactivate it as well.

My ph is stable each time I test it, each day, at 7.4

My water has been the same since I got the discus and they were always fine with it. I am sure they have something as they stopped eating and started this really really fast, like in matter of one hour or so.

I had not do any water change when they started and after checking everything, ph and ammonia etc, everything was fine. this is always the first thing I check.

They have a disease but I am not sure what.

I will need a better scope as I can't see much with that one. I will buy one today but so far I see nothing moving and not much esle, except something that look like flukes.

So if I understand this correctly, the 4 discus that are in the 20 gallon tank are doing fine now... Your discus in the 120 gallon tank are the ones we are talking about right?

They are now back in the 120 gallon tank, with the water level down.

Are you sure tretracycline and QC can be used together? I am worried that your discus are having a reaction to the mix of meds. Even if you do a 100 % wc doesn't mean all the meds are gone. It takes a while ( sometimes days) for fish to fully metabolize meds. That's why it is usually recommended that you wait at least 48 hrs before switching meds.

Did you finish the full course of tetracycline? And it doesn't seem like your fish had the 3 days of full dose QC? Not finishing treatments is just helping any pathogen your fish may have become resistant to the meds, making it way harder to treat when needed...

Have you tested your KH? IT's not because you do 50% twice a day that your pH stays stable. If you have a low KH your pH can drop very fast. Maybe something has changed in your water supply.

The reason why I think it still might be something with your water is because if it was external parasites, usually QC gives relief, by killing the adult parasites, even if it is just temporary relief. The issue then becomes trying to get all the different life stages, but for now they should have at least gotten relief.

Also, QC reduces the amount of oxygen in the water so when treating, your temp should be between 80-82F, otherwise your fish are also suffocating... On the same note, when trying to treat a bacterial infection you should lower you temp as well because bacteria love warm water and reproduce much faster, making it harder to get rid of them. Lowering the temp, lowers their reproducing rate...

So with all that said- At this point I really think you need to back off from all the meds for a few days. Take that time to really make sure all the parameters on your water are correct: KH, GH, pH, etc...compare the readings from the tap, with that of your tank etc...

Oh course using a scope would be great. If you have a digital camera you can put it right up to the eyepiece to take pics of what you see, you can post them on here, if you need help figuring out what you are looking at.

Good luck,
-Julie

EDIT: Follow what Graham says!

Eddie

05-02-2009, 08:01 AM

Do you have any idea what the horrible smell is?

All fish smell horrible, I've never smelled a nice smelling one.

Eddie

Daniella

05-02-2009, 08:42 AM

They usualy smell near to nothing when you hold them in your hand at about 2 feet from your face. At least I never noticed a smell. They might smell but they smell like fish.

I used to go fishing (not any more) and I know pretty well the smell of fish, but this smell nothing like it. It smell like something rotting I would guess, some sort of acidic decaying smell, really really strong. So strong that it can give nausea so I was holding my breath.

All fish smell horrible, I've never smelled a nice smelling one.

Eddie

Roxanne

05-02-2009, 05:01 PM

Do a 40% water change and use the QC at full dose for the next 2 days...40% water change between each dose and no other meds in the tank and needless to say no carbon in the filter.

Make sure that NH3 and NO2 are at 0.0ppm

You need to follow trough on one protocol.

Daniella...Are you doing this? I really hope so:)...

BTW, my fish don't smell stinky Eddie....more like Chanel #5....maybe it's that stinky seafood mix you give yours..lol:D;)

Daniella

05-02-2009, 05:30 PM

Yes I am doing it, but it does not seem to help much. No change. Fish are covered with some white stuff, fins clampes.

I even saw the imprint of one pectoral fin (more white) on one fish. He is not flipping that one so the skin underneat is more white, so it leave the full imprint of the fin. wierd.

I am seriously thinking of giving a PP bath.

I rented a microscope but I cannot see anything that move (no costia at all) except maybe one or 2 things that looked like flukes but were probably way too small at 400X to be flukes.

the scope goes to 400X, so not sure that's enough? I saw some round things but they are not moving. Nothing like the little drop shape costia that move around like crazy, so not sure it is costia at all.

I have watched videos of costia at 100X and can't seen anything even remotely looking like that on my fish scrape.

maybe a bacteria?

I do large water change (50 to 60%) each day because ammonia will build up. My biofilter is pretty much down now. The new water seem to perk them up a bit.

I check ammonia and as soon as it is not the perfect color I do a water change.

they have been in worse situation than this for ammonia without any trouble since I had them when I cycled the tank 2 months and half ago. No adverse effect could be seen even when ammonia was at .25

I am doing the water change with Seachem Prime.

Daniella...Are you doing this? I really hope so:)...

BTW, my fish don't smell stinky Eddie....more like Chanel #5....maybe it's that stinky seafood mix you give yours..lol:D;)

Eddie

05-02-2009, 05:52 PM

Daniella...Are you doing this? I really hope so:)...

BTW, my fish don't smell stinky Eddie....more like Chanel #5....maybe it's that stinky seafood mix you give yours..lol:D;)

LOL, Roxanne...your fish smell like Chanel #5 huh, must be something your putting in the tank. My fish stink and any fish I ever touched stunk.....maybe it was just me that smelled. LOL

Eddie

Roxanne

05-02-2009, 06:53 PM

check these out for comparison...you can do a search on micrographia for fish parasites etc

http://www.micrographia.com

also

http://fishdoc.co.uk/video/fishmovies.htm

Eddie: there's stinky and then there's stinky lol

Daniella

05-02-2009, 08:29 PM

Ok I did another scrape on another fish and this time I saw tiny bugs moving quite fast that looked like the costia I saw at youtube.

I am wondering how come they are not dead after all that time with quick cure?

I also saw 2 flukes but they looked dead.

Costia seem to be quite resistant? How long does it take to cure because the fish are suffering pretty much. They go crazy and want to scratch on anything they find.

I prepared a PP base solution. I went to the drug store and they weighted one gram for me, I added this to one liter of RO/DI water. So now I have my base solution at 1000mg/liter.

I think if they don't feel better tomorrow I will do a 4 hour PP treatment. Watching them closely during all that time. What do you think?

Also I read that formalin can be absorbed by the fish if it has any wound? What about the little scrape that I did on the mucus? can this be enough to let the formalin poison the fish?

Thanks for the links Roxanne, very informative! Costia pretty much look like what I saw.

check these out for comparison...you can do a search on micrographia for fish parasites etc

http://www.micrographia.com

also

http://fishdoc.co.uk/video/fishmovies.htm

Eddie: there's stinky and then there's stinky lol

Daniella

05-03-2009, 04:49 AM

Ok my fish are really going down hill.

My red melon is starting to look very weak, can't keep its balance and is obviously dying.

I found him tail standing this morning and he is NOT doing well at all, the smell is horrible.

I don't think that Qc is doing him any good so I guess I will give them PP batch for 4 hours and then resume Tetracycline.

I don't think I have any more choice now because none are improving a bit after 2 days of QC full dose, quite the opposite, they look really distress.

I think they have very bad side effects of QC. I never used full dose on them and that does not look good at all. My red melon is really weak and dying. they all have horrible smell like a fish dead with dropsy. This smell so strong that all my aquarium now stink. This smell is far from normal as my aquarium usualy smell good.

My red melon is now floating at the surface on its side, dying.

If I manage to save any, I think I will sell everything, aquarium etc. This is way too hard on me as I have not slept more than 3 hours for the past week and I am starting to have dizzy spell. Discus are too prone to disease. None of the tetra are sick, only the discus, all of them.

TankWatcher

05-03-2009, 06:11 AM

Oh, Daniella, I am so sorry you & your fish are going through all this. I have no new advice to give you, just to let you know that I understand your pain & feel for you.

Daniella

05-03-2009, 06:29 AM

This is in deed painful. The poor fish is floating at the water surface, just dying.

it was an nice quality fish, with very nice yellow face and very bright red color. so sad, I am crying all I can cry for now.

Look like QC did more harm than good. They all look pretty bad.

I am going to try one last thing (desperate thing) I will try PP at this point as the fish is just dying.

But my PP does not seem right. I see no color at all when I use 2 drop of a 1gr/liter solution. I don't want to add more than that as it is the correct dosage, but I am wondering why I cannot see the pink color at that concentration in a white container of 2 gallons of water.

My other fish need help, very fast too.

I have removed them from QC and put them back in antibiotics.

I think my last resort now is PP bath and tetracycline.

Oh, Daniella, I am so sorry you & your fish are going through all this. I have no new advice to give you, just to let you know that I understand your pain & feel for you.

Roxanne

05-03-2009, 09:15 AM

How very confusing...I have read back through this thread and this is how I see it Daniella....I'll surely be flamed in the fiery furnace if I overstep my boundaries...

You had some discus to start with...you obviously have had "fluke" issues before because you spoke of PP getting rid of them back there, or more like you couldn't get rid of them......you bought fish and QT'd them in a 20gal...then you added another fish to that..a fish from another country, that was stressed from shipping, sat in the importers tank and then into your QT with 2 others.. ...then, yours get sick, tank by tank...you were WC ing probably too much, if your filters were cycled, you wouldn't be showing ammonia making it necessary to do a WC anyway...you probably shared equipment around, splashed water around, and have transferred crap all over the place, then you start moving them around from tank to tank.......you added half strength medicines that were doomed to fail, and if anything, gave all the bad crap a chance to get at the fish...their immune systems were low from the get go, and now...if they do survive it will be a big surprise considering your descriptions...

When you are advised to dose medicines a certain way, you can't go messing around with it...you threw half strength anti biotics at sick fish, and you were more worried about FMG(QC) being toxic to fish...it's very hard to help Daniella, a few people have tried....if you mess with the protocol you have been given freely, by an expert in fish diseases and medications(Graham), then there is nothing I can offer you personally...except support because I'm sure what you are going through is distressing...if there was anything wrong with any of those fish to start with, and there was, correct QT procedures would have limited the chance of any of the others falling ill....it's a hard lesson to learn.

I hope they survive.

Daniella

05-03-2009, 09:41 AM

I only dosed half strength at the beginning and not for very long. After I dosed with full dose of QC and that had been with the fish for 3 days without any affect it seems.

I never used PP. I had used Prazipro before but that was many weeks ago and the med was long gone.

I did not share equipement nor splash all over the place, so that's not the case here, so not sure how it crossed over. I did not share tank either. When I put the old fish in the QT it was another tank, not the same the new fish were in.

Anyway, QC does not seem to work at all with any of the fish, should I keep up with this treatment? Or use PP on them and try to save the others?

I did not have ammonia. I check that 3 times a day. I was doing water change because I had to remove the antibiotics treatment I initialy put. I did not do water change after that but I seriously doubt that a water change can kill them if it is with the same parameter and PH.

I am doing water change 25% to 30% on regular basis because I was told that it is good for discus to have lots of water change. Help them grow.

You got the story a bit wrong here. I had my old fish, and everything was fine with them. They were eating well and were in perfect health. The red melon was eating from my hand.

I got 3 new fish and put them in a 20gallon QT. They were showing sign of stress but did not look sick really, just clamped fins, but the super eruption could not keep its balance and had clamped fins. The guy who sold them to me said to add a bit of aquarium salt wich I did.

Then a few days after I received my new fish, the old ones started also to have clamped fins. Then it went downhill from there with white mucus covering them.

I was told to put tetracycline by my local petshop guy who is taking care of the discus there. He's supposed to have knowledge and that is why I had tetracyclin to begin with.

Then I was told by Graham to put QC, but since I had antibiotic in there I did not want to add full dose of QC. I did a 50% water change and added half dose of QC.

then I did another 50% water change and added full dose of QC and antibiotics was pretty much gone. I lelf that for 2 days and today is the third day. I find my fish are still covered with white mucus and my red melon foating.

Now how there was cross contamination, I have no clue. I did not share equipement and I always wash my hands with antibacterial dishwashing soap before I put my hand in any of the aquarium.

I surely did not slapsh water all over the place but the 120 gallons is much higher and it has a full cover on it. why are assuming way too many things that are false. Instead of assuming, maybe you should ask first?

I knwo for sure that what ever they have came with the new fish, I am just not sure how to save them now so instead of focusing on the mistake I made, how about finding a solution to save the rest?

How very confusing...I have read back through this thread and this is how I see it Daniella....I'll surely be flamed in the fiery furnace if I overstep my boundaries...

You had some discus to start with...you obviously have had "fluke" issues before because you spoke of PP getting rid of them back there, or more like you couldn't get rid of them......you bought fish and QT'd them in a 20gal...then you added another fish to that..a fish from another country, that was stressed from shipping, sat in the importers tank and then into your QT with 2 others.. ...then, yours get sick, tank by tank...you were WC ing probably too much, if your filters were cycled, you wouldn't be showing ammonia making it necessary to do a WC anyway...you probably shared equipment around, splashed water around, and have transferred crap all over the place, then you start moving them around from tank to tank.......you added half strength medicines that were doomed to fail, and if anything, gave all the bad crap a chance to get at the fish...their immune systems were low from the get go, and now...if they do survive it will be a big surprise considering your descriptions...

When you are advised to dose medicines a certain way, you can't go messing around with it...you threw half strength anti biotics at sick fish, and you were more worried about FMG(QC) being toxic to fish...it's very hard to help Daniella, a few people have tried....if you mess with the protocol you have been given freely, by an expert in fish diseases and medications(Graham), then there is nothing I can offer you personally...except support because I'm sure what you are going through is distressing...if there was anything wrong with any of those fish to start with, and there was, correct QT procedures would have limited the chance of any of the others falling ill....it's a hard lesson to learn.

I hope they survive.

Roxanne

05-03-2009, 10:12 AM

traversediscus

05-03-2009, 10:22 AM

I do get the feeling you can't help some people:antlers:

Daniella

05-03-2009, 10:35 AM

yes except today I did not.

have you repeated the full dose every 24 hours?

Daniella

05-03-2009, 10:40 AM

rude? you think I was rude? I thought you were extremely rude with your wrong assumptions and accusations when you know nothing of what I did.

I guess this is not going to get me anywhere. I do not need this type of dicussion right now as I have more important things to work out.

I did not mention the person giving me advise on tetracycline because I forgot. Surely it was sold to me by someone so I thought that was obvious but most also not important to mention as it does not change a thing in my fish life.

I do water change on regular basis, not for ammonia but when I cycled my thank I did have trace of it so I was doing water change for that reason. Now the reasons are different but I find the water change have always been good for my fish. It's not the water change that are killing them now.

Also you are confusing things. I do water change on regular basis for the QT as this one is not cycled, it's just a QT with a small filter so water change are necessary. Now my 120 gallons is cycled and I do regular water change on that one because it was told many times that it is good for them.

I started this thread for the new fish in a 20 gallon QT and finished it with the 120 gallons with old fish and a cycled tank so my reason for water change are different for both aquarium.

hel-lo...I/anyone can read what you wrote so there is no room for misinterpretation....

1. RE: PP, that was my bad, you used prazipro...and?

2.You didn't mention anything about the LFS giving you anti biotics until 2 days ago...when I questioned what you were doing with the anti biotics.

3. You said above that if you see a trace of ammonia you do a water change, then you said you have no ammonia....?

4. I ain't touching that last line...except to say...how rude:p...I guess you are smart enough to work it out for yourself...

Roxanne

Daniella

05-03-2009, 10:49 AM

that one surely wins for the helpfull factor..thanks a lot.

I do get the feeling you can't help some people:antlers:

traversediscus

05-03-2009, 10:50 AM

that one surely wins for the helpfull factor..thanks a lot.

You're welcome

TankWatcher

05-03-2009, 12:02 PM

I do water change on regular basis for the QT as this one is not cycled, it's just a QT with a small filter so water change are necessary. Hi Daniella, I don't mean to 'cause offence when I say this, as I can see that you are feeling fragile ATM. Placing new discus, who are already stressed from transport into an uncycled tank isn't the best. So that next time you get new fish you will have an already cycled filter for them, pop an extra sponge filter into a healthy cycled tank & leave it running. That way, whenever you need to start up a fresh QT tank, you are prepared. At the same time as you put the new fish in their QT, transfer the cycled sponge filter across & you shouldn't have any ammonia issues in your QT.

Wahter

05-03-2009, 12:43 PM

Daniella - in an earlier post you said something along the lines of "if it's bacteria, the tetracycline will handle it". That's not entirely correct - just like in the human world, there are many antibiotic resistant bacteria in the aquarium world. Plus, different antibiotics are used for different bacteria. That said, some people have had success on treating fish with swim bladder issues using tetracycline, but it would appear that your fish now have some other issues beyond the balance issue (which sounds to me more like what many new discus have when they arrive).

Have you checked with the importer to see if the other fish which were in the same group have become ill as well? I think it was a mistake to get fish which have literally just arrived in from overseas so soon without letting them settle for at least couple of weeks. (that trip even bothers us humans!). If I buy LFS fish, I do NOT get them the day they arrive at the store (especially something like cardinal tetras - too high of a mortality rate).

Graham is right, if it's Costia, (Ichthyobodo) or Chilodonella, Quick Cure should wipe it (and some other protozoans) out in a few days if treated according to the directions.

If you go from a formalin+malachite green treatment straight to a potassium permanganate dip, that is really hard on any fish.

Can you take one of the ill fish into the veterinary school you mentioned for a necropsy? If the fish is near death anyway, what they find may save the rest of your fish.

Some parasites can go dormant or are tolerated by healthy fish and only rear their ugly head when the fish are stressed. Did you move anything (water, filter, etc...) from your existing tank into your tank with the new fish while setting it up?

Just some ideas.

Walter

Daniella

05-03-2009, 02:16 PM

thanks for the help. I did transfer part of my existing filter to the QT but that did not help. I think it's because the bioload with 3 large discus was way too much for a 20 gallon tank. I did not know that before.

I agree that it was crazy for the importer to sell them right away and I guess he wanted to get rid of them as soon as possible to avoid loss on his hands. I called him many times but of course not returning my call.

I don't know what to do but I surely don't want to resume the QC treatment after finding the fish dying and floating on its side at the water surface. I removed it, put it and put it in Tetracycline this morning. After 2 hours he was still floating, and I thought he was dead. He was floating on its side, with the other side exposed to air. It was that bad. I took it, I figured I had nothing to lose at that point...put it in PP bath for 3 minutes and return it to the tank with Tetracycline. I go at the computer for about one hour and to my surprised when I returned to the tank, he was swiming doing much better. At first he was just slowing moving around and bouncing back to the surface floating again like some invisible something was pulling him back at the surface. He could not stay at the bottom at all and was head standing all the way to the surface and then rolling on its side again. It was like he was drunk. Then about 15 minutes later he was swiming and now he seems normal.

He even flip with both flippers now and before he was holding his pectoral fins always tight to the body, only moving one when absolutely necessary.

So what's next? I guess I will leave it in tetracycline and continue the remaining 2 other treatment of PP one each day.

I am not sure if it is the PP bath or the tetracycline that cured his floating and loss of balance though, but in doubt I will continue what I am doing since it revived him. In fact, he now look better than all the rest. He still has whitish skin, but the best sign for me is the flipping from both pectoral fins. He's not out of the jungle yet I realise and I will have to make sure what ever they have is gone.

My guess is that he was intolerant to QC and was slowly dying being poisoned. can't think of anything else why he ended up near death.

Daniella - in an earlier post you said something along the lines of "if it's bacteria, the tetracycline will handle it". That's not entirely correct - just like in the human world, there are many antibiotic resistant bacteria in the aquarium world. Plus, different antibiotics are used for different bacteria. That said, some people have had success on treating fish with swim bladder issues using tetracycline, but it would appear that your fish now have some other issues beyond the balance issue (which sounds to me more like what many new discus have when they arrive).

Have you checked with the importer to see if the other fish which were in the same group have become ill as well? I think it was a mistake to get fish which have literally just arrived in from overseas so soon without letting them settle for at least couple of weeks. (that trip even bothers us humans!). If I buy LFS fish, I do NOT get them the day they arrive at the store (especially something like cardinal tetras - too high of a mortality rate).

Graham is right, if it's Costia, (Ichthyobodo) or Chilodonella, Quick Cure should wipe it (and some other protozoans) out in a few days if treated according to the directions.

If you go from a formalin+malachite green treatment straight to a potassium permanganate dip, that is really hard on any fish.

Can you take one of the ill fish into the veterinary school you mentioned for a necropsy? If the fish is near death anyway, what they find may save the rest of your fish.

Some parasites can go dormant or are tolerated by healthy fish and only rear their ugly head when the fish are stressed. Did you move anything (water, filter, etc...) from your existing tank into your tank with the new fish while setting it up?

Just some ideas.

Walter

frenchie100

05-03-2009, 09:04 PM

TankWatcher

05-03-2009, 09:30 PM

Hi Daniella

I have QT'd 3-4 adult discus in a 20G, where I transferred across a fully cycled filter, so it's unusual that your cycled filter showed traces of ammonia. I know that size is not ideal on a long term basis, but for a QT you can get away with it. 50% wc (not 100%) should take care of things & not allow ammonia to get to a detectable level.

Using PP after a med containing formalin can be a deadly combination. It's not recommended. Believe me, I made this mistake before I knew better with immediate fatal results (death within 30 mins).

Just another thought, are you using straight RO for your QT or a mix of RO & tap water? If only RO, are you adding the essential elements back into the RO?

Definitely, everyone was only trying to help Daniella. They became a little frustrated, because, IMHO, they started to feel that panic was taking over & their advice wasn't being followed.

I hope you save the fish, but I don't think there is much more advice that can help at this stage. Graham is very knowlegable, so I really would follow his advice. Keep in mind he said earlier that the FM&G may make the fish seem worse before they seem better (or at least I am practically sure that he said something similar to that). Sometimes, there is nothing you can do to save a fish, no matter how hard you try, but do always try to avoid chopping & changing mid stream with medications. All courses of medication must be followed through to the completion of recommended course.

Pls don't take offence, as I don't mean any. Just trying to help - if not for these fish, but for future ones.

Best of luck.

Daniella

05-03-2009, 10:26 PM

Well, the only thing I know is that my fish was in QC and it was dying, floating on it's side. the next thing I know is that I put him in tetracycline and give him a PP bath and that totaly revived him.

I have no clue why it was dying in QC, but there was no improvement, not the slighest bit after 3 days. In fact it was going downhill. I did follow the dosage of 2 drops per gallon.

My deduction is only based on my observation. I have no way to know for sure but this is my best guess.

If you have a better explanation then lets hear it?

I checked and there was no ammonia. temp was at 82 with filtration and a 6 inches curtain of bubble. He was not breathing fast, in fact he was breathing slowly and was totaly lethargic. when I toutched it, it tried to go down but was immediatly pulled up like a balloon, out of balance.

He's now flipping with both pectoral fins, looking very relaxed, with fins erected.

Tomorrow I will continue with the PP bath but will do a 2ppm bath for 4 hours in the main tank to make sure all the bugs in there are gone. I did not do a 3 minutes bath for all of them, only for the melon. For the others I did 2 minutes only. The melon seem to be the one doing best out of the lot.

Dosage I used was 10mg per liter.

If that's not the correct dosage then please tell me what is.

''...My guess is that he was intolerant to QC and was slowly dying being poisoned. can't think of anything else why he ended up near death. ...''

Daniella I can assure you that the QC had no poisioning affect on your fish...Yes, fish will react differently to different meds/chems. If you followed the dosing instructions as listed on the bottle then there should have been no ill affects from the QC....you're guessing based on no knowledge...never a good thing.

You've been in panic mode with these fish since you got them...why they are still alive under this kind of care is beyond me....!

I don't even think that you have an idea of the ppm that you're dosing with the PP ...As Walter mentioned, PP can push a weak fish over the edge...

Anyway, good luck I hope that you can save them................

G

Daniella

05-03-2009, 10:48 PM

I did not transfer over a fully cycled filter but I bought a new filter and took some matter from my existing filter. You probably can get away with it if you have a good size cycled filter.

If you had death with PP within 30 minutes than I guess I am ok because my fish seem to be doing ok.

Maybe that's because I removed it from the formalin a few hours before I did the PP bath? I actualy did the PP back because the fish was dying and I figured I had nothing to lose at the point.

Like I said, I don't know what revived him, the PP, the tetracycline or simple removing him from the QC, but it worked.

I did not put PP in water where there was formaline! I used pure RO/DI water to do the dip, nothing else. There was absolutely no trace of anything but pure water and PP.

For my QT I am using 1/3 tap and 2/3 RO. for the dip I only used RO.

I know MOST people were trying to help, but it does not mean that was the best way to go with my fish.

Recently I was put on iron pills. Every single person told me I needed to take only one pill at the begining because I would have terrible constipation. The doctor told me, the pharmacist told me and many nurses told me as well as people around me.

guess what? On me it is doing the total opposite effect. go figure. Nobody can say for sure that something is going to do exactly this or that on each individual.

Some people can eat peanut butter, some will die if they do.

With my fish, if a treatment does not work and things are going further downhill, I check for another solution, especialy if a fish is floating and dying. I think that right there is a big clue.

errr...."Keep in mind he said earlier that the FM&G may make the fish seem worse before they seem better.'

HOW WORSE??? I would say that a fish floating verticaly on the water surface with half of its body exposed to air drying and totaly lethargic is pretty much worse.

If I would not have removed it from that med it would have died soon. I just cought it on time.

I just hope that he'll not have lasting side effects.

Lets face it, this is pretty toxic if it can kill tetra at full concentration.

Nobody can deny this.

No offense taken. Your post was far from rude, as oppose to some other here.

Hi Daniella

I have QT'd 3-4 adult discus in a 20G, where I transferred across a fully cycled filter, so it's unusual that your cycled filter showed traces of ammonia. I know that size is not ideal on a long term basis, but for a QT you can get away with it. 50% wc (not 100%) should take care of things & not allow ammonia to get to a detectable level.

Using PP after a med containing formalin can be a deadly combination. It's not recommended. Believe me, I made this mistake before I knew better with immediate fatal results (death within 30 mins).

Just another thought, are you using straight RO for your QT or a mix of RO & tap water? If only RO, are you adding the essential elements back into the RO?

Definitely, everyone was only trying to help Daniella. They became a little frustrated, because, IMHO, they started to feel that panic was taking over & their advice wasn't being followed.

I hope you save the fish, but I don't think there is much more advice that can help at this stage. Graham is very knowlegable, so I really would follow his advice. Keep in mind he said earlier that the FM&G may make the fish seem worse before they seem better (or at least I am practically sure that he said something similar to that). Sometimes, there is nothing you can do to save a fish, no matter how hard you try, but do always try to avoid chopping & changing mid stream with medications. All courses of medication must be followed through to the completion of recommended course.

Pls don't take offence, as I don't mean any. Just trying to help - if not for these fish, but for future ones.

Best of luck.

Daniella

05-04-2009, 08:34 AM

yes it's a mistype. I was using 1 drop per 2 gallons at first and then for the last 3 days I was using 1 drop per gallon. I followed the direction on the bottle and yes that is API Quick Cure.

Can it be that it was not exactly 24 hours and the new dose builded up over the last one? here they say that one drop per gallon is too much:

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/whitespot.php

I don't think I will use QC to full dose again. That was too scary. when I used it for ick when my tetras had ick, I used it half dose and was doing 40% water change between dose. My fish were fine and the ick cleared in 2 days.

I have also read that if it is put in the fridg it can become toxic. I have never put any of my med in the fridg but here in Quebec it can be really cold and I have no clue if it never became cold during transportation. Is there a sure way to know if the product is safe and had not turned to something toxic?

the other fish were not affected that way. This only hapened to one fish and my best fish. He's doing pretty good now. No more clamped fins and he does not hold his pectoral fins tight to the body and swim with both normaly.

His slime coat start to look better too. He's just not eating yet but I guess with the tetracycline in the tank that's understandable.

I am doing one more day of tetracycline and will slowly remove it with water change. I will move them to a QT to do a 4 hours bath with PP so that there is no medication in that tank and just PP. I will not treat the fish that received a bath already just in case that would be too much for them.

So far I only gave a PP bath to 4 fish out of 10. Those that seamed more affected. Some of them seem better like the red melon but some look like they will need another bath as they still hold their pectoral fins close to the body.

''...I have no clue why it was dying in QC, but there was no improvement, not the slighest bit after 3 days. In fact it was going downhill. I did follow the dosage of 2 drops per gallon....''

Daniella where you using AP Pro Quick Cure? Did you add 2 drops per gallon or is this a mis print?

Eddie

05-04-2009, 08:42 AM

I've never had adverse reactions with AP Quick Cure and I've used double the dose recommended. Different things to take into consideration are PH, temperature and the addition of air. You need to add more air to the tank when using QC.

Eddie

Daniella

05-05-2009, 09:29 AM

how much more air do I need? I had 2 filters, one canister and one HOT, plus a 6 inch air stone, all this in a 20 gallons.

Ph at 7.4 and temp to 82. Also only one fish was near death..the 2 others were not.

I have spoken to a fish vet and supposably that it is dangerous to use these products if there is some gill damage. So far the fish is doing good, no more clamped fins and no more holding flippers close to the body but he's kind of breathing fast, like twice the speed, from both gills. I did not give him another PP bath.

Not sure what medication is safe if there is gill damage, not to further damage things.

Here are some cue:

--------------------------

Malachite green and formalin are toxic poisons

Malachite green acts as a respiratory poison, damaging the cell’s ability to produce energy to drive vital metabolic processes.

---------------------------

You used QC at double the dose??? wow..I think my fish would be dead by now if I had.

I've never had adverse reactions with AP Quick Cure and I've used double the dose recommended. Different things to take into consideration are PH, temperature and the addition of air. You need to add more air to the tank when using QC.

Eddie

Eddie

05-05-2009, 07:34 PM

how much more air do I need? I had 2 filters, one canister and one HOT, plus a 6 inch air stone, all this in a 20 gallons.

Ph at 7.4 and temp to 82. Also only one fish was near death..the 2 others were not.

I have spoken to a fish vet and supposably that it is dangerous to use these products if there is some gill damage. So far the fish is doing good, no more clamped fins and no more holding flippers close to the body but he's kind of breathing fast, like twice the speed, from both gills. I did not give him another PP bath.

Not sure what medication is safe if there is gill damage, not to further damage things.

Here are some cue:

--------------------------

Malachite green and formalin are toxic poisons

Malachite green acts as a respiratory poison, damaging the cell’s ability to produce energy to drive vital metabolic processes.

---------------------------

You used QC at double the dose??? wow..I think my fish would be dead by now if I had.

Yeah Daniella, you must have weak fish. The double dose of QC was done for 3 days on 3 tanks full of fish. Not a rapid gill beat in any of the fish. All fish ate and acted like love birds. LOL

Although I do not recommend doing that, it is not as hard you are describing. I don't want people thinking they can't use the med because of a one off instance that could have been from a large number of things, not just F&MG.

Eddie

TankWatcher

05-05-2009, 09:09 PM

Daniella, I think you mentioned you weren't sure if the FM&G was kept at the right temp during transport. That could be a factor as well, as it is toxic for fish when stored at temps that are too low.

Daniella

05-06-2009, 09:22 AM

The fish does not breath fast because of the PP bath but because of the parasites. anyway he's brathing ok now but he's started to hold one of his pectoral fins close to the body again so he will need another treatment. I did a 4 hours treatment yesterday but not to that fish, to the others. It was really beneficial but it only lasted for 2 hours before the PP went brown. I will have to do another one as some of them still have scratching.

After the bath, some that had clamped fins and non moving pectoral returned to normal. Some seems more infested than others.

My smallest one 2 1/2" was breathing really fast before the treatment and this morning he was breathing normaly.

I think some of the fish might be more sensitive to formaline or malachite green. If it was oxygen depravation that nearly killed my fish, then the other would have suffered equaly. No oxygen in the water will affect all fish, not just one.

Anyway, I am finaly starting to see improvement with the PP bath. It was interesting to see as I could see my 2 white butterfly gradualy unclamp their fins as the treatment was going on. I had not seen them this beautiful in a week.

I understand that one can burn the fish if not carefull but after so many days of QC and NO IMPROVEMENT AT ALL, and after seing the fish improve after only one hour in PP bath, I can only doubt the efficiency of QC for what my fish had. Not sure if it is bacterial or parasite, but I only see improvement with the PP.

Not a single fish was doing better after 4 days of QC. Not a single one, not a bit of improvement. That's all I can say.

You missed one :)

Malachite Green is known to be a carcinogen in California...

Daniella cautions like what you posted can be applied to just about any drug or chemical that we use...they are all poisions or toxic to some degree, especially if we abused them.

Formalin shouldn't be used if there are open ulcers as the cells then have no protection and since it emblaming fluid.............

PP has killed more fish that F&MG ever has. It's an oxidizer and it really doesn't care what organic it oxidizes. I think that you used 10ppm as a dip and now the fish is breathing fast......... no surprise there

All these chems use O2 and lots of it and each it affected to some degree by pH, GH and temp.

I'd suggest that you talk some more to your Fish Vet

Daniella

05-06-2009, 09:26 AM

It could be and that would explain why the fish ended up near death.

Since there is no way to know for sure, then I feel it is not safe to use that product at normal dose. I used it at 1 drop per 2 gallons without problem once.

I wish I could explain what hapened to the fish but I don't know. It was very scary though.

AS for oxygen, I cannot beleive that in a 20 gallon tank, with an air pump, temp at 82 and 2 filters, that there was a lack of oxygen. I don't beleive that one bit, especialy that other 2 fish were not gasping for air.

The fish was not breathing fast either, he was breathing extremely slowly.

If it was a lack of oxygen, he would have been gasping and breathing fast, all of them would have.

Daniella, I think you mentioned you weren't sure if the FM&G was kept at the right temp during transport. That could be a factor as well, as it is toxic for fish when stored at temps that are too low.

TankWatcher

05-06-2009, 10:17 AM

Formalin should be stored above 39.2°F to prevent formation of paraformaldehyde precipitation, which is highly toxic to fish. If maintained at room temp, you are safe. Someone here told me that if in doubt, simply note the coloration. If cloudy, discard. This is important, too - if you see any white percipitant in the bottom of the container, discard. It is now toxic

Daniella

05-06-2009, 11:06 AM

hmm pretty hard to tell if it is cloudy since the bottle only do little drop at the time.

Because of that you cannot see in the bottom or in the bottle.

I will waste a few drop to check if it is cloudy though a transparent clear bottle.

I read a lot about these med and it is clear that some fish are more affected by the med than other.

What is clear is that after 4 days of QC, 3 days at full dose, there was no improvement. Should'nt I have seen some improvement at least? it did not kill the parasites if that was parasites.

how long should one go and let the fish go downhill before changing med?

Also how long will it take for the white patches to disapear?

Formalin should be stored above 39.2°F to prevent formation of paraformaldehyde precipitation, which is highly toxic to fish. If maintained at room temp, you are safe. Someone here told me that if in doubt, simply note the coloration. If cloudy, discard. This is important, too - if you see any white percipitant in the bottom of the container, discard. It is now toxic

TankWatcher

05-06-2009, 11:18 AM

Andrew Soh (author & discus expert) told me that I should have waited a week in between formalin & PP treatment.

It all seems to be working out for you now and I'm glad about that. I hope your fish continue to improve.

But no matter what, I gave my discus no chance. I didn't know about the temperature thing & I stored my FM&G in the fridge. I don't blame the FM&G for the deaths, it was the mistakes I made when I used it & the PP. Not saying you made any mistake, just saying that in my case I did and the FM&G was not at fault. The only blame I point toward the med is that the manufacturer should have put a warning on the bottle about correct temperature storage.

Owl

05-06-2009, 01:59 PM

I can never understand people that buy fish from an unquarantined source in the first place.

Daniella

05-06-2009, 02:19 PM

first you have to know that here nobody do such thing and the importer sell the fish right away, after a day or 2.

If I would wait for an importer to give proper quanrantine, I would not buy any fish.

Beside, if I order fish online myself, they won't have any quarantine and I will be the one doing it.

I bought fish before that way without problem, but this was a person from whom I bought for the first time, and for the last time beleive me.

I can never understand people that buy fish from an unquarantined source in the first place.

Daniella

05-06-2009, 02:24 PM

so your fish died from the QC being bad, not from the PP bath, right?

I have read many times that you cannot mix PP and formaline as it will produce toxic substance.

It's a very tought thing to clear. My fish seem revived and open all their fins after the PP bath but about 12 hours later they start to clamp fins again. After the bath they seem relaxed and releived, but it come back. They only had one bath so far though.

Seems that it will take a few shots to kill those things. I am going to do something drastic tonight. Wack my main aquarium, filters included (darn the cycle) and make sure that I am not returning my clean fish into a broth of costia or what ever they have.

For anyone who used QC to cure costia, how long did you have to wait to see any bit of improvement?

some of them have started to eat today. Strangly, it is those that seem most affected that have eated.

Andrew Soh (author & discus expert) told me that I should have waited a week in between formalin & PP treatment.

It all seems to be working out for you now and I'm glad about that. I hope your fish continue to improve.

But no matter what, I gave my discus no chance. I didn't know about the temperature thing & I stored my FM&G in the fridge. I don't blame the FM&G for the deaths, it was the mistakes I made when I used it & the PP. Not saying you made any mistake, just saying that in my case I did and the FM&G was not at fault. The only blame I point toward the med is that the manufacturer should have put a warning on the bottle about correct temperature storage.

TankWatcher

05-06-2009, 02:32 PM

I can never understand people that buy fish from an unquarantined source in the first place.
Sorry Owl, but I can't understand people who consider fish bought from anyone as being quarantined - no matter how trusted the source. IMHO, Quarantine should always be done by the hobbyist, in their home in a dedicated QT tank, with dedicated buckets, vacs, etc. All of my discus are in QT for at least 6-8 weeks, then a "hero" fish joins them for at least another 4 weeks before they go anywhere near existing stock.

I am not sure who you were referring to, but my 2 fish that died were ones that never made it out of QT.

Daniella also QT'd her new fish. Somehow cross contamination seems to have occurred, but she did QT.

Daniella

05-06-2009, 02:55 PM

In deed. And I realize that now it is very hard to totaly isolate 2 aquarium in the same room. I read that costia can survive to be dried and it seems like a very tough thing to kill if it resist drying.

Maybe I had some on my hand and since my hands were dry I did not pay much attention and touched the other aquarium. I can't remember because I was not aware of all this. I usualy wash my hands with antibacterial dish soap before touching the aquarium water though so I would be surprised if it would have survived this wash but you never know. Maybe I did not wash all the way to the elbow or something like that.

I did not share anything, bucket or else so I am still wondering how it got there. Maybe the fish did not have flukes but they had costia to being with and I was treating with prazipro for nothing?? maybe they had a bit of costia but it was under control and then bang...not sure.

All the new fish were in QT but the old one started to look sick first, so if it is costia, I would think that the new one with all the stress would have started first. If it is a virus or a bacteria, then it would be understandable that it crossed over maybe with humidity.

The only way to be sure is to sacrifice one fish to the science. 125$ for a full diagnostic but I cannot convince myself to kill one.

Next time I will have new fish, I will treat with PP baths just in case.

Did you manage to kill the flukes with your treatments of PP?

When I did my PP treatment, it lasted only 2 hours and turned brown. I am wondering if I should add another dose to continue the full 4 hours?

This is probably why it returned after sometime, I need to do more baths. They really look and act better after a bath so it is obvious that it help them or else they would act miserable after the bath.

I need to make sure my main aquarium is wiped out with PP so that nothing await the fish to their return. I will wak it with 10ppm tonight, no fish in it of course.

Sorry Owl, but I can't understand people who consider fish bought from anyone as being quarantined - no matter how trusted the source. IMHO, Quarantine should always be done by the hobbyist, in their home in a dedicated QT tank, with dedicated buckets, vacs, etc. All of my discus are in QT for at least 6-8 weeks, then a "hero" fish joins them for at least another 4 weeks before they go anywhere near existing stock.

I am not sure who you were referring to, but my 2 fish that died were ones that never made it out of QT.

Daniella also QT'd her new fish. Somehow cross contamination seems to have occurred, but she did QT.

TankWatcher

05-06-2009, 04:09 PM

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67955
Yes, the PP seemed to cure them of flukes. This is my thread on PP. Might help.

Daniella

05-07-2009, 08:16 AM

Good to know it took care of the flukes. I read that it is not advised to do more than one treatment per week but of course with costia one does not have the luxury of waiting a week. I did the second treatment yesterday and that one lasted for full 4 hours and wow, what a difference! The white patches on the fish have nearly all disapear and they look so much better after that second treatment.

I waked the main aquarium with a few grammes of PP to the point where I could not see through. I left that for one hour then removed all water and refilled with clean RO and tap mix. So I returned them in a clean parasite-free aquarium after their treatment.

I went to see a breeder yesterday and reserved 2 new fish. He is keeping them for me until I fix my problem. He once dropped by accident PP powder in his main 220 gallons tank and lost one of his fish. A hudge one. 2 fish were most affected and the most affected survived. On that one, the tail fell off and half of its dorsal fin melted away. Amazingly the fish did a full recovery, and I was very surprise to see it yesterday in full health, full color, breathing normaly. No gill damage it seem and that is totaly amazing. I am not sure how long ago that hapened, but I think it was a year or 2 ago.

The fish recovery capability is amazing. He said the tail grew back in just a week or so. It had totaly fell off.

Good thing I do not work with powder but with a stock solution! and that I know about ways to neutrilize it in emergency.

Anyway, I am thinking that it is safe to use PP for at least 4 treatment 4 days in row?

do I need a 5th treatment to be sure? On the last treatment day I will again wak my tank with load of PP and make sure I return the fish in a very clean and parasite-free tank. I will have to regrow my biofilter though but that's not a big deal for me. I want a parasite-free environment.

After the PP treatment in the main tank, the water is so pure and clean. No more organic waste. I did not want to bypass my filter in fear of letting some bad bug through.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67955
Yes, the PP seemed to cure them of flukes. This is my thread on PP. Might help.

TankWatcher

05-07-2009, 08:53 AM

Anyway, I am thinking that it is safe to use PP for at least 4 treatment 4 days in row?
I don't know if that often is safe or not. When treating for gill flukes, I retreated the tank every 3rd day. In total there were 5 PP baths.

After every PP bath, after the PP was neutralised and wc, I added 1tspn salt per 40L for a long term bath for healing.

Daniella

05-07-2009, 12:29 PM

So every 3 days is safe then (2 days rest), not what I read about no more than one treatment per week.

I don't know if anyone did it each day. And I wonder if skipping a day or 2 will just bring back the costia really strong?

This is probably why PP is not recommanded for costia by some? I read so many conflicting things about PP and costia. Some say it's best method, some say better use something else like formaline.

I know that in koi pound, they put the stuff each day for 4 days at least and some use it every 2 weeks as a preventive but people with pound know and use PP more often than aquarium people who seem to be more wary of it.

Also from the experience of the breedeer that I went to see yesterday, fish can recover from very severe degree of PP burn.

Mine stil had their slime coat after the 4 hours bath, although it seemed like there was less of the white stuff.

I don't know if that often is safe or not. When treating for gill flukes, I retreated the tank every 3rd day. In total there were 5 PP baths.

After every PP bath, after the PP was neutralised and wc, I added 1tspn salt per 40L for a long term bath for healing.

Daniella

05-10-2009, 09:45 AM

Problem is, most discus don,t have a week to spare when sick.

Do you know what exactly killed your discus? was it because QC was bad? because you stored it in the fridg? or was it because you used it after PP?

I can understand that using PP might leave patch of skin exposed, so the Formalin can enter the blood stream through there and through the gill?? is that what it does?

In that case, using formalin is quite dangerous and using QC is even more dangerous since we have no way to know how it was stored, nor the cloudiness since it is tinted by the MG.

NO way to see if there is precipitate at the bottom either since it is so dark in there.

My fish are doing much better but now some of them (2) are scratching since yesterday. I don't know if it is the healing (like it inch when a wound heal) or if they still have parasites.

When this all started, they never scratched. They went clamped fins and went hiding in a corner not moving much, then they were covered with thick whitish mucus in patches.

Now my fish are eating well but they still have a thin grayish film in patch on the skin and some are scratching. It's hard to see it and I only see it when I look at them from an angle to the light. If I look straight at them they look perfect and I cannot see any more white patch.

Not sure if I should continue the PP bath or not.

I was thinking of finishing with a 2 hours formalin bath but I cannot do that after PP treatment. One week I feel is too much to wait and the bugs could take over again. tough call. Most are improving and have started to eat. The one that is scratching a lot is eating very well and does not have clamped fins at all, so I am wondering if it is just resulting ich from the healing?

I guess the only way to be sure is to scrape. I have a rent a scope again and see.

I wonder if salt bath could help after PP or in between?

On last resort, I was thinking of putting a little bit of H2O2 applied with a soft tissu to the patches. I know some people do this with good results but it must be stressfull for the fish.

Yesterday I did another PP treatment and I feel I should have done it the day before as well (skipped a day). Right after putting them back in the main tank, they eated right away so I guess these treatment does not stress them too much.

I am so tired of all this. Can't get much sleep lately and it seems hard to see the end of the misery. They improve but slowly, very slowly.

Andrew Soh (author & discus expert) told me that I should have waited a week in between formalin & PP treatment.

It all seems to be working out for you now and I'm glad about that. I hope your fish continue to improve.

But no matter what, I gave my discus no chance. I didn't know about the temperature thing & I stored my FM&G in the fridge. I don't blame the FM&G for the deaths, it was the mistakes I made when I used it & the PP. Not saying you made any mistake, just saying that in my case I did and the FM&G was not at fault. The only blame I point toward the med is that the manufacturer should have put a warning on the bottle about correct temperature storage.

poconogal

05-10-2009, 10:03 AM

Daniella, I have a friend whose Discus developed what sounds a lot like what yours have. It started when she received a large Discus by Fed Ex with about 1 tbsp. of water left in the bag (he lived, BTW) and her horrid experience went on for several weeks. What happened was that she accidently broke QT and her show tank and the new fish ended up with clamped fins, were covered in that whitish/gray patchy film, including the fins, and began shedding tons of mucuous. They also stopped eating and ended up looking like skeletons with scales. She did salt baths, twice a day, which did help a lot but not entirely, and she had to do at least 2 WCs a day, there was so much mucuous coating everything. She then switched to Quick Cure along with Maracyn 2 because the Discus then developed a secondary baterial infection (had red streaks in the fins). By day 2 of the QC and M2, her fish started to eat again and were looking much better. She had 10 and lost 5 before the QC. The remaining 5 took quite awhile to regain lost weight, but they are still swimming in her tank today. One is now 8 years old.

TankWatcher

05-10-2009, 10:26 AM

Hi Daniella

I really do think FM&G is a good medicine Daniella. Too many people here, who are really knowledgeable, all recommend it. They can't all be wrong. I know I made a few mistakes with it's use - the major one being incorrect temperature storage of the FM&G - that was a definite killer. But my 2nd mistake of using the Formalin straight after PP may also have been enough to be fatal in it's own right. Andrew Soh told me I should have waited a week. I can't really say anymore on that, as I'm far from an expert and this is all now beyond my experience (not having dealt with costia or the grey film patches you speak of). I can only say I was personally advised to wait a week.

I do think you should use salt after the PP treatment - I do. It will help with any healing that might be needed.

Not saying it will be so for you, as circumstances are different in all cases, but often I find there is time. In my experience, I've found disease in discus doesn't move all that fast. Especially if they are eating, I take that as a sign that there is time.

The people that helped me with PP and the articles I read recommended the frequency I used. It was for flukes though, not costia. My frequency of PP baths was to try & match the hatching cycle of the fluke eggs.

I am so tired of all this. Can't get much sleep lately and it seems hard to see the end of the misery. They improve but slowly, very slowly.I'm sorry this is giving you such a hard time. I wish I had better knowledge & advice to offer Daniella. Can only say what has (or hasn't) worked for me in the past.

Daniella

05-10-2009, 08:22 PM

interesting. Mine did not shed tons of mucus but they have white mucus patches.

My fish did not improve one bit after 4 days of QC either, 3 days at full dose.

It's only with permanganate potassium bath that I have started to see improvement and that was almost immediate improvement.

What I am wondering though is if I dose my PP strong enough because I did what I thought was quite a big dose of PP on my plants yesterday and left it there all night. To my surprise there are plenty of creepy crawly left when I look under the microscope!!! what does it take to kill them?!

So I am not sure that the dose I use for my dicsus is strong enough.

Same thing with my main tank. I dosed something like 50ppm in my main tank. I could not see though it. It did knock down my biofilter but today I took some floss from it and wow..many things living in there even after 3 hours of very strong PP!!?? I could see some little things that looked like toads, and one that looked like a caterpillar and also many round worms.

what the heck?? They should have been killed by this massive dose of PP I thought.

Daniella, I have a friend whose Discus developed what sounds a lot like what yours have. It started when she received a large Discus by Fed Ex with about 1 tbsp. of water left in the bag (he lived, BTW) and her horrid experience went on for several weeks. What happened was that she accidently broke QT and her show tank and the new fish ended up with clamped fins, were covered in that whitish/gray patchy film, including the fins, and began shedding tons of mucuous. They also stopped eating and ended up looking like skeletons with scales. She did salt baths, twice a day, which did help a lot but not entirely, and she had to do at least 2 WCs a day, there was so much mucuous coating everything. She then switched to Quick Cure along with Maracyn 2 because the Discus then developed a secondary baterial infection (had red streaks in the fins). By day 2 of the QC and M2, her fish started to eat again and were looking much better. She had 10 and lost 5 before the QC. The remaining 5 took quite awhile to regain lost weight, but they are still swimming in her tank today. One is now 8 years old.

Daniella

05-10-2009, 08:31 PM

I am sure that QC is a good medicine however I think it might not be strong enough for what I have.

I tried finding formaline with no success here. Not at the pharmacie, not even at the vet.

The problem with QC is that I have tried it without success, so should I submit my fish to it again? or keep up with the PP bath that really made a difference?

As for the QC, does it really take that long to produce some effect? wereas the effect of PP bath was almost immediate?

For exemple, one of my smaller pigeon looked pretty bad yesterday and hald clamped fins (no PP bath for 2 days), but after the 3 hours PP bath it was unclamping fins and eated today and has no unclamped fins.

I did a scrape on 2 of them, those that look like still sick, but I could not find what looks like costia. I did see some little bugs sort of moving fast erraticaly but they are way smaller than what I see for costia at 400X. Also costia seem to be moving in and out of the view as they move fast and cover lots of ground, but what I saw was remaining in the view. It was not moving far from its position and looked so much smaller.

In your case, we really don't if what killed your fish was bad QC or combinaison of QC and PP bath. It's uncertain.

What scare me from QC is that I have no way to know if it is good or bad. You can't tell because the bottle is closed and it's too dark to tell.

Your fish were dead after 30 minutes of putting QC. Must have been really nerve wreaking. I know the feeling and it's not a good one!

If one die, I will definitly bring it to the vet faculty and have a biopsy on it, so that I know exactly what I am dealling with here. So far no dead fish, which is surprising as they really looked bad.

What my fish have could be bacterial, could be a virus, could be anything. This could explain why the PP baths are doing good and the QC did not. It is not sure that it is costia at all.

They might have had a few costia, but that does not mean it was what really damaged them that way.

Hi Daniella

I really do think FM&G is a good medicine Daniella. Too many people here, who are really knowledgeable, all recommend it. They can't all be wrong. I know I made a few mistakes with it's use - the major one being incorrect temperature storage of the FM&G - that was a definite killer. But my 2nd mistake of using the Formalin straight after PP may also have been enough to be fatal in it's own right. Andrew Soh told me I should have waited a week. I can't really say anymore on that, as I'm far from an expert and this is all now beyond my experience (not having dealt with costia or the grey film patches you speak of). I can only say I was personally advised to wait a week.

I do think you should use salt after the PP treatment - I do. It will help with any healing that might be needed.

Not saying it will be so for you, as circumstances are different in all cases, but often I find there is time. In my experience, I've found disease in discus doesn't move all that fast. Especially if they are eating, I take that as a sign that there is time.

The people that helped me with PP and the articles I read recommended the frequency I used. It was for flukes though, not costia. My frequency of PP baths was to try & match the hatching cycle of the fluke eggs.
I'm sorry this is giving you such a hard time. I wish I had better knowledge & advice to offer Daniella. Can only say what has (or hasn't) worked for me in the past.

TankWatcher

05-10-2009, 11:24 PM

Your fish were dead after 30 minutes of putting QC. Must have been really nerve wreaking. I know the feeling and it's not a good one!I was devastated, racked with guilt & cried like a baby. It was a lesson learned, that I will never forget.

SriAngel

05-11-2009, 12:57 AM

I just got a very beautiful super eruption about 6 inches large discus yesterday and I have put it with 3 others that I got at the same time in a QT and they all seem to be ok except the super eruption can't seem to keep its balance. It swim and than rather fall on a side and get back up and than fall again on a side.

What's wrong with it? will it die and what can I do to help it? salt? There is no ammonia in the water. The water is changed everyday with conditioned tap water with Seachem Prime. temperature is 30C.

It's only that fish and can this be a bacterial infection? swimm bladder problem? what else? I paid a lot of money for that fish so I really don't want to lose it.

thanks

Hi Daniella,

I had a very similar experience last week. I got a shipment of Wayne NG fish direct from Hong Kong. All fish seemed okay except for one large albino platinum. He was floating on top of the bag as i opened it. He continued to struggle to swim, sometimes headstanding, and at other times floating on top. I immediately called Wayne Ng, and he suggested i put the fish back in the bag, reoxygenate, and then float the bag upright in the tank for 12 to 24 hours. The working hypothesis, is that the swim bladder was malformed by the pressurization, depressurization, or the jarring as the fish was transported. The purpose of the rebaggin was to stablize the swim bladder and offer a higher concentration of oxygen to the fish, as wayne said, like putting an oxygen mask on the patient. I thought it was a little bizarre, but 24 hours later the fish swam out of the bag and went about its business as if nothing happened. I dont know if it will work for you as much time has passed, but im sure it will hurt less than taxing the fish's liver with meds when it is already in a compromised state.

HTH,
Angel