why change water so often?

[mic_x]

I've been seeing that its recommended to do water changes daily of 50% or at least 30% three times a week. I've been doing 30% every two weeks for my discus they seem fine< so why do more water changes?

[rickztahone]

I've been seeing that its recommended to do water changes daily of 50% or at least 30% three times a week. I've been doing 30% every two weeks for my discus they seem fine< so why do more water changes?

they may seem to be doing great but you are not getting the potential out of your discus that you would with doing either daily or every other day water changes. WC's go hand in hand with your feeding regimen. you need to feed many times a day (at least 3x's) which in turn fouls the water quickly. this leads to a polluted water column and a WC needs to be done. you are probably getting along well because you are not feeding enough and thus need less water changes but like i said, the more you feed the more you need to change water. this is a highly debated subject btw so take it with a grain of salt my friend

[Eddie]

I've been seeing that its recommended to do water changes daily of 50% or at least 30% three times a week. I've been doing 30% every two weeks for my discus they seem fine< so why do more water changes?

Just to add, alot depends on the age of your fish, how many fish and tank size.

If your fish are young and doing fine, they will be doing fine at that same size forever but the fishes eyes will grow. You'll notice in time, its all down to time. ;)

Eddie

[KDodds]

Water changes are a means of diluting or removing pollutants that can effect the growth rate and health of your fish. If you have other means of exporting these nutrients, water change percentage and frequency can be lessened or halted entirely, no matter the age/size of the fish. There's a very fine line there though, especially in FW tanks where skimmers do not work well enough to be effective and ozonizers are generally an unknown piece of equipment. I am, and have been, running "natural" tanks for 30 years with minimal to no water changes, including my current discus tank. By all accounts so far, my discus are growing at an average rate of gain that is the preference of breeders. So, it's possible to minimize water changes, but you REALLY need to know what you're doing, and not be afraid (or too lazy) to change IF necessary. The (much) easier route, for most, is to just do the changes.

[Don Trinko]

You will get a lot of opinions abought WC ranging from 100% or more a day to 20% a month or less.
Search for "water change" or "wc".
For the record I change 50% twice a week. My fish have grown to my satisfaction. I have one that is 7" , many from 5" to 6" and a few runts.
clean water is effected by the bioload (discus per g of water) what and how much you feed, age of fish, planted, gravel, etc.
Everyone agrees that discus need clean water. What it takes to get clean water is the contraversy. Don T.

[seanyuki]

I totally agree with the people above....water quality/feedings/health are the most important factors in keeping discus.


Cheers
Francis:)

[Eddie]

You will get a lot of opinions abought WC ranging from 100% or more a day to 20% a month or less.
Search for "water change" or "wc".
For the record I change 50% twice a week. My fish have grown to my satisfaction. I have one that is 7" , many from 5" to 6" and a few runts.
clean water is effected by the bioload (discus per g of water) what and how much you feed, age of fish, planted, gravel, etc.
Everyone agrees that discus need clean water. What it takes to get clean water is the contraversy. Don T.

The 2nd Simply discus challenge will be "where the rubber meets the road".

The person who feeds the most nutritious food often and changes the most water daily will win, hands down. Hopefully Don or KD can get in on this with their theory of what it is.....just a theory.

;)

[Eddie]

Here is a quote from Al that you will find very important in the future of how you will decide to raise your fish.


Water changes may have attained some religious status among discus keepers.. but even myths are based in facts if you dig deep enough...and though it may be a myth to some that frequent water changes are necessary to raise big, healthy , well developed discus....its a fact that water changes remove accumulated waste, decrease parasite numbers, allow for intensive feedings associated with good Growth and developement of Discus.. How much to change varies depending on tanks, equipment, water parameters, and hobbyists goals and experiences. My biggest problem with when people say that water changes aren't needed is that the hobbyists new to all this usually wind up paying the price when they follow that line of thinking as "advised"... Doing water changes isn't a guarantee that you'll raise great fish...but it really helps as a starting point by removing variables that more experienced Hobbyists take for granted, IMO.

So theres my 2 Cents on water changes and discus....and yes..I change water here.

hth,
al...doing water changes as I type

Hopefully Al doesn't mind me adding this quote. :)

Eddie

[DiscusOnly]

I look at WC as a form of prevention. There is a formula to the frequency of WC based on a few variables. One must come up with their version of the WC formula and WC is a MUST. I don't look at WC for the reason of growth but rather for the fish health. Healthy young small discus will become healthy big discus in no time. A person may argue that though their discus may not grow as big as someone who feed more often and WC, they may feel that they are every bit as successful since they didn't have to do as much work.

My take on the whole WC issue is to sit a watch your discus a bit and learn their behavior. Are they active, friendly and come up to the tank so that you can pet with your hands? Whatever it takes, just make sure they are healthy and don't end up in the sick/disease section.

[silent_thunder]

A good question...

My thoughts AFTER I got a few discus and reading here about how often to do water changes was....OH GREAT...

However, lastnight I finally pulled out the big hose and hooked her to the facet and BiNgO...no more buckets for me...though I did have water every where LOL...

I will do as these folks do...I have seen the results by looking at some of their fish...

Oh...time to go do some wather changes on 6 tanks that are not discus tanks LOL

I will probably have to by a wet vac...<mumbles>

Good luck however you do it...

Daniel

[poconogal]

Well, let's put it this way -- if you do the WCs you keep the Discus healthy. Fall down on WCs and they will eventually get sick. It won't happen right away, it can take several months, but it is guaranteed -- they WILL get sick. A breeder I've bought fish from says that a minimum 50% WC once a week should be done, twice a week would be better as a minimum, of course depending on your tank load. :) Hand in hand with WCs are filter cleaning and thorough vaccuming of substrate as well. Changing tons of water doesn't do much if your filter is loaded with filth for months. May not be in the tank but its still in the water.

For the record, I do two to three 50% WCs a week, and that has worked to keep my fish healthy and happy. When I fell down on WCs due to an extremely demanding job, after several months, yes, they got sick.

[Jhhnn]

One of the things that novice discus keepers need to do is set up is a systematic way to change water, a way to make it relatively easy. Otherwise, we all have a tendency to slack off, leading to even more trouble than changing water.

I have a 120 gal tank, in my study on the ground level. actual water capacity is ~105 gallons. I have 2 drain systems- one into the municipal sewer, and another into a greywater system for the yard. I have the tank marked halfway, which is the capacity of my aging barrel in the basement, which has a pump, air source, heater and fill pipes hooked up all the time. After I siphon off half the water, cleaning the tank bottom as I do so, I unplug the heater in the barrel, check the temp, and start the pump- the hose runs permanently to the tank, so I don't even have to pay attention at this point. It's impossible to overfill or burn out the pump. While the tank level is low, I occasionally clean the sponge filters or the intake sponge for the cannister filter. When I notice the tank is full again, I go to the basement, unplug the pump, add prime, fill the barrel, plug in the heater.

Easy-peasy, and it takes 45 min. max. With a bigger drain siphon and more powerful pump, that could be 30 min...

[machine77]

this is all true i must add.. lots of people look at water changes as alot of work, maybe to much work for them, but think about how you do your wc.. its about working smarter not harder.. after buckets and buckets of water changes i have simplified it to this.. i have a 15ft long hose which i stick inside the tank, have the bottom of the hose at the half way mark on my tank, i suck on it to get the water flow coming, it empties onto the grass in my front yard, it will eventually stop draining once the water level in the tank gets to the bottom of the hose, i vacum while this is going on, then set up my two 35g rubbermaid trash cans(brand new) and fill them up with water from my garden hose, i add just a few galllons of hot water to each to bring the temp up, by this time my tank is half empty, i treat the water in the trash cans and pump from there into my tank. and by the time im done putting everything away my tank is full aqain. this is my way of doing 70g water changes, 3 times a week on my 125g/gravel bottom and planted show tank in my living room. and it only takes me about 35 minutes max! scrubbing down the inside of glass add another 10 minutes lol... hope it was alittle helpfull.

[Eddie]

I look at WC as a form of prevention. There is a formula to the frequency of WC based on a few variables. One must come up with their version of the WC formula and WC is a MUST. I don't look at WC for the reason of growth but rather for the fish health. Healthy young small discus will become healthy big discus in no time. A person may argue that though their discus may not grow as big as someone who feed more often and WC, they may feel that they are every bit as successful since they didn't have to do as much work.

My take on the whole WC issue is to sit a watch your discus a bit and learn their behavior. Are they active, friendly and come up to the tank so that you can pet with your hands? Whatever it takes, just make sure they are healthy and don't end up in the sick/disease section.

Agree 100%, if something is off with your fish....a water change will most likely bring them back around. ;)

Eddie

[Don Trinko]

I think most of us started with buckets for wc. Now I have heated storage barrells and pumps. As previously mentioned I have inter changable tubes
(1/2" pvc) So i put in a different tube depending on how much water I want to syphon out. I can not syphon to much because it looses the syphon action when the water gets to low.
For refilling I have a pump and hose. I modified a basement water alarm to hang over the edge of the tank. If I get distracted the alarm tells me that the tank is full before it overflows.

Many feel that you can not get the maximum size and quality without large daily wc. A well known breeder /dealer / disease expert told me that 20% a week was a minimum for adult fish. I started with 2 25% wc per week. My goal was to keep the nitrates near 5. As the fish grew I gradualy increased the wc to keep the nitrates near 5. It ended up at 50% twice a week. (1 discus per 10g of water bioload)
If your a breeder and you have 50 small fish in a 55g tank you probably do need large daily wc but If your have 6 or 7 near adults in a 75g you probably do not need daily wc. All of this IMO. Don T.

[Eddie]

I think most of us started with buckets for wc. Now I have heated storage barrells and pumps. As previously mentioned I have inter changable tubes
(1/2" pvc) So i put in a different tube depending on how much water I want to syphon out. I can not syphon to much because it looses the syphon action when the water gets to low.
For refilling I have a pump and hose. I modified a basement water alarm to hang over the edge of the tank. If I get distracted the alarm tells me that the tank is full before it overflows.

Many feel that you can not get the maximum size and quality without large daily wc. A well known breeder /dealer / disease expert told me that 20% a week was a minimum for adult fish. I started with 2 25% wc per week. My goal was to keep the nitrates near 5. As the fish grew I gradualy increased the wc to keep the nitrates near 5. It ended up at 50% twice a week. (1 discus per 10g of water bioload)
If your a breeder and you have 50 small fish in a 55g tank you probably do need large daily wc but If your have 6 or 7 near adults in a 75g you probably do not need daily wc. All of this IMO. Don T.

Very true DT, Adults need far less WCs and even then it depends on the tank size.

Many have their own ways of doing things and find what works best for them.

[Ed13]

Why change water so often?

Easy unless with remove 100% of the tanks water, waste will accumulate over time
Mathematically explained in this article on the Simplydiscus library by Ralph Cote, no myths no theories



...If W is the total daily waste output by all the fish in the tank, and WC% is the percent of tank volume that is changed daily:

The waste in the tank on the evening (after a WC) of the first day = W(1-WC%)

Waste in the tank after second day (after WC) = W(1-WC%) + W(1-WC%)(1-WC%)

Waste on third evening = W(1-WC%) + W(1-WC%)(1-WC%) + W(1-WC%)(1-WC%)(1-WC%)

Etc., etc.


In English it means the fish are constantly putting out waste and it is being partially removed every evening with the water change, so the waste builds up over time. It is shaped like a learning curve where it is steep at first then gradually levels out to a nearly constant amount (the time to level out (flattening of the curve) varies with the WC% but is around one week for most of our situations). The actual curve if done by hours would actually form a sawtooth pattern but still in the general form of a learning curve.

Since the formula is a geometric series, the eventual amount of constant waste can be found using a simple formula:

S = a/(1-r) where "S" is the sum of the series (the eventual amount of waste in the tank), "a" is the initial starting value (a = 1 - WC%), and "r" is the ratio between successive terms (r = 1 - WC%).

So, if you are doing a 50% water change every evening: S = .5 / (1 - .5) = 1.


In other words, after about 5 days, you have approximately 1 day of waste in the tank at all times (it builds up during the day to almost 2 days of waste right before the water change).


A 33% water change gives you about 2 days worth of waste as a constant.
A 25% WC gives you about 3 days of waste.
A 10% WC gives you about 9 days of waste
A 1 - 2% WC (10% every week) gives you around 75 days of waste! ...
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/wc_formula.shtml

[Eddie]

Why change water so often?

Easy unless with remove 100% of the tanks water, waste will accumulate over time
Mathematically explained in this article on the Simplydiscus library by Ralph Cote, no myths no theories

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/water_chemistry/general/wc_formula.shtml

Woohoo! Ed is representing up in here. Thats what I'm talking about ;)

Eddie

[Tito]

Mic X...

What you will find out...oh wait...let me not make that really silly mistake of thinking you are new to fish because you have one post.

So...what you will find out if you haven't by now - is that there are a million answers to every fish question you may have in forums. Many people in fish forums really want to help - many just have nothing better to do - like me right now.

Changing water has everything to do with how messy you are or how not so messy you are - everyone here knows full well that the more you feed - the more of a mess you make out of your tank. If you are trying to grow your discus as fast as a rocket launches then you will feed like there is no end. If your fish are full grown you will feed far far less.

With that being said - you will also find out that no tank is the same and no hobbyist keeps fish the same. What may work for me may not work for you. I have learned my lessons on keeping my water clean but those may not necessarily work for you. You asked a very subjective question with a million answers.

Discus need clean water huh, well guess what, so do many other fish. Salt-water fish need clean water, African Tanganyikan fish need clean water and so do hundreds of others. Clean water is really common sense. So the water changes all depend on drum roll please......


YOU! LOL

Depending on how you work your tank - will depend on how you need to change your water.

Here is something basic that I hope you know about: Nitrates - this is a byproduct of waste in the tank - it cannot be removed on its own. You will either need a lot of plants to make use of it or do water changes to remove it.

[Eddie]

Discus take in just as much nutrients from water as they do from food. ;)


Eddie

[Ed13]

Don't forget about unmeasurable dissolved organic compounds, even with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrates and very few nitrates you COULD have better water quality;)

[seanyuki]

I have 9 tanks but love to do water changes daily....but not enough hot water.lol....so every alternate days 70% water change still works for me....less feeding less pollutions lol.....why so much feedings:confused:..... pump them out for show/profits .....I am just a hobbyist....drank too much this afternoon.

Cheers
Francis:)

[Eddie]

I have 9 tanks but love to do water changes daily....but not enough hot water.lol....so every alternate days 70% water change still works for me....less feeding less pollutions lol.....why so much feedings:confused:..... pump them out for show/profits .....I am just a hobbyist....drank too much this afternoon.

Cheers
Francis:)

Hey there Francis, I pump mine up because I can and the fish have the potential. Forrest's fish are superb and now I have a nice group of Wayne's fish to pump up. :D

Eddie

[seanyuki]

Nice Eddie

:D

Cheers
Francis:)




Hey there Francis, I pump mine up because I can and the fish have the potential. Forrest's fish are superb and now I have a nice group of Wayne's fish to pump up. :D

Eddie

[hedut]

I change my water daily 75% to 80% all my tanks even my 90gln tanks has 2 aqua clear 110 plus and Xp3. My discus they love when I change the water , they like dancing with the new water, did any body see like that to and your discus? The answer is WHY people need drink water? :D:D:D:D:D:D

hendri

[DiscusOnly]

Francis,

I have similiar issues of not enough hot water. Have you tried cranking the water heater to the highest setting about 1 hour before WC and turn it back down afterward?

I really want one of those instant hot water unit as a 2nd unit.

Van

[seanyuki]

Hi Van,


Toooo lazy to adjust every heater b4 W/C......need to consider a 1200 gallons storage tank for water changes....these are 400 gallons tanks that fits the doorway.

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu111/aiseanyuki_2009/7db15af8571bec7cf891d5199cd52f86.jpg


Cheers
Francis:)

[Disgirl]

Water changes are a means of diluting or removing pollutants that can effect the growth rate and health of your fish. If you have other means of exporting these nutrients, water change percentage and frequency can be lessened or halted entirely, no matter the age/size of the fish. There's a very fine line there though, especially in FW tanks where skimmers do not work well enough to be effective and ozonizers are generally an unknown piece of equipment. I am, and have been, running "natural" tanks for 30 years with minimal to no water changes, including my current discus tank. By all accounts so far, my discus are growing at an average rate of gain that is the preference of breeders. So, it's possible to minimize water changes, but you REALLY need to know what you're doing, and not be afraid (or too lazy) to change IF necessary. The (much) easier route, for most, is to just do the changes.

I have read this thread with great interest, being new to the large wc on discus scene. IT WORKS! I have never had such healthy discus before, now that I do a 50%wc every day. They are still young and I feed heavily. But I just have to ask KDodds to explain briefly what the natural tank is and how he can get by with minimal to no wc's. I am very curious about this. Thanks
Barbara

[Eddie]

I have read this thread with great interest, being new to the large wc on discus scene. IT WORKS! I have never had such healthy discus before, now that I do a 50%wc every day. They are still young and I feed heavily. But I just have to ask KDodds to explain briefly what the natural tank is and how he can get by with minimal to no wc's. I am very curious about this. Thanks
Barbara

Trust me Barbara....we all are.


Eddie

[AquatiCreations]

I think as stated before in the thread "True Water Quality" we cannot feasibly replicate the discus's natural habitat,there are too many species,and too many factors that contribute to the dicus's water quality, that cannot be emulated.

[DiscusOnly]

I love to see pictures of the KDodds setup. I've seen automated WC system and I think it's a good idea but it is not for me since it's I like to "feel close" with my Discus everyday. Having a tank setup that doesn't require water change is intriguing.

[seanyuki]

Me too....with auto changes brings you further away to the discus...I love to do each tank individually so I could monitor their health/growth...waking up 4 am is no joke to do W/C...lol.....The love for discus.


Cheers
Francis:)


I love to see pictures of the KDodds setup. I've seen automated WC system and I think it's a good idea but it is not for me since it's I like to "feel close" with my Discus everyday. Having a tank setup that doesn't require water change is intriguing.

[Eddie]

Me too....with auto changes brings you further away to the discus...I love to do each tank individually so I could monitor their health/growth...waking up 4 am is no joke to do W/C...lol.....The love for discus.


Cheers
Francis:)

Ditto on what Francis and Van said, the time spent with them is great! The time, effort and care pay off.

Eddie

[Scribbles]

We have such low water pressure that it takes 25 minutes to fill my 60 gal. tank for a 90% wc. So every once in a while when I have a busy day I grumble as I get out all the buckets. Once I start cleaning and see how filthy the tank is though I start doing all the extra chores like scrubbing all of the wood or cleaning the filter and hoses and I'm happy that they have a clean "house". There's nothing like watching happy healthy discus growing in your tank and knowing that it is due to all of your hard work.:)

Chris

[Eddie]

We have such low water pressure that it takes 25 minutes to fill my 60 gal. tank for a 90% wc. So every once in a while when I have a busy day I grumble as I get out all the buckets. Once I start cleaning and see how filthy the tank is though I start doing all the extra chores like scrubbing all of the wood or cleaning the filter and hoses and I'm happy that they have a clean "house". There's nothing like watching happy healthy discus growing in your tank and knowing that it is due to all of your hard work.:)

Chris


Hey Chris, is the pressure bad at all faucets? Why don't you fill a storage container with water and then do water changes with a pump. At least this way you could do other things when you want and when its TANK time, its just fast and easy.

Eddie

[Don Trinko]

Well ; I said earlier that you would get a lot of opinions. I'm sure that these methods work to the satisfaction of those who use them. Most of the people who answered your post have posted many times before and many already knew what type of answer they would give.
I have no doubt that 100% a day wc works just fine but I think that many are discuraged from keeping discus because of it.
IMO; You can raise healthy large discus with 2 or 3 35% to 50% wc a week. I'm not saying you can put 50 fry in a 40g tank and do this and I'm not saying you can put 10 2.5" discus in a 55g and do this and if you feed alot and don't clean up the extra food it will not work.
There are enough people on both sides of this discussion to make me believe that both work. Don T.
P.S. With the present emphasis on "green" I would not be surprized if some cities restrict water usage in the future. What are you going to do then?

[Eddie]

P.S. With the present emphasis on "green" I would not be surprized if some cities restrict water usage in the future. What are you going to do then?

Move to Okinawa....:D

Eddie

[KDodds]

The 2nd Simply discus challenge will be "where the rubber meets the road".

The person who feeds the most nutritious food often and changes the most water daily will win, hands down. Hopefully Don or KD can get in on this with their theory of what it is.....just a theory.

;)

It absolutely would not surprise me if the guy who changes the most water and feeds the most food winds up getting the biggest fish, overall. But, then, that has to be your goal from the beginning now, doesn't it, raising big, puffy, show-type fish? Now, I'm not saying that th reverse will produce "stunted", poor quality fish, only that for a lot of people having a group of show specimens may not be the goal, or even desirable. You can absolutely still get the kind of growth that keeps a fish healthy and allows it to reach terminal size in a reasonable time frame without doing all of those water changes, that's not a theory, it's a fact I've lived with for 30 years, across dozens and dozens, if not hundreds, of species, marine and fresh.

[KDodds]

I have read this thread with great interest, being new to the large wc on discus scene. IT WORKS! I have never had such healthy discus before, now that I do a 50%wc every day. They are still young and I feed heavily. But I just have to ask KDodds to explain briefly what the natural tank is and how he can get by with minimal to no wc's. I am very curious about this. Thanks
Barbara

All a water change does is remove accumulated pollutants. Conventional filters accomplish the same task, but are inadequate in that they are selective in what they can and will remove or process. Most of us use nitrate as a guide as to how much is accumulating and how often we need to correct that. There are a number of ways to eliminate accumulated pollutants, and 100% water changes are perhaps the easiest way of eliminating virtually 100% of accumulates. The problem with these massive changes is the investment in time and effort, as well as the sheer waste of water. I'm no greenophile when it comes to water management, but I am a reasonable man, and I can't see how it can be justified to change massive amounts of water in areas where droughts are current or common, or how throwing more money at the water company can be seen as conscientious. From a marine standpoint, water is not JUST water. Every change involves (ideally) producing pure product water (usually RO/DI) and mixing in salt mix. Most marine tanks are also, on average, quite a bit larger than FW tanks. The expenditure created by massive water changes could potentially be bank breaking. So, there are more alternative solutions to water change originating from, or more popular in, the marine side of the hobby than on the FW side. However, most can be applied on both sides. Planted refugiums (or tanks where fish allow), be they higher plants or algae, are probably the single most effective and easiest way to eliminate pollutants. However, chemical media can also be employed, as well as oxidizing methods like ozonization which breaks down (kills, denatures) anything that passes through. Pollutants bound to media or within plant (or animal) biomass can be easily removed periodically, without replacing water. Another method (or really a series of methods that add up to the former) would be to employ a more complete ecosystem. This involves utilizing substrates as filtration, including but not limited to, rock, wood, and sand, as well as more diverse animal and plant life to provide for a more natural break down and complete uptake of available nutrients into biomass. Not all of what I've mentioned could be considered "natural". If you'd like to know more about natural systems, I'd suggest researching Lee Chin Eng, probably THE pioneer of natural systems.

[KDodds]

I love to see pictures of the KDodds setup. I've seen automated WC system and I think it's a good idea but it is not for me since it's I like to "feel close" with my Discus everyday. Having a tank setup that doesn't require water change is intriguing.

I wish I were even remotely good at photography... I'll see what I can do, I may have some timeline photos that more or less provide an indication of growth. But, fair warning, they'll be incredibly poor photos. I can understand the inclination to disbelieve without picture proof, certainly.

[Don Trinko]

In regard to the "discus challage" I am not a compedative person (can't spell either!) and do not intend to enter however if anyone is in the area and wants to see my fish send me a PM.
I do not claim to have the biggest fish ot the prettyest fish. I have fish for my and my familys enjoyment.
KDodds hs some good points abought salt water fish. They have their own guru's and do things different than we do. They (not all but many) cycle their tank with a dead shrimp. I questioned this method and asked why not Ammonia. I was told by several that I was a newbe and dead shrimp worked fine.
They ( again not all but many) typicaly have a refugum with a light on 24/7 and algae in the refugum. The algae grows like crazy and removes nitrates. They do wc but typicaly smalled and not as offten.
In salt water nitrates can also be removed by anerobic bacteria that develop deep in the rocks.
My Dad always said " there are more ways to kill a cat than chocking it with butter" My interpritation of this is now and has always been that there is more than one way to do things and many of them work just fine. Don T.

[Tito]

I think there are a whole bunch of good answers here - thanks for posting them.

One thing I defintely agree with - I forgot who said it. A strong opinionated group who say must do 100% WC for Discus can really send the wrong signal, wrong info to people who want to try them for the first time. Now mind you - there will be former salt water, former African Cichlid, for community tank people that have kept fish for years and then when they get the impression that they have to basically serve Dicsus like fish gods they will just say forget about it.

This is not good for the hobby - especially those that make an income out of it. Something to think about.

Any hobbyist can keep Discus mostly the same way they have kept their other fish - providing that they kept their other fish well.

Asd for the natural tank. Their is a guy over at Reef Central and another forum I think it's called Manhattan Reefs. He lives out in Long Island. He keeps a large salt water tank with no WCs.

[Eddie]

I think there are a whole bunch of good answers here - thanks for posting them.

One thing I defintely agree with - I forgot who said it. A strong opinionated group who say must do 100% WC for Discus can really send the wrong signal, wrong info to people who want to try them for the first time.



Actually, the wrong signal is telling people to be laxed about waterchanges and expect to have the fish they thought they were buying. It happens all the time. Nobody mentioned that you need to do 100% WCs everyday to keep a discus successfully. What is mentioned is that regular water changes are required. How regular depends entirely on your set-up. Something that was hmmm.......easily read in the first couple of posts.

It is true, you can keep a stunted fish and be happy with it.


Eddie

[DiscusOnly]

I believe in working backward with the whole WC amount and frequency. You start out being on the "safe" side and scale back as you learn what works for you based on your goals. I've scale the WC on my 90gal planted tank back to 70% weekly and it has been working out.. I am slowly tweaking it down and think I may be able to get it down to 20-30% weekly. It's going to be a balance and that's something I'll learn over time.

I don't think it's a negative to discourage someone from getting into discus because they are afraid of the "work" require to keep the water clean. That's a few $ and discus I could save for that person.

[wall_o_fish]

I usually change around 50% per day and have had great growth with juvies. At one time I was changing about 80% per day and wondered if the extra 30% per day helped at all. In my opinion and very limited experience, around 50% per day is when you hit your point of diminishing returns.

scott


I've been seeing that its recommended to do water changes daily of 50% or at least 30% three times a week. I've been doing 30% every two weeks for my discus they seem fine< so why do more water changes?

[poconogal]

I wish I were even remotely good at photography... I'll see what I can do, I may have some timeline photos that more or less provide an indication of growth. But, fair warning, they'll be incredibly poor photos. I can understand the inclination to disbelieve without picture proof, certainly.
K, I've read about different methods over the years, including the Berlin method, (and I've also read about its use on the FW side utilizing lots of plants and a sand bed) so I need no convincing. I know what you're saying is not a theory, as someone posted, but a fact. But I also think that the alter methods are ones which should be attempted by those who really, really, really know what they are doing and for most its easier to just do the WCs, not that I feel that humongous, daily WCs are necessary, either. I've never done that, nor will I - no desire to be a slave to a fish tank! :D

[wall_o_fish]

One nice thing about what basshead has shared here is that it gives the water chemistry time to stabilize as well.

scott


Hey Chris, is the pressure bad at all faucets? Why don't you fill a storage container with water and then do water changes with a pump. At least this way you could do other things when you want and when its TANK time, its just fast and easy.

Eddie

[KDodds]

K, I've read about different methods over the years, including the Berlin method, (and I've also read about its use on the FW side utilizing lots of plants and a sand bed) so I need no convincing. I know what you're saying is not a theory, as someone posted, but a fact. But I also think that the alter methods are ones which should be attempted by those who really, really, really know what they are doing and for most its easier to just do the WCs, not that I feel that humongous, daily WCs are necessary, either. I've never done that, nor will I - no desire to be a slave to a fish tank! :D

Oh, agreed, you can NOT just throw sand and plants in a tank and say, "Pfft, water changes? Bah! I have PLANTS." I don't think, however, that it takes a WHOLE lot of research or dedication, but it does take a little, which may be too much for someone who just wants to know ONE thing. And if that's who you (general, not specific) are, hey, great! We're all different, and that's a good thing! So, if you (general, not specific) want a NO research approach, yeah, massive WCs might be the best approach.

[Scribbles]

Hey Chris, is the pressure bad at all faucets? Why don't you fill a storage container with water and then do water changes with a pump. At least this way you could do other things when you want and when its TANK time, its just fast and easy.

Eddie

The pressure is horrible at all faucets. Due to a population explosion the old water system is insufficient but we should get a new municipal source in the next year or so. Would love to do a water barrel but there isn't any room in the garage ( barely fit the cars in) and it's not my house so I can't put one inside.:( Oh well...discus are worth the time spent.:)

Chris

[Eddie]

The pressure is horrible at all faucets. Due to a population explosion the old water system is insufficient but we should get a new municipal source in the next year or so. Would love to do a water barrel but there isn't any room in the garage ( barely fit the cars in) and it's not my house so I can't put one inside.:( Oh well...discus are worth the time spent.:)

Chris

Oh okay Chris, sounds like you've thought about it. A member here on Simply, Carol Roberts, used to have aging barrels in her bathroom. Hows that for invading someones space. :D Bet the members in your house would LOVE that. ;)


Take care Chris,

Eddie

[hope]

well, I'm not proud of it, but I have a water barrel, too. Unfortunately the water out of the faucet in my town has 8.5 ph! I evenn called the water department and they said it's from treating the water because of old new england pipes! So.... I have to age the water in a bin in the tub (thank God I have 2 bathrooms), with a heater and airstone, then I drain water from my tank with a syphon, then attach an end of the syphon to a water pump kept in the barrel, and voila - water change.

I have 7 8 month olds and it was a lot easier doing daily water changes (100%) when they were in the 45 gallon tank! Since moving them to the 75 gallon tank I've only been able to do 60% changes daily (1 barrel), I think they are ok but I can't miss even a day without noticing it in my fish's behavior - where before (100% changes) I could miss a day if I was out of town. I also have them in bare bottom for this first year, and wipe down the tank and it's contents too.

Water changes - well, like someone else said, I found it is easiest for me when it's art of a routine - so I have specific chores I do while it's draining and filling up - otherwise I get distracted and we all know what happens then...

[Eddie]

well, I'm not proud of it, but I have a water barrel, too. Unfortunately the water out of the faucet in my town has 8.5 ph! I evenn called the water department and they said it's from treating the water because of old new england pipes! So.... I have to age the water in a bin in the tub (thank God I have 2 bathrooms), with a heater and airstone, then I drain water from my tank with a syphon, then attach an end of the syphon to a water pump kept in the barrel, and voila - water change.

I have 7 8 month olds and it was a lot easier doing daily water changes (100%) when they were in the 45 gallon tank! Since moving them to the 75 gallon tank I've only been able to do 60% changes daily (1 barrel), I think they are ok but I can't miss even a day without noticing it in my fish's behavior - where before (100% changes) I could miss a day if I was out of town. I also have them in bare bottom for this first year, and wipe down the tank and it's contents too.

Water changes - well, like someone else said, I found it is easiest for me when it's art of a routine - so I have specific chores I do while it's draining and filling up - otherwise I get distracted and we all know what happens then...

Hey there Hope, thanks for chiming in. If I had to, I'd be having in the barrels anywhere in the house! Sounds like you have a great routine down. The best part of having a routine is that it becomes easy the more you do it. Most people think I am crazy and work too hard on my tanks. I tell them its simple and I love doing it! ;)

Take care Hope,

Eddie

[AquatiCreations]

I have a small question of my own, can you change the water too often,as in affect your bio-filter?

[Eddie]

I have a small question of my own, can you change the water too often,as in affect your bio-filter?

Some breeders in Malaysia don't even use filters, just an airstone and massive daily waterchanges. :D

Eddie

[AquatiCreations]

Some breeders in Malaysia don't even use filters, just an airstone and massive daily waterchanges. :D

Eddie

Ah,living from water-change to water-change huh?:p

[Eddie]

Ah,living from water-change to water-change huh?:p

Could you imagine if that was your job! When I retire, thats what I want to do, do water changes all day everyday. If any of the breeders are looking for a workhorse, thats me. I'm serious!

Eddie

[AquatiCreations]

Could you imagine if that was your job! When I retire, thats what I want to do, do water changes all day everyday.

Eddie

LOL!

How did I know you were going to say that Eddie?:D

You know what they say, "Do something you love and,never work a day in your life" :p

[Eddie]

LOL!

How did I know you were going to say that Eddie?:D

You know what they say, "Do something you love and,never work a day in your life" :p

Ain't that the truth, that is exactly what I'm talking about!

Eddie

[Jhhnn]

I have a small question of my own, can you change the water too often,as in affect your bio-filter?

Well, if you change enough water often enough, you don't even need a filter. As I understand it, some Malaysian breeders do just that, with drip/ overflow systems. They'll run 3 or 4 times the tank's volume through every day, siphon the detritus off the bottom regularly... use some big airstones and that's it...

I do think it's possible to get carried away with water changes... well, maybe... unless you're using a system like K Dodds, which is a whole 'nuther realm. Nothing wrong with it- if it works, it works.

I suspect that over-exuberance cleaning sponge filters can damage the bio-filter. If nothing else, the trapped fine detritus gives the bacteria a food source, a way to keep up the colonies when times are lean...

Right now, I'm just adapting to more modern methods than I used years ago, learning, trying to get it right w/o a whole lot of error in the trial and error methodology...

I've learned that changing a lot of water definitely works, particularly when dealing with a new tank and heavy feeding of fish that can easily be stunted for lack of food and easily damaged or killed by poor water quality. So I'll stick with what I've learned will work, until I learn more... and I don't intend for that learning to come the hard way, with the bitter disappointment of dead or damaged fish...

[KDodds]

I have a small question of my own, can you change the water too often,as in affect your bio-filter?

The answer in a HEALTHY tank SHOULD be no. A common misconception in the hobby is that you're cycling the tank water. It's easy to see the confusion when it's the water you're testing, and the source water you're treating. BUT, your biofilter, the bacterial film that processes ammonia/nitrite (and in some cases nitrate) should NOT be prevalent in the water column, but rather on substrate (substrate in this context refers to surfaces, not just sand/gravel). Removing the water, therefore, should have no effect on the bacterial colonies that process nitrogenous compounds. However, fluctuating parameters can have an effect upon bacteria, though usually not to any great degree if the fish are not also effected.

[Roxanne]

Water changes also keep the ambient bugs to a minimum.....[Tito can tune out to this next part]...when taking samples from the tank at different water levels, the highest concentration of parasite action is at the bottom of the tank...if you don't vacuum the bottom, and you only change the water, you have done little to nothing to lighten the parasite load...and I guarantee illness for your fish...

it was said above, I think by Don T, that having a think about your personal circumstances and finding an easy way that works for you and creating your regime, is key.....and, the more you add to a tank, the more work you create for yourself...

not everyone can do massive water changes...some people have very unstable ph values between water source and tank...some have alot of gas in theirs...some have nitrates for God sake...think about what you have to work with and do what works for you...

[cfi on the fly]

You guys got me thinking of my WC routine which incorporates lots of buckets and lifting. I could easily use a hose to siphon the tank, but sucking on the hose? Does anyone ever get a big face full of discus dung doing that? My big problem would be getting water from my storage tank, which is about 40 ft. away, into my tank. What kind of pump do you recommend for this and would it be able to adapt to a garden hose?

Thanks

[Don Trinko]

Sucking on the hose to start the syphon can be done without a mouth full of water. You will learn eventualy. You can control how much water you remove by how deep you put the syphon in the tank.
You can get a pump and food grade hose to fill the tank from a long ways away. I fill my 2nd story Salt Water tank from a storage barrel in the basement using 50' of clear hose.
The main things to look for in a pump is the "head of water" that it will pump and the volume of water. I use a Qieteone 1200 for my fw tanks upstairs and a cheap sump pump to fill my living room tanks. ( storage in basement) I have a seperate pump for the SW tanks. ( 2 tanks) I also have a cheap water alarm that I got from Lowes. I hang it into the tank that is being filled just in case I get carried away on something else.
All of this sounds complicated but it is not and it sure beats buckets!
Don T.

[DiscusOnly]

Come on Don, sucking on the hose to start the siphon is tasty :D Gotta try at least once.

Kidding aside. I look into what Don suggested. Those quiet one pump are very handy. Just get the right size based on you setup. I use them to empty tanks that are too low for gravity drain.

[Eddie]

Just use a long enough hose to prevent tasting the discus wee.


Eddie

[Roxanne]

After much trial and error, I have my aging tanks higher than the aquarium tanks and just use an air line to refill...but, as already stated, you do need a pump if your aging barrels are lower than your tanks...

I've copped a mouthful of "discus wee" as Eddie put it before, but, it's actually really bad to get the tank water in your mouth as you can get TB if your fish are infected...aged water doesn't taste any better lol:D

[Eddie]

After much trial and error, I have my aging tanks higher than the aquarium tanks and just use an air line to refill...but, as already stated, you do need a pump if your aging barrels are lower than your tanks...

I've copped a mouthful of "discus wee" as Eddie put it before, but, it's actually really bad to get the tank water in your mouth as you can get TB if your fish are infected...aged water doesn't taste any better lol:D

Yeah, the last time I got a mouthful, I was :vomit:ing everywhere! Yuk

Eddie

[Roxanne]

:D...all I can taste for the last three days is water conditioner lol

[Scribbles]

YUK! If you use Prime that has to be as nasty as discus donuts.

Chris

[Roxanne]

...lol...if you don't want to cop a mouthful of those, watch where you point that syphon before you start sucking...:D

[Scribbles]

No thanks. I'll just stick to Dr. Pepper.

Chris