White mucus all over?

[Daniella]

I have been treating my fish for not too sure what because I could not id anything with my microscope that looked like what I saw for most parasites.

They stopped eating, became pitch black and were covered with white patches of mucus, clamped fins etc, motionless and hanging in a corner after I received 2 new fish and put them in QT. One of the new fish had nothing through out all this as if he was immune totaly.

I first did 4 days of Quick Cure but that did not help, so I stopped this and did PP baths. That really helped and now most fish are ok after 5 PP baths at 2ppm, but my red melon is still full of white mucus and I could swear it's getting more thick?

He,s eating now twice a day, no more scratching, no more clamped fins and he looks and act just as a healthy fish would do (chasing others around, dominance game etc.)

So what's going on? that white mucus seem to be more spread and getting thicker in some area in patches now but it does not seem to bother him at all??

Should I be worry about that? Would salt baths help to eliminate that white mucus? Should I continue the PP baths? He seem to be more relaxed and feeling better after each one but I am worried and this does not look right.

Anyone have any idea what's going on?

thanks a lot

[lemondiscus]

I feel horrible asking this but what is a "PP Bath".

I am very interested in this thread as this has happened to me before... I just made sure I fed them several times a day to keep them eating.... I salted with heat... but I did not loose any...

[Daniella]

it's permanganate potassium. It's a dangerous treatment if overdosed but very very safe if used at 2ppm and the only thing that saved my fish from that plague.

Did yours retained their white mucus for a long time? how long? My red melon is the only one that seem to retain that to such extend.

I think I will put some salt in my main aquarium to help their slime coat.



I feel horrible asking this but what is a "PP Bath".

I am very interested in this thread as this has happened to me before... I just made sure I fed them several times a day to keep them eating.... I salted with heat... but I did not loose any...

[lemondiscus]

Mine had it for about 2-3 weeks.... about 1 week of it was VERY scary! They were kind of not interested in feeding so I fed them less more often. I think I was feeding these adults 5-9 times a day. (most feedings were FBW their favorite and Live Blackworms)

That seemed to keep them interested in food. BUT they still after eating went dark and hid... It was though almost 3 weeks for them to act like them again.... It was my fault, no QT and new fish.... the new fish did not get it, everyone else did!

It looks like Ich when it first starts, then makes you think it is Velvet and then last you think its none of that and looks like an excess slime coat that cant be good....

Thanks for letting me know that too! Sorry, still getting used to some of the shorthand... I know what it is, just not the shorthand.... I may be new on here but I am not really to Discus.... newer than some of the celebs on this forum though...

[MostlyDiscus]

Hi Daniella, If he is eating and active then wait another day or so before doing anymore treatments of QC or PP. Sometimes there is a lagtime before the immune system fights it off.

Ed

[brewmaster15]

Daniella,

With all the PP treatments and quick cures you've done... Its possible that what you are seeing now on that one fish is bacterial infection taking advantage of the loss of slime coat....and/or damage done by parasites/chemicals.


Can you post a picture?

-al

[lemondiscus]

Attached is what mine looked like... poor guy was not happy... actually this incident seemed to have stunted this one about 8 months after this happened (has not grown but the other I purchased with it has doubled in size)

[Daniella]

the Quick Cure treatment were about 10 days ago.

I did 4 days of QC, then stopped this and started PP treatment.

I did 2 days in row of PP, then one day break, 2 days in row, one day off and this weekend one day. So far 5 treatments.

they had this thick white slime, all of them, from the begining of the illness. On the melon it was more in areas, or patches.

If it is a secondary bacterial infection, then why the PP bath not taking care of it? if it is bacterial then I should not let this go untreated and use something. Salt? antibiotics?

They never lost any slime coat though..this white stuff was there from the begining and never fell off.

Also since the fish has stopped scratching on objects, I am guessing it does not ich any longer.



Daniella,

With all the PP treatments and quick cures you've done... Its possible that what you are seeing now on that one fish is bacterial infection taking advantage of the loss of slime coat....and/or damage done by parasites/chemicals.


Can you post a picture?

-al

[lemondiscus]

Daniella - Did it look like the picture I posted of one of mine that did this?!

[Daniella]

Mine have more whitish mucus, like a velvet coat of white. there is some part that look a bit like yours though, on the fins.

tonight I will post a photos of the and the white stuff on the red melon. All other looking great and the white stuff on my eruption is practicaly gone.

On 2 of my fish (younger) the tail rotted when I did the one day break of PP and stopped rotting after I resumed the PP baths. Now it's growing back quite fast.



Attached is what mine looked like... poor guy was not happy... actually this incident seemed to have stunted this one about 8 months after this happened (has not grown but the other I purchased with it has doubled in size)

[lemondiscus]

That one in the picture got some fin rot too that went away when that white went away... that was not the worst of it, I took that picture around week 2 when I was on my last straw!

[Daniella]

How are they doing now? do they still have white stuff? I read about the discus plague that the white mucus on fish can last 3 weeks.

Funny thing that people say the discus plague is a myth when it is referenced by reputable society like the North American Discus Society and by at least 2 veterinarians and plenty of other sources.

Were you able to identify what caused that disease?




That one in the picture got some fin rot too that went away when that white went away... that was not the worst of it, I took that picture around week 2 when I was on my last straw!

[lemondiscus]

No, I never identified this illness/whatever else it could have been. That is why I am VERY interested in this thread.

Funny thing is for the 1st week or 2 my aquarium stunk, just like described with plague....

They are fine now but the one in the picture was stunted like I said.... poor guy is kind of not my healthiest fish by far now... :confused:

I have one that is about 1" long and about 2 years old (was given to me for free) that looks healthier than this one is now. This happened about 8-10 months ago.... the white patches went away entirely after about 3 weeks... All fish lived (8 were sick) but this one stunted... actually just started getting fin rot a few weeks ago and is REALLY thin, I dont expect her to live :( , but again she does not have the white on her now.... nothing wrong with any of my other ones though. It makes me think that this illness really hurt this one bad... all others recovered and continued to grow and be healthy

[MostlyDiscus]

Daniella, I can tell you this, you need to be very carefull using potassium permagnte. Do not add QC and PP at the same time. IMO you have done alot of treatments in a short period of time. The one remaining fish that is getting better, is this the runt or the fish that is most picked on? Sometimes a stressed fish takes a bit longer to turn around. Please forgive me if I seem short, I do care and really want to help you:)

Ed

[Daniella]

yes that smell!!! it's so horrible than when I was leaning to catch a fish I was near throwing up! It reminded me of the smell of a fish that die from dropsy, when they start to decompose. the water and whole aquarium stink for at least 10 days.

It really smell bad! That smell is gone now although it still smell a bit if I smell the fish directly but the smell is going away. I wonder what that was, maybe some bacteria infection can be smelly.

I read that some fish never return to their self after that disease. Some couple don,t reproduce any longer or have very small clotch of eggs.

As for the stunted, I will never buy young fish again. This is the advantage of buying adult dicsus. They are more resistant, have more fat and can witstand not eating for longer without getting too thin. They can recover much easier from getting thin.

I will never buy a fish smaller than 4 inches any longer and 5 inches being better. Don't care if they cost more. By the time one get a 2 inch discus to 5 inches, the cost of food and risk of stunting will already make it worth a little extra money.



No, I never identified this illness/whatever else it could have been. That is why I am VERY interested in this thread.

Funny thing is for the 1st week or 2 my aquarium stunk, just like described with plague....

They are fine now but the one in the picture was stunted like I said.... poor guy is kind of not my healthiest fish by far now... :confused:

I have one that is about 1" long and about 2 years old (was given to me for free) that looks healthier than this one is now. This happened about 8-10 months ago.... the white patches went away entirely after about 3 weeks... All fish lived (8 were sick) but this one stunted... actually just started getting fin rot a few weeks ago and is REALLY thin, I dont expect her to live :( , but again she does not have the white on her now.... nothing wrong with any of my other ones though. It makes me think that this illness really hurt this one bad... all others recovered and continued to grow and be healthy

[lemondiscus]

Agreed! I have only purchased adults after all the problems with youngsters I have had!

I dont think it will be as bad if my fish had babies... at least then they are adapted to the water... Young Discus are VERY susceptible to illness IMO.


I will never buy a fish smaller than 4 inches any longer and 5 inches being better. Don't care if they cost more. By the time one get a 2 inch discus to 5 inches, the cost of food and risk of stunting will already make it worth a little extra money.

[Daniella]

I used Quick cure at the begining on the advise of a forum member here.


I stopped this treatment before I started the PP baths. I never do treatment together unless I know for sure that it is safe. I had read before that PP and formaline do NOT mix, so I did not mix them.

As for the PP, it was only 2ppm and after each one the fish visibly improved. they did not look one bit stressed by any of the PP treatment. One fish nearly died after 4 days of Quick cure at full dose. I found it floating on its side dying. The only thing that revived it after 4 hours of this floating, was a strong 10ppm 3 minutes PP bath. then after 15 minutes of putting it back in the water it started to live again, swim like a drunk guy and then straight and was back to normal about 30 minutes after the PP bath. My explanation is that PP is good for oxygenate water and maybe the fish has suffer lack of oxygen from the formaline and was dying from it, then the PP bath reoxygenated it back to life. Can't think of anything else.

there are 10 fish in total. 4 fish are adult discus:`

1 super eruption: doing great, white mucus going away, hard to see now.
1 yellow face red melon: act normal but still has lots of white mucus.
1 tiger pigeon blood: was never sick, fat and healthy through all this.
1 golden albinos: doign great, white mucus practically all gone.

All adults are acting normal now, eating well. Only the melon has noticeable white stuff.

6 youngs, from 2 inch to 4 inch. Out of those, only one is not eating yet and still has clamped fins (I think I shoudl do a strong bath on that one). My smaller one was still pitch black yesterday before the PP bath and after that PP bath it returned to normal. he's normal today and eating well.

So it's only my melon that seem to take time to shed that white mucus and he's not improving on that part. he stopped scratching after that yesterday's pp bath. I did another bath because he was still scratching yesterday.

The white butterfly are having the more difficult time because they have no character what so ever. One is doing better because I removed the aggressive ones.

It is amazing how quickly the discus go back to their good little nasty self when they feel good :)

For now I am just worried about the melon. All others seem to be improving a lot. Even though the melon don't show any behavioral sign of illness, that white stuff worry me.

If he's eating well, regaining health, I surely don,t want to neglect something nasty only to see him fall back ill. I want to give him all the chances.

But be sure that the PP treatments don't stress them. They look and act totaly relaxed during the bath. clamped fins were unclamping, heavy breathing was returning to normal etc..it was like a miracle cure each time.

If not for that white slime, everything would be perfect.





Daniella, I can tell you this, you need to be very carefull using potassium permagnte. Do not add QC and PP at the same time. IMO you have done alot of treatments in a short period of time. The one remaining fish that is getting better, is this the runt or the fish that is most picked on? Sometimes a stressed fish takes a bit longer to turn around. Please forgive me if I seem short, I do care and really want to help you:)

Ed

[Daniella]

ok here are some pictures of him, not great pics but best I could do without opening the light and spooking them.

first from the side, we can,t see much if looking directly at him.

the pics don,t show, so here are the link to the pics:

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/112505373/original

and here is the patch of white mucus I can see on him.

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/112505394/original



http://i.pbase.com/o3/84/9684/1/112505373.7CWKsiHG._MG_1165.jpg
(http://i.pbase.com/o3/84/9684/1/112505373.7CWKsiHG._MG_1165.jpg)

and then when I look at him from the side, I can see there is still quite a bit of white mucus and some patches whereas it was clear before.

http://i.pbase.com/o3/84/9684/1/112505394.AwgkHtyw._MG_1161.jpg (http://i.pbase.com/o3/84/9684/1/112505394.AwgkHtyw._MG_1161.jpg)

[brewmaster15]

Daniella I editted your thread as the links were not showing...

The fish looks like its doing well...That whitish area may be nothing more than opportunistic bacteria or possibly fungus on Damaged tissue.. I think it will probably go away in Time...but if it persists or spreads I would remove the fish to a hospital tank

1. and either treat with Furan 2
2. or add Table salt at a rate of 1 tablespoon/1-2 gal water for a few days...If its fungus that will help clear it up.( personal experience)
3. Try acriflavin or Meth blue

Foremost I would try rest and lots of water changes...

Hth,
al

[Daniella]

Ok thanks a lot. I just realized that I posted this in the wrong section. I meant to post it in the disease section..my bad.

I think I will give him some rest as the last PP bath stopped the scratching and he did not resume scratching, at least not so far. He seems really good today, flipping and swimming normaly. Looking for food when ever I come close by.

One one is not eating but that one was not eating before that anyway.

I thought that table salt was dangerous for the fish? something to do with iodine or additive? do I need a special kind of table salt? Salt was my prefered thing to do next, to support but not sure what salt is good.




Daniella I editted your thread as the links were not showing...

The fish looks like its doing well...That whitish area may be nothing more than opportunistic bacteria or possibly fungus on Damaged tissue.. I think it will probably go away in Time...but if it persists or spreads I would remove the fish to a hospital tank

1. and either treat with Furan 2
2. or add Table salt at a rate of 1 tablespoon/1-2 gal water for a few days...If its fungus that will help clear it up.( personal experience)
3. Try acriflavin or Meth blue

Foremost I would try rest and lots of water changes...

Hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

I thought that table salt was dangerous for the fish? something to do with iodine or additive? do I need a special kind of table salt? Salt was my prefered thing to do next, to support but not sure what salt is good.
For the amount of time and concentration it would be fine...You can also use Iodine free table salt.. I use Kosher tabel salt..Iodine free when I need it.

Hth,
al

[Graham]

Actually salt does not have iodine in it; it's iodide and its harmless

The only thing to look out for is the anti-caking agent YPS

[Daniella]

Pure salt does not but my table salt has idodine in it, why I was asking.

http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/table_salt.html

I will look for salt without anti-caking agent.






Actually salt does not have iodine in it; it iodide and it harmless

The only thing to look out for is the anti-caking agent YPS

[Graham]

Your salt, any table salt has iodide in it, as it's source of iodine...same as salt has chloride in it, not chlorine. If it did then salt would kill all the fish.... Same as flouride...we don't brush our teeth with flourine



All same element but different electrical charge, making them and it, iodide, harmelss

:bandana:

[Roxanne]

It says to use only uniodised salt in the Simply Library, which might be partly where the misconception is coming from.

Roxanne

[Eddie]

At the grocery store here on base they sell 2 types of table salt, both made by Morton. One is iodized and the other is not. The one that is iodide free, states on the bottom that it does not supply iodide. Thats the one I use and I have heard you can use one or the other. Just that old habits are hard to break. :o

Eddie

[Daniella]

yes exactly what I read as well, so yes very confusing.

I read so many confusing things about salt. not to use iodised salt, not to use aquarium salt but rock salt, use aquarium salt not table salt, use table salt etc.. all very conflicting and confusing.

Right now my main problem is getting back my biofilter working. After the PP treatment everything is waked and my water quality is to the point where I need to do a major water change each day (about 60%).

Anyway the fish still has this white mucus. He eats well but this mucus is not going away after 3 days and it's sort of leveling out and maybe, not sure, spreading more even. The fish is not scratching or anything, but that is wierd and does not look normal.


Can't put salt right now because I have ammochip to remove and prevent ammonia peak, so not sure what next to do. Take the risk of having ammonia peak and use salt and remove the ammochip or what.

Even though I syphon every left over very quickly (30 minutes) the ammonia can rise from 0 to .25 in only a few hours and it's a 120 gallons, so it takes forever to do a water change!

I got my new fishes yesterday, very beautiful checkerboard and one white butterfly, and the breeder gave me a squeeze of one of his sponge filter to start up my biofilter, but after looking at it under the microscope...not sure I want to do that :) Of course the new fishes were in that water so no biggy since they were already in contact with what ever is in there, but I do not wish to introduce nasty bugs along the way since I cleaned things so well now.

I was thinking of making the water go through a coffe filter as this would probably filter out the small bugs, costia etc, if any, and then check again under the microscope. I wonder if this would remove the bugs and let the benificial bacteria through?

For now this water is isolated in a bucket with areation. Good thing it's a 3 days weekend because I am going to need this time off.

Anyone know how long it takes to restart a cycle from using a good sponge squeeze?








It says to use only uniodised salt in the Simply Library, which might be partly where the misconception is coming from.

Roxanne

[Roxanne]

What's your ph at in the tank as of now?

[Eddie]

Yes....just as long as cycling a tank without a squeeze of water from a cycled filter.

Your best bet is to stay on top of the WCs and go buy a product that will help jump start your cycle. SafeStart from Tetra is pretty good.

My question to you is, how do you have an ammonia problem in a 120 gallon tank. If you are doing 60% WCs daily, you should have zilch for ammonia or a small amount. Since your filters were nuked by the PP, did you clean them out really well or leave the dead bacteria in there?

Eddie

[Daniella]

Same as it is usualy, 7.4. It's like that out of my tap and stay like that pretty much since I do water change each day.




What's your ph at in the tank as of now?

[seanyuki]

hahaha Eddie you did your homework using Tetra Safe Start now:p

Cheers
Francis:)



Yes....just as long as cycling a tank without a squeeze of water from a cycled filter.

Your best bet is to stay on top of the WCs and go buy a product that will help jump start your cycle. SafeStart from Tetra is pretty good.

My question to you is, how do you have an ammonia problem in a 120 gallon tank. If you are doing 60% WCs daily, you should have zilch for ammonia or a small amount. Since your filters were nuked by the PP, did you clean them out really well or leave the dead bacteria in there?

Eddie

[Daniella]

I would love to get safestart but it is not on sale around here in Canada. Can't find that anywhere. maybe online? any hint?

I have tried stresszyme and cycle without any change what so ever. Those are totaly worthless product in my book now.

don't ask me where the ammonia is coming from. big loss here, I have no idea. I have clean filters as I open them on regular basis to remove any extra decomposing material. I do not rinse anything, just drain the stuff and put back new aquarium water and restart.

No dead fish decomposing either. The aquarium is quite clean and water is crisp,but I have ammonia that is rising quite fast. I think my fish are still shedding some mucus from their previous disease maybe and that is polluting the water? not sure.

After the PP treatment I did clean the filter very well, rinsed the filter pads in aquarium water etc..I do really good maintenance on my filters and don't let decaying matter there accumulate in large quantity.

Ammonia is not that much but if I don't do those daily water change it will rise to pretty bad level. I have about .25 at max for now with daily WC.

In fact, I have less trouble maintaining good water quality in the 120 gallon than in the 20 gallon with much less filtration! wierd huh?

My tap is good. No chloramine, only small amount of chlorine according to the water company. No other chimical and no ammonia either in my tap.

So squeezing an old filter does not speed up things at all? if so then I will not put this in my aquarium at all.



Yes....just as long as cycling a tank without a squeeze of water from a cycled filter.

Your best bet is to stay on top of the WCs and go buy a product that will help jump start your cycle. SafeStart from Tetra is pretty good.

My question to you is, how do you have an ammonia problem in a 120 gallon tank. If you are doing 60% WCs daily, you should have zilch for ammonia or a small amount. Since your filters were nuked by the PP, did you clean them out really well or leave the dead bacteria in there?

Eddie

[Roxanne]

...I must be tired, I mean to ask you about your nitrites...if you are showing any, there is still some action in your filter, which means it won't take a month to catch back up...if you show none, you'll be basically starting it from scratch....which is why your ammonia levels are so high...

Roxanne

[Daniella]

no, not a trace of nitrite at all. Only ammonia. I guess my cycle is not even there where it produce nitrites.
I guess I'll be starting from scratch, unles I can see this filter sqeeze somehow.

I guess my best beth is to do a fishless cycle with that filter sqeeze and that shoudl not take too long. I guess also if there is no fish then all parasites if present will just die without food. I surerly hope.

I checked for safestart and wow...it's insane money to have it shipped here in Canada from the USA. 60$ just for the shipping.






...I must be tired, I mean to ask you about your nitrites...if you are showing any, there is still some action in your filter, which means it won't take a month to catch back up...if you show none, you'll be basically starting it from scratch....which is why your ammonia levels are so high...

Roxanne

[seanyuki]

They sell Tetra Safe Smart at Petsmart in Canada.

Try the Tetra link

http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetrafish/catalog/productdetail.aspx?id=1276&cid=3582

Type in your postal code...

Find a Dealer
Use our dealer locator to find the closest Tetra retailer.
Zip Code: Search Radius:


Hope this helps

Cheers
Francis:)




I would love to get safestart but it is not on sale around here in Canada. Can't find that anywhere. maybe online? any hint?

I have tried stresszyme and cycle without any change what so ever. Those are totaly worthless product in my book now.

don't ask me where the ammonia is coming from. big loss here, I have no idea. I have clean filters as I open them on regular basis to remove any extra decomposing material. I do not rinse anything, just drain the stuff and put back new aquarium water and restart.

No dead fish decomposing either. The aquarium is quite clean and water is crisp,but I have ammonia that is rising quite fast. I think my fish are still shedding some mucus from their previous disease maybe and that is polluting the water? not sure.

After the PP treatment I did clean the filter very well, rinsed the filter pads in aquarium water etc..I do really good maintenance on my filters and don't let decaying matter there accumulate in large quantity.

Ammonia is not that much but if I don't do those daily water change it will rise to pretty bad level. I have about .25 at max for now with daily WC.

In fact, I have less trouble maintaining good water quality in the 120 gallon than in the 20 gallon with much less filtration! wierd huh?

My tap is good. No chloramine, only small amount of chlorine according to the water company. No other chimical and no ammonia either in my tap.

So squeezing an old filter does not speed up things at all? if so then I will not put this in my aquarium at all.

[Graham]

It says to use only uniodised salt in the Simply Library, which might be partly where the misconception is coming from.

Roxanne

Roxanne the salt thing is the oldest myth in the hobby. Hobbyist see iodide (I-)and relate it to antispetic iodine (I) that your mother put on a booboo. All living things need iodine and for us to get enough manufacturers add potassium iodide (K+I-) or cuprous iodide (CuI-). Just swabbing a wound on a fish probably adds more toxic iodine to the system that a typical dose of salt.

Roddy wrote this ages ago...........


Iodized salt--- Will not, contrary to popular myth, affect your fish health. Iodized table salt in the USA contains 77 milligrams of potassium iodide per kilogram of table salt. That means the potassium iodide content of table salt is only 0.0077%, or 77 parts per million in the salt. Then when, lets say, 0.3 weight % table salt is added to a pond, the potassium iodide content of the pond will be 0.003 times 0.0077%, or 0.000023%, or only 0.23 ppm. In the MSDS for aquatic toxicity of potassium iodide, the EC50 for shellfish is given as 2.7 mg or 2.7 ppm, the EC50 for protozoa is given as above 40 mg/l or over 40 ppm. There is no apparent reason to give an aquatic toxicity for potassium iodide for fish, since it apparently does not hurt them. The aquarium hobby, where this myth probably came from, frowns on the use of salt due to Iodine additive clouding the water, something you will never notice in a pond.

Dr Roddy Conrad


Then the manufacturers got a hold of it and just spread the myth even farther, with you have to buy ''Aquarium Salt''. Salt is salt.

Needless to say I'm not not about marine salt mixes which have tons of additional buffers in them for pH

[Roxanne]

Squeezing a filter into a tank does nothing to help & won't make anything happen faster unfortunately...however, if I were desperate, I would cut a chunk of cycled media off another sponge and shove it into another filter, and aside from a small adjustment period while the bacteria multiply, you would have a filter ready much sooner...the downside is you are transferring around any lurking nasties from the original tank...a fishless cycle with a clean ammonia source would always be first choice though...personal choice there...have to weigh up transferring nasties versus putting fish through an ammonia/nitrite spike....tough call...

Roxanne

[Roxanne]

.. Salt is salt.

..


I understand G, I was just pointing out that the "myth" is perpetuated in the Simply Library, which is actually where I first read it quite a few moons ago now:)

Rox

[Daniella]

Yes I can see some bugs still living in there so I won't use it. Now that my tank are clean, at least I hope they are, I don't want to introduce something nasty for sure.

The new fishes are doing great, good appetite as well as the others. All eating with a usual discus appetite. My melon seem to be evening out for the mucus. It's like it's slowly going away as it get less patchy and more even but less thick.

So things look good. The new fishes had a 2 weeks quarantine at the breeder/importer as he kept them for me in a separated tank. They were imported from Malaysia. I gave them a PP bath today, and will treat them for internal parasites with jungle lab parasite clear, just to make sure they are clean inside-out.

I think they have gill flukes. I can see they are sometime breathing from one gill and faster.

Now if the water quality can get back on track, everything will be cool :)

There is only one small white butterfly that is not eating, as it did not resume eating after the illness, so not sure what to do with that one. Force feeding might be the only solution or should I put it in the freezer and end its misery? The fish is so thin.



Squeezing a filter into a tank does nothing to help & won't make anything happen faster unfortunately...however, if I were desperate, I would cut a chunk of cycled media off another sponge and shove it into another filter, and aside from a small adjustment period while the bacteria multiply, you would have a filter ready much sooner...the downside is you are transferring around any lurking nasties from the original tank...a fishless cycle with a clean ammonia source would always be first choice though...personal choice there...have to weigh up transferring nasties versus putting fish through an ammonia/nitrite spike....tough call...

Roxanne

[Roxanne]

.. It's like it's slowly going away as it get less patchy and more even but less thick.

..
I think they have gill flukes. I can see they are sometime breathing from one gill and faster.

Now if the water quality can get back on track, everything will be cool :)

There is only one small white butterfly that is not eating, as it did not resume eating after the illness, so not sure what to do with that one. Force feeding might be the only solution or should I put it in the freezer and end its misery? The fish is so thin.

Brew mentioned before that it sounded like bacterial that might go on it's own, which might be why they are breathing heavy sometimes also, it isn't always flukes that cause the heavy breathing.

I have heard so many "discus come back" stories on this site that I am hesitant to recommend euthanising unless the fish was badly injured....it's a personal choice I wouldn't like to make for myself let alone anyone else....that's a tough call.

Roxanne

[Eddie]

Seems to me that you are trying every med in the book. Parasite Clear is for both external and internal. You just nuked everything with PP so you probably don't have any externals. Might try to get Metro in a powder form to control the amount and to also minimize the exposure of your fish to all these meds.

One gill function is not a sure indication of flukes. Are the fish flashing, scratching and rubbing against things in the tank. Are they flicking their fins.

I'm trying to figure out where you assume every fish is diseased and that meds are the first avenue. They should be your last.

Eddie

[Roxanne]

This is a little bit of a side track but I think it is relevant, and, of course only my opinion. Firstly, alot of what we scope can be considered harmless if you consider that if we didn't have a scope, we wouldn't know what was there anyway. I can almost guarantee you could find lots of things in anyone's tank. Yet, their fish live long healthy lives. Why? Because they are not stressed out and vulnerable. Parasites such as costia are opportunistic and can only get at the fish if the slime coat is degraded or broken down, such as when the fish is stressed out. So, bearing that in mind, if we use the scope when observation tells us something MIGHT be wrong, but not rush to conclusions about what we see, we may find we don't need as much meds as we think we do. Example. I have my juvie tank in a high traffic area to get them used to ...high traffic...anyway, my twins had a brawl in front of the tank yesterday and the juvies went nuts, swimming around in circles, crashing and spooking all over the place, and they went black and hid for about 12 hours. Anyone looking at them would have said, my God, they need meds. Just say I didn't know they got spooked by the kids, and I just found them black....If I had scoped their water and found say, trich, would I think that's why they were dark? What about when they sleep, alot of the strains go dark. My juvies don't like the lights off so how do I know if they are asleep? This morning they are fine and you wouldn't know anything was wrong. If the stressor did not relent, in this case, me getting the kids away from the tank real fast, anything in that tank could have taken the opportunity to get at the fish. And I would have thought it was disease. If I diagnose incorrectly, all I do is weaken the fish further. It becomes hard to say what was even wrong in the first place when the fish end up so weakened by meds and continual stress of water changes, that anyone is probably really hesitant about suggesting anything.

It is hard to diagnose costia without doing a stain, so I find, the more pics I look at, the better I get at spotting 'somethings' or 'nothings'.

In the meantime, I'd follow Brew or Grahams advice.

Roxanne

[Eddie]

hahaha Eddie you did your homework using Tetra Safe Start now:p

Cheers
Francis:)

LOL, no......not me. HAHAHA! I tried it out and it fixed my knocked out bacteria colony. I hit one of my tanks with Trichlorfon a while back and it nuked the filter. I squeezed the filter out really good, did my daily 100% wc and dumped about half a bottle in the tank. After 2 days (didn't change any water), NITRATES. LOL

Eddie

[Daniella]

PP does not always get the flukes on first try. It does not mean that at 2ppm all the flukes will be killed or if any will be killed.

Also can't say that PP kill everything because I waked my plants with 10ppm and left it there for hours and when I look under the microscope, there are still plenty of bugs living in there.

I do not do my PP baths as strong as some people do here. I prefer to go slowly and do more milder baths. It did take more than one to completely cure what my fish had, so you can't be sure that one bath is enough. It is rarely enough I think, from what I read.


and yes I saw a few fish flashing and scratching on my air tubing. I am pretty sure it's fluke or gill parasites. They look healthy otherwise and have good appetite.

I do not know of any other way to get rid of flukes than to use med and I will never put any new discus in my tank with the others without treating them for internal parasites as well. That's my way of doing it, your mileage may vary and yes I pretty much assume they do have worm or parasites as I have no way of knowing if they do or not, so I am playing it safe. This is not going to hurt them anyway, quite the opposite.

As for tetra safestart. can't find it anywhere around here, can't order it online unless I pay 60$ shipping. No issue it seems because no canadian web site sell it from what I could find.










Seems to me that you are trying every med in the book. Parasite Clear is for both external and internal. You just nuked everything with PP so you probably don't have any externals. Might try to get Metro in a powder form to control the amount and to also minimize the exposure of your fish to all these meds.

One gill function is not a sure indication of flukes. Are the fish flashing, scratching and rubbing against things in the tank. Are they flicking their fins.

I'm trying to figure out where you assume every fish is diseased and that meds are the first avenue. They should be your last.

Eddie

[Eddie]

I do not know of any other way to get rid of flukes than to use med and I will never put any new discus in my tank with the others without treating them for internal parasites as well. That's my way of doing it, your mileage may vary and yes I pretty much assume they do have worm or parasites as I have no way of knowing if they do or not, so I am playing it safe. This is not going to hurt them anyway, quite the opposite.



Actually your rationale is the opposite. The best way of QTing new fish is by monitoring them for 6 weeks or more. You can use an external parasite medication if any, but using preventative medication on healthy fish does loads more damage than good.

Another thing, if you did your homework, you would see that Parasite Clear alone does both, internal and external. Why did you use the PP?

Best of luck,

Eddie

[Daniella]

Sure. I am not expecting my tank to be completely parasites free, I am just hoping they will be and putting all the chances on my side.

However, my fishes were not stressed one bit when they became sick. Tank was cycled, they were eating well, not skittish at all and doing their discus business as usual. This thing hapened very quickly and in matter of hours their behavior and look was totaly changed. It was really really fast.

There was no degraded or broken down slime coat, no stress, no bad water, nothing changed in their routine either. They were healthy well adjusted discus.

Beleive me, if that ever happen to your fishes, you will know that something is very wrong. You cannot be mistaken. They become covered with thick white mucus and they stink enough to make you throw up. Everything stink. You cannot mistake that for anything else.

As for the new fishes, I will definitly use med.

What I am more concerned about is what to do with the white butterfly that refuse to eat.

My fishes were not stressed by the med, not even by the PP treatment. It's what saved them and I could swear they knew it was doing them good. They were relaxing and looking better and better on each treatment.

This has nothing to compare to your fishes dashing from a spoook and becoming black, believe me.

Also not because you would see costia, that this means that it is the actual cause of the disease. I beleive my fishes cought a virus that made their immune system weak, and they cought all sort of secondary infection. Parasites took over (although I cannot say I really saw them) or bacterias took over. I cannot say for sure but that's whath I think. Could have been a bad bacteria too, because of that smell. I don't know if costia smell so bad as this and I cannot say that I could identify costia with my microscope. Like I said, what I saw was much smaller at 400x than what I see for costia and it was not moving the same way, although it was moving fast.

There are times when you know you have nothing to lose because if you don't do something, you lose your fishes.

Not to be confused with spooked fish.

what evidence is there that the med stress them? or do harm to them?

I think that parasites stress them far far more. It is best to try to kill all the parasites as a fish with parasites is not an healthy fish. It does not thrive as much as it could without all these bugs.

For the gills, damage could accumulate with time to something irreversable. Not good.





This is a little bit of a side track but I think it is relevant, and, of course only my opinion. Firstly, alot of what we scope can be considered harmless if you consider that if we didn't have a scope, we wouldn't know what was there anyway. I can almost guarantee you could find lots of things in anyone's tank. Yet, their fish live long healthy lives. Why? Because they are not stressed out and vulnerable. Parasites such as costia are opportunistic and can only get at the fish if the slime coat is degraded or broken down, such as when the fish is stressed out. So, bearing that in mind, if we use the scope when observation tells us something MIGHT be wrong, but not rush to conclusions about what we see, we may find we don't need as much meds as we think we do. Example. I have my juvie tank in a high traffic area to get them used to ...high traffic...anyway, my twins had a brawl in front of the tank yesterday and the juvies went nuts, swimming around in circles, crashing and spooking all over the place, and they went black and hid for about 12 hours. Anyone looking at them would have said, my God, they need meds. Just say I didn't know they got spooked by the kids, and I just found them black....If I had scoped their water and found say, trich, would I think that's why they were dark? What about when they sleep, alot of the strains go dark. My juvies don't like the lights off so how do I know if they are asleep? This morning they are fine and you wouldn't know anything was wrong. If the stressor did not relent, in this case, me getting the kids away from the tank real fast, anything in that tank could have taken the opportunity to get at the fish. And I would have thought it was disease. If I diagnose incorrectly, all I do is weaken the fish further. It becomes hard to say what was even wrong in the first place when the fish end up so weakened by meds and continual stress of water changes, that anyone is probably really hesitant about suggesting anything.

It is hard to diagnose costia without doing a stain, so I find, the more pics I look at, the better I get at spotting 'somethings' or 'nothings'.

In the meantime, I'd follow Brew or Grahams advice.

Roxanne

[Daniella]

where do you see reference to the damage that these med can do? I woudl like to read that.

Problem is that you can never be sure they don't have internal parasites if you don't deworm them. then you wait 6 weeks, no problem jo so lets put them in the tank..then they get stressed out by being introduced in a existing clan of discus and bang..they get stressed and stop eating, start to poo white and guess what? they pass that to your other healthy discus. I read this over and over and over.

Fish can stay healthy for much more than 6 weeks without any sign of parasites and then it just happen out of the blue when they get stressed.

I use PP because it does take care of things quick when an immediate releive is needed but it does not always kill flukes. I like to follow through with internal parasite and worm treatment, your mileage may vary.

Flukes are extremely hard to get rid of, I guess you did not know that.





Actually your rationale is the opposite. The best way of QTing new fish is by monitoring them for 6 weeks or more. You can use an external parasite medication if any, but using preventative medication on healthy fish does loads more damage than good.

Another thing, if you did your homework, you would see that Parasite Clear alone does both, internal and external. Why did you use the PP?

Best of luck,

Eddie

[Eddie]

where do you see reference to the damage that these med can do? I woudl like to read that.

Problem is that you can never be sure they don't have internal parasites if you don't deworm them. then you wait 6 weeks, no problem jo so lets put them in the tank..then they get stressed out by being introduced in a existing clan of discus and bang..they get stressed and stop eating, start to poo white and guess what? they pass that to your other healthy discus. I read this over and over and over.

Fish can stay healthy for much more than 6 weeks without any sign of parasites and then it just happen out of the blue when they get stressed.

I use PP because it does take care of things quick when an immediate releive is needed but it does not always kill flukes. I like to follow through with internal parasite and worm treatment, your mileage may vary.

Flukes are extremely hard to get rid of, I guess you did not know that.

Yeah....I never knew Flukes were hard to get rid of. LOL You will never get rid of them, going your route.

Good luck with the meds, if you need any references for more meds, there are plenty more you can throw at them.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Very usefull info. thumbs up.




Yeah....I never knew Flukes were hard to get rid of. LOL You will never get rid of them, going your route.

Good luck with the meds, if you need any references for more meds, there are plenty more you can throw at them.

Eddie

[Roxanne]

:crazy:There's ten minutes of my life I will never get back....what was I thinking???

[frenchie100]

:crazy:There's ten minutes of my life I will never get back....what was I thinking???


Yeah....I never knew Flukes were hard to get rid of. LOL You will never get rid of them, going your route.

Good luck with the meds, if you need any references for more meds, there are plenty more you can throw at them.

Eddie

LOL! Sorry couldn't help it! You guys are hilarious! I stopped trying, it's useless.

[Eddie]

LOL! Sorry couldn't help it! You guys are hilarious! I stopped trying, it's useless.

LOL, the funny thing is, the recommendation for all these meds when it is impossible to realize which one worked! Thats if they did at all. LOL

Eddie

[frenchie100]

LOL, the funny thing is, the recommendation for all these meds when it is impossible to realize which one worked! Thats if they did at all. LOL

Eddie

Totally agree! It's very frustrating!

-Julie

[Eddie]

where do you see reference to the damage that these med can do? I woudl like to read that.

Problem is that you can never be sure they don't have internal parasites if you don't deworm them. then you wait 6 weeks, no problem jo so lets put them in the tank..then they get stressed out by being introduced in a existing clan of discus and bang..they get stressed and stop eating, start to poo white and guess what? they pass that to your other healthy discus. I read this over and over and over.

Fish can stay healthy for much more than 6 weeks without any sign of parasites and then it just happen out of the blue when they get stressed.

I use PP because it does take care of things quick when an immediate releive is needed but it does not always kill flukes. I like to follow through with internal parasite and worm treatment, your mileage may vary.

Flukes are extremely hard to get rid of, I guess you did not know that.

This whole post just kills me, LMAO.

Eddie

[Daniella]

If only it would! no joke.

And you're the one talking, when you fried your fishes. At least I saved mine so I did the right thing obviously.

It's easy to know what worked and what did not. When you use something for 4 days and it does not change one bit the condition of your fishes, you know it's not working.

When you use something and after one hour you see improvement, you know it,s working.

As for what treatment worked, now that's too obvious.

Some people here have a lot of time to waste and the will to do so.



This whole post just kills me, LMAO.

Eddie

[Daniella]

you are right about it, it's totaly useless. Frankly, none of this is helping me in any way.

totaly worthless.



LOL, the funny thing is, the recommendation for all these meds when it is impossible to realize which one worked! Thats if they did at all. LOL

Eddie

[Eddie]

Helpless and hopeless


;)

[kpotter2]

Over medication is one big problem along with not knowing what to use first. Even when others are there to help you still have to make the best with what you think is right for your fish and your tank.

Eddie I thank God you where there for me when I needed some advise and I have had a lot of discus in the past and do now. Its all about the experience one has and gaining it from others. I had never came across the problem I was having ever or never new some one who had.I too had dark discus with white patches and they where eating ok,but laying on there sides in corners and just looking bad. That was the key for me to use Tetracycline for Bacterial Infection, but I still don't know for sure what it was.I do know that every one was fine before I brought in 3 fish in and QT them and they died with in days. I know I was in for something just didn't know what. When I ask a Al at RockymountainDiscus his first response was what did I add recently. I said 3 new discus that died. He said it was Bacterial and to use Tetracycline. I he hawed around for 2 days before I made up my mind. I needed help and got it here. Even know I didn't use the med Eddie suggested everything worked out and every one got better that could get better.

Flukes are very hard to get rid of and even then you think they are gone they come back again. I agree that using too many different meds could be harmful and counter productive so if one is going to treat a fish make sure you stick with it. Let it run its course. If it don't work let them rest for 24 hours and move on.

Bacterial infections can also make you think you have flukes and your fish only have a gill infection. I think using a microscope helped me with my last bought with flukes. I had one baby die and I took a look and there the crappers where so I treated with Prazipro and doing well. I still lost 5 baby's,because fish all have different tolerances. It just happens and you live and learn of course. You can't all ways save them all.

Good luck Daniella


Kyle

[Daniella]

I totaly agree with what you said here. One has to go through a treatment and see if it work, but I also think that if there is no improvement seen, then something else need to be done and quicly.

I think some people here get frustrated if what they suggest don,t work. who cares? it's the fish that are important and doing what is needed to save them.

My fish are doing great now. The white mucus is going away. They are all eating with a discus appetite.

I am now trying to save the last and lost cause, a small white butterfly that is not eating. I went ahead and gave it a 10ppm PP bath for 10 minutes today and I think it might work out. He was swimming all around after that and even went for the food when I put it, but it did not eat it, just went for it and spit it out.

Still, better than the letargic attitude it was for the last 3 weeks, not eating, fins clamped in a corner and wasting away.

I plan on doing 2 PP bath a day and see if that get it on the right track. I was thinking of force feeding it but not sure how to do that and it is not easy to get good info on that.

I don't have much hope though. He's pancake thin.

who gave you the advise on tetracycline?






Over medication is one big problem along with not knowing what to use first. Even when others are there to help you still have to make the best with what you think is right for your fish and your tank.

Eddie I thank God you where there for me when I needed some advise and I have had a lot of discus in the past and do now. Its all about the experience one has and gaining it from others. I had never came across the problem I was having ever or never new some one who had.I too had dark discus with white patches and they where eating ok,but laying on there sides in corners and just looking bad. That was the key for me to use Tetracycline for Bacterial Infection, but I still don't know for sure what it was. I needed help and got it here. Even know I didn't use the med Eddie suggested everything worked out and every one got better that could get better. Flukes are very hard to get rid of and even then you think they are gone they come back again.

I agree that using too many different meds could be harmful and counter productive so if one is going to treat a fish make sure you stick with it. Let it run its course

Bacterial infections can also make you think you have flukes and your fish only have a gill infection. I think using a microscope helped me with my last bought with flukes. I had one baby die and I took a look and there the crappers where so I treated with Prazipro and doing well. Water

Good luck Daniella


Kyle

[kpotter2]

Al at RockymountainDiscus

kyle

[Daniella]

You forget totaly worthless. FRanly I am surprised at the level of maturity of some people here. you people have a lot of time to waste! This is amazing.


Helpless and hopeless


;)

[kpotter2]

He with out hesitation said that was the problem. There was no doubt in his mind,but I still heehawed around with it and search the internet. I found about it and finally after get meds Eddie suggested I went with tetracycline. I think I only when with tetra,because its a 4 day treatment that did not effect my bio or die my tank silicone.

What finally worked for you then


Kyle

[Daniella]

Glad you saved your fish.

I saw his site before. They got some really awesome fish and they look very professional and responsible.

I really like their white butterfly.



Al at RockymountainDiscus

kyle

[Eddie]

You forget totaly worthless. FRanly I am surprised at the level of maturity of some people here. you people have a lot of time to waste! This is amazing.

Exactly what I was thinking. Medicating fish like trying on clothes. Not good advice.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Tetracycline does not affect your biofilter? Interesting.

What saved my fish was permanganate potassium bath, at 2ppm for 4 hour. One bath each day for 2 days, then one day rest, 3 days treatment.

I regret that I did not do it earlier. I wasted 4 days with Quick cure that did nothing except getting my fish worse and delaying recovery. I was hesitant on using PP but I should not have. It was a miracle treatment that improved my fish condition almost immediatly and stopped their torture.

I too am not sure what they had. It was extremely fast disease and contagious. went pitch black, full of white mucus, smelling very bad, tail rotting, clamped fins and not eating. all that jazz.





He with out hesitation said that was the problem. There was no doubt in his mind,but I still heehawed around with it and search the internet. I found about it and finally after get meds Eddie suggested I went with tetracycline. I think I only when with tetra,because its a 4 day treatment that did not effect my bio or die my tank silicone.

What finally worked for you then


Kyle

[kpotter2]

Yes I saved what could be saved I did lose some about 4 plus some baby's from my pair I had just gotten to breed and keep fry. I lost female,but she was in bad shap and got there very fast. Over all I seen improvement with in 2 day after using it.

Al is very cool guy and knows alot about discus. He use to be in Colorado and I picked up some discus one year in the 90's and brought them back to Iowa where I live and they did great. I never lost one of them and they did end up pairing off for me the next year. He is now in Ohio and I wish he was still in colorado.

My 2 year old wants to go to bed now. take care

Good nite

Kyle

[kpotter2]

Mine had the same symptoms,but they did eat at the time. I am sure they would have stopped eventually. They were not eating like they should but they did eat. I too was told PP was a great treatment by a breeder and that they use it all the time over seas. Its fast and when it use right not harmful at all to your fish,but it will kill your bio. Jack wattley said that lowering PH to 4.0 and raising water temp would do just as well as any Medication out.

And yes tetra will not kill the Bio. I use tetracycline by AFI and it was great,but not cheap.

Take care

Kyle

[Daniella]

Good night and thanks for the kind words.

I know what you mean about getting there very fast. Seing improvement after 2 days is a good indication that a treatment is working. Should not take any longer to see improvement one can assume it's not working.




Yes I saved what could be saved I did lose some about 4 plus some baby's from my pair I had just gotten to breed and keep fry. I lost female,but she was in bad shap and got there very fast. Over all I seen improvement with in 2 day after using it.

Al is very cool guy and knows alot about discus. He use to be in Colorado and I picked up some discus one year in the 90's and brought them back to Iowa where I live and they did great. I never lost one of them and they did end up pairing off for me the next year. He is now in Ohio and I wish he was still in colorado.

My 2 year old wants to go to bed now. take care

Good nite

Kyle

[Daniella]

Yes it did kill my biofilter totaly. It's completely down and I know have to do water change 2 times a day. What my fish had was so fast and dreadfull that I did not want to take the risk of having something that nasty surviving and infecting fish later on or new fish.

With PP, I did not lose any fish. Mine did not eat for 2 weeks and some were extremely thin after that. They are now getting back their fat.

I have read about the pH treatment but you need very soft water and good pH monitoring to do that. Not easy.

I am glad to know that tetracycline did not kill your biofilter.




Mine had the same symptoms,but they did eat at the time. I am sure they would have stopped eventually. They were not eating like they should but they did eat. I too was told PP was a great treatment by a breeder and that they use it all the time over seas. Its fast and when it use right not harmful at all to your fish,but it will kill your bio. Jack wattley said that lowering PH to 4.0 and raising water temp would do just as well as any Medication out.

And yes tetra will not kill the Bio. I use tetracycline by AFI and it was great,but not cheap.

Take care

Kyle

[kpotter2]

No Problem, we are all here to help when ever we can. One way or the other.

I was told by Al after 4 days at most you should see an improvement it can take some time some times. I for one don't have alot of discus to just let them wast away for 4 days, but breeders do and that is why they are the best for that.

Just to give you a idea about what some breeders expect.

Kyle

[kpotter2]

Nite

[frenchie100]

If only it would! no joke.

And you're the one talking, when you fried your fishes. At least I saved mine so I did the right thing obviously.


Eddie is a very well respected member of this forum who has helped countless members with their problems. It is one thing for you to constantly be arguing with the most knowledgeable people on here but to go as low as saying that he fried his fish, frankly pathetic and really shows the type of human being you are.

What happened to Eddie and his heaters was not something anyone could have predicted. What you have done, on the other hand, is the voluntary infliction of suffering to your fish with your chemical warfare!

So as to say that you did the right thing- absolutely NOT! A lot of people on here would agree that what you did is NOT recommended and should not be advised.

It is completely irresponsible...

Wish you all the luck with your fish, hopefully they don't have irrepairable kidney or liver damage.

-Julie

[Daniella]

My fish are fine and doing great. I did the right thing to save them. If they do have kidney damage it will be from the Quick cure, surely NOT from the permanganate potassium, if you know anything about it, you will know it does not affect the kidney or liver of the fish. It is the safest thing to use as it does not affect the fish internaly, as opposed to all these poisons in Quick cure which are EXTREMELY TOXIC!

The worse chimical that was a war zone was what he suggested to the other poster her who's in the same boat as I was and who's quick cure did zip.

Just go look at the other post at the top of this forum and see if quick cure helped that poor guy who's having the same problem as I did.

Some people here might have better knowledge on discus, but they have no experience with this disease. what to expect then?

I raised fish for years and never had such disease. I had no idea how to treat it and came here for help. All I found was advise to use Quick cure and just plain cinisme and flaming when I decided to go other route, route which finaly SAVED my fish.

kidney damage?? I surely hope not but if they do have it, I will surely know they got it from using Quick cure.

As for the frying of the fish, he brought it on himself by constantly attacking me or trying to discredit me on the other post. I don't have the feelling that he's trying to help at all since all that ridiculous bickering and childish behavior is not helping those poor fish.

I may not be the best reference here and the most knowledgeble about discus, but I know what I just got through and I know why my fish survived. I could see them improve instantly with PP. All the bickering and cinical comments I got from some people here along the way is not helping anything or anyone.

If I did not do the right thing, my fish would be dead by now and if you look at the other thread, you will see I am NOT alone in that situation. Please stop advising Quick cure for every possible problem. It's dangerous and just delay proper treatment and making the fish even more weak.

BTW, Eddie is one who absolutely recommanded trichlorfon med for fluke problem. Go figure. That's one of the ingredient in parasite clear, along with prazi and metro.

As for the frying of the fish, he keep trying to discredit me because I don't have much experience with discus, although I do have long experience with fish and breeding them, so he kind of brought it to himself. That pretty much show that even people who have knowledge about discus can make mistakes.








Eddie is a very well respected member of this forum who has helped countless members with their problems. It is one thing for you to constantly be arguing with the most knowledgeable people on here but to go as low as saying that he fried his fish, frankly pathetic and really shows the type of human being you are.

What happened to Eddie and his heaters was not something anyone could have predicted. What you have done, on the other hand, is the voluntary infliction of suffering to your fish with your chemical warfare!

So as to say that you did the right thing- absolutely NOT! A lot of people on here would agree that what you did is NOT recommended and should not be advised.

It is completely irresponsible...

Wish you all the luck with your fish, hopefully they don't have irrepairable kidney or liver damage.

-Julie

[seanyuki]

PP will damage the internal organs of the fish....guess you didn't know that lol......other hobbyists can confirm this.....I think it's your first time using PP with the help of others guided you through out the treatment....so do not brag about your knowledge about Potassium Permangate..


Cheers
Francis:)

[Daniella]

Please point me to a professional reference on that. lol

Surely at the level we use it it is harmless. It does not burn the gill even, much less affect internal organ with such low concentration for only 4 hours. If you have proof that it does damage as such concentration, then by all means, point me to it.

I have read tons of reference about PP and none mentioned this.

The only damage it can do is burn gill if too strong.

As for the PP treatment, I was the one who decided to use it after reading about the discus plague. No one here or nothing I read here guided me on using this to cure my fish illness.

The only thing I was recommanded here was Quick cure which nearly killed my fish and did not help one bit.

Here is a study that show the long term effect of concentration of PP for 4 to 8 weeks:

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/54/1/177

"suggesting that acute (typically less than 1 week) treatment of channel catfish with PM would not significantly affect fish health."

here you go.



PP will damage the internal organs of the fish....guess you didn't know that lol......other hobbyists can confirm this.....I think it's your first time using PP with the help of others guided you through out the treatment....so do not brag about your knowledge about Potassium Permangate..


Cheers
Francis:)

[seanyuki]

Please complete the questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste)

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started





2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)






3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. ....Include dosages and duration of treatment.





Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?



6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____

- ph _____

- ammonia reading ____

- nitrite reading ____

- nitrate reading ____

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently




You should have started the post as follows with photos........white mucus all over ....by helping you ....first need photos....are we suppose to guess what is white fungus looks like.....secondly did you consult the seller about medications....fish may may have immune to that medications already b4 you have started Quick Cure.....need your comment on this.


Cheers
Francis:)

[seanyuki]

Another question....why did you use AP Quick Cure from the start.?

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu111/aiseanyuki_2009/th_AP_pro_sub3.gif (http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu111/aiseanyuki_2009/AP_pro_sub3.gif)

QuICK Cure is the fastest known treatment for Ick. When fish are observed with the white sugar like spots covering the fish, QuICK Cure is the product of choice. It can also be used to treat symptoms that include gasping for air, flicking against rocks and the grey-white slime that covers sick fish. QuICk Cure also treats mild fluke and body fungus outbreaks as well as protozoan parasite illnesses such as costia, chilodonella and trichodina. It also has the ability to control lymphocystis in just a few days. Although lymphocystis is truly a virus, QuICK Cure does not kill the virus but makes the environment of the aquarium so the disease can not flourish. Apply QuICK Cure once every 24
hours according to the dosing chart on the label. QuICK Cure typically cures within 48 hours however the treatment can be repeated in 48 hours if necessary. The aquarium water will turn light blue during treatment. This is a temporary condition and will disappear in a few days. Safe for freshwater and saltwater aquariums. Will not harm most aquatic plants.



> Powerful anti-parasite medication that cures Ick in 2 days!!

> Ideal for Freshwater and Marine aquariums

> Will not effect biological systems



Shake Well Before Using
Before administering any medication, it is wise to check your water quality levels to ensure they are within their acceptable ranges. Remove carbon from filter before use. Add 1 drop per gallon daily for all fish except those of the Tetra group. FOR TETRA: Add 1 drop per 2 gallons daily. FOR MARINE FISH: Add 1 drop per gallon daily in a bare aquarium. Replace carbon 24 hours after last treatment. Maximum dosage: 3 daily treatments. If further medication is required, perform a 25% water change before administering another treatment cycle. Water will turn blue during treatment. This is a temporary condition and will disappear in a few days. Change 50% of water at any sign of distress during treatment.

DOSAGE FOR FISH EXCEPT TETRAS:
1 ml treats 18 gallons
1 teaspoon treats 90 gallons
1 capful treats 250 gallons
1 ounce treats 500 gallons

DOSAGE FOR TETRAS, SENSITIVE & SCALELESS FISH:
1 ml treats 36 gallons
1 teaspoon treats 180 gallons
1 capful treats 500 gallons
1 ounce treats 1000 gallons

WARNINGS
Do not use on: baby whales, Elephant Nose, shrimps, snails, living rock or invertebrates. For aquarium use only. Keep out of the reach of children. Do not use on fish intended for human consumption. Not for human or drug use. Do not exceed recommended dosage. May stain silicone sealant and aquarium decorations. If swallowed, seek medical attention immediately and take product label with you. This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer.


Did you follow the whole procedures.?..........medications none are perfect....always trails & errors.....following others ides here is just a guideline not a remedy to your solution.


Cheers
Francis:)

[Roxanne]

..

And you're the one talking, when you fried your fishes. At least I saved mine so I did the right thing obviously.

.

that does it...:mad:......is this kind of thing necessary to make your point Daniella? We don't like those kind of vibes around here.

...to this day, you still don't know what you are doing/did do/should do/saw/didn't see/what worked/what didn't..., one minute you know what you saw with the scope, next minute you don't, so save your criticism for your psychotherapist....and, best not to go around the forum advising people with sick fish to throw PP at them.


Roxanne

[Graham]

back to funny again.......Daniella I can assure you after being in the fish hobby for 49 years both as a hobbyist and a retailer, that more people and experienced people; have killed more fish with PP than they ever have QC. I can also assure that QC has cured more fish than PP ever has. I can also assure that QC is a hell of a lot safer than PP.

QC is probably the best all round shotgun chem there is and the combination of formalin and malachite green far exceeds the chems ability individually.

PP, while I don't think it affects the fish internally as it's not well absorb does affect them externally. I can assure you that if you were to examine thier gill lammllae after treatments you would see hyperplasia.

Even the articles you linked to refers to recovery.


These data demonstrate that minimal changes in sublethal effects occur in fish following 0.5–2.0 mg/L PM treatment after 4 weeks, but recovery from adverse effects is observed by 8 weeks, suggesting that acute (typically less than 1 week) treatment of channel catfish with PM would not significantly affect fish health.

here's a little more tidbits


Paper published Annual Meeting World Aquaculture Society 2002 page 81, by A.M. Darwish (et. al.)
• The gills of fish exposed to 0.44 ppm concentration of KMnO4 for 36 hours had mild hypertophy and spongiosis; lesions were not apparent 2 days after exposure. The results demonstrated that exposure to 0.44 ppm PP for 36 hours causes mild lesions and recovery occurs within 48 h post-exposure.
• Gills of fish exposed to 1.3 ppm and 2.2 ppm for 36 hours had extensive hyperplasia, epithelial hypertophy and necrosis, lamellar fusion, leukocytic infiltration and obliteration of the interlamellar space with an inflammatory exudate containing necrotic epithelial cells.
• The gills exposed to 1.3 ppm and 2.2 ppm for 36 h appeared normal at 8 days post-exposure.
• Roddy’s comment: Low level PP treatment at levels in the 0.5 ppm to 1 ppm range for a few hours or even a full 24 hours will do no permanent damage to the fish.
Journal of the World Aquaculture Society. 35(1):55-60.
• Hybrid striped bass juveniles were exposed to KMnO4 in a series of static toxicity tests in waters composed of filtered (75 µm) well water or filtered well water diluted with deionized water.
• Estimates of mean 24-h LC50 (median lethal concentration) were 4.47 and 2.97 mg/L KMnO4 in waters having total alkalinities of 109 and 213 mg/L (as CaCO3), respectively.
• Data from the present study demonstrate that the acute toxicity of KMnO4 to hybrid striped bass juveniles is lower in waters of lower total alkalinity and total hardness. The results indicate that hybrid striped bass juveniles are tolerant to therapeutically relevant concentrations of KMnO4 and such treatments in low alkalinity waters are safer than treatments at higher alkalinity

You've been given good advice based on what's been presented and haven't really followed any of it as it's been given. I'm amazed that some of what you've done hasn't outright killed your fish........

Anyway I think before you go recommending PP and claiming that QC is posion based on your extremely limited knowlege you really ought to think twiice!

G

[frenchie100]

My fish are fine and doing great. I did the right thing to save them. If they do have kidney damage it will be from the Quick cure, surely NOT from the permanganate potassium, if you know anything about it, you will know it does not affect the kidney or liver of the fish. It is the safest thing to use as it does not affect the fish internaly, as opposed to all these poisons in Quick cure which are EXTREMELY TOXIC!

The worse chimical that was a war zone was what he suggested to the other poster her who's in the same boat as I was and who's quick cure did zip.

Just go look at the other post at the top of this forum and see if quick cure helped that poor guy who's having the same problem as I did.

Some people here might have better knowledge on discus, but they have no experience with this disease. what to expect then?

I raised fish for years and never had such disease. I had no idea how to treat it and came here for help. All I found was advise to use Quick cure and just plain cinisme and flaming when I decided to go other route, route which finaly SAVED my fish.

kidney damage?? I surely hope not but if they do have it, I will surely know they got it from using Quick cure.

As for the frying of the fish, he brought it on himself by constantly attacking me or trying to discredit me on the other post. I don't have the feelling that he's trying to help at all since all that ridiculous bickering and childish behavior is not helping those poor fish.

I may not be the best reference here and the most knowledgeble about discus, but I know what I just got through and I know why my fish survived. I could see them improve instantly with PP. All the bickering and cinical comments I got from some people here along the way is not helping anything or anyone.

If I did not do the right thing, my fish would be dead by now and if you look at the other thread, you will see I am NOT alone in that situation. Please stop advising Quick cure for every possible problem. It's dangerous and just delay proper treatment and making the fish even more weak.

BTW, Eddie is one who absolutely recommanded trichlorfon med for fluke problem. Go figure. That's one of the ingredient in parasite clear, along with prazi and metro.

As for the frying of the fish, he keep trying to discredit me because I don't have much experience with discus, although I do have long experience with fish and breeding them, so he kind of brought it to himself. That pretty much show that even people who have knowledge about discus can make mistakes.

Nobody on here suggested to anyone the chemical warefare that you have don. Let's break it down a little:
(from one of your other posts- my fish can't keep it's balance)

04/30/09- the previous weekend you used prazipro
04/30/09- you transfer you fish to do a Wormer plus-Flubendazole treatment
04/30/09-You start using quick cure at 1/2 dose- and you mention that sometimes you use RO for WCs and sometimes you don't :confused:.
05/01/09- You sart tetracycline
05/01/09- Added a full dose of quick cure
05/02/09-you mention that you think there might (?) be tetracycline in the water left :confused:- still treating with quick cure
05/03/09- tetracycline to Potassium Permanganate 4 hour bath- back into tetracycline after that!!!!

PP bath daily for how many days?!

And that's only until 05/04/09-

Now that's what I call chemical warefare! No one ever advised you or anyone else on this forum to do that! You were strictly advised to you quick cure alone!! But you went your own route by mixing all these different meds, but now you have convinced yourself that quick cure caused all of this! It's complete nonesense!

The reason people try to discredit you is because the advice you are giving to people is completely irresponsible and dangerous, and as members on this forum everyone has a responsibility to make sure that the advice given to other members is safe.

As far as your kidney and liver damage- any of those meds or new chemical compounds created by mixing the meds together ( whether it is inside the fish or in the water) could have done it.

Your affirmations do not have a leg to stand on...

-Julie

[Daniella]

nope, I used prazipro when I first got the fish ,about a month before.

the wormer plus was given to one fish in a QT not to all the fish.

When they become sick, there was no med in the water for a long time and all my fish had had before was prazipro, and that was a few weeks before. They had flukes.

When they became sick, the man from the petshop gave me tetracycline and said to use that for 7 days. that was in my main tank 120 gallon.

then here I was suggested to use quick cure so I transfered my fish to the QT and give them quick cure at half dose the first day, then after that 3 days at full dose, until I found my red melon floating after 4 days of Quick cure. It was not the tetracycline that did this as they only had been in tetracycline for about a day.

I then stopped the treatment with Quick cure and put my fish back in the main tank with tetracycline. There was probably not much of it left since tetracycline only has 24 hours life and I had done some water change. It was not improving after 4 hours so I gave it a PP bath at 10ppm for 3 minutes appx. I then put it back in the main tank with tetracycline and without half an hour it was back to normal.

I then removed ALL the fish from the QT and did a total water change with RO water and gave them a PP bath. From that point they started to improve with visible results each time.

I only use RO for treatment with PP and to do water change on my main tank. I mix it with regular water about 2/3.

The quick cure did not help my fish one bit, nor did the tetracycline. both were advised to me by supposable knowledgable people. I then gave up on all these med and when the PP route wihch saved my fish, all of them.

the tetracycline was in the main tank and the quick cure in the QT, so they never mixed at any point. I never mix med.

I did not want to do the Quick cure treatment in the main tank because I did nto know if there was still tetracycline active in there, why I used a QT.

To make a long story short, it was when I started to use PP that my fish improved.

In case you doubt anything, just look at the other thread where a man is having the same exact disease I was having, used Quick cure ofr 3 days at full dose and it did not help his fish one bit.

PP for 2 days, then one day rest, then pp for 3 days.

You shoudl see my fish now. They are back to life, healthy and happy fish. They would be dead if I had not done the PP baths, there is not a bit of doubt about that one.

My melon would be dead if I had left it in the quick cure, no doubt about that one either.

The bad advise I got here was the quick cure, which nearly killed my fish and did nothing at all to help them.

the only advise I gave to that person is to use PP baths which is the only thing at this point that will save his fish. YOu can see for yourself that quick cure is NOT working and his fish are getting worse each day. Are you people blind?

The only nonsense is to continue with a med that does not work one bit and that is delaying the fish recovery. period.

Your affirmation does not have any leg to stand on at all. As for my leg Hello???, the proof is in the pudding..my fish are alive and healthy, eating like pigs and being back from a really serious disease.

If I had done things the wrong, they would all be dead, now there is no doubt about that. One came very close to dead, but that was because of the Quick cure as this was the only med in the tank in wich the fish was.








Nobody on here suggested to anyone the chemical warefare that you have don. Let's break it down a little:
(from one of your other posts- my fish can't keep it's balance)

04/30/09- the previous weekend you used prazipro
04/30/09- you transfer you fish to do a Wormer plus-Flubendazole treatment
04/30/09-You start using quick cure at 1/2 dose- and you mention that sometimes you use RO for WCs and sometimes you don't :confused:.
05/01/09- You sart tetracycline
05/01/09- Added a full dose of quick cure
05/02/09-you mention that you think there might (?) be tetracycline in the water left :confused:- still treating with quick cure
05/03/09- tetracycline to Potassium Permanganate 4 hour bath- back into tetracycline after that!!!!

PP bath daily for how many days?!

And that's only until 05/04/09-

Now that's what I call chemical warefare! No one ever advised you or anyone else on this forum to do that! You were strictly advised to you quick cure alone!! But you went your own route by mixing all these different meds, but now you have convinced yourself that quick cure caused all of this! It's complete nonesense!

The reason people try to discredit you is because the advice you are giving to people is completely irresponsible and dangerous, and as members on this forum everyone has a responsibility to make sure that the advice given to other members is safe.

As far as your kidney and liver damage- any of those meds or new chemical compounds created by mixing the meds together ( whether it is inside the fish or in the water) could have done it.

Your affirmations do not have a leg to stand on...

-Julie

[Daniella]

I fthey did kill their fish with PP is because they did not use the correct dosage. That is human error, not the product.

And if you do not have any statistics about this, then I won't take your word for it.

I cannot beleive that one would kill a fish with PP at 2ppm for 4 hours. No way I am beleiving that. I even has a 2 inches baby discus that made it through the treatment all relaxed and well. NO sign of stress what so ever.

That fish is eating like a pig now and back to health. He's just a small baby.

I am sure they don't have any gill problem because they are breathing better than ever. Very slow and relaxed. I can see an healthy fish when I see one. fish with gill problem breath fast.

None of the 10 fish treated died, none of the 10 fish treated have any gill problem, they are all breathing with the normal slow speed. they have never looked so healthy and relaxed, with better appetite that they never had since I got them.

I posted proof that PP does not affect a fish organs, so not there is no doubt about this especialy at that concentration.

so what would you recommand at this point to this poor guy who's fish are dying after 3 days of Quick cure that did zip to help them???

what would you give those fish next? let them die? do what? don't you honestly think that if PP worked to save my fish from that disease that it would not do the same for his fish?


the only thing that nearly killed my fish was quick cure. there is no doubt about that since it was in there for 4 days and that was the only med in there, plus and that's a MAJOR plus, it regained its life when I removed it from that med and gave it a PP bath.

Like I said, the proof is in the pudding, nothing to dispute here, only facts.

I too am surprised that I managed to bring it back and revive it after the quick cure treatment. Very surprised and happy about it.



back to funny again.......Daniella I can assure you after being in the fish hobby for 49 years both as a hobbyist and a retailer, that more people and experienced people; have killed more fish with PP than they ever have QC. I can also assure that QC has cured more fish than PP ever has. I can also assure that QC is a hell of a lot safer than PP.

QC is probably the best all round shotgun chem there is and the combination of formalin and malachite green far exceeds the chems ability individually.

PP, while I don't think it affects the fish internally as it's not well absorb does affect them externally. I can assure you that if you were to examine thier gill lammllae after treatments you would see hyperplasia.

Even the articles you linked to refers to recovery.



here's a little more tidbits



You've been given good advice based on what's been presented and haven't really followed any of it as it's been given. I'm amazed that some of what you've done hasn't outright killed your fish........

Anyway I think before you go recommending PP and claiming that QC is posion based on your extremely limited knowlege you really ought to think twiice!

G

[Graham]

''...The bad advise I got here was the quick cure, which nearly killed my fish and did nothing at all to help them...''

:smash: Unforntunately Daniella this is where your complete lack of experience comes into play...the QC did not nearly kill your fish unless you blew the dose. It may not have helped them, as all pathogens are not affected the same way with different drugs or chemicals.

You were looking for magic bullets and they really don't exist...because ...guess what.... the PP might not have work either. You and the people on SD, including me, have no real idea what was really wrong with your fish...we give advice based on the info provided...if it doesn't work them we back track and start over.

As I said before don't give advice to use PP as you don't have the experience from what we've all seen

G

[Eddie]

Daniella,


BTW, Eddie is one who absolutely recommanded trichlorfon med for fluke problem. Go figure. That's one of the ingredient in parasite clear, along with prazi and metro.

I'm trying to figure out what this statement has to do with anything? Are you saying that your fish now have flukes and that justifies you using it. So what is it exactly that you are using the Metro and Prazi for, just to shoot in the dark like you have been.

One thing you will never understand, I guarantee the F&MG did its job. Sick fish do not recover in hours, nothing is immediate. So all the dozens of meds you used had no purpose that you knew of anyway. Actually nobody knows without a scope. Since you used every med known to man, you have no idea that the PP had any purpose what so ever. Just because now your fish are eating and look better. There was no window of rest period from one drug to another. Keep on recommending PP to hobbyists, since now you are the expert in discus disease treatment.

The one thing I pointed out early was, somebody who has 100% of their threads starting the disease/medication section, probably doesn't need to be giving any advice, and members would be smart to not take it.

Eddie

[Daniella]

the vibes around here are not good to begin with. When someone is playing a game of trying to discredit someone else and when that person suggest to search thread from the person who give advise, then I would say he's been asking for it. I did follow the advise and did the search.

It was nasty to try to discredit someone based on the short experience with discus, without even knowing about the person. I felt he was just playing nasty just to discredit no matter what. voila.

But none of you will see that since you are all a click of friends who have known each other for a long time, and backing up each other no matter what.

I see all this easily since I am new here, but I won't let someone being nasty and not do anything about it.



that does it...:mad:......is this kind of thing necessary to make your point Daniella? We don't like those kind of vibes around here.

...to this day, you still don't know what you are doing/did do/should do/saw/didn't see/what worked/what didn't..., one minute you know what you saw with the scope, next minute you don't, so save your criticism for your psychotherapist....and, best not to go around the forum advising people with sick fish to throw PP at them.


Roxanne

[Daniella]

big load of BS. If you want to verify this, just ask this poor guy to do nothing and let his fish "recover" and see if that help. See if Quick cure did its job!

I can garantee you that quick cure did not do anything for my fish, zip zip zip, nothing.

After 4 days I shoudl have seen improvement of some sort but they were getting worse and worse each day. It is only after using PP that they started to improve and that is what revived my dying fish. Beleive me it was very near to be dead.

Now I do not beleive that it was a parasite that was the disease. It could have been bacterial or viral.

I beleive that poor guy in the other thread is going to lose all of his fish if he keep with Quick cure but by all means..lets ask him to do so and we'll see soon enough now will we?

He did nothing else than to follow your advise and that did not improve his fish one bit, nor did it improved mine.

now 2 situations very similar with pretty much the same disease, and quick cure does not do zip after 3 days and 4 days. A med that is working will show releive at least and the fish would not get worse. If the fish are getting worse, it show that they are not receiving any releive and what they have is not affected by that med.

on other end, PP did show results very quickly, and I could see the releive only after about 2 hours in the PP treatment. Fins were unclamping and the fish seemed much more relaxed and normal. that's results.

You are not in any position to guarantee anything.







Daniella,



I'm trying to figure out what this statement has to do with anything? Are you saying that your fish now have flukes and that justifies you using it. So what is it exactly that you are using the Metro and Prazi for, just to shoot in the dark like you have been.

One thing you will never understand, I guarantee the F&MG did its job. Sick fish do not recover in hours, nothing is immediate. So all the dozens of meds you used had no purpose that you knew of anyway. Actually nobody knows without a scope. Since you used every med known to man, you have no idea that the PP had any purpose what so ever. Just because now your fish are eating and look better. There was no window of rest period from one drug to another. Keep on recommending PP to hobbyists, since now you are the expert in discus disease treatment.

The one thing I pointed out early was, somebody who has 100% of their threads starting the disease/medication section, probably doesn't need to be giving any advice, and members would be smart to not take it.

Eddie

[Graham]

I fthey did kill their fish with PP is because they did not use the correct dosage. That is human error, not the product.

And if you do not have any statistics about this, then I won't take your word for it.

I cannot beleive that one would kill a fish with PP at 2ppm for 4 hours. No way I am beleiving that. I even has a 2 inches baby discus that made it through the treatment all relaxed and well. NO sign of stress what so ever.

That fish is eating like a pig now and back to health. He's just a small baby.

I am sure they don't have any gill problem because they are breathing better than ever. Very slow and relaxed. I can see an healthy fish when I see one. fish with gill problem breath fast.

None of the 10 fish treated died, none of the 10 fish treated have any gill problem, they are all breathing with the normal slow speed. they have never looked so healthy and relaxed, with better appetite that they never had since I got them.

I posted proof that PP does not affect a fish organs, so not there is no doubt about this especialy at that concentration.

so what would you recommand at this point to this poor guy who's fish are dying after 3 days of Quick cure that did zip to help them???

what would you give those fish next? let them die? do what? don't you honestly think that if PP worked to save my fish from that disease that it would not do the same for his fish?


the only thing that nearly killed my fish was quick cure. there is no doubt about that since it was in there for 4 days and that was the only med in there, plus and that's a MAJOR plus, it regained its life when I removed it from that med and gave it a PP bath.

Like I said, the proof is in the pudding, nothing to dispute here, only facts.

I too am surprised that I managed to bring it back and revive it after the quick cure treatment. Very surprised and happy about it.

Jeez D You don't need to take my word or anyone elses for that matter for anything and you haven't :0 anyway maybe all the Permanganate Dioxide precipitated out and clogged their gills at 2ppm or maybe their gills are rotting with disease or coated with mucus from the parasites.... then they get pushed over the edge...like I said complete lack of experience on your part.

Yup hobbyist blow doses all the time.. go by colour, don't know exact gallons too much decorations, temp is too high, O2 is too low....or some supposed expert with no experience on a web site told them to use PP without knowing exactly what the problem was.....get my point

G

[Eddie]

You are not in any position to guarantee anything.

And you are with all the meds you used, LOL

I forgot, you have a background in discus disease treatment now.

Eddie

[Daniella]

yes I did follow the direction. One day one I used half dose because I had tetra in there. then I moved the tetra to another tank and used full dose for 3 more day without any effect. In fact my fish were all getting worse each day. And I mean much worse. I do not beleive what they had was a parasite since after 4 days of that strong med it would have given some releive. Nothing.

Only the PP baths did bring releive and that was a quick cure! pun intended.

I could see them getting better and relax after each bath. PP was the cure for what my fish had, no doubt about that.






Another question....why did you use AP Quick Cure from the start.?

http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu111/aiseanyuki_2009/th_AP_pro_sub3.gif (http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu111/aiseanyuki_2009/AP_pro_sub3.gif)

QuICK Cure is the fastest known treatment for Ick. When fish are observed with the white sugar like spots covering the fish, QuICK Cure is the product of choice. It can also be used to treat symptoms that include gasping for air, flicking against rocks and the grey-white slime that covers sick fish. QuICk Cure also treats mild fluke and body fungus outbreaks as well as protozoan parasite illnesses such as costia, chilodonella and trichodina. It also has the ability to control lymphocystis in just a few days. Although lymphocystis is truly a virus, QuICK Cure does not kill the virus but makes the environment of the aquarium so the disease can not flourish. Apply QuICK Cure once every 24
hours according to the dosing chart on the label. QuICK Cure typically cures within 48 hours however the treatment can be repeated in 48 hours if necessary. The aquarium water will turn light blue during treatment. This is a temporary condition and will disappear in a few days. Safe for freshwater and saltwater aquariums. Will not harm most aquatic plants.



> Powerful anti-parasite medication that cures Ick in 2 days!!

> Ideal for Freshwater and Marine aquariums

> Will not effect biological systems



Shake Well Before Using
Before administering any medication, it is wise to check your water quality levels to ensure they are within their acceptable ranges. Remove carbon from filter before use. Add 1 drop per gallon daily for all fish except those of the Tetra group. FOR TETRA: Add 1 drop per 2 gallons daily. FOR MARINE FISH: Add 1 drop per gallon daily in a bare aquarium. Replace carbon 24 hours after last treatment. Maximum dosage: 3 daily treatments. If further medication is required, perform a 25% water change before administering another treatment cycle. Water will turn blue during treatment. This is a temporary condition and will disappear in a few days. Change 50% of water at any sign of distress during treatment.

DOSAGE FOR FISH EXCEPT TETRAS:
1 ml treats 18 gallons
1 teaspoon treats 90 gallons
1 capful treats 250 gallons
1 ounce treats 500 gallons

DOSAGE FOR TETRAS, SENSITIVE & SCALELESS FISH:
1 ml treats 36 gallons
1 teaspoon treats 180 gallons
1 capful treats 500 gallons
1 ounce treats 1000 gallons

WARNINGS
Do not use on: baby whales, Elephant Nose, shrimps, snails, living rock or invertebrates. For aquarium use only. Keep out of the reach of children. Do not use on fish intended for human consumption. Not for human or drug use. Do not exceed recommended dosage. May stain silicone sealant and aquarium decorations. If swallowed, seek medical attention immediately and take product label with you. This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer.


Did you follow the whole procedures.?..........medications none are perfect....always trails & errors.....following others ides here is just a guideline not a remedy to your solution.


Cheers
Francis:)

[Graham]

''....PP was the cure for what my fish had, no doubt about that....''

what you are not realizing is that it just of easily could have done nothing for whatever the problem was/is or it could killed them...you got lucky, it seems to have fixed whatever the problem was....experience didn't fix this problem

[Daniella]

I did save my fish and I know very well what treatment saved them.

I have a bunch of healthy fish to prove it and I have not lost a fish from such a serious disease. I guess that speak for itself.

BTW, did you notice that your suggestion did not help that poor guy either? what do you have to say about that one? should he keep up with a treatment that is not working? should he do what I suggest and use PP baths? ARe you not starting to doubt something here a little since it's not working, hello??

I do have a background if getting over such grave disease and saving my fish from it. That surely beat your experience with such disease since you have no experience with it. If you had any experiece with this, you would know better than to use quick cure and you would not have recommanded it because it's not working.

You have discus for what? 4 or 5 years? I see you were a beginer when you got here in 2004, asking newbee questions that I knew the answers for many years. I am raising and breeding fish (american chiclids) for over 20 years.

Yes I am new to discus, but not to fish and aquarium. I was a member of a reputated society here in Montreal working with a biologist at the Montreal public aquarium. You try to discredit people when you know nothing about them. I wish I would not have listened too these bad advises that were given to me with the Quick cure and the tetracycline and went straight for the PP. Much less adverse effects.




And you are with all the meds you used, LOL

I forgot, you have a background in discus disease treatment now.

Eddie

[Daniella]

How do you explain the fish floating in it? I did the full dose as indicated on the bottle.

I had filtration and a 6 inches air stone. No other possible explanation.

there is a magic bullet and it's PP, prove is right there with my fish.

It's very obvious that PP bath worked because I could see the fish unclamping fins only after 2 hours in it, that is obvious sign of releive.

the pp bath work because PP will catch much more disease than any other med around here. It will help with bacteria, fungal and parasite disease.

I am asking again, what exactly would you recommande to this poor guy in the other thread? if not PP then what??

and you are wrong, I do have experience with PP now, after using it successfully to save my fish.

what you'll all seen is that I saved my fish with the proper treatment, you just don't want to admit it because that would mean you were wrong. The same way eddie does not want to admit that he gave the wrong treatment to the man in the other threat, and that treatment is not working.

I beleive that this had just become a "who's right and who's wrong" type of dispute, without any reguard to those poor fish health.









''...The bad advise I got here was the quick cure, which nearly killed my fish and did nothing at all to help them...''

:smash: Unforntunately Daniella this is where your complete lack of experience comes into play...the QC did not nearly kill your fish unless you blew the dose. It may not have helped them, as all pathogens are not affected the same way with different drugs or chemicals.

You were looking for magic bullets and they really don't exist...because ...guess what.... the PP might not have work either. You and the people on SD, including me, have no real idea what was really wrong with your fish...we give advice based on the info provided...if it doesn't work them we back track and start over.

As I said before don't give advice to use PP as you don't have the experience from what we've all seen

G

[Eddie]

If you want to get into a pissing contest, I became a member of the forum in 2004, been keeping discus for over a decade (read my bio). First med I ever used was Formalin. Brought my fish back from the dead. ;)

So with your expert experience in medicating your American Cichlids for 20 years, thats great. Discus are not American Cichlids, in case you havent figured that out.

I am not an expert in meds or discus but I have done my research reading books, reading online and through experienced members of this forum.

You have a long way to go and now since your fish are doing so well, if they last a month longer, I'll be surprised. Hope you have another order ready and make sure you stock up on the meds since you are all out. ;)

Eddie

[merk175]

unfortunatley everyone has moved to this thread and I can't seem to get any answers to my recent questions. Basshead, Graham....any chance you can stop by my thread for an update? thanks.

[Daniella]

Well, for a guy how was so knowlegable, you surely did ask a lot of newbee question.

My fish will be just fine, so do not worry about them. I am not the one killing my fish if I may remind you!

I guess you say that because you have a good experience in killing fish.



If you want to get into a pissing contest, I became a member of the forum in 2004, been keeping discus for over a decade (read my bio). First med I ever used was Formalin. Brought my fish back from the dead. ;)

So with your expert experience in medicating your American Cichlids for 20 years, thats great. Discus are not American Cichlids, in case you havent figured that out.

I am not an expert in meds or discus but I have done my research reading books, reading online and through experienced members of this forum.

You have a long way to go and now since your fish are doing so well, if they last a month longer, I'll be surprised. Hope you have another order ready and make sure you stock up on the meds since you are all out. ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

unfortunatley everyone has moved to this thread and I can't seem to get any answers to my recent questions. Basshead, Graham....any chance you can stop by my thread for an update? thanks.

Sorry Merk, sent you 2 PMs

Eddie

[Eddie]

Well, for a guy how was so knowlegable, you surely did ask a lot of newbee question.

My fish will be just fine, so do not worry about them. I am not the one killing my fish if I may remind you!

I guess you say that because you have a good experience in killing fish.

Very true, but not with chemicals. ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

neither do I. I have never killed a fish, period.



Very true, but not with chemicals. ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

neither do I. I have never killed a fish, period.

The chem war aint over, it will be back and you will jump to PP, GONE ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

I wish you good luck with your fish. I this point I think you have all the suggestions for possible treatment and you will be able to decide what to do based on how your fish react and if they are improving or not.

From reading about this disease, if untreated some fish will recover and after a week or 2 they will start to improve. Some will die from it. People have tried all sort of meds for it and some worked some did not.

If it is a virus it is what will happen and the fish immune system will fight it. YOu just have to keep what ever else from infecting your fish.

Anyway good luck, you know enough now to save them.



unfortunatley everyone has moved to this thread and I can't seem to get any answers to my recent questions. Basshead, Graham....any chance you can stop by my thread for an update? thanks.

[Graham]

the pp bath work because PP will catch much more disease than any other med around here. It will help with bacteria, fungal and parasite disease.

No it will not.....every chem has it place...that includes salt, formalin, malachite green, the combination, mythelene blue and the list goes on. there are no magic bullets

go get some experience

[Graham]

I wish you good luck with your fish. I this point I think you have all the suggestions for possible treatment and you will be able to decide what to do based on how your fish react and if they are improving or not.

From reading about this disease, if untreated some fish will recover and after a week or 2 they will start to improve. Some will die from it. People have tried all sort of meds for it and some worked some did not.

If it is a virus it is what will happen and the fish immune system will fight it. YOu just have to keep what ever else from infecting your fish.

Anyway good luck, you know enough now to save them.

You don't even know what anyones fish including your own has

[Daniella]

yes sure. PP will be in my tools as it is a very usefull treatment for a quick recovery.

It does catch pretty much all external disease and if done properly it does not have any adverse effect.



The chem war aint over, it will be back and you will jump to PP, GONE ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

yes sure. PP will be in my tools as it is a very usefull treatment for a quick recovery.

It does catch pretty much all external disease and if done properly it does not have any adverse effect.

Guess that doesn't mean you. ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

Very true, but I do know that much. I could not identify the parasite that look like costia under the microscope and gee I really wanted to find it. What I saw was tiny things moving fast, sort of vibrating. That was really much smaller at 400x than what I saw for costia at 400x.

I don't think it was a parasite though because I still can see it now in my water and my fish are not affected by that. I think it,s just part of usual micro organism in the water.

I wish I could have identified something bad in there and since my fish were in such bad condition, there should have been something to see from the sheer quantity of the bugs.. but no.

So I am guessing a virus or a bacteria. I beleive that it was not a parasite and that after 4 days of QC if it was parasites my fish would have got some type of releive.

This is why I think that PP is a better treatment because it catch far more things in such extremely urgent and virulent situation where the fish becoming very ill very fast.

It's a very fast cure for many things.



You don't even know what anyones fish including your own has

[Roxanne]

.. I do not beleive what they had was a parasite since after 4 days of that strong med it would have given some releive. Nothing.
... PP was the cure for what my fish had, no doubt about that.

Firstly, we may be friends, but it's because we support each other unconditionally, even if we don't always agree with each other.. The same support you were getting when you first arrived in the Disease Section. Strangers reaching out to strangers for support and help. We have to work through things with people sometimes. We were all trying to work through yours also. We have to ask questions, we cannot guess that you had actually already been treating your fish with three different meds, then when you have misled us by not providing the whole picture, you tell us we are wrong and basically stupid... I particularly liked the part where you asked me how I could judge what you had been doing when I didn't know what you had been doing, after you stated what you had been doing. :D I'm the first to admit, the written word can be open to interpretation and not always represent what a person means. But, your written word came off as snippy and rude, which is really rich coming from someone who is clueless and asking for FREE help. You asked a question, then when someone answers it, you tell them they are wrong. Maybe if you had been clear from the start about EXACTLY what you had been giving your fish, you would have got advice quite different. Meds take time to work. How do you know, the next advice you were to get would be to try PP? You don't. Because you were too busy trying every different med before you'd let even one do it's job. You expected an immediate result from each one of them. Now, you say it isn't parasites? But, you insisted you scoped parasites. You said you scoped costia too, and I would like you to tell me how you can come to the genuine conclusion you saw costia when, scientists need to gram stain for certainty? You slammed Graham which came close to getting you a flaming. What you say to me means absolutely zero in my universe, but, you took a low swipe at a beloved forum member Eddie, who has taken time from his life to help many people so don't be surprised you ruffled a few feathers there Daniella. It's too confusing and time consuming to go back over everything you said, but really Daniella, show some humility, or next time you will probably be on your own with your problems. I guarantee you will make more friends here that way. Even with your pissy attitude, people are still trying to help you where others can't be bothered, so, that should tell you, there isn't the "click" you think there is.

So, what exactly did PP cure? What exactly is/was wrong with your fish then? Or, are you still guessing? Those are rhetorical questions BTW.

Roxanne

[brewmaster15]

Hi Everyone,
Threads like this one really are depressing for me:(, talk about going off track on topic, facts, and egos! ..

and I think its gone far enough... This one is closed.


Regards all,


-al