water problem?

[MotoNC]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Hello all,

I'm having a problem with my discus, have lost several.

I have recently increased the amount of food I've been feeding. I've not feeding in the most consistent manner in terms of the specific time and number of times per day.

I have a marineland 360 filter (360gph and lots of eheim substrat pro) and two sponge filters, The marineland was thoroughly cycled and the sponge filters have been in the tank for a few weeks.

saw stress and dosed 1 tablespoon of salt/10gallons right away.

I made the mistake of thinking that my water parameters were fine and not checking them.

later I dosed with metro (possibly a very bad idea). I had not seen any gill clamping. I checked the water, a little ammonia, but just barely detectable with a tetra test kit ( did not show any change until the end of the 5 minute period.) Ph was normal, 7.

I did a large water change with no result, except more fish dying.

I checked for nitrites and they were present. DOH!

I've been doing 50% water changes twice daily and a overdosed of prime. Started using prime one day ag

The water parameters show good now but they are still very stressed, though I didn't loose any last night. I'm dosing 2 tablespoons salt/10gallons.

Is it possible that I hurt my biofilter by doing too many water changes? I haven't heard of this happening. It seems like if there was a larger bioload than the filter could handle, it would cause a spike in ammonia.

Could dosing the metro hurt the biological filter?

I just did a big water change with no additives.

Any suggestions on other things to do now and also in the future to prevent this happening are greatly appreciated. Checking my water immediately is already on the list




2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

dying, dark, darting, hiding under sponge filter. First just one or two, then all of them






3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Throughout with exception of last wc: salt- 1 - 2 tablepoons/ 10 gallons

1X: epsom salt at start of problem 1 tablespoon/ 10g

1X: metro, 1/2 teaspoon

for last 24 hours (with exception of last wc) 4x standard dose

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

55g, 1+month with no problems, 13 juvies 1-1.5 inches in length

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

bare bottom, 50-70% daily. Do not age water

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _83.5____

- ph __7.0___(6.7 out of tap)

- ammonia reading _0___

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading ____

- well water _ x___

- municipal water ____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No

[poconogal]

Have you checked your tap water? If you had more dying fish after a large WC, you may have nitrites in it, or some other chemical/pesticide, or even e-coli. Are you okay? That's a risk we take with using our well water, you never know when something could pollute your well.

[MotoNC]

yes, I checked my tap water as well and it was normal ph, no ammonia or nitrite.

Thanks for the suggestion

[MotoNC]

yes, I checked my tap water as well and it was normal ph, no ammonia or nitrite. I've been drinking the water out of the tap with no sickness

Thanks for the suggestion

[Daniella]

I don't think this is a water quality issue unless you have very high ammonia. I cycled my tank with discus in it and sometimes the ammonia was at .50 without noticing any ill effect on my fish. That was about 4 months ago and now the tank was cycled, but I just got the same ordeal as you got and wow, that was something really nasty.

I first tried 4 days of Quick Cure without any bit of improvement. then I started the permanganate potassium bath and that is what saved my fish. I did not lose fish from that horrible disease but I will only be relaxing when it will be a few weeks pass this. I just finish treating them and they are eating now.

they first stopped eating, stopped moving and huddle in a corner with clamped fins, then turned pitch black and were covered with white mucusand lastly the tail began to rot, plus there was that horrible stinky smell in my aquarium, on the fish and in the filters. I always liked the smell in my filters as it smell nice and some nature smell, but then this horrible smell took over everything. It's so bad that I wanted to throw up when breathing the air over the aquarium. After the second or third PP bath the tail stopped rotting. It did rot about half way as it goes very fast when it start to rot, but now it's growing back and the 2 fish that had tail rotting. One almost grew its tail back after only a week.

Try doing permanganate potassium baths and do that quick. It will save your fish. Make sure you do 2ppm concentration as this is a dangerous stuff, but it works.

For a 20 gallon aquarium, 145mg op PP powder previously diluted is enough.

the best way to do it is to mix one gram of PP powder in 1 liter of water (gram scale to mesure 1 gram precisely) and then take 145ml of this base solution and add it to 20 gallon. leave the fish for 4 hours minimum. It is good to clean the aquarium first and make sure it's not dirty or the stull will turn brown and be deactivated. can't use dechlorinator either as it will completely deactivate the PP (good way to deactivate it if needed!) and never use this with formaline as it is toxic mixed with formaline.

I have given mine 5 bath so far and that's what saved them all.

I was told it is costia, but I could not identify any parasites with my microscope so maybe it was costia, but maybe a virus that made the fish immune system go waky and then everything else took over. not sure. It could be a bacteria, a virus or a parasite but a PP bath will catch all of it.

This disease is really quick and quick action is required to save the fish.

Do the bath for 4 hours and if you notice the fish gasping for air or if they seem distress by the treatment, stop it by adding dechlorinator or a little tiny bit of H2O2, hydrogene peroxyde.

Mine were never stressed by this treatment, even when they were gravely ill.

don't use PP with salt, but you can return them in salty water after the treatment.




yes, I checked my tap water as well and it was normal ph, no ammonia or nitrite. I've been drinking the water out of the tap with no sickness

Thanks for the suggestion

[MotoNC]

Daniella,

I'm starting to doubt that it is a water problem.

I been doing massive water changes with no effect.

I'm going to contact a friend and see if I can get some pp. It's probably worth a shot, since I can't see them lasting to long in this condition :(

[MotoNC]

~ 6 hrs since large wc with no additives. They still look horrible.

I should've had some PP on hand :(

[Don Trinko]

Ammonia of 1 or 2 for a short time will not kill fish. Nitrites of 1 or 2 will not either. ( not good but not instantly fatel) Amaquel + and other chemicals will remove ammonia and nitrites.
Fish with internal parasites treatable by metro do not die quickly but usualy a long slow ilness leading to death.
You did not hurt your biofilter by WC unless there was clorine or cloramines in the water. Clorine or cloramines in the water will also kill the fish quickly. I would use prime/amaquel+ or something for now. They take out other toxins beside clorine/cloramine/ammonia/etc.
Do you have other fish and are they doing OK? This time of year fertilizer and pestisides sometimes get in well water. Don T.

[Eddie]

I'm still wondering why you dosed metro. You mentioned you upped your feeding and your fish started looking stressed. Hmmm, that goes hand in hand with water quality. The more you feed, the more waste is produced and the higher your bioload becomes. Your filters needed time to build up and you treat the fish with medication. Where did the meds just happen to jump in the picture. Any and all medications have a specific purpose and they have a time to be used. Your fish were fine, not sure what to tell you. Who directed you to meds?

Eddie

[MotoNC]

I was mistaken about one of the medications I was using. It was prazi, not metro.

Don T, I think you and ponocogal are on the right track about a possible cause. After such massive water changes, the water out of the tap is even more suspect. I live in a country suburb of charlotte, and there are farms in the area. I have a planted tank with no casualties, but there are not any fish as sensitive as discus either. I have been having pretty severe algae problems. Another knowledgeable friend on the forum theorized maybe phosphates or another runoff related toxin.

I plan on getting a detailed analysis of my water. I also need a more accurate and comprehensive test kit, any recommendations on this?

basshead you make a good point. Like I alluded to it was a stab in the dark, and so likely just an added stress. You point is well taken. I've read time and time again that the inexperienced often overreact, and I probably did that, knowing full and well that it was a danger.

Based on the advice I've been given, and my gut, I've decided to stop water changes and not add prime or salt. I believe I've played my hand at this point.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

[Eddie]

I was mistaken about one of the medications I was using. It was prazi, not metro.

Don T, I think you and ponocogal are on the right track about a possible cause. After such massive water changes, the water out of the tap is even more suspect. I live in a country suburb of charlotte, and there are farms in the area. I have a planted tank with no casualties, but there are not any fish as sensitive as discus either. I have been having pretty severe algae problems. Another knowledgeable friend on the forum theorized maybe phosphates or another runoff related toxin.

I plan on getting a detailed analysis of my water. I also need a more accurate and comprehensive test kit, any recommendations on this?

basshead you make a good point. Like I alluded to it was a stab in the dark, and so likely just an added stress. You point is well taken. I've read time and time again that the inexperienced often overreact, and I probably did that, knowing full and well that it was a danger.

Based on the advice I've been given, and my gut, I've decided to stop water changes and not add prime or salt. I believe I've played my hand at this point.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

One thing to remember, many many people give advice on here. Even people who just started to keep discus. You'll find a million different opinions and suggestions. My only advice to you is to look into the background of those who you take advice from. ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

I doubt it as well. I went to 2 aquarium cycle with ammonia and nitrite peak with my young discus and they were fine.

I think you would need a lot of ammonia to kill them. I once had something like 1.0 of ammonia and that did not seem to bother them. Surely they had no skin problem.

Recently though I had the same symptomes as you did and my water quality was pristine. NO ammonia, nothing, just pure water. It begain after I purchased fishes and put them in QT. I must have cross contaminated something in the way because all my old fishes became ill very fast, just like yours. The new ones went through all this without much pain and one did not suffer anything at all.

Did you introduce new plants or fish recently?

In any case, your water change cannot do harm or your other fishes would be affected as well. Discus are not so sensitve as people say and if there was poison in the water then all fishes would be affected.

With my recent disease, none of the tetra were affected by any of it.

what I would suggest to you is to separate your fishes in a few groups, then try PP bath on one group and if that's going to help, you will see improvement after one or 2 treatments. It's very fast to heal them. I could see mine with fins unclamping and feeling better.

then you know it's working and it's what was needed.

I think doing nothing might not be the best way to go. I may be new to discus, but I had fishes for many years, more than 20 years. I was breeding american chiclids and have a few certificates to prove successfull breeding of quite a few fishes.

If you consider that discus can witstand shipping in small bags for 20 hours or so, you cannot lable them as delicate or sensitive. I think they are more prone to bacteria or parasites disease due to their type of slime coat.

And finaly, I don't think you risk much by giving them a 2ppm PP bath. It's pretty much harmless to fish at that concentration. I have a small 1.5 inch fish that was pitch black with clamped fins until the last fith treatment, then it sudendly revived and started to eat. So far he's nearly taken back the weight he lost and I am surprised I did not lose that fish because he was really small and young.

I know most people buy juveniles because they are cheaper, but it's not a good idea I think unless one has long experience with discus. Young ones are more sensitive to disease and have less padding in case of disease. they can grow stunted if they have a disease and stop eating for 2 to 3 weeks. Most of mine came out very thin of the disease. I have not lost a single one but I am not sure they will completely recover from it. We'll see.







Daniella,

I'm starting to doubt that it is a water problem.

I been doing massive water changes with no effect.

I'm going to contact a friend and see if I can get some pp. It's probably worth a shot, since I can't see them lasting to long in this condition :(

[MotoNC]

No discus loss in the last 2 days. One is dark, but the rest aren't. They still seem stressed and are hiding. I wonder if that is in part because there are half the previous number? They're not eating the prooffered bloodworms, but have been moving around the tank.

I have done no water changes since friday, added 1 tablespoon of salt/10g yesterday, with no real change.

I'm starting a post on filters for my water source.