Eating Algae? is he sick

[Cosmicfig]

Sorry Im pretty new to this discus thing and im worried about some of the new fish we got. We recently purchased 5 small discus from a breeder on Saturday. All the little fish are pretty scared and their color is dark. one of them isn't eating but does eat the tufts of algae we have growing over some of our plants at the moment.

A little about the tank Nitrate readings are fairly low, nitrite is 0, ammonia is 0. Ph is around 6.6, It was 6.8 but we put the Co2 dispenser in and that seems to keep it down around 6.6. temp is 86.These guys we bought were in a bare bottom tank and ours is planted. I know that some of them may just be adjusting to the new tank but one isn't eating. He does however eat algae, and my fiancea said he saw him with off white poop that looked clearish in places. I came home that night and he was indeed pooping but it was the normal brownish. But he went strait back to eating algae. We were feeding them frozen blood worms to encourage them to eat and he seemed interested... but just swam into the cloud of bloodworm's. We thought he was going to eat... and he seems like he wanted to.. but he just swam away and ate algae.


I'm worried about some of the little ones too. Some eat but they just peck at bloodworm's and don't seem interested. The breeder fed them beef heart and nothing else...

Im worried about them ive looked for signs of sickness. SOme of the smaller ones seem to clamp one fin every now and then and they get darker when they poop.


thanks
Maegan

[Chad Hughes]

Sorry Im pretty new to this discus thing and im worried about some of the new fish we got. We recently purchased 5 small discus from a breeder on Saturday. All the little fish are pretty scared and their color is dark. one of them isn't eating but does eat the tufts of algae we have growing over some of our plants at the moment.

A little about the tank Nitrate readings are fairly low, nitrite is 0, ammonia is 0. Ph is around 6.6, It was 6.8 but we put the Co2 dispenser in and that seems to keep it down around 6.6. temp is 86.These guys we bought were in a bare bottom tank and ours is planted. I know that some of them may just be adjusting to the new tank but one isn't eating. He does however eat algae, and my fiancea said he saw him with off white poop that looked clearish in places. I came home that night and he was indeed pooping but it was the normal brownish. But he went strait back to eating algae. We were feeding them frozen blood worms to encourage them to eat and he seemed interested... but just swam into the cloud of bloodworm's. We thought he was going to eat... and he seems like he wanted to.. but he just swam away and ate algae.


I'm worried about some of the little ones too. Some eat but they just peck at bloodworm's and don't seem interested. The breeder fed them beef heart and nothing else...

Im worried about them ive looked for signs of sickness. SOme of the smaller ones seem to clamp one fin every now and then and they get darker when they poop.


thanks
Maegan

Doesn't sound like illness. I do have a concern about your CO2. How do you dose and monitor the CO2? Can you give me your KH and Ph readings. Please check them at the same time. It's important.

I've seen new discus be a bit sensitive to CO2 injection.

Best wishes!

[Cosmicfig]

humm yeah I'll do the test first thing when I get home. The Co2 injector we bought was 'HAGEN CO2 NATURAL PLANT SYSTEM' can be found here;

http://www.aquariumcenter.biz/store/product/301847/HAGEN-CO2-NATURAL-PLANT-SYSTEM/

we were worried that they weren't getting enough oxygen during the evening when the plants stop producing it but we moved the filter exit up so that it was perturbing the water more than normal. What we had planned on doing was getting an airpump and stone, plugging it into a timer, so that the pump would start about an hour after the lights go out, and again shut off in the morning an hour before the lights go on. We will be installing this tonight.

I'll make sure to get you those test results first thing when I get home tonight. I'm so worried about them I may just go home a bit early to make sure they are all ok.

thanks again
M

[Cosmicfig]

Hi Chad,

thanks for the response. I wrote to you earlier but it didn't get posted for some reason. After reading your response something in the back of my head clicked and I started looking into the CO2 injector a little more. Our injector is a simple sugar yeast injector and has no ability to stabilize the PH. As a result i think there were really big ph shifts. I yanked the Co2 injector out when I got home. did a test just now on the Kh and GH they were

KH = 3
GH = 4

We also (and this makes me feel horrible upon looking back) didn't have any bubbles going to aerate the water :( . We had the filter perturbing the surface more than normal in hopes of compensating. i think we may have underestimated how much oxygen we were getting into the tank. Anyway before going home I stopped at the fish shop and grabbed an air wand, tubing and pump (aside from buying every medication under the sun in a mad panic). Ran home, did all my tests and all the readings looked good but my fish looked terrible. The only ones which looked decent were the two who had been in the tank longer. I promptly yanked the Co2, installed the air wand and let that run for 10 min (i got carried away with the pump size and it was like a mini hurricane underwater.... so tomorrow i buy a moderate pump and stone for the size tank :o ) Stopped and watched them like a hawk, ran through a dozen sites on possible illness and was reading a "common fish diseases' book when I looked up and noticed that almost all but the yellow one was out and swimming around. Two out of the three littlest guys which, before the co2 yank, looked all clamped up and were rubbing on plants, were no longer clamping as much and were swimming all over the tank. (still rubbing up on things though) another half hour and ALL the fish were out and swimming confidently. Even came right up the the surface and begged for food when i got close.

They still don't look totally over it and I have yet to see Yellow eat anything but algae, but they ARE looking better so here's to hoping....

I did also happen to look at the table where I had placed all the medicine I bought, it looks like I was preparing for WW3.... at least I'll have stuff on hand if this does turn ugly :( lets hope it doesn't though...

thanks . :)

M

[Cosmicfig]

so..... I noticed that the yellow one has one of his gills clamped shut, and another of the smaller ones is sitting in the corner breathing hard... all of them have elevated breathing. Looking as I have been online and at in various books I have been thinking it might be gill flukes... well the clamped gill pushed it in favor of that for me... (I had also been thinking it might be ick, but I didn't see any signs of the customary white spotting so i had ruled it out.) well. I decided to use the "Parasite Clear" tank bubbles to help clear any parasites...

wow, i dissolved it in a bowl and put it in the tank slowly.... the fish all started rubbing themselves on each other and acting itchy... that's when the spots started appearing. They did indeed have white spots on them that all of a sudden started to show... its been about 20 min and the white spots are still there... Should I not have done that? I'm wondering if it was indeed Ick and I did more harm than good if I have to wait between treatments... ugh I wish I knew what was wrong with them and the best way to deal with it.

They are all still breathing fairly fast but its slowing down. I'll watch them for longer tonight and see how they look tomorrow. If it is Ick how soon after this treatment can I treat for Ick? the Parasite Clear didn't say anything about getting rid of Ick.

I have 'Ick Guard' handy and ready to use but i don't want to over do the meds.

anyone has any ideas?

thanks
M

[Eddie]

Jungle Laboratories Parasite Clear

Active ingredients: praziquantel; N-[[(N-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2,6-difluorobenzamide (also known as Dimlin, not TRICHLORFON); metronidazole; acriflavine.

If your fish have ich, which I don't think they do, the Acriflavine would help knock it out.

There are other symptoms associated with gill flukes aside from one gill function. The heavy breathing may have been do to the lack of O2. I probably wouldn't have medicatd them, but since you did, finish out the treatment.

Best of luck,

Eddie

[Keasbeynights]

When one of my discus had gill flukes he flashed (scratched) too.

[Cosmicfig]

thanks Eddie I may need it. I am just so worried about them, it felt like they weren't doing very well at all.

This morning when I came out to check on them they all were out in front the yellow guy doesn't have his gill clamped. They still are rubbing on the grasses and other soft objects. A few still have one or two white spots on them. If 'Parasite Clear' really will treat ick then that's a good thing i think. The reason I suspect Ick is because we had a small outbreak in the tetras while we were getting the tank cycled. We cleared it all up and they seemed fine....


the one I am really worried about now is one of the little guys (kit) hes laying on the bottom or trying hard to stay close to one of the larger Discus.

I did a 25% water change this morning but hes not looking much better. Should I try a salt bath? I read that discus don't like aquarium salt in their tanks so I haven't been adding much of it (i did add about half the recommended tank dose last night and they seemed to like it but I don't want to over do it.)

thanks
M

[Chad Hughes]

Sorry for not responding sooner. It's been a bit busy around my house lately. Glad to hear that pulling the CO2 out helped. The trick with CO2 and discus is to bring the CO2 levels from zero to around 30-40 ppm over the course of a couple of weeks. Not being able to monitor it scares me honestly. I monitor all of mine with a controller.

You didn't give me your Ph reading at the time of the KH reading. If your Ph was below 6.8, then you had HIGH levels of CO2 in the tank. This stressed the fish and they will naturally show signs of it. Clamped fins, one gill breathing, flashing, etc. are all good indicators that your discus are un comfortable.

The best thing to do, especially when you KNOW that you have done something to cause the discus to act odd (like a CO2 OD) is to correct the fault and change a large portion of water (like 50 - 80 %). After that's done, wait at least 24 hours. It's likely you will see a complete recovery or they are well on their way to recovery. I stand clear of medications as much as possible. In my years, I've only used a chemical once.

Anyway, I hope that everything is going well for you now. Best wishes!

[Cosmicfig]

thanks Chad, yeah I think a large water change this evening is in order and then just chilling. Defiantly will not dose with the parasite clear again. the littlest ones looked terrible when I left for work. I really hope they are ok and I don't come home to dead fish... :(

Thanks for your help. I'll let you know what happens.

M

[Chad Hughes]

No worries! Let us know how things are going.

Best wishes!

[Cosmicfig]

oh man. talk about pulling them through the wringer. These poor guys... I got home this evening and did all the tests... my PH was 7.6!!!!!! from 6.4! AND there was a nitrite spike. so first thing we did was a 50% wc (id done a 25% that morning as well) and used PH down to bring it to 7.4'ish. I think its (closer to 7.2 now actually :( ) That was 4 or so hours ago. They all seem a bit better now, not so dark. I'm just staying hands off at the moment, testing to make sure there isn't a large PH shifts or anymore nitrite spikes. I just want to keep the PH stable atm so they get used to SOME stable environment. THEN in time once they are a bit over this Id like to bring it down. I heard that nothing over a .2 shift per day is good. Any thoughts on this? Other than that I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

current readings;
PH = 7.2
KH = 4
GH = 4
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5.0

[Eddie]

oh man. talk about pulling them through the wringer. These poor guys... I got home this evening and did all the tests... my PH was 7.6!!!!!! from 6.4! AND there was a nitrite spike. so first thing we did was a 50% wc (id done a 25% that morning as well) and used PH down to bring it to 7.4'ish. I think its (closer to 7.2 now actually :( ) That was 4 or so hours ago. They all seem a bit better now, not so dark. I'm just staying hands off at the moment, testing to make sure there isn't a large PH shifts or anymore nitrite spikes. I just want to keep the PH stable atm so they get used to SOME stable environment. THEN in time once they are a bit over this Id like to bring it down. I heard that nothing over a .2 shift per day is good. Any thoughts on this? Other than that I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

current readings;
PH = 7.2
KH = 4
GH = 4
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5.0


Do you age your water?

7.6 PH is fine. Going from 6.4 to 7.6 may not be nice but it's worse going down.

If you don't age your water, I would. PH down, is not much of a PH stabilizer. It will be hard to keep a stable PH using chemicals. To be honest, I would have just left them in the 7.6. Doing daily small waterchanges will keep the PH fairly stable if you are not againg your water.

To me though, sounds like you may need to age your water.

You can add 2 tbsp of salt per 10 gallons of water to help with the nitrites as well on top of the water changes.

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

Eddie is spot on here.

One more thing I would recommend is to NEVER us a Ph adjustor. It's only going to give you a headache (well, not literally). Like Eddie said, going from low to high is not as bad as the other way around and small water changes more frequently will help with any swings.

If your tap has a KH and GH in the 4 levels, leave the Ph alone.

The less you fiddle with the water, the better.

Anyway, how are they all doing?

Best wishes!

[Cosmicfig]

Hey guys thanks for the great advice. I think you are totally right and I plan on not adjusting the PH at all. I did an experiment yesterday and threw some new water into a 5 gallon bucket, placed a heater and an air stone in it then left it for 24 hours. I tested the tap ph and its 7.8 I tested the bucket this morning and its 7.4ish. Our water right now in the tank is 7.4 so I will be defiantly following your advice and get a trash bin from home depot today to use as a container to age. When I asked the man we bought the discus from what his water prams were he just said he uses the tap and doesn't age. Looking back I really should have tested it myself and taken his advice with a grain of salt. It make sense to me now why he wouldnt age his water because he does two 75% water changes a day on his tanks. So I guess he wouldn't have to. We don't do that much, we usually do a 25% in the morning and a 25% in the evening... Well one good thing is coming out of this, I'm learning loads. Just wish it wasn't at the expense of these sweet fish.

Now for the fish update, They were all doing just OK this morning. The same two little ones are very dark and barley eating, I have yet to see the yellow one eat anything but algae. I have to do a water change here in a second because there are still trace amounts of nitrite in the water and I defiantly want those out. I was thinking of doing a salt dip for both the littler ones that aren't felling well. But Id really like to get your input on that before I do it. I don't want to make anything worse.

Thanks again

M

[Eddie]

Its good to know you are getting the water worked out. I would not do a salt bath on the fish. You are currently using Parasite Clear correct? Or did you stop? The fish may have gone off their food from medicating. Can you get any pictures of the fish?

Eddie

[Cosmicfig]

Hey guys sorry Ive been gone so long. Yeah Eddie I stopped using the parasite clear after the first dose. We pretty much just tried to leave them alone as much as possible. Monitored the water and their food to make sure everything was stable, but other than that we let them work it out. I'm very very happy, and relieved, to report that they are now all looking MUCH better and are eating well. They are still a bit shy, but considering what they went through I don't blame them. For right now though I'm just watching them and hopping that, with clean water and lots of food they'll continue to recover and be happy.

I'll try and post some pics when I can get my camera working again. Thanks again you two for all your help and suggestions.

Cheers
M

[Chad Hughes]

That's great news! I'd love to see some pictures when you get a chance.

Best wishes!