Is Bleach Enough???

[Yassmeena]

I bought a 72 gallon bowfront used off of craigs list and I need to clean it up.

It was used a FW tank for cichlids.

Is bleach enough to clean it before I add my discus, or is PP necessary?

I ask only bc I don't have PP and I don't know how easy it is to find around here. But if need be, I can always order online.

Thanks so much!!!!! :D

Yasmin

[Eddie]

Yup Yas, a bleach and water solution will be just fine. I think KDodds recommends 4 parts water/ 1 part bleach. Just give it a real good cleaning and rinsing.

Eddie

[FLGirl1977]

Yaz, for sterilizing in the hospital we use 1 part bleach, 10 parts water and that sterizes everything sufficient enough for the hospital.... so yes... it will be fine for your tank. :) HTH...

[Elite Aquaria]

Yasmin,

Bleach is stronger than PP when it comes to cleaning out a tank...I like to make sure that the water reaches up to the very top of the black plastic rim making sure to get up under the underside of the rim. Let it sit for 24 hours.

[Yassmeena]

Thanks all!

So I will use 1 part bleach to every 4 parts water.

That means 14 gallons of bleach! Looks like a trip to the grocery stores in order. ;)

Yasmin

[Eddie]

Thanks all!

So I will use 1 part bleach to every 4 parts water.

That means 14 gallons of bleach! Looks like a trip to the grocery stores in order. ;)

Yasmin

Bleach is cheap :D

Eddie

[brewmaster15]

Thanks all!

So I will use 1 part bleach to every 4 parts water.

That means 14 gallons of bleach! Looks like a trip to the grocery stores in order. ;)

Yasmin Whhhhoooooo Horsey.. I think these concentrations are over kill in a big way...:)

Renee is right here...


Yaz, for sterilizing in the hospital we use 1 part bleach, 10 parts water and that sterizes everything sufficient enough for the hospital.... so yes... it will be fine for your tank. :) HTH... Thats what we use in the lab... 10% bleach solution....but its based on very short contact times.. typically less than 20 minutes..

If you are trying to clean out a 55-75 gallon tank... afew cups of bleach should be fine... I typically use 1/2 gal on a 125 gal tank and thats overkill. Just let it circulate overnight and rinse well.

Hth,
al

[KDodds]

Yeah 4:1. You don't have to fill the tank, though, not unless you really want to. A good scrubbing with a sponge of all surfaces, inside and out, will work. Since you'll have to scrub the exterior anyway, might as well use less bleach and more elbow grease. Go over it a few times, just to be sure, if you're worried. FWIW, a 10:1 solution will not kill some bacteria, most particularly some Mycobacterium spp. Those little buggers are incredibly tough. Coming from lab techs who've dealt with them, if you can't autoclave it, I've received recommendations of 4:1 and 5:1, water:bleach, as the only reasonably effective method of sterilization. I go with the 4:1, just to be sure.

[brewmaster15]

Yeah 4:1. You don't have to fill the tank, though, not unless you really want to. A good scrubbing with a sponge of all surfaces, inside and out, will work. Since you'll have to scrub the exterior anyway, might as well use less bleach and more elbow grease. Go over it a few times, just to be sure, if you're worried. FWIW, a 10:1 solution will not kill some bacteria, most particularly some Mycobacterium spp. Those little buggers are incredibly tough. Coming from lab techs who've dealt with them, if you can't autoclave it, I've received recommendations of 4:1 and 5:1, water:bleach, as the only reasonably effective method of sterilization. I go with the 4:1, just to be sure.



Theres a world of a difference between sanitizing and sterilizing.... No where was it asked how to "sterilize" a tank... It was asked how to "clean it"..

Unless you are sterilizing all the fish and foods you feed... as well as all the biological filter material you put in there ... theres really no practical reason to try and "Sterilize" a tank.

I really think that whats being recommended here as a bleach solution is way overboard...not to mention caustic as all heck.

regards,
al

[poconogal]

Caustic as hell is right! I read somewhere years ago that a heavy concentration of bleach can eat away at the silicone sealant in a tank. I do know that the caulking around the bottom of my tile shower is coming off in chunks after I sprayed some mildew with Chlorox Clean-Up Cleaner with Bleach, which contains only 1.84% bleach, 98.16% other ingredients. I don't use bleach in any tank. I use a heap of kosher salt and hot water, scrub everything well, the rim and under the rim included and rinse. I've never had a problem doing it this way, even though its very old school.

[KDodds]

Actually, there are many practical reasons, but let's just look at one, the aforementioned Mycobacterium spp., specifically Mycobacterium marinum, the bacteria (or one of them) known to cause a potentially fatal and incurable disease (fish tuberculosis). This particular bacterium can and does exist for extended periods of time (years) completely dry. It can infect fish, ambhibians, reptiles, and heck, even people, although symptoms can change across Class/Order/Family. It is not introduced to a tank through vehicles such as foods, but rather on surfaces (tank walls, old filters) or through infected livestock. Obviously you can not sterilize EVERYTHING you put into a given tank (hence, QT precautions). BUT, you can "play it safe" and work with a reasonably clean slate from the start. So, yeah, there are practical reasons to sterilize a (especially if it's been used) tank. You know those posts were fish just keep wasting away despite complete tank break downs? You can't always chalk those up to poor husbandry skills. Losing a tank of your favorite fish slowly to some unknown while you watch helplessly and have every measure you implement fail miserably, that's about the worst thing that can happen to anyone. Taking some prudent precautions, pre-setup, that take mere hours, well, I'd go for them any day over the possible alternative. ;)

[KDodds]

Connie, an undiluted bleach solution can, over time, cause some degradation in caulks and silicones. But those are the key words, undiluted and time. Older caulking is already degrading anyway and the repeated wetting drying of tub and shower caulk is not a fair comparison to what happens in aquaria. A more fair comparison might be an inground pool, subjected to high chlorine levels, but never really dried and refilled. Liners in these instances can last 20 years, or more. ;) Be that as it may, sodium chloride as a cleaning agent may be effective against some potential pathogens, but not all.

[brewmaster15]

Actually, there are many practical reasons, but let's just look at one, the aforementioned Mycobacterium spp., specifically Mycobacterium marinum, the bacteria (or one of them) known to cause a potentially fatal and incurable disease (fish tuberculosis). This particular bacterium can and does exist for extended periods of time (years) completely dry. It can infect fish, ambhibians, reptiles, and heck, even people, although symptoms can change across Class/Order/Family. It is not introduced to a tank through vehicles such as foods, but rather on surfaces (tank walls, old filters) or through infected livestock. Obviously you can not sterilize EVERYTHING you put into a given tank (hence, QT precautions). BUT, you can "play it safe" and work with a reasonably clean slate from the start. So, yeah, there are practical reasons to sterilize a (especially if it's been used) tank. You know those posts were fish just keep wasting away despite complete tank break downs? You can't always chalk those up to poor husbandry skills. Losing a tank of your favorite fish slowly to some unknown while you watch helplessly and have every measure you implement fail miserably, that's about the worst thing that can happen to anyone. Taking some prudent precautions, pre-setup, that take mere hours, well, I'd go for them any day over the possible alternative. ;) I'm sorry but I still disagree with you.


It is not introduced to a tank through vehicles such as foods, but rather on surfaces (tank walls, old filters) or through infected livestock. Really? Frozen foods don't have it? and this bacterium that you said is so hard to destroy and can lay dormant for years.. its not possible that its dormant in the commercial fishfoods we feed from the fish in them?... maybe... but then again...It takes autoclaving to kill most Mycobacterium ...and thats far more temp and processing than fish food undergoes....Just some things to think about.

Let me ask you this Keirnon,
You are a salt water guy right? You set up a tank, sterilize it as you recommend, then add livestock and liverock.. Do you think that you really have diminished the risk of Mycobacterium..something that is everywhere in aquatic environments... Heck a fish can carry it dormant for years....Its been estimated that up to 80% of aquarium livestock have been in contact with it.

My point in this is to separate what is practical and worth doing and what is not... If someone is so paranoid about "sterilizing" a used tank.. it would be far better that they just buy a new one.

hth,
al

[Yassmeena]

I've read everyone's posts. Thank you for your responses.

I can see how each side of the debate is right (i.e. sanitizing vs. disinfecting).

Based on what I've read, this sounds like it might be a good plan (all with gloved hands!):

1 - Sponge down the walls with pure bleach, avoiding the silicone.
2 - Fill the tank overnight with a 10% bleach solution, and scrub down the silicone lightly with a sponge at that time.

Does that sound safe, effective and reasonable?

Yasmin

PS - Nice to see so many scientific minds here! ;)

[Eddie]

Sounds fine Yas, even the walls I probably wouldn't go full bleach solution. Should be fine using the same solution of 10% all around.

All the best,

Eddie

[KDodds]

You'd have to send samples of your foods for culture to be sure, but I believe, but am not certain, that the crystallization process during freezing kills Mycobaterium. Of course, you can't put your tank in a freezer, unless you have a really big freezer or a really small tank. ;) There are different strains as well, and some can prove to be more potent than others. Processed foods, I can't see them making it through the whole process of baking, etc. But again, you'd have to send your flakes and pellets out for testing if you're interested enough to find out.

I don't draw the line or make a distinction between being a "salt water guy" or "fresh water guy" or anything like that really. I've interests throughout the hobby, so it's hard to say what hole into which you could peg me. Definitely not the killie hole or the brackish hole though. ;)

But, yes, by destroying potentially infective organisms you diminish risk. It's a matter of whether that diminshed risk is useful or not. In my particular case, where I've been forced to butt heads with M. marinum, yes, the diminished risk has proved more than useful, it's worked where all other measures failed. I'm talking about necropsied fish out of a death trap tanks that, since sterilized, have proven not to be a death traps any longer. ;) Practical experience that no aquarist should have to face.

What is practical and what is not practical? Sponge, five gallon bucket, 1 gallon of bleach, fill with water, clean. Less than a day's work for some peace of mind in a tank that could maybe go for decades. Is that really less practical than spending twice as much (or more) on a brand new tank versus a used one?

[Ed13]

Actually Al and KDodds are both right and present valid points, but my personal opinion is that the risk here is more in a "happy medium" between this two opinions. More troublesome than Al thinks but less than KDodds thinks.

My point in this is to separate what is practical and worth doing and what is not... If someone is so paranoid about "sterilizing" a used tank.. it would be far better that they just buy a new one.

hth,
al
I sterilize/clean new tanks too;), yes I'm that paranoid... :wasntme:

[Jhhnn]

What it comes down to is an issue of exposure time vs bleach concentration. KDodds' method using high concentrations is almost instantly lethal to the vast majority of micro-organisms. Scrub it, rinse it, and you're done. Much, much lower concentrations will also do the job over time.

I'm personally kinda old-skool, like poconogal. If the tank was healthy, then I use salt and vinegar, run the odd bits thru the dishwasher. Turn off heated dry and definitely don't use the sanitize feature...

[Ed13]

What it comes down to is an issue of exposure time vs bleach concentration. KDodds' method using high concentrations is almost instantly lethal to the vast majority of micro-organisms. Scrub it, rinse it, and you're done. Much, much lower concentrations will also do the job over time.

Exactly, two cups of bleach per gallon of water allowed to dry for 5 minutes on non-porous surfaces is enough to kill very nasty stuff. So as bath I usually do between 25-50gallons of water per gallon of bleach. But as a scrub I use 2-6 cups of bleach per gallon. Or I may scrub it down with alcohol instead. Just remember that all these chemicals are hard on the silicone and that bleached equipment needs to be throughly rinsed or neutralized.

I also don't buy used equipment, especially tanks, even though it may take me longer to acquire stuff. I personally refuse to start things "with a pebble on my shoes". But, I also understand that contamination from other sources is possible, like Al has mentioned on the food for example.