What would you do?

[Daniella]

I just got 2 new fish a week ago and I thought they were breathing a little fast, especialy one of them but I thought it was just maybe from the stress of being in a new place. I had them in a 20 gallons QT. Friday I treated them with prazipro at normal dosage. Saturday morning I found one of them dead. I looked at it in good light and the fish had quite a bit of gill rot so I guess he had bactarial gill disease? From the photos I looked at on the net it really look like damage done by bacterial gill disease.

So after that I treated the remaining fish (was also breathing fast) with permanganate potassium at 2ppm and only did one hour because he was breathing really fast. About one hour after the PP bath he was back to normal and as of today he's still acting normal, breathing back to normal and eating well.

Now my question is, what would you do with the dead fish? Would you bring it back to the person who sold it to you and ask for a replacement? Even after one week? How long is reasonable to ask for a replacement? I beleive the fish were having this when I got them as they were breathing quite fast but I never thought it was that serious. I simply thought they had some gill flukes, why I treated them with prazipro.

Also is one PP treatment enough? it,s been 2 days after the PP bath and no other symptoms, so should I conclude that there are no more bacteria?

PS, I bought it from one of the sponsor in this forum.

[Eddie]

I just got 2 new fish a week ago and I thought they were breathing a little fast, especialy one of them but I thought it was just maybe from the stress of being in a new place. I had them in a 20 gallons QT. Friday I treated them with prazipro at normal dosage. Saturday morning I found one of them dead. I looked at it in good light and the fish had quite a bit of gill rot so I guess he had bactarial gill disease? From the photos I looked at on the net it really look like damage done by bacterial gill disease.

So after that I treated the remaining fish (was also breathing fast) with permanganate potassium at 2ppm and only did one hour because he was breathing really fast. About one hour after the PP bath he was back to normal and as of today he's still acting normal, breathing back to normal and eating well.

Now my question is, what would you do with the dead fish? Would you bring it back to the person who sold it to you and ask for a replacement? Even after one week? How long is reasonable to ask for a replacement? I beleive the fish were having this when I got them as they were breathing quite fast but I never thought it was that serious. I simply thought they had some gill flukes, why I treated them with prazipro.

Also is one PP treatment enough? it,s been 2 days after the PP bath and no other symptoms, so should I conclude that there are no more bacteria?

PS, I bought it from one of the sponsor in this forum.


I wouldn't ask for a replacement fish or a refund. If you thought they had something wrong with them when you got them, you should have contacted the seller immediately before using any medication.

What does it matter if the seller was a sponsor, the LFS, or a hobbyist? I don't think that has any significance

Take care,

Eddie

[Daniella]

Getting a fish from a sponsor here does not garantee that you'll have healthy fish. I always buy from sponsor here and got a fish which died from something bad with its gills. Maybe ammonia burn from the shipping.

[Tito]

This story reminds me of a similar story I read about last week in my favorite forum. A guy I know received some fish from a well known distributor and the fish arrived in the same condition. One died and the rest made it. By the way - Gill Rot?? Na I think your fish suffered from Gill BURN from the ammonia in the bag. This happens more often then we like. He too made the mistake of treating and not contacting immediately.

This is a natural reaction to try and save the fish!

[traversediscus]

I would personally contact the seller and discus your issues with them first before a thread on here. If you believe the seller to be unfair then by all means express your situation.

You might find that the seller will help you out even if they see as their problem or not.

The only down side for you was not contacting them straight away, Though we all learn for the next time.

Hope it all works out for you

[Eddie]

Getting a fish from a sponsor here does not garantee that you'll have healthy fish. I always buy from sponsor here and got a fish with bacterial gill disease.

Actually don't think that is an accurate statement, if the fish arrived with a gill disease, you should have contacted that person immediately.

Eddie

[brewmaster15]

You should always try to work with the seller of the fish in a transaction like this and a buyer should always contact the seller of the fish when they have a potential problem and before they to treat the issue.

By the symptoms here BTW.. I don't think theres much you can state as cause of death....I'm sorry.

A general note... transporting fish can be tough on the gills and Ammonia burns can happen and will cause flashing and labored Breath... If this is the case and you treat with Formalin or PP.. you can really push over the edge. I would stop all treatments and let the fish rest.

-al

[brewmaster15]

Getting a fish from a sponsor here does not garantee that you'll have healthy fish. I always buy from sponsor here and got a fish with bacterial gill disease.


Getting Fish from a sponsor is not a guarantee of anything , though they all try to provide the best and healthiest stock things do happen....These are fish we are talking about here.

.... I Read your post here...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=538191#post538191

and I don't see how you can make any Claim that your fish had bacterial Gill disease.... if anything, your conclusion that the PP treatment cured the other fish is way off base.. PP will never and can never cure bacterial infections of the gills...I really don't think you understand diseases enough to be making these claims Daniella.


-al

[Daniella]

I am not sure it is bacterial gill disease but from the photos I saw of it, it really looked the same. Here on the second pics it show how the gill were:

http://www.koicrisis.com/symptoms/gill.html

From the photos that I have seen it is what closer ressemble what the fish had, but I am surely no expert and this is only my guess.

I know that things do happen and I am not blaming the sponsor either, why I was asking what other people would do and why I will not mention who the sponsor is either. I do not think it's the sponsor fault as he did not know either. The fish was showing very little sign, just a bit of heavy breathing and breathing from one gill but not constantly, even with such heavy damage to its gills.

PP is one of the cure recommanded for bacterial gill disease on many litterature, why I used it on the remaining fish.

Anyway I was only saying that to show that buying from someone with a reputation is no garantee and QT is always necessary no matter what is the source for the fish.

I was told by private message to stop buying crappy fish. It's not that easy it seems. BTW, those that I actualy bought from local petshop, those crappy little fish, are perfectly healthy and are the ones that I have less trouble with. go figure.







Getting Fish from a sponsor is not a guarantee of anything , though they all try to provide the best and healthiest stock things do happen....These are fish we are talking about here.

.... I Read your post here...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=538191#post538191

and I don't see how you can make any Claim that your fish had bacterial Gill disease.... if anything, your conclusion that the PP treatment cured the other fish is way off base.. PP will never and can never cure bacterial infections of the gills...I really don't think you understand diseases enough to be making these claims Daniella.


-al

[Daniella]

Could be that, not sure since I am no expert. My guess was after seing pics of it. The rotting is in patches, not on the edges.

As for trying to save the fish, yes it's hard not to do anything, especialy that I did not expect it to be so severe.



This story reminds me of a similar story I read about last week in my favorite forum. A guy I know received some fish from a well known distributor and the fish arrived in the same condition. One died and the rest made it. By the way - Gill Rot?? Na I think your fish suffered from Gill BURN from the ammonia in the bag. This happens more often then we like. He too made the mistake of treating and not contacting immediately.

This is a natural reaction to try and save the fish!

[brewmaster15]

Daniella,


I am not sure it is bacterial gill disease but from the photos I saw of it, it really looked the same. Here on the second pics it show how the gill were:
thats a big difference from...


I always buy from sponsor here and got a fish with bacterial gill disease.

But even if it looks like bacterial gill disease, PP is not the treatment to use.. When a fish has bacterial gill disease, bacteria attacks the gills and impairs a fishes ability to breath and the myriad of other functions gills perform... using a caustic substance on them is likely to push a sick fish over the edge.

Think of it like this Daniella... If you have a cut on your hand and it gets infected... if you swabbed with PP or a rubbing alcohol would it cure the infection that is established... no it would not... you would need an antibiotic for that.

People really need to be careful when they draw conclusions and make statements that are inaccurate....Information posted by one person can be used by another and can really kill other peoples fish..., and making unfounded statements like you got a fish from a seller with bacterial gill disease can harm that sellers reputation..Its not something to post lightly about.

-al

[Daniella]

I do not beleive the seller to be unfair. Heck, I am not even sure it is appropriate to contact him about it since I should have done it earlier at first sign of something was not right. I just did not thought it was that bad. I thought nothing of it just thought it was stress.

Live and learn.

I posted this question here because I don,t want to go any further with this if it is not appropriate due to my action and wait. I simply want to know what others would do.



I would personally contact the seller and discus your issues with them first before a thread on here. If you believe the seller to be unfair then by all means express your situation.

You might find that the seller will help you out even if they see as their problem or not.

The only down side for you was not contacting them straight away, Though we all learn for the next time.

Hope it all works out for you

[traversediscus]

I do not beleive the seller to be unfair. Heck, I am not even sure it is appropriate to contact him about it since I should have done it earlier at first sign of something was not right. I just did not thought it was that bad. I thought nothing of it just thought it was stress.

Live and learn.

I posted this question here because I don,t want to go any further with this if it is not appropriate due to my action and wait. I simply want to know what others would do.


I would still contact the seller as he "MAY" help you out. If not im sure he appreciate the feedback. If people font let them know about problems they can not go about fixing the problem. Everyone learns everyday including the best of the breeders.

Good luck anyway

[Daniella]

I treated it with prazipro, normal dosage. That's all. Prazipro is quite gentle on fish. I thought it might had gill flukes because of the breathing fast from one gill. The QT had lots of areation with air pump and filtration.

The fish had no other sing of other disease and looked good, with fins erected and was eating. So hard to expect such sudden death. there was no flashing either, just fast breathing and from one gill.

I used PP bath on the remaining fish and that stopped its fast breathing. If it had made it worse, it would not have stopped the fast breathing. now it's breathing normaly.

I will let it rest and watch it carefully. So far so good and that's been for 3 days.



You should always try to work with the seller of the fish in a transaction like this and a buyer should always contact the seller of the fish when they have a potential problem and before they to treat the issue.

By the symptoms here BTW.. I don't think theres much you can state as cause of death....I'm sorry.

A general note... transporting fish can be tough on the gills and Ammonia burns can happen and will cause flashing and labored Breath... If this is the case and you treat with Formalin or PP.. you can really push over the edge. I would stop all treatments and let the fish rest.

-al

[brewmaster15]

I merged some of these posts from another hobbyists thread in the disease board to this one..


-al

[Daniella]

I have chloramine-T on order but it's not going to be here before another week at least.

As for the seller reputation, again, I will not publish the name, no matter what and even if we would disagree. I would never do that. The seller does not even know about it yet. I think what hapened is a good part my fault for not contacting that seller earlier. He/she is a really nice person.

As for the disease, it really look like the photos of bacterial gill disease but I am pretty sure the gill damage is what killed the fish.







Daniella,

thats a big difference from...



But even if it looks like bacterial gill disease, PP is not the treatment to use.. When a fish has bacterial gill disease, bacteria attacks the gills and impairs a fishes ability to breath and the myriad of other functions gills perform... using a caustic substance on them is likely to push a sick fish over the edge.

Think of it like this Daniella... If you have a cut on your hand and it gets infected... if you swabbed with PP or a rubbing alcohol would it cure the infection that is established... no it would not... you would need an antibiotic for that.

People really need to be careful when they draw conclusions and make statements that are inaccurate....Information posted by one person can be used by another and can really kill other peoples fish..., and making unfounded statements like you got a fish from a seller with bacterial gill disease can harm that sellers reputation..Its not something to post lightly about.

-al

[Daniella]

Yes I guess but a lot of litterature suggest PP for BGD. since it helped, I am guessing it is not bacterial gill disease then? but something else. What could it be that has patched of rotted gill tissue? I am not even sure the remaining fish has the same thing since I did not look at its gill.

I will need to take a photo of the frozen fish gill and post it here. Anyway like I said, the dead fish only had prazipro wich is mild.




Daniella,
But even if it looks like bacterial gill disease, PP is not the treatment to use.. When a fish has bacterial gill disease, bacteria attacks the gills and impairs a fishes ability to breath and the myriad of other functions gills perform... using a caustic substance on them is likely to push a sick fish over the edge.

Think of it like this Daniella... If you have a cut on your hand and it gets infected... if you swabbed with PP or a rubbing alcohol would it cure the infection that is established... no it would not... you would need an antibiotic for that.

People really need to be careful when they draw conclusions and make statements that are inaccurate....Information posted by one person can be used by another and can really kill other peoples fish..., and making unfounded statements like you got a fish from a seller with bacterial gill disease can harm that sellers reputation..Its not something to post lightly about.

-al

[brewmaster15]

Yes I guess but a lot of litterature suggest PP for BGD. since it helped, I am guessing it is not bacterial gill disease then? but something else. What could it be that has patched of rotted gill tissue? I am not even sure the remaining fish has the same thing since I did not look at its gill.

I will need to take a photo of the frozen fish gill and post it here. Anyway like I said, the dead fish only had prazipro wich is mild.

Daniella,
When a hatchery uses PP to treat a vat of trout or other commercial fish its with the assumption that theres going to be high mortality from the bacterial gill infection..seriously affected fish won't survive ...these facilities are limited by what they can use chemical wise and the goal is salvage the fish for market. Add to that they really could care less if theres severe gill damage as long as the fish can breath its way to market.... Thats a far different goal than a hobbyist with a fish that they want to save for the long term.


Many times when a fish is shipped it will have some gill burns...these can cause the fish to be irritated and flash... but that doesn't mean its flukes.....its possible its just healing.

As for telling the fish had bacterail gill infections from a dead fish.. Its not going to provide you with any concrete evidence there..... but it doesn't sound like that is what you were dealing here.

hth,
al

[Daniella]

If I post pics of the gills will it help people see what it was? or is it too late to see once the fish is dead and frozen?

I guess the gill will be pretty much all white after freezing, but not sure.

I guess in this thread all I wished to know was what other people would do reguarding the dead fish with the seller.

I will try and take a pic of the fish gill and post it. Most of the refences with BGD and PP were in reguard to koi.



Daniella,
When a hatchery uses PP to treat a vat of trout or other commercial fish its with the assumption that theres going to be high mortality from the bacterial gill infection..seriously affected fish won't survive ...these facilities are limited by what they can use chemical wise and the goal is salvage the fish for market. Add to that they really could care less if theres severe gill damage as long as the fish can breath its way to market.... Thats a far different goal than a hobbyist with a fish that they want to save for the long term.


Many times when a fish is shipped it will have some gill burns...these can cause the fish to be irritated and flash... but that doesn't mean its flukes.....its possible its just healing.

As for telling the fish had bacterail gill infections from a dead fish.. Its not going to provide you with any concrete evidence there..... but it doesn't sound like that is what you were dealing here.

hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

Daniella,
Theres not going to be any way to ID the pathogen from the Frzen fish here...I'm sorry.


As for the literature on PP use for bacterial Gill Disease... I don't doubt that PP is recommended for koi ponds dealing with bacterial gill diseases...but even there...when its used...its under the assumption that severely affected fish will probably not survive..

If you or anyone else choses to use PP as treatment for ailments you should always weigh the risks and use the treatment thats most effective and has the least chance to harm the fish..

Treating a fish with a caustic substance when its gills are already damaged and under attack by a bacteria is really not a course of action I would recommend to anyone....If you think about it...I hope you will come to see that...there are safer and more effective ways to deal with a disease condition like this in a fish tank...provided that you really are dealing with a bacterial gill disease.


hth,
al

[Daniella]

Ok so no point posting pics of the gills then.

Maybe it died from gill burn from ammonia, not sure. It did have a lot of rotting patches, like the gill had melted in patches.

looked pretty much like this with same color too but with more patches.


http://www.koicrisis.com/images/gillscallops.jpg

Not sure if the other fish has the same condition or not. I am guessing that if it does, it wont live for long.

The fish eated well today and still breath normaly. He kind of look more active as well and less stressed, so not sure.





Daniella,
Theres not going to be any way to ID the pathogen from the Frzen fish here...I'm sorry.


As for the literature on PP use for bacterial Gill Disease... I don't doubt that PP is recommended for koi ponds dealing with bacterial gill diseases...but even there...when its used...its under the assumption that severely affected fish will probably not survive..

If you or anyone else choses to use PP as treatment for ailments you should always weigh the risks and use the treatment thats most effective and has the least chance to harm the fish..

Treating a fish with a caustic substance when its gills are already damaged and under attack by a bacteria is really not a course of action I would recommend to anyone....If you think about it...I hope you will come to see that...there are safer and more effective ways to deal with a disease condition like this in a fish tank...provided that you really are dealing with a bacterial gill disease.


hth,
al