View Full Version : Water Quality = Confusion? Maybe...
I've kept all sorts of fish. Fresh and salt. But....
LOL
When it comes to Discus - I get the feeling this term "water quality" is like the mysterious Shroud of Turin.
Water Quality is thrown out in almost every Discus discussion. But what does it mean? For instance...in salt water, water quality will entail (for starters) pH, salinity, of course ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, then there's calcium, strongtium and so on. For African Cichlids there's gh, kh, pH, and (copy and paste) ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Same goes for brackish water fish, and so on and so on.
Sooooo.....drum roll please....
What exactly is meant by "water quality" when it comes to Discus. I'll provide an example:
Someone will say "do 50% water changes daily for water quality". Or, I do 100% daily water changes.
But what exactly is it that is being accomplished?
Are we keeping nitrates down? Phosphates down? Also, if you have a tank with an established filter (in my case three) I would imagine that ammonia and nitrite would not be an issue at all, then would not the established filter or filters maintain good water quality? Is thre something I'm missing? I mean - what is it - that is being aimed at? Water chemistry is the basic understanding that all hobbyist must come around to learning to keep a healthy tank. So once we learn about it and how to maintain it - I would imagine that we all keep good water quality. Yet so many Discus keepers make this issue the number one subject in keeping, breeding and raising Discus. But again I ask...what exactly about the water's quality is it that we are trying to keep optimal?
I just have this gut feeling that the "water quality" emphasis applies more to bare bottom tanks that have a sponge or two and have 100% of the water removed...I would imagine that this type of husbandry put's a hurting on the biological bacteria due to the constant interuption.
I don't think water quality=lots of big water changes for well established tanks with power filters and cansiters filters as well as substrate. In this kind of environment there is plenty of biological fauna to maintain excellent water quality.
Also might I not leave out - nutrients. Are nutrients in the water harmful to Discus? Being that when growing them out with so many feedings ther is bound to be a lot of nutirents in the water.
I'm definitely interested to see responses for my topic.
Thanks!
Daniella
06-16-2009, 10:26 AM
I am wondering the same thing. I know a woman who does only one water change per month and her discus are healthy, big and they are even laying eggs often. Worse is that she has 7 adult discus in a 35 gallon tank!
I would not do that but also wondering about all this.
I've kept all sorts of fish. Fresh and salt. But....
LOL
When it comes to Discus - I get the feeling this term "water quality" is like the mysterious Shroud of Turin.
Water Quality is thrown out in almost every Discus discussion. But what does it mean? For instance...in salt water, water quality will entail (for starters) pH, salinity, of course ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, then there's calcium, strongtium and so on. For African Cichlids there's gh, kh, pH, and (copy and paste) ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Same goes for brackish water fish, and so on and so on.
Sooooo.....drum roll please....
What exactly is meant by "water quality" when it comes to Discus. I'll provide an example:
Someone will say "do 50% water changes daily for water quality". Or, I do 100% daily water changes.
But what exactly is it that is being accomplished?
Are we keeping nitrates down? Phosphates down? Also, if you have a tank with an established filter (in my case three) I would imagine that ammonia and nitrite would not be an issue at all, then would not the established filter or filters maintain good water quality? Is thre something I'm missing? I mean - what is it - that is being aimed at? Water chemistry is the basic understanding that all hobbyist must come around to learning to keep a healthy tank. So once we learn about it and how to maintain it - I would imagine that we all keep good water quality. Yet so many Discus keepers make this issue the number one subject in keeping, breeding and raising Discus. But again I ask...what exactly about the water's quality is it that we are trying to keep optimal?
I just have this gut feeling that the "water quality" emphasis applies more to bare bottom tanks that have a sponge or two and have 100% of the water removed...I would imagine that this type of husbandry put's a hurting on the biological bacteria due to the constant interuption.
I don't think water quality=lots of big water changes for well established tanks with power filters and cansiters filters as well as substrate. In this kind of environment there is plenty of biological fauna to maintain excellent water quality.
Also might I not leave out - nutrients. Are nutrients in the water harmful to Discus? Being that when growing them out with so many feedings ther is bound to be a lot of nutirents in the water.
I'm definitely interested to see responses for my topic.
Thanks!
kaceyo
06-16-2009, 03:42 PM
Hey Tito,
IMO the emphasis on water quality for discus has alot to do with keeping pathogen levels very low, as well as the things you mentioned taht are common to all aquarium keeping. Discus tend to be more susceptible to some pathogens than most other fish are, so it's more criticle to keep the water quality very high and the pathogens numbers low.
Where growing out juvies is concerned, there are also the large quantities of food and waste to deal with, which will foul the water and effect their health and growth in a hurry if water quality isn't kept high.
I'm sure others can explain it better than I but that's the jist of it.
Kacey
Hey Tito,
IMO the emphasis on water quality for discus has alot to do with keeping pathogen levels very low, as well as the things you mentioned taht are common to all aquarium keeping. Discus tend to be more susceptible to some pathogens than most other fish are, so it's more criticle to keep the water quality very high and the pathogens numbers low.
Where growing out juvies is concerned, there are also the large quantities of food and waste to deal with, which will foul the water and effect their health and growth in a hurry if water quality isn't kept high.
I'm sure others can explain it better than I but that's the jist of it.
Kacey
That makes sense. Of course....Pathogens have to be introduced. That brings in the question of what is beeing fed to rush the growth. But I guess that's another topic.
Don Trinko
06-16-2009, 04:22 PM
You have asked the $64,000 question. To the best of my limmited knowledge there is no scientific answer to your question.
This results in Water change routines anywhere from 100% twice a day to 10% everyso often. IMO; These routines are based on personal experience.
There are a lot of factors effecting WC. Bioload, age of fish , feedings and many more.
WC is one discus subject that the only thing 2 discus keepers agree on is that the 3rd discus keeper is wrong.
Search for WC and you will find many opinions. All of this Imo; Don T.
You have asked the $64,000 question. To the best of my limmited knowledge there is no scientific answer to your question.
This results in Water change routines anywhere from 100% twice a day to 10% everyso often. IMO; These routines are based on personal experience.
There are a lot of factors effecting WC. Bioload, age of fish , feedings and many more.
WC is one discus subject that the only thing 2 discus keepers agree on is that the 3rd discus keeper is wrong.
Search for WC and you will find many opinions. All of this Imo; Don T.
Thank you Don for the afirmation. That's what I have been thinking but I don't want to insult or start a problem. Seems like a few times my remarks in this forum have been taking wrongly but....all esle aside...you hit it on the nose I think. Depends on experiences. What I also think is that some people dive straight into Discus, buy Discus books, join a Discus forum and walla - you have the typical statement made "change water every day".
When I see that sort of thing it somewaht confuses me - honestly. Because I have kept marine, african, central american, south american, community, heck only group of fish I have not kept is brackish. And to me - water quality for all of them has always meant a good biological and mechanical filtration system. When I see clear water and it smells fresh to the nose - I know I have good water quality. Without even measuring I know my numbers are right. As for the specifics - high pH fot Tanganyikans or low pH for soft water fish or calcium for corals, etc etc you know what I mean - those are what I call specifics because each group comes with it's own demands. But as for "Water Quality" my interpretation of that is simple. By product of waste is mimimun - this means low Nitrate reading - ammonia and nitrite should always be 0 and water clarity should be clear and particulate matter free. That is my understanding of good water quality. Unless specifics are mentioned they are not discussed and somoe are a given depending on what creature you are keeping in your aquarium.
Mr Wild
06-16-2009, 06:29 PM
Tito
I think your signature says it all! But thanks for asking the question as I think you "said out loud" what many people have been asking themselves! LOL Cheers mate.
Tito
I think your signature says it all! But thanks for asking the question as I think you "said out loud" what many people have been asking themselves! LOL Cheers mate.
LOL
Honest to goodness - it really drives me crazy when I see all those post about thease massive water changes and water quality. I felt like, um, what did I miss all this time - I thought I knew what I was doing. LOL LOL
Mr Wild
06-16-2009, 07:32 PM
Well I have always been limited by the fact we are on tank water so changing out 100's of litres is just not feasable for me so I have always taken the approach, keep clean filters and over filter if I can and I still do 1/3 change per week same as I used to for my fancy goldies. I also watch what I feed and I have a little battery operated syphon that I use for my juvies to get any uneaten food out during the day if I have overfed. BN's take care of the big tank, I think you just have to think about!
discussmith
06-16-2009, 09:37 PM
The large WC practice came from many large breeder operations who were heavily stocking tanks with fish they were feeding for fast growth as they price based on size. It is the experience of most that discus while very hardy are susceptible to dissolved organic compounds from fish waste and uneaten food. This is more so with young fish and no amount of filtration is as efficient as water changes in insuring success raising discus. One has to determine what stocking level is possible for the water change regimen one is able to do. What tends to happen is once one has some discus and they grow into well colored good size fish they tend to want more and start pushing the envelope.
The large WC practice came from many large breeder operations who were heavily stocking tanks with fish they were feeding for fast growth as they price based on size. It is the experience of most that discus while very hardy are susceptible to dissolved organic compounds from fish waste and uneaten food. This is more so with young fish and no amount of filtration is as efficient as water changes in insuring success raising discus. One has to determine what stocking level is possible for the water change regimen one is able to do. What tends to happen is once one has some discus and they grow into well colored good size fish they tend to want more and start pushing the envelope.
Still even with this being said, all that I see in this scenario is a large Nitrate buildup - which is harmful to all fish if not removed.
This is why I brought the subject up for discussion. Because I really think that a lot of Discus keepers are just following the leader without really knowing why they are following. Just that they know to do lots of water changes.
Water is primarily changed in aquariums because of nitrate buildup. Of course organics (nutrients) will build up as well and that is a secondary reason for water changes. However, carbon can be used to reduced organics but carbon will not remove nitrate. Reinforcing my statement - that water is changed primarily because of nitrate buildup - a long term poison to fish.
discussmith
06-16-2009, 10:34 PM
Many do know this and many may not but do it because they were told to and had success doing so. You can't argue with that. Also many here don't use carbon as they fear it may remove beneficial water elements and also have no idea when it is used up and no longer doing anything but supporting the bio filter so again depend on water changes to remove or dilute unwanted compounds. I find no fault with someone who leaves this hobby because they realized they lost fish because they just could not keep up with the water changes necessary for them to have success. I also cannot question or criticize someone who has 4 discus in a 90 gal. tank and change 50% or more of the water every day and is happy because their fish are happy and healthy whether they understand water chemistry or not.
Many do know this and many may not but do it because they were told to and had success doing so. You can't argue with that. Also many here don't use carbon as they fear it may remove beneficial water elements and also have no idea when it is used up and no longer doing anything but supporting the bio filter so again depend on water changes to remove or dilute unwanted compounds. I find no fault with someone who leaves this hobby because they realized they lost fish because they just could not keep up with the water changes necessary for them to have success. I also cannot question or criticize someone who has 4 discus in a 90 gal. tank and change 50% or more of the water every day and is happy because their fish are happy and healthy whether they understand water chemistry or not.
I agree with you on your comment. I for one do not use chemicals for filtration.
With that being said...one who keeps fish outght to know the fundamentals of the nitrogen cycle. As I'm sure most folks here know it. But the angle I'm coming from is why keep the culture alive? The culture of making statements about water quality and water changes with no real substance behind the claims. I can tell you that the average marine coral and fish hobbyist will get pretty deep in water chemistry discussions. kind of the way some Discus keepers get real deep with microbes and microscopes.
And I believe what I am also trying to say here is that I have done nothing vastly different in keeping my water quality good and Discus healthy then I have done for any other fish I have kept.
discussmith
06-16-2009, 11:12 PM
But you're talking apples and oranges as reefers would love to be able to just change water without the cost of salt just like I would love to have a protein skimmer to grab D O C's before they enter the water column and not have to change water as often.
Chad Hughes
06-16-2009, 11:19 PM
Tito,
From all that I read and my experience, all I can confidently say is that most change huge amounts of water for two reasons.
1. They have huge amounts of fish in a small voume of water. It would make sense to change huge amounts of water.
2. Some people believe that there is some mysterious growth inhibitor that discus emit. Naturally you want to remove this through water changes.
Most take the stance, that if you are beginning in discus and have little or no knowledge about water chemistry, then changing water in large volumes at a high frequency is the way to go. I can understand that. For those of us that have a better working understanding of how the captive aquarium works there's better methods to optimum aquaria health.
I guess the biggest point of misunderstanding is who is the one with the knowledge and who isn't. Do you feel that you have a good understanding of aquaria water chemistry? If so, move forward with your knowledge. If you have doubts, then maybe large water changes are your best option. It's a matter of opinion and confidence level IMO.
I try and maintain the most balanced ecosystems that I can and have had great success with minimal water changes, perfectly clear "0" parameter water, and no disease. I don't wish to change something that works. Do I recommend that to just anyone? No.
Hope that didn't confuse anyone!
Best wishes!
Jhhnn
06-17-2009, 12:11 AM
First off, I don't think that using aged, conditioned and aerated water for daily changes actually harms the bio-community at all. Yeh, sure, it'll exist at a somewhat lower level than with less frequent changes, simply because more water changes mean less food for bacteria...
Young discus need huge quantities of food if they're to grow out properly. Even with really good biofilters, nitrate levels will become unacceptably high w/o the means to remove them- either water changes or live plants or a combination of both.
My own discus tank is a good example. I have a bare bottom 125 tall tank, which works out to an actual 105gal of water. I'm running 4 of the hydroIII sponge filters, and have another as the prefilter on a cascade 1000 canister, packed with foam and ceramic rings.
The 8 fish were obtained at ~3-3/4" to 4" TL from Kenny on April 4 of this year. The largest now exceed 5", with even the smallest not far behind. I feed 4-5 times a day, with chunks of frozen brine shrimp, mysis, bloodworms, beefheart or eddie's seafood mix. Each feeding is a chunk ~1-1/4" square, and the thickness that usually comes in the 16oz flatpacks. That's a lot of food, and a huge bioload.
I'm getting ready to do their usual 50% daily water change/ vacuuming, and just tested the water with my seachem kits. Free ammonia 0, Total ammonia just a hint of color, Nitrites 0, Nitrates ~20ppm...
And that's the worst I let it get wrt nitrates. If I didn't do such large and frequent water changes, nitrates would obviously soar to unacceptable levels with that much food. And they love to eat, basically leaving nothing behind except the flakes in the seafood mix, which is their fave nonetheless, and the last feeding before the water change.
I want 6"-7" fish, and if that doesn't happen in the first year, it'll never happen. And it's not just an issue of length, but rather of mass, with 7" fish likely having ~ twice the weight of 5" fish...
I strongly suspect that growing out something like blue knights to their true potential of 8"-9" would require even more food and more water...
Eddie
06-17-2009, 05:39 AM
First, I don't think newbies are the only people doing massive waterchanges. The majority, if not all of the experts, do massive water changes.
Everybody has their opinion on what is required or what they can do just to get by.
It will always boil down to size of tank, stocking levels, age of fish, foods you feed, how often you feed, water chemistry. Because this is a variable for everyone, no one person has the same exact set-up. When I say water chemistry, that is the water make-up in regards to KH, GH and what it is that is in the water that gives those numbers.
So you see....nobody can say one way is the only way. Which you will find, is not too common. You'll mainly find the alot of people leaning towards performing alot of water changes.
As far as those who have grown fish out from fry to adult in a tank that received minimal waterchanges, I have yet to see one. And those who actually say they have, do not ever have proof (comments like, I don't need to show my fish to prove it). I'm sorry but proof is only proved by positive results. They will always show you an adult fish, without any kind of a timeline on the effects of waterchanges or lack there of.
This is why Chad's way will be very interesting and although there is less waterchanged, the average discus keeper is not going to get an ozonizer for the purposes of water conservation. Now if this method works, there will probably be alot more hobbyists looking into these type of systems. As so far, Chad's fish are growing right along those individual's who are doing daily WCs. I'll have to say, it's quite amazing and those are the results I am talking about. ;)
Seems like most here know what they are doing. Great comments much appreciated.
I know that if someone asked me, hey why are you doing so many water changes or why are you changing water, or why 50% water change. My answer would not be....because they will grow quicker, or because the fish will love it, or the fish will grow to 9". I think these are empty answers with no real substance.
Answers to question like that require more specifics. I'm change water because my nitrate levels are too high. I'm changing water because there are too many nutirents in the water - see the million MTS on the sand, wood and glass. I'm changing water because it looks yellow like pee. I'm changing water because phosphates are too high - see all the brown algea (diatoms) on the glass.
in other words - I think hobbyist (especially newbies) need those kinds of answers. That way they can investigate more and learn more.
Otherwise what you get is a hobbyist that learns to just change water for their Discus and they in turn post 100 threads in a Discus forum about doing massive water changes daily but providing no real reason why. LOL
I detected this when I read a few threads that revealed certain hobbyist have only kept Discus and no other fish. That IMO has kept them to a real narrow experience in fish keeping as well as matching husbandry in fish keeping.
That there are variables goes without saying - life is a big bowl of variables. But that doesn't mean that a fella like me can't decide one day to create a thread that would hopefully help a Discus only fish keeper (the housewife that saw them somewhere and decided to just keep them) to learn why she is doing the water changes.
So I dedicate this thread to the Housewife who has a name for all of her Discus and changes their water every single day.
Edit: BTW I don't believe there is any proof that the guy changing 100% water everyday does better with his fish then the guy changing 50% every three days. Because like some of you have mentioned every tank is different. It's the very reason why I created this thread. Every tank is different - this is why it is best that we know why we are changing water. Knowing why leads to knowing when and how much as well.
LOL
Thanks everyone for your comments and opinions. Much appreciated. Since their was nothing scientific about this we shouldn't get so caught up in it...but I beleive the mystery of the Shourd of Turin has been uncovered.
Dkarc@Aol.com
06-17-2009, 10:50 AM
There is a theory about conductivity and the fishes osmoregulatory system that was passed down to me by an old time discus breeder from Chicago not too long ago (water chem guru). To make it short, the longer the water is in the tank, the higher the conductivity goes. Discus osmoregulatory system doesnt like this gradual climb and to maintain the lower conductivity we do water changes to bring it back to normal. You basically base your water change schedule on the conductivity readings (when conductivity increase 150% over base number, do water change). There is much more to this theory but it is much too involved for me to type right now. I intend to test these theories here very shortly when we get into normal production at the greenhouse.
-Ryan
kaceyo
06-17-2009, 02:19 PM
It makes alot more sense than the growth inhibitor hormones. At least it seems more plausible.
Kacey
Roxanne
06-17-2009, 03:06 PM
...I thought discussmith nailed it well...
...the other variable is the quality or condition of the fish you aquire. If you have a disease outbreak you end up doing massive, constant WC's to either get meds out, in preparation to medicate, or lower pathogen count in order to get control of the "water quality" and therefore the health of the fish...
Everyone's source water is different also which can be directly related to the frequency and volume of WC's..... (or laziness of the fish keeper)...In my case, ph starts bouncing after three days in the tank, very soft, but prone to crash if I don't buffer with CC.....Massive WC's are not possible for everyone, and your question, I think, is why do some do so well without them is a valid one, it's just that there are so many variables. But, you can't argue with the size the Japanese are getting with their fish through daily 100% water changes..maybe it's easier than cleaning filters lol....pathogens would barely have a chance to take hold and destroy what by comparison to the average hobbyists, would be entire hatcheries...
I've owned all kinds of fish, I've found discus are easy to keep IF they are not diseased to start with...
Roxanne
There is a theory about conductivity and the fishes osmoregulatory system that was passed down to me by an old time discus breeder from Chicago not too long ago (water chem guru). To make it short, the longer the water is in the tank, the higher the conductivity goes. Discus osmoregulatory system doesnt like this gradual climb and to maintain the lower conductivity we do water changes to bring it back to normal. You basically base your water change schedule on the conductivity readings (when conductivity increase 150% over base number, do water change). There is much more to this theory but it is much too involved for me to type right now. I intend to test these theories here very shortly when we get into normal production at the greenhouse.
-Ryan
Now we're talking!;)
And Roxanne I really like your answer as well;)
Cleaner water is better for the fish, discus or not. Larger water changes provide cleaner environment for the fish than small water changes. Not too difficult to understand. I think every fish keeper knows that.
jerbear
06-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Cleaner water is better for the fish, discus or not. Larger water changes provide cleaner environment for the fish than small water changes. Not too difficult to understand. I think every fish keeper knows that.
I believe Tito raises a valid question. What is consider “clean” and where is the threshold that unclean water would hinder the health and growth of the fish? Of course, I and may others don’t what to find out where that threshold is on our own so we follow the pack with frequent, massive water changes without really knowing if it is needed. I don’t know if there is actually an easy answer but look forward to hearing more from Ryan and watching Chad's progress.
kaceyo
06-17-2009, 05:33 PM
Cleaner water is better for the fish, discus or not. Larger water changes provide cleaner environment for the fish than small water changes. Not too difficult to understand. I think every fish keeper knows that.
Regardless of the reasons behind it, anyone who has actually raised discus both ways, with infrequent wc's and daily wc's, can see the benifits in growth rate, improved shape, and health of the fish in general. Are daily wc's a requirment? Of course not. Will it increase your chances of success and make a difference in the end results? Absolutly.
Alot depends on what you want to get out of it and your level of satisfaction with your fish. Some want to have a tank with a few nice, healthy discus. Others want to see the best and biggest discus they could possibly get.
Personally, I like to go for the biggest and best I can make them. And I'm really looking forward to Ryan's project answering some questions we all have about the best way to do that
Kacey
Don Trinko
06-17-2009, 05:43 PM
What is "clean water" and how clean does it have to be for healthy discus?
When you visit other peoples houses you see a variety of "cleanliness" yet most families are healthy. Some people keep their garbage can in the kitchen, others outside. We had an exchange student who took several showers every day. My kids just took one and maybee not every day.
My point is that their is probably a range of conditions that discus do well in and even giving them near perfect conditions does not insure you will have the bigest, pretiest discus. There is however a point of "unclean" that your discus will probably get sick eventualy and not do as well. Where is the point? I don't know. All of this IMO; Don T.
DiscusOnly
06-17-2009, 06:13 PM
I know it may not give you an exact answer but NADA has a very good writeup on caring for discus.
http://www.discusnada.org/discus/care.html
Just remember that discus is not your garden variety fresh water fish. From my experience, keeping in line with the basics of the articles is a good way to keep healthy discus regardless of it's size (stunted or not).
In my opinion. Anyone with no prior experience in keeping fish should not start with Discus. Discus are hardy if the are healthy in a clean environment. Neglect the tank and spook a discus and see what happen.
Dkarc@Aol.com
06-17-2009, 07:05 PM
That's interesting; considering that the physiology of the fish is designed to be in low everything water there may may be something to this...start testing:)
Not to derail the thread any, but go to this link and download the May newsletter. In it you will find Joe Gargas give a fairly large write up about himself and about conductivity, osmoregulation, etc....it is good reading material.
http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpages/newsletter.html
-Ryan
Not to derail the thread any, but go to this link and download the May newsletter. In it you will find Joe Gargas give a fairly large write up about himself and about conductivity, osmoregulation, etc....it is good reading material.
http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpages/newsletter.html
-Ryan
Thanks! I enjoyed that article. Since I have kept salt water fish and Tangayikans before - I was familiar with many of the terms he used.
Jhhnn
06-17-2009, 09:28 PM
I think one of the things potential discus keepers need to have together is a water changing plan and the means to carry it out, whether that's along the lines of Chad's or my own, or something in between. It's all too easy to let it go when it's a tiresome chore.
Having kept discus years ago, I knew that I wanted to make it easy w/o spending a fortune to do so. Back then, I really only had the ability to change 25% of the water 2 or 3 times/week with a rather laborious process involving moving around a lot of hose... I really fell into the current 50% daily change routine through a combination of circumstances, starting with the used 125gal tank and a blue 55gal aging drum. As a homeowner, I had the freedom to put the barrel in the cellar, plumb to it, create a passage to pump water up to the tank, and to create two drainage systems- one to the sewer, and one to the yard. After a bit of trial and error, I marked the tank where the contents of the barrel refill it completely- that's my mark where I siphon to. Risk of overfilling thru inattention is zero. It takes a trip or two to the cellar for the process, which is actually a good thing- my cellar workshop cleanliness has benefitted tremendously, because I need to be there to start/stop the fill cycle on the barrel after the tank fill cycle ends, reconnect the barrel heater. I'm distrustful of float valves...
I'm setting up a used 75gal reef tank to house more of Kenny's fish, and I'll probably just change 50gal/ day in that tank, (2/3 vs 1/2) as well- I have all the stuff to set it up that way, and it's too easy not to do so.
The increase in my water bill is basically immaterial- I only pay $1.91/1000 gals up to 22K gals/month, with current usage being 17K gals/month- actually pretty frugal for a family of 4...
I suspect that I may want to re-evaluate if I expand my tankspace even more, probably increasing my ability to drain more tanks simultaneously, maybe change water less often, probably introduce some floating plants...
For now, it seems to work well w/o a huge amount of fuss, so I'll stick with it. Given the investment in livestock, I figure it's best to err on the side of caution.
I will admit that my tank wasn't properly cycled when I took possession of the fish, and that it was my only tank at the time, so nitrites tried to spike very strongly. I used a little extra prime, added some salt, and sometimes changed 50% of the water twice daily to control that until the biofilter became firmly established...
Eddie
06-19-2009, 03:07 AM
Tito, do what works well for you and that's all that matters. If you are happy with your fish than be happy with them.
Eddie
Tito, do what works well for you and that's all that matters. If you are happy with your fish than be happy with them.
Eddie
Um...ok Ed, thanks.
And if you want to change 100% of your water everyday by all means don't let anyone stop you. LOL
But I didn't start this thread to change anyone's regime..... just to have clarity on a term that I feel is being thrown all over the place without substantial backing.
Eddie
06-19-2009, 09:23 PM
Um...ok Ed, thanks.
And if you want to change 100% of your water everyday by all means don't let anyone stop you. LOL
But I didn't start this thread to change anyone's regime..... just to have clarity on a term that I feel is being thrown all over the place without substantial backing.
Um, yeah thats right, 100% works very well for me and if my fish don't turn out the way I want them too, its all my fault, not anyone elses. ;)
Eddie
Um, yeah thats right, 100% works very well for me and if my fish don't turn out the way I want them too, its all my fault, not anyone elses. ;)
Eddie
Eddie,
Have you ever considered that the fish will turn out as nature intended them to? Their genetic makup will largely do what it will do automatically.
If you kept poor water quality and fed the fish minimally - there is a good chance the fish wont develop well.
So really, as long as we provided an ample supply of quality food and along with maintaining the required water parameters for good health - the fish will turn out just fine.
That fish will become spectacular through feeding the finest ingredients and providing super fresh tap water every day - really I think that's up in the air. I would say that there are are folks here who say their Discus turned out ok in a planted tank and others who say their Discus turn out ok in a bare bottom tank - along with the various water changing regimes. So, ther is no one way of doing it.
but again, to flat out say - change this amount this often - and make it a rule without a scientific reason is just an opinion.
Eddie
06-19-2009, 10:23 PM
Eddie,
Have you ever considered that the fish will turn out as nature intended them to? Their genetic makup will largely do what it will do automatically.
If you kept poor water quality and fed the fish minimally - there is a good chance the fish wont develop well.
So really, as long as we provided an ample supply of quality food and along with maintaining the required water parameters for good health - the fish will turn out just fine.
That fish will become spectacular through feeding the finest ingredients and providing super fresh tap water every day - really I think that's up in the air. I would say that there are are folks here who say their Discus turned out ok in a planted tank and others who say their Discus turn out ok in a bare bottom tank - along with the various water changing regimes. So, ther is no one way of doing it.
but again, to flat out say - change this amount this often - and make it a rule without a scientific reason is just an opinion.
Guess you couldn't read any of the past posts about there not being a complete and no different requirement about changing water. Go back and re-read some of the responses, not one person said you had to do anything.
Its okay if you feel the way you do, just be honest with yourself.
Eddie
Guess you couldn't read any of the past posts about there not being a complete and no different requirement about changing water. Go back and re-read some of the responses, not one person said you had to do anything.
Its okay if you feel the way you do, just be honest with yourself.
Eddie
Ok Eddie - not sure where this is going so I think I'll have to pull off the road here. To each his own is clear no doubt about that - I do understand.
What angle are you coming from not really sure at this point. This thread was created to get responses from hobbyist about the usage of water changes and how hobbyist just flat out recomend them with frequency and volume but offering no real science behind the advice. I can tell you that when I initially created this thread - with all honesty - YOU were the last person on my mind. In fact - you weren't even on my mind. So if I stepped on a toe - sorry but I was reflecting on a couple of threads I have read and I felt like writing this thread.
Again - time for me to pull off the road here since I'm feelin a little heat LOL
Eddie
06-19-2009, 10:34 PM
Ok Eddie - not sure where this is going so I think I'll have to pull off the road here. To each his own is clear no doubt about that - I do understand.
What angle are you coming from not really sure at this point. This thread was created to get responses from hobbyist about the usage of water changes and how hobbyist just flat out recomend them with frequency and volume but offering no real science behind the advice. I can tell you that when I initially created this thread - with all honesty - YOU were the last person on my mind. In fact - you weren't even on my mind. So if I stepped on a toe - sorry but I was reflecting on a couple of threads I have read and I felt like writing this thread.
Again - time for me to pull off the road here since I'm feelin a little heat LOL
Sounds like a good idea, I was actually going to recommend a PM to work it out. Any time you want further the discussion, please PM. We are all talking about the same thing, changing water.
TTYS,
Eddie
DiscusOnly
06-19-2009, 10:37 PM
That fish will become spectacular through feeding the finest ingredients and providing super fresh tap water every day - really I think that's up in the air. I would say that there are are folks here who say their Discus turned out ok in a planted tank and others who say their Discus turn out ok in a bare bottom tank - along with the various water changing regimes. So, ther is no one way of doing it.
There is a wide range of what is "OK". Everyone expectation differs so they apply different methods. The expection of a "good" discus is much higher among discus hobbyist on this site than someone who just keep fish.
Are the folks who do these massive WC over doing it? Probably.. They could probably scale back but to what point? That's for each individual to decide. Telling someone to "over do" and then scale back is much better than to start the other way.
Eddie
06-19-2009, 10:42 PM
There is a wide range of what is "OK". Everyone expectation differs so they apply different methods. The expection of a "good" discus is much higher among discus hobbyist on this site than someone who just keep fish.
Are the folks who do these massive WC over doing it? Probably.. They could probably scale back but to what point? That's for each individual to decide. Telling someone to "over do" and then scale back is much better than to start the other way.
Van, you are very correct, where is the line drawn to get maximum potential in growth. Alot of that really depends on what was stated before, there are so many variables that come into play. Hell, I'd like to think that I overdo water changes, but to be honest, I myself don't think I do enough by the way I stock and the way I feed. Now those are just my opinions and what I think is best for the development of my fish.
Good point Van!
Eddie
There is a wide range of what is "OK". Everyone expectation differs so they apply different methods. The expection of a "good" discus is much higher among discus hobbyist on this site than someone who just keep fish.
Are the folks who do these massive WC over doing it? Probably.. They could probably scale back but to what point? That's for each individual to decide. Telling someone to "over do" and then scale back is much better than to start the other way.
I agree.
Again, if I have a "bone" to pick it's the mass use of water changes (especially the frequency and volume) but many a times (too many a times) no real science is offered. Just seems because it's a Discus Forum as a specialty that those kinds of advice are pretty heavy handed here. So I wanted to fish for some explanations as to why. Several responses here were pretty good. At least there was some science offered to research and investigate.
You have to see it from my perspective to appreciate the spirit of the thread.
I have kept all kinds of fish (am I perfect - hardly) have I exposed myself and increased my experience with various fish...um, yea. So when I read these kinds of water change recomendations (and out of all the forums I have frequented) I can definitely say that they seem to be exclusive to this forum......well, my red flags go up. That's all really.
Edit: I should say as well that I'm satisfied with some of the previous answers. Thanks to those who provided them - there was certainly logic behind the explanations. After a while you get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again without getting any real detail as to why one should follow the recomendation - at least scientific detail versus claims or hearsay.
Eddie
06-19-2009, 10:57 PM
I agree.
Again, if I have a "bone" to pick it's the mass use of water changes (especially the frequency and volume) but many a times (too many a times) no real science is offered. Just seems because it's a Discus Forum as a specialty that those kinds of advice are pretty heavy handed here. So I wanted to fish for some explanations as to why. Several responses here were pretty good. At least there was some science offered to research and investigate.
You have to see it from my perspective to appreciate the spirit of the thread.
I have kept all kinds of fish (am I perfect - hardly) have I exposed myself and increased my experience with various fish...um, yea. So when I read these kinds of water change recomendations (and out of all the forums I have frequented) I can definitely say that they seem to be exclusive to this forum......well, my red flags go up. That's all really.
You bring up good points Tito and I am not just a follower, I have kept my fair share of freshwater aq fish, since I was youngin. In reading many books on the requirements of Discus, I learned more than anything, that water quality was number one. How that water quality is met, well, there are many different ways. Easiest and probably the cheapest for "SOME" is by mechanically or manually removing the water in its entirety. As done by some breeders in Malaysia, only water changed, without filtration at all. Then you go into the another breeders set-up, take Mr. Danziger. He only changes 10% of the water in his hatchery and feeds only Tetrabits. Now he has a killer filtration system and uses a massive UV in combination. His fish are gorgeous and large, well proportioned. Its all down to how you handle the water quality, there are so many ways.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?p=543614#post543614
Eddie
CBZOO
06-20-2009, 07:54 AM
Tito,
I REALLY agree with you I used to be a waer chemist on a Nuclear Submarine so I know a Little bit about water quality and testing .. I have kept various kinds of fish for many years... That said I belive that wiht todays modern filters, modern comercial fish food and most of all Modern domesticated Discus they can be kept quite happy with a "normal" W/C routine.. Istarted a thread in another forum to get this type of discusion going.. I have to admit I was a little it put off about trying to have this discusion on this forum. I have to admire you for starting to at least question the whole W/C religion that discus keepers have on their home forum.... If you start out with larger 2" plus discus and keep a good clean water suppluy I belive you can keep this fish healthy and happy... Now raising fry and spawning sucessfully are two different subjects. Just as they are with other fish sucessfully spawning and raising fry are a completly diferent subjet... The gist of my other post onthe other forum was that I belive that there are alot of fish keepers out there who would like to keep discus but are put off about the high maitenance that is put forward on this and other forums...:bandana: If discus can sucessfully raise these fish in a variety of manners then it logically goes to the point that they can "thrive" in a wide range of parameters...
However we have also all seen pictures of stunted fish grown by fish keepers who do not really understand what discus require...
High quality fish food, Clean water (minimal nitrates, no amonium/Nitrites achived by proper filtration, plants, and W/C's) and most importantly proper tank mates!!! These fish are not agressive feeders and this needs to be taken into account. Just my 2 cents take it for what it cost you...
Eddie
06-20-2009, 08:19 AM
Edit: I should say as well that I'm satisfied with some of the previous answers. Thanks to those who provided them - there was certainly logic behind the explanations. After a while you get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again without getting any real detail as to why one should follow the recomendation - at least scientific detail versus claims or hearsay.
I didn't really see any research posted but if you want some good books Tito, I can point a few out. They are really in depth on the water requirements for discus and the importance of both filtration and water changes. ;)
Shoot me a PM if you are interested
Eddie
Don Trinko
06-20-2009, 08:21 AM
I'm a 50% twice a week wc guy but I do realize that this does not apply to raising fry....So I think 100% daily is neccisary for fry and probably up to 1.5 to 2" size. Many breeders violate the "1 disus per 10g " guide and this would also explain why large daily wc are neccisary for them. I do not question that these wc routines work. I wish that there was a scientific method for wc but it apears that there is not.
I confess that I have never raised a batch of discus from eggs. All of mine started at 2" or more. I have raised angels and Bettas and I have had fish since the mid 1950's. Most of my fish live a long time. I have a black fin tetra that is over 8 years old and cory's over 6. Don T.
Eddie
06-20-2009, 08:30 AM
Just a portion of one of Al's posts, that may not be scientific enough for some, it is for me.
Post #51
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=68836&page=4
Water changes may have attained some religious status among discus keepers.. but even myths are based in facts if you dig deep enough...and though it may be a myth to some that frequent water changes are necessary to raise big, healthy , well developed discus....its a fact that water changes remove accumumated waste, decrease parasite numbers, allow for intensive feedings associated with good Growth and developement of Discus.. How much to change varies depending on tanks, equipment, water parameters, and hobbyists goals and experiences. My biggest problem with when people say that water changes aren't needed is that the hobbyists new to all this usually wind up paying the price when they follow that line of thinking as "advised"... Doing water changes isn't a guarantee that you'll raise great fish...but it really helps as a starting point by removing variables that more experienced Hobbyists take for granted, IMO.
So theres my 2 Cents on water changes and discus....and yes..I change water here.
hth,
al...doing water changes as I type
Roxanne
06-20-2009, 05:14 PM
I think too, the bigger the fish, the more waste...if you compare a discus body mass and gill mass to say a guppy....more waste and DOC's etc
If they had the same requirements as other fish, there wouldn't be so much literature from experts such as Heckel, Wattley, Untergasser, Soh, Giovanetti and Brewmaster (;))advocating clean water for them. If you read up on the history of wild discus catching, they had all kinds of losses from their wild catches until they sussed out the water thing...there has to be something to it ..I remember catching minnows from a local swamp when I was a kid and by next morning they would all be dead...my mother in the back ground saying "You can't do that...they need special water...blah blah nag nag etc etc"
Those Betta fish can live in a puddle....Discus can not. Different fish, different requirements. There appears to be a wide range of water extremes that Discus do well in. None of them are dirty water...
I think also, people who get away with doing very few water changes are way understocked, don't overfeed, have good source water, start of with fish that are not diseased, aren't stressed by any other factor in their environment, haven't introduced other fish to the mix...it will be very interesting to see what the outcome is regarding the "Osmoregulation Factor"...
Rox
I'm glad to see so many responses to this thread, especially from the hobbyist that are well established here. It shows that this is a very important topic. Eddie - glad to see you in the conversation making good points. I should say that it was never my point to offend anyone here or their advice or regimes. But I am used to folks providing much more info in water chemistry discussions. I guess it depends on the type of aquarium and fish being kept. CBZOO you made a point that I was trying to make before in another post - that even seasoned hobbyist can be turned off from keeping Discus when they se post after post stating change water every day 80% 100% - you know many people just don't have the time or resources for something like that - especially those who have to pay for water. And when you factor in that it may not be neccesary to change that much water. Roxanne I agree that Discus require a tad bit more care especially in water quality - but I'm sure glad I'm not breeding Discus as a business - I would imagine that I would sell less fish if 80% of my potential market is being turn off from buying because they have to make 80% daily water changes. So there needs to be a balance and forums like this one can be very influential in a person's choice to buy and keep Discus. For sure no seasoned poster here is going to tell anyone that they don't have to change water or something silly like that to keep Discus. I'm more concerned with the over the top advice and posts than anything esle. I can tell you that many hobbyist friends of mine that keep Afrcians wont touch Discus. They say they are to hard to keep. We all know that isnt true.
CBZOO
06-21-2009, 07:57 AM
I know for a fact that there are lots of people who have talked to me about trying discus... They are really put off on the LARGE comitment to W/C's that is put out here and on other sites... I have had many people come over to my house and be amazed at the beauty of my discus that I raised in a lightly planted tank with only weekly W/C's...
I have told many people in my opinion modern domesticated Discus are a faily simple to keep. get a tank capable of holding 6 adult fish IE 75 gallon. Get a double T12 of T5 light with 6700K bulbs. Some fast growing stem plants and some java moss and posibly a good sized potted sword plant. Good quality canister filter. Chage 50% of the water and do a gravel vacuum and clean the filter weekly. Some Sterbie cories to get the missed food. And throw in a few BN's to control Algea. Then get some 2-3" juvies from a reputable breeder and enjoy.
I happen to know some one who "WAS" REALLY into discus so much so it was taking all her time....because of the HUGE investment in her time she sold off all her tanks and fish to buy one large tank and then got a few discus... She does once a week W/C's and had never been happier with her fish..
I keep fish for the enjoyment they give me not for profit or selling.. I think we could have alot more people out here happily keeping discus if we were a little bit less religous about telling people that they HAVE to do 50- 80% WC every day to sucessfully keep discus.
Remeber people I am talking about keeping the fish not breeding nor am I talking about raising Fry to the 2-3" size..
I could also go on about the near religous belief on here that the biggest roundest discus is the hapiest healthest fish..
I have a large over 7" male cobalt that is absoulty stunning.. However he will not breed with any fish I have had with him.. He has spawned three or four times and that is all...
However I have a pair of BD Cobalt that are "only" 5" in diameter and I can not keep them from spawing.....
I have also talked to several professional breeders who agree with me that "LARGE Show" type male are never their best breeders.. So take it for what is worth... I know I have potentialy stepped on a lot of cherished beliefs with this post... But I am confident that people here are adult enough to have a thoughtfull converstaion about this... Anyway that is only my humble opinion and I know that Everyones experince is differnt. I just hope to open up the world of discus keeping to more people... Those of you who do breed these wonderfull fish should encourage more of this type of fishkeeping.. More people willing to keep these fish means more people to sell them to...:)
Eddie
06-21-2009, 08:18 AM
I know for a fact that there are lots of people who have talked to me about trying discus... They are really put off on the LARGE comitment to W/C's that is put out here and on other sites... I have had many people come over to my house and be amazed at the beauty of my discus that I raised in a lightly planted tank with only weekly W/C's...
I have told many people in my opinion modern domesticated Discus are a faily simple to keep. get a tank capable of holding 6 adult fish IE 75 gallon. Get a double T12 of T5 light with 6700K bulbs. Some fast growing stem plants and some java moss and posibly a good sized potted sword plant. Good quality canister filter. Chage 50% of the water and do a gravel vacuum and clean the filter weekly. Some Sterbie cories to get the missed food. And throw in a few BN's to control Algea. Then get some 2-3" juvies from a reputable breeder and enjoy.
I happen to know some one who "WAS" REALLY into discus so much so it was taking all her time....because of the HUGE investment in her time she sold off all her tanks and fish to buy one large tank and then got a few discus... She does once a week W/C's and had never been happier with her fish..
I keep fish for the enjoyment they give me not for profit or selling.. I think we could have alot more people out here happily keeping discus if we were a little bit less religous about telling people that they HAVE to do 50- 80% WC every day to sucessfully keep discus.
Remeber people I am talking about keeping the fish not breeding nor am I talking about raising Fry to the 2-3" size..
I could also go on about the near religous belief on here that the biggest roundest discus is the hapiest healthest fish..
I have a large over 7" male cobalt that is absoulty stunning.. However he will not breed with any fish I have had with him.. He has spawned three or four times and that is all...
However I have a pair of BD Cobalt that are "only" 5" in diameter and I can not keep them from spawing.....
I have also talked to several professional breeders who agree with me that "LARGE Show" type male are never their best breeders.. So take it for what is worth... I know I have potentialy stepped on a lot of cherished beliefs with this post... But I am confident that people here are adult enough to have a thoughtfull converstaion about this... Anyway that is only my humble opinion and I know that Everyones experince is differnt. I just hope to open up the world of discus keeping to more people... Those of you who do breed these wonderfull fish should encourage more of this type of fishkeeping.. More people willing to keep these fish means more people to sell them to...:)
Right on! :D
Right on! :D
Right on as well.
Eddie
06-21-2009, 02:12 PM
Right on as well.
Fight the power! :D
Chad Hughes
06-21-2009, 02:16 PM
LOL! That made me laugh. :p
wgtaylor
06-21-2009, 02:17 PM
Ok guys, this is going to be long but..................it happens to be a primary interest of mine.
I remember years ago the professional discus breeders recommended new discus hobbyists start with a
55 gallon tank and 6 two inch discus. Six was usually recommended not because one or two was bad but 6 would
almost insure getting a pair. Also the recommendation was for a sponge filter for biological filter and a hang on
the back filter to keep the water clean. Wipe the sides of the tank and do a 50 % water change daily to keep the parasite
level in check and remove nitrates. Use whatever water that came out of the tap, first carbon filter then aerate or use dechlor.
15 minutes per day and in a year you would have beautiful adult discus. Anything beyond that is an embellishment to a
very, very simple method for success. Any beginner can raise discus.
Facts are nothing more than documented repeatable experiments so that method is a fact.
For decades large discus hatcheries have been raising discus using that same simple approach, not because they have an
abundance of water but because it is simple and successful.
That has been repeated,that is a fact.
Now in some areas water has become a precious commodity and we need to find alternate methods of raising discus using
higher tech filtration and foods. All of this is good for conservation by all means but not easily adapted without years of
experience with fish husbandry. While large water changes may turn off a beginning discus keeper so might be said for
a high tech filtration which is so finely balanced at anytime a solenoid failure may kill all your fish. Not recommended for a beginner.
Now for water quality and composition which has been a real interest of mine for quite a while.
I have seen discus living in bare tanks with a quarter inch of crud on the bottom and nitrate levels in the 60's. They can be
tough and sometimes survive in spite of severe neglect. But we try to give them the ultimate care and mimic nature.
If we could have a discus tank with a constant flow of new fresh soft water that would be ideal conditions for discus.
Discus come from this type environment, almost devoid of minerals, calcium and salt, just water, ph fluctuations are tolerated
by wild discus because they can move to a more preferred location. We use RO to soften our water and harden our water to
stabilize our ph and add small amounts of minerals to sustain life. How much, good question, do discus need minerals
in their water, evidently not much, here are some facts,
blackwater
conductivity 10 microseimens ~ 5 ppm
ph 4 - 5.5
<1 dH
clearwater
conductivity 15 microseimens ~ 8 ppm
ph 5.0 - 6.0
<1 dH
whitewater
conductivity 25 - 60 microseimens ~12 - 30 ppm
ph 6.4 - 7.0
<1 dH
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/wgtaylor/Water%20Change/amazonwaterparameters.jpg
Even the Amazon waters are variable but it is primarly rain water, softer than most of us offer our fine friends and they love us and survive.
We come from all over the world and all have different water conditions and ways to treat it but we have one thing in common,
to keep our water clean, feed good foods and enjoy this great hobby. Do it your way and be happy. :)
Information source,
http://www.amazonian-fish.co.uk/
Scribbles
06-21-2009, 03:00 PM
AMEN!
Chris
Eddie
06-21-2009, 03:10 PM
Hallelujah!
wgtaylor
06-21-2009, 03:46 PM
Let em call us the soggy bottom boys if they want but we know what works, that's a fact.
Bill
Eddie
06-21-2009, 03:49 PM
Let em call us the soggy bottom boys if they want but we know what works, that's a fact.
Bill
LOL, the soggy bottom boys....never heard that one before Bill. Thats pretty good. ;)
Take care,
Eddie
wgtaylor
06-21-2009, 03:55 PM
Sorry, was from a movie I watched, Oe Brother Where Art Thou, funny movie.
And I am not adverse to learning all that I can about new technologies in fish husbandry, it can have real rewards. I try not to criticize anyone for their opinions or methods,
just trying to keep it light hearted.
This is a great site and great information shared.
You do a great job Eddie, keep up the good work.
Bill
Well, all the major public aquariums marine and freshwater are setup to do daily water changes to keep the water fresh and remove pollution from the fish waste and dead animals and leftover food. I think they know what they are doing and I see a difference on my own fish and tanks when doing and not doing changes over the years. Doesn't take that long and assures you are checking the fish, heater and filters. Its my relaxing time of the day and I have it setup so I can watch a game or program while doing the change.
Roxanne
06-21-2009, 07:47 PM
Actually, that's an excellent example MSD. It would be good to know their exact reasoning for doing so as this will undoubtedly shed more light on the subject. I know you provided the waste removal examples. Just wondered if what they are accomplishing also is stable values.
I know alot of Sea Water Fish Hobby Shops get their water delivered in a truck that sucks it straight out of the ocean throught a filter into the tanker and then deposits the water straight into the holding tanks at the shop. I was there when one got a delivery, and when I asked how often the truck comes, he said once a month...customers purchase the water also for their reef tanks. That doesn't mean he only changes the water monthly though...and while this guy knows ZIP about discus and is genuinely confused by my regular water changes for mine, he has some of the most stunning examples of reef tanks you will ever see....horses, corals etc etc
I always thought if established filtration took care of the waste, then the water changes are more about keeping values as stable as possible and keeping DOC's down...
It's great to learn isn't it?
Rox
Don Trinko
06-21-2009, 07:59 PM
Most of the Salt Water fish keepers do less wc than for tropicals. Typical is 10% per week. Some do monthly changes but I haven't seen anyone say they do more than once a week. The majority also cycle their sw tanks by putting in a dead coctail shrimp. Say something abought using ammonia in sw and you are an oddball! Don T.
Eddie
06-21-2009, 11:40 PM
Sorry, was from a movie I watched, Oe Brother Where Art Thou, funny movie.
And I am not adverse to learning all that I can about new technologies in fish husbandry, it can have real rewards. I try not to criticize anyone for their opinions or methods,
just trying to keep it light hearted.
This is a great site and great information shared.
You do a great job Eddie, keep up the good work.
Bill
You do too Bill, we probably change about same amount of water a day on our tanks. And like you, I do everything manually and I love it, not much I'd rather do really.
For those so-called freedom fighters. LOL
Thats the biggest issue here I think, the whole, being a slave to your pets and not enjoying your pets. What!? Trust me, I'd be lucky to find a person that enjoys their fish as much as me. Give them what they need and they will love you for it and the fish and everyone will be happy.
Some people will just never understand, its all documented in every discus keeping book, there are alot of people who just haven't picked one up. A discus ain't a goldfish. Every fish has special requirements/needs. Because somebody has a nice fish in planted tank with every other type of fish, they have succeeded.....succeeded at what. Their own goal, as we all have our own goals. Some people head to the casino and win big, I lose big so i don't gamble.
Cheers
Eddie
Jhhnn
06-21-2009, 11:46 PM
Most of the Salt Water fish keepers do less wc than for tropicals. Typical is 10% per week. Some do monthly changes but I haven't seen anyone say they do more than once a week. The majority also cycle their sw tanks by putting in a dead coctail shrimp. Say something abought using ammonia in sw and you are an oddball! Don T.
It's a whole different world. Many saltwater invertebrates have symbiotic colonies of algae in their tissues, promoted by very strong lighting, and the use of wet/dry trickle filters and skimmers also makes a huge contribution to good water quality... not to mention use of all kinds of trace element supplements and even special anaerobic de-nitrifying filters...
Actual fish populations are usually pretty low compared to freshwater. One of my coworkers is a saltwater enthusiast- we compare notes often.
wgtaylor
06-22-2009, 12:10 AM
Well, all the major public aquariums marine and freshwater are setup to do daily water changes to keep the water fresh and remove pollution from the fish waste and dead animals and leftover food. I think they know what they are doing and I see a difference on my own fish and tanks when doing and not doing changes over the years. Doesn't take that long and assures you are checking the fish, heater and filters. Its my relaxing time of the day and I have it setup so I can watch a game or program while doing the change.
Couldn't agree more, it's relaxing for me too doing water changes. Even my wilds peck at my hands while I'm working. I don't do as many water changes on adults but it is a good time to get a good close check on them and they sure respond positively with that fresh water. When you enjoy what you are doing it's not work. :)
Bill
Actually, that's an excellent example MSD. It would be good to know their exact reasoning for doing so as this will undoubtedly shed more light on the subject. I know you provided the waste removal examples. Just wondered if what they are accomplishing also is stable values.
I know alot of Sea Water Fish Hobby Shops get their water delivered in a truck that sucks it straight out of the ocean throught a filter into the tanker and then deposits the water straight into the holding tanks at the shop. I was there when one got a delivery, and when I asked how often the truck comes, he said once a month...customers purchase the water also for their reef tanks. That doesn't mean he only changes the water monthly though...and while this guy knows ZIP about discus and is genuinely confused by my regular water changes for mine, he has some of the most stunning examples of reef tanks you will ever see....horses, corals etc etc
I always thought if established filtration took care of the waste, then the water changes are more about keeping values as stable as possible and keeping DOC's down...
It's great to learn isn't it?
Rox
Hi Rox,
You do a great job with your fish and I feel I am offering up my opinion to a already expert in the hobby. :)
This is how I was taught, an established filter will take care of the ammonia and nitrites leaving nitrates. It will break down waste in time but that waste is where some parasite eggs are expelled and will hatch.
Most discus parasite larva and eggs should be removed before they return to the host discus to restart their cycle thus the reason to wipe tank sides and at least 50% water change to rinse out pests.
The large water changes will also flush out the discus too, they will poop every time. Water changes also lowers nitrates and prevents ph from drifting. Discus with a low parasite load will stay healthy and happy.
Rox, I know you know all this but thought it was proper to be said here.
Take care,
Bill
Most of the Salt Water fish keepers do less wc than for tropicals. Typical is 10% per week. Some do monthly changes but I haven't seen anyone say they do more than once a week. The majority also cycle their sw tanks by putting in a dead coctail shrimp. Say something abought using ammonia in sw and you are an oddball! Don T.
Hey Don, that's funny about the cocktail shrimp. But saltwater species don't have parasites that would affect our fresh water fish would they? I might give one of them a try and keep it in a mesh so I could take it out if it got too aromaous. What great things we learn. :D
Bill
wgtaylor
06-22-2009, 12:31 AM
You do too Bill, we probably change about same amount of water a day on our tanks. And like you, I do everything manually and I love it, not much I'd rather do really.
For those so-called freedom fighters. LOL
Thats the biggest issue here I think, the whole, being a slave to your pets and not enjoying your pets. What!? Trust me, I'd be lucky to find a person that enjoys their fish as much as me. Give them what they need and they will love you for it and the fish and everyone will be happy.
Some people will just never understand, its all documented in every discus keeping book, there are alot of people who just haven't picked one up. A discus ain't a goldfish. Every fish has special requirements/needs. Because somebody has a nice fish in planted tank with every other type of fish, they have succeeded.....succeeded at what. Their own goal, as we all have our own goals. Some people head to the casino and win big, I lose big so i don't gamble.
Cheers
Eddie
Hi Eddie, guess we were posting at the same time.
We do think alike and have probably read many of the same books a gained experience from some of the great discus breeders. And I enjoy every one of my fish too. :)
When I build another fish room I will make it as simple to do water changes as I can but will have manual fill and drain lines so I can wipe down the tanks and re-fill manually.
I still believe that is an important step to flush the tank as well as the discus.
I also wouldn't mind having a biotype display tank with other fish but that will be a nice luxury.
Take care,
Bill
Eddie
06-22-2009, 12:48 AM
Hi Eddie, guess we were posting at the same time.
We do think alike and have probably read many of the same books a gained experience from some of the great discus breeders. And I enjoy every one of my fish too. :)
When I build another fish room I will make it as simple to do water changes as I can but will have manual fill and drain lines so I can wipe down the tanks and re-fill manually.
I still believe that is an important step to flush the tank as well as the discus.
I also wouldn't mind having a biotype display tank with other fish but that will be a nice luxury.
Take care,
Bill
You too buddy, take care and keep up the great work with those Albinos!
Eddie
Chad Hughes
06-22-2009, 12:55 AM
You do too Bill, we probably change about same amount of water a day on our tanks. And like you, I do everything manually and I love it, not much I'd rather do really.
For those so-called freedom fighters. LOL
Thats the biggest issue here I think, the whole, being a slave to your pets and not enjoying your pets. What!? Trust me, I'd be lucky to find a person that enjoys their fish as much as me. Give them what they need and they will love you for it and the fish and everyone will be happy.
Some people will just never understand, its all documented in every discus keeping book, there are alot of people who just haven't picked one up. A discus ain't a goldfish. Every fish has special requirements/needs. Because somebody has a nice fish in planted tank with every other type of fish, they have succeeded.....succeeded at what. Their own goal, as we all have our own goals. Some people head to the casino and win big, I lose big so i don't gamble.
Cheers
Eddie
I think I should write a new book. I don't do things like all the other books say and I always win at the casinos. LOL! :p
Eddie
06-22-2009, 12:59 AM
I think I should write a new book. I don't do things like all the other books say and I always win at the casinos. LOL! :p
You see Chad, there are those constant winners. ;)
Take care bro,
Eddie
Chad Hughes
06-22-2009, 01:45 AM
LOL! I guess so! How do you explain that? :confused:
Eddie
06-22-2009, 02:11 AM
LOL! I guess so! How do you explain that? :confused:
I don't know Bro but they do exist. ;)
I do actually think you should start a book on how you are able to maintain and successfully growout discus out of the norm. It is an interesting idea and you should really take it into consideration. Especially for those who do not have the water or cannot cover the expenses that mass water changes will amount to.
Eddie
Jhhnn
06-22-2009, 07:47 AM
Cost of water really isn't much of an issue for most Americans. As I pointed out earlier, I pay $1.91/1000gal, and the mean US price was $2.72/1000gal in 2000, per wikipedia-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_United_States
Chad's methods seem a lot more expensive to me- CO2 injection, ozonization, filter charcoal replacement, high intensity lighting...
Which is not to speak against them, at all, but rather to disallow the whole "expensive water" argument for most of us- I pay <$3/mo to change 50gal daily, plus a few cents for water conditioner and the price of keeping it at temperature...
If that's an issue, then the hobbyist needs to keep goldfish rather than discus...
Eddie
06-22-2009, 07:52 AM
Cost of water really isn't much of an issue for most Americans. As I pointed out earlier, I pay $1.91/1000gal, and the mean US price was $2.72/1000gal in 2000, per wikipedia-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_United_States
Chad's methods seem a lot more expensive to me- CO2 injection, ozonization, filter charcoal replacement, high intensity lighting...
Which is not to speak against them, at all, but rather to disallow the whole "expensive water" argument for most of us- I pay <$3/mo to change 50gal daily, plus a few cents for water conditioner and the price of keeping it at temperature...
If that's an issue, then the hobbyist needs to keep goldfish rather than discus...
<$3 is pretty good. I change 100% on 4 X 55 gallon tanks and 3 X 30 gallon tanks and its a pretty good monthly amount.
I actually remember Chad specifically stating that the cost of water in his area was costing some insane amount.
Cheers
Eddie
06-22-2009, 07:55 AM
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=70634
;)
I was watching a video of an Asian breeder and thought of you Eddie as they removed 100% of the water and the discus were lying on their sides flopping a bit. Looks harsh but the fish could not be better or bigger, I think he did it twice a day.
Eddie
06-22-2009, 08:30 AM
I was watching a video of an Asian breeder and thought of you Eddie as they removed 100% of the water and the discus were lying of their sides flopping a bit. Looks harsh but the fish could not be better or bigger, I think he did twice a day.
LOL, thats funny Mark. You know I would do 2 each 100% WCs every day on my juvie tanks if I could. :D
Take care,
Eddie
Roxanne
06-22-2009, 03:12 PM
...and all this time, the Okinawans are wondering where all their water is going lol...
Eddie
06-23-2009, 04:15 AM
...and all this time, the Okinawans are wondering where all their water is going lol...
LOL, I know...for real. No...it rains like crazy, one minute they are shouting drought, conserve water! Then the next minute it's torrential rains and flooding.
Eddie
Chad Hughes
06-23-2009, 10:59 AM
Eddie,
Are they really saying that they are in a drought? That place is so tropical! I can't imagine the need to conserve water. Like you said, it seems to be raining all the time!
Best wishes!
Eddie
06-23-2009, 11:06 AM
Eddie,
Are they really saying that they are in a drought? That place is so tropical! I can't imagine the need to conserve water. Like you said, it seems to be raining all the time!
Best wishes!
LOL, no but any time it doesnt rain for like a day, the papers start publishing articles on possible drought and the importance of water conservation. I guess there just isn't anything else to write about, so they have dig deep.
And yeah, it rains pretty much every day at some point. LOL
Take care,
Eddie
Chad Hughes
06-23-2009, 12:48 PM
LOL, no but any time it doesnt rain for like a day, the papers start publishing articles on possible drought and the importance of water conservation. I guess there just isn't anything else to write about, so they have dig deep.
And yeah, it rains pretty much every day at some point. LOL
Take care,
Eddie
LOL! That's what I thought. I know the rainy season on the mainland is VERY wet. No shortage of water there. Sure wish we had some of that rain in San Diego! LOL!
Take care brother!
shawnhu
06-24-2009, 03:52 AM
Probably the popolation level is so high that, without rain, there will be a shortage of water, depletion of water supply/storage at a rapid rate if there is not a re-newable source; this case being rain.
I can definately see that as an issue in Japan.
Bgroovy2
07-09-2009, 12:00 AM
First off, this thread has been a great read! A little common sense would not hurt this hobby. Does your WC plan have purpose or are you just doing it because that's what all the old timers recomend? I for one am not growing out juvies, but if I were, I would be doing mass changes because of all the food you have to dump in the tank. That being said, the magic number that I keep running accross in my books is 40ppm, don't let your nitrates get above 40ppm. This makes perfect sense. It's not the discus "like" clean water, it's that they are very adveresly affected by polution form their own waste! This is wittnessed by the easy onset for fin rot and HITH. It is the goal of my WC plan never let nitrates get above 10ppm. This is far below the threshhold of disease and makes my life a little easier. I change water when it is required to meet this goal, not just doing WC's for GP. If your goal is 0ppm, then you are not a fish keeper but a water pumper, go join your local FD! This is a hobby that should be very enjoyalbe an not just a ton of work.
Peace
Scribbles
07-09-2009, 12:19 AM
What you call work, I call fun. I do large wc on juvies to keep the water as clean as possible and my discus are more active and colorful after larger wc. Nitrites and amonia always 0 nitrates less than 5. There could also be things that we don't test for in the water.
Chris
Eddie
07-09-2009, 12:23 AM
First off, this thread has been a great read! A little common sense would not hurt this hobby. Does your WC plan have purpose or are you just doing it because that's what all the old timers recomend? I for one am not growing out juvies, but if I were, I would be doing mass changes because of all the food you have to dump in the tank. That being said, the magic number that I keep running accross in my books is 40ppm, don't let your nitrates get above 40ppm. This makes perfect sense. It's not the discus "like" clean water, it's that they are very adveresly affected by polution form their own waste! This is wittnessed by the easy onset for fin rot and HITH. It is the goal of my WC plan never let nitrates get above 10ppm. This is far below the threshhold of disease and makes my life a little easier. I change water when it is required to meet this goal, not just doing WC's for GP. If your goal is 0ppm, then you are not a fish keeper but a water pumper, go join your local FD! This is a hobby that should be very enjoyalbe an not just a ton of work.
Peace
Sorry Bill, its more than just nitrates. ;)
Also, it isn't only old timers that perform large water changes, check out some of today's superior fish hatcheries, like Wayne's for instance.
Best of luck with your fish,
Eddie
Bgroovy2
07-09-2009, 12:32 AM
Eddie; juvies aside, why do you do what you do?
Eddie
07-09-2009, 12:39 AM
Eddie; juvies aside, why do you do what you do?
Because I have more than 1 discus in my tank. ;)
Eddie
Bgroovy2
07-09-2009, 01:02 AM
I was actually hoping for an expilnation of your WC stratagy, but if that is to difficult, never mind:confused:
wgtaylor
07-09-2009, 01:08 AM
First off, this thread has been a great read! A little common sense would not hurt this hobby. Does your WC plan have purpose or are you just doing it because that's what all the old timers recomend? I for one am not growing out juvies, but if I were, I would be doing mass changes because of all the food you have to dump in the tank. That being said, the magic number that I keep running accross in my books is 40ppm, don't let your nitrates get above 40ppm. This makes perfect sense. It's not the discus "like" clean water, it's that they are very adveresly affected by polution form their own waste! This is wittnessed by the easy onset for fin rot and HITH. It is the goal of my WC plan never let nitrates get above 10ppm. This is far below the threshhold of disease and makes my life a little easier. I change water when it is required to meet this goal, not just doing WC's for GP. If your goal is 0ppm, then you are not a fish keeper but a water pumper, go join your local FD! This is a hobby that should be very enjoyalbe an not just a ton of work.
Peace
Bill
40 Gal, 1 Terquise discus, 3 angelfish, 10 neons
1 cory, 1 snail[/QUOTE]
Hi Bill,
Well, you have one discus and three angelfish in one fourty gallon tank and it would be too much work to take care of them in a way that has proven most effective for fifty years.
Along with the water changes it is necessary to wipe all surfaces of the tank, pump, air lines etc. to keep parasites in check. Most parasites of discus lay eggs that hatch in our tanks and then return to infect our discus. Adults can handle a much higher load of parasites but given time you will find yourself having to medicate to reduce parasite problems. Another reason for those water changes.
It is always the people that want discus but don't want the responsibilty to take care of them in a way that has been proven best that comes up with every justification why their method is superior to what has already been learned.
No offense but all methods have been tried and you will learn in time I hope.
Really wish you the best of luck with your discus but you should get a few more to keep him company and move your anglefish to a seperate tank.
Take care,
Bill
Eddie
07-09-2009, 01:16 AM
I was actually hoping for an expilnation of your WC stratagy, but if that is to difficult, never mind:confused:
All kidding aside Bill, I change alot of water for all of the reasons already explained earlier in this thread. Most of my fish are sub adults, not even 9 months of age. I feed them very well, very often and with messy messy food. The water becomes highly polluted which in turn creates a ideal environment for all sorts of bacteria/parasite to thrive. The water changes remove all this pollution and lower the numbers of nasty bugs in the water. On another note, Discus and I am sure most fish take in alot of nutrients through water, not just food. The essential elements in the water become used creating "spent water". I try to keep a steady amount of nutrients in the water and in the diet for my fish. I like to grow them large, round and beautiful, not just one or two but all of them. ;)
Take care Bill,
Eddie
Bgroovy2
07-09-2009, 01:23 AM
I never said that I don't do WC's, I do alot of them, i just test my water perameters first. I comes out to a WC every other day. Then at the end of the week, I double my regular water change as well as completely wipe down the whole tank and clean out the bottom and filters and decorations. Please don't read something into the post that isn't there. My only question is, do you have and actual goal for your WC's or is it just braging rights! I live in a small house so this is all the tank that I can do at this time. As far as angels with discus, there is no mysterious disease that angles carry, it's an urban legend. I will probobly add another disc and maybe even get rid of the angles to reduce bio load. I have an amazonian bio-top that works quite well, and has for quite some time.
Bgroovy2
07-09-2009, 01:26 AM
Eddie, that's all I was asking, your raising juvies, so ya, you have to do massive water changes to clean up the mess form all the food you have to feed them to get them to proper adult size, no issues with that, thanks:)
Eddie
07-09-2009, 04:22 AM
Eddie, that's all I was asking, your raising juvies, so ya, you have to do massive water changes to clean up the mess form all the food you have to feed them to get them to proper adult size, no issues with that, thanks:)
Not only juvies Bill, I have more sub adult discus than juvies and they get equally the same amount of water changes. ;)
Eddie
Roxanne
07-09-2009, 08:02 AM
...osmoregulation....quoting Thomas Giovanetti...."...because the body fluids of fresh water fish contain more salt than their habitat waters, freshwater constantly seeps through the skin and gills of freshwater fish and dilutes their body fluids...for this reason, freshwater fish drink very little water but excrete large amounts of water...the osmotic balance between fish and water is therefore at least partially dependant on the consistancy of the salt concentration in the surrounding water...drastic changes in the salt content of aquarium water are capable of causing osmotic shock...
..freshwater constantly seeps through the skin and gills of freshwater fish and dilutes their body fluids..hmm..sounds like good reason for fresh water changes to me;)....though with his reference to drastic changes in salination causing shock, I wonder if this is one reason people lose fish after a water change sometimes...if we are putting salt in our tanks and they get used to it, then we do a water change with no salt and alter the balance...I just wonder...
Rox
Scribbles
07-09-2009, 09:43 AM
Good point Rox.
Chris
wgtaylor
07-09-2009, 11:26 AM
HI Bill,
Discus have thrived in Amazon waters for thousands of years which have a conductivity of 10 to 30 microseimens.
This water has no salts and almost zero minerals and has a ph of 4.0 to 7.0.
It would be difficult to match that constant water quality in our aquariums so we all do the best we can with the water
we have available and the time to maintain our tanks.
Water changes keep the parasite level low, nitrates low, tds low, ph stable and replenishes oxygen. If you see your discus don't look their
best give them large water changes and see how they improve. Perfect discus water is Amazon water, anything else is just
one more persons justification of their tolerance for less than perfect water.
I'm sure we all do the best we can with the water we have available to us.
I would move the snail to another tank also, it is a secondary host for additional types of parasites.
Bill
Chad Hughes
07-09-2009, 02:08 PM
Bill,
I agree with the core of what you are saying. Clean water menas low waste and parasite levels. that makes complete sense!
Matching an amazon biotope and water parameters is what I really don't agree with so much. Yes, discus are found in those areas and if you are raising wilds that were shipped from the amazon, I would be on board 100%. The fact is that the discus that we raise today from commercial sources don't know what the amazon is. They do best in the water that they were born and raised in. That has been my expereince so far.
I actually use snails as my secret weapon in keeping waste out of a tank, especially food waste. They cling to and devour the tiniest pieces of food. Very effective cleanup! You MUST have snails from a clean source. That is the trick IMO!
Truth be told, there are many ways to raise healthy, happy discus! Your way seems to be working nicely! ;)
Best wishes!
Bgroovy2
07-09-2009, 03:02 PM
Chad
thank you for a little common sense! There still seems to be a lot of vooDoo in the discus hobby. The trend with a lot of breeders these days is to use the water at whatever the natural PH is, they say the fish seem to adjust well. The only time that they drasticly lower ph is when they hope to induce breeding. As long as your tank paramaters are stable and the tank kept clean with small, frequent wc's, there should be few issues.
In my reading experiance, most of the long time experts will say to shy away for extreamly large WC's, like 100%. Even Jack doesn't advocate anything over 25% unless your dealing with an over stocked juvie tank! Big wc's are a great stress when you leave your fish flopping on the deck. Why would you then wonder why they have stress related illness? I am by no means one of these said experts, but I have been keeping discus for about 8 years now and have had pretty good success.
Roxanne
07-09-2009, 03:30 PM
Well Bill, firstly, that should tell you discus can do well in different circumstances. Your way has been successful with your methods, so has a lot of other people with their own methods...tells me there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Secondly, a 100% water change does not necessarily mean the fish are "flopping on the deck"....if you follow say the Andrew Soh method, it is from my fuzzy memory, 2 or three water changes that creates the 100% water change.
What voodoo do you refer to BTW?
Rox
Chad Hughes
07-09-2009, 03:43 PM
Chad
thank you for a little common sense! There still seems to be a lot of vooDoo in the discus hobby. The trend with a lot of breeders these days is to use the water at whatever the natural PH is, they say the fish seem to adjust well. The only time that they drasticly lower ph is when they hope to induce breeding. As long as your tank paramaters are stable and the tank kept clean with small, frequent wc's, there should be few issues.
In my reading experiance, most of the long time experts will say to shy away for extreamly large WC's, like 100%. Even Jack doesn't advocate anything over 25% unless your dealing with an over stocked juvie tank! Big wc's are a great stress when you leave your fish flopping on the deck. Why would you then wonder why they have stress related illness? I am by no means one of these said experts, but I have been keeping discus for about 8 years now and have had pretty good success.
Bill,
Well said! As you well know I am not an advocate of huge frequent water changes either. Like you said, unless youhave an overstocked situation, it just shouldn't be necessary. There are just so many ways that work and little to say that one works better than another. I say use what works! ;)
Chad Hughes
07-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Secondly, a 100% water change does not necessarily mean the fish are "flopping on the deck"....if you follow say the Andrew Soh method, it is from my fuzzy memory, 2 or three water changes that creates the 100% water change.
What voodoo do you refer to BTW?
Rox
Actually for some, this is exactly what it means.
Roxanne
07-09-2009, 04:12 PM
Perhaps a difference in definition of terms here??....If I say to you the Japanese breeders do 300% water change per day, this doesn't mean they let their fish flop with no water 3 times per day...
....Who would let their fish flop around with no water? :confused:...
Roxanne
Chad Hughes
07-09-2009, 04:15 PM
Perhaps a difference in definition of terms here??....If I say to you the Japanese breeders do 300% water change per day, this doesn't mean they let their fish flop with no water 3 times per day...
....Who would let their fish flop around with no water? :confused:...
Roxanne
I am on your side on this one! I've seen pictures of water changes of 100% where the fish are literally lying on wet glass. It looks a bit cruel IMO but some swear by it!
Best wishes!
Roxanne
07-09-2009, 04:36 PM
I never said that I don't do WC's, I do alot of them, ... My only question is, do you have and actual goal for your WC's or is it just braging rights! ... ...
....?? obviously everyone has their own goals....bragging rights could be considered a goal...
.. As far as angels with discus, there is no mysterious disease that angles carry, it's an urban legend. ...
no myth if you do enough reading....angelfish and corydoras "...frequently carry internal parasitic diseases to which discus seem especially prone..." Thomas Giovanetti..he has had your eight years plus all the rest of us put together...
Roxanne
Roxanne
07-09-2009, 04:39 PM
.Funny to me when people want to slam methods to discus keeping, yet want to suck the info about what meds to use on them, information that comes form the same source as all the other "voodoo"
Rox
wgtaylor
07-09-2009, 05:24 PM
Bill,
I agree with the core of what you are saying. Clean water menas low waste and parasite levels. that makes complete sense!
Matching an amazon biotope and water parameters is what I really don't agree with so much. Yes, discus are found in those areas and if you are raising wilds that were shipped from the amazon, I would be on board 100%. The fact is that the discus that we raise today from commercial sources don't know what the amazon is. They do best in the water that they were born and raised in. That has been my expereince so far.
I actually use snails as my secret weapon in keeping waste out of a tank, especially food waste. They cling to and devour the tiniest pieces of food. Very effective cleanup! You MUST have snails from a clean source. That is the trick IMO!
Truth be told, there are many ways to raise healthy, happy discus! Your way seems to be working nicely! ;)
Best wishes!
You are correct some domestic discus are not raised in Amazon pure water however to get domestic discus to breed more successfully you have to use ro water to more mimic the water that they have evolved in for thousands of years. So it is not fair to say they were not born in Amazon water only that they can be grown in harder water. That tells me that if they had their choice they would prefer softer water.
As far as snails in discus tanks I was not referring to getting dirty or clean snails just the fact that there are different types of parasites some with simple life cycles that lay eggs and return back to the discus as a host. Then there are parasites that have a complex life cycle that require a second host (snail) to complete their life cycle. Without the snail they cannot complete their life cycle and cannot survive in our tanks.
Therefore usually people that keep discus recommend against keeping snails in their tanks.
Anyone that have read my posts know I don't take the water level below the discus top fin but I leave the syphon in while adding new water and can change one hundred percent or more without laying the fish on their sides.
Discus are really pretty hearty fish and will survive most compromises that are forced on them.
I have never told anyone their way raising discus is wrong, I am answering good questions with proof positive answers.
I'm not saying this is the only way or the best way but it has been working well for fifty years. No BS and no voodo, just very simple method.
I believe I was told my discus might become listless and die in my soft water that I am raising them. Absolutely just not true.
Yes we all make our choices and one thing we have in common is a love for these beautiful fish.
Bill
Eddie
07-09-2009, 08:23 PM
Can somebody say...........Beating a dead Horse, LOL.
Eddie
Chad Hughes
07-09-2009, 09:46 PM
LOL! I can! This topic is on some sort of diabolical cycle. LOL!
Roxanne
07-10-2009, 12:29 AM
:D:smash::rolleyes2::D
Eddie
07-10-2009, 05:25 AM
Even BETTER!
Don Trinko
07-10-2009, 08:32 AM
There have got to be at least 50 or 60 long... threads abought WC. At fist we are all trying to help someone new with our opinion but eventualy it ends up a Pi......ing contest. So.. yes, I will kick the dead horse while you beat it.
Don T.
Eddie
07-10-2009, 10:04 AM
There have got to be at least 50 or 60 long... threads abought WC. At fist we are all trying to help someone new with our opinion but eventualy it ends up a Pi......ing contest. So.. yes, I will kick the dead horse while you beat it.
Don T.
ROTFLMAO, so funny Don. I know, and its always us in the middle of it. :)
Eddie
Don Trinko
07-10-2009, 12:39 PM
Eddie; I think that if three of us were discussing Discus you and I would probably agree that the third guy was wrong.
I have learned a lot on this forum. I am thankful that it exists. I would probably either given up of gone thru as lot of dead discus by now.
Don T.
Ardan
07-10-2009, 06:04 PM
everyone can voice an opinion and do things their own way.
Please keep the comments civil
Ardan
Chad Hughes
07-10-2009, 08:57 PM
I just don't have a fondness for gold fish! LOL! :p
Roxanne
07-10-2009, 10:19 PM
lol...I stopped giving a crap about boogly face goldfish when I saw a discus for the first time:)...
I kept goldfish for yeeeears because, mainly, they would not DIE!!! Biological filter??Nitrogen Cycle?? What's that?.....I didn't clean the tank unless I couldn't see them, they never had a filter, except a little tiny thing I left in there to move the water around, no media, extreme ph and temp fluctuations cos I thought they were "cold", overfed to the extreme, big fat healthy looking fish that lived to be something rediculous like 8 years and NEVER were EVER medicated..even my later cichlids were "neglected" compared to how I treat my discus..try doing THAT with a discus!
I rest my case.:)
Rox
Chad Hughes
07-10-2009, 10:27 PM
Rox,
I get your point. Maybe a bit extreme, but point well stated. LOL! :p
Best wishes!
Scribbles
07-10-2009, 11:33 PM
LOL...The only way I was ever able to keep my Orandas alive was with massive frequent wc. They were way harder for me to keep than discus. LOL
Chris
Eddie
07-10-2009, 11:35 PM
I think when I retire, I am gonna be a plumber! LOL
No but seriously, I love knowing that my fish are doing well in the fresh/re-mineralized water. ;)
Eddie
rickscics
07-11-2009, 08:21 PM
Wow, I just finished reading all nine pages of these threads and I don't know what to think. Think I will take the dog's for a walk!:)
Eddie
07-11-2009, 09:06 PM
Wow, I just finished reading all nine pages of these threads and I don't know what to think. Think I will take the dog's for a walk!:)
LOL, trust me....sometimes these threads go that direction. You'll come figure out what is, or is not true by your own experience. Hopefully there is some bit of good information to take from this thread but as with anything, you'll have to decipher what it is you want to take from it.
Take care,
Eddie
Roxanne
07-11-2009, 09:35 PM
..Hopefully there is some bit of good information to take from this thread..
Eddie
...can you highlight it cos I can't find it:D...
Rox
Eddie
07-11-2009, 09:57 PM
...can you highlight it cos I can't find it:D...
Rox
Here you go Rox, it was in post #17....:D
size of tank, stocking levels, age of fish, foods you feed, how often you feed, water chemistry and filtration.
Eddie
DiscusOnly
07-11-2009, 10:00 PM
It's funny that someone who does a lot of WC doing it for bragging rights while people who don't do WC is doing it for the same reason.
It's simple. Do what you are comfortable with cause it's your discus and everyone's situation is different. If what you are doing is working for you and you are happy with the result.. continue doing so. There is no confusion, just a lot of different opinions.
Eddie
07-11-2009, 10:49 PM
It's funny that someone who does a lot of WC doing it for bragging rights while people who don't do WC is doing it for the same reason.
It's simple. Do what you are comfortable with cause it's your discus and everyone's situation is different. If what you are doing is working for you and you are happy with the result.. continue doing so. There is no confusion, just a lot of different opinions.
That is so true Van, one way or another, we are all doing it right because we all have success in our goals. Good point!
Eddie
Don Trinko
07-12-2009, 09:55 AM
Everyone agrees that you need clean water. Whatever proccedure you use it will be obvious in 6 months if it is working.
If you start with healthy fish and they are sick all the time you are doing something wrong. If your fish are healthy and have grown a lot in 6 months most of what you are doing is correct.
IMO; The secret is to be willing to change things that are not working. and to be able to recognize and admit that they are not working Don T.
jerbear
07-12-2009, 10:25 AM
.
IMO; The secret is to be willing to change things that are not working. and to be able to recognize and admit that they are not working Don T.
Well said Don!!!.. Seems like a lesson that I must learn over and over again:smash:.. At times I can be so stubborn.. My greatest enemies are thinking that I know it all and my unwillingness to keep an open mind so I can learn from others.
Jhhnn
07-12-2009, 11:09 AM
Setting aside the whole plop and drop issue, I think there's a lot to be learned from this thread.
Even people who employ rather elaborate systems to reduce water change frequency and volume agree that they're necessary.
Nobody has offered that larger/ more frequent changes are harmful, provided they're consistent and that large sudden swings in water parameters are avoided.
Some people have issues w/ dissolved gasses in their water supply and need to take appropriate measures.
Stocking and feeding levels are a huge consideration. If you don't want to change much water or invest in the kind of systems that reduce the need for water changes, then lower levels are highly advisable. There are caveats within that, particularly wrt growing out young fish.
Things not really discussed very well include the necessity of dealing with different kinds of tanks in different locations in the house and for different levels of involvement in discus keeping. If you have a utilitarian fish room with a concrete floor and floor drain, then you don't need to take the same precautions wrt water handling required for an ornamental tank in a carpeted livingroom...
The other thing not really addressed very well is the desirability of making water changes easier. It's all too easy to engage in simulated rationality, to find "reasons" allowing us to avoid water changes if they're a gigantic PITA. People deal with it in a variety of ways, but those who're geared for long term success find ways that land in their personal comfort zone and physical environment.
Finally, I think it's important to account for the unexpected in our lives, particularly when dealing with the welfare of other living creatures in our care. We need to establish a safety margin, a cushion we can rely upon when things don't go as planned. Fish are particularly vulnerable- it's not like my cats, they can't run off to find another home...
I know people who live right at the edge of their finances, some of them living rather large, too. When the day comes that something goes wrong significantly, they're left scrambling to get out of a hole where the walls are collapsing...
The same thing happens with aquaria- just a quick rundown of craigslist shows us a sample of how many unsuccessful fishkeepers there are... Going out to look at some of the aquaria for sale reveals that a lot of otherwise seemingly intelligent people have killed their fish for years and never figured out why...
Lemme put it this way... there's no payday loan place to cover you when your fish have been poisoned by bad water...
Roxanne
07-12-2009, 11:34 AM
..
A loaded question???? Inuendo????
.
...as you say, it's all been answered before....so why ask?...no one ever said do them across the board....
....Mods I hope you can see both the humor and of course the relevancy of my comments.
..if it was either, maybe they would...
....Honestly - I can count with a few fingers what I have learned from this forum about Discus....
..that's more than any of us have learned from you...
Roxanne
wgtaylor
07-12-2009, 02:15 PM
Well there really has been a lot of pertinent good information from everyone in this thread regarding water quality. Really :D
It does take a certain amount of work and dedication to maintain water that discus will be happy in for long durations.
Like the title of the thread, water quality = confusion, it does take a while to finally find what discus really require and the easiest way for you to consistently provide it to them.
Tito, you started this thread and I really truly hope you were able to gather some useful information from the many different ways we
all have maintained water quality for our discus.
I can see you recently have been having problems with your fish, we have all had those times. We learn from those problems and as time
passes those problems become less and less. I hope with some of the info on this thread you are able to work through your water issues
that will keep your wild discus healthy. The wilds may look plain to you right now but when they mature I'm sure they will be very impressive.
They just happen to be one of my favorite discus.
I can sense you have gotten pretty frustrated, don't give up.
Take care, enjoy the hobby, :)
Bill
Scribbles
07-12-2009, 02:31 PM
Honestly - I can count with a few fingers what I have learned from this forum about Discus. Perhaps I'm an advanced hobbyist I don't know - like who cares. Let's see I learned about Manzanita driftwood and I learned that Discus relish ON Prime Reef. LOL Hey that's something right?
Too bad you didn't learn about QT. You know what they say "You can lead a horse to water but..." There is quite a bit to be learned if you have an open mind.
No one has ever stated that you HAVE to do wc at a certain volume or frequency just that it has to be done. The frequency/volume changed depends on many factors such as nitrites, amonia, nitrates, stocking levels, frequency of feeding, types of foods fed, filtration etc...etc... which can all be learned on this forum. There are many ways to maintain an aquarium. Do what works for you and keeps your fish healthy.
One of the nice things about discus, as with most anything in life, is that there is always more to learn and we will never learn it all.
Chris
wgtaylor
07-12-2009, 02:46 PM
One of the nice things about discus, as with most anything in life, is that there is always more to learn and we will never learn it all.
Chris
Boy isn't that the truth Chris, we don't make mistakes, we learn. When we have the same problem three times in a row, well that's a mistake. :D
And learn how to enjoy it while you are learning it. :)
plecocicho
07-12-2009, 03:31 PM
One perspective from the different point of wiev:
If you have a biological filter AND do 100 % wc every day, you have:
a) considerably overstocked tank
b) biological filter, which is not functioning at all
c) are overfeeding your discus.
Jhhnn
07-12-2009, 08:25 PM
One perspective from the different point of wiev:
If you have a biological filter AND do 100 % wc every day, you have:
a) considerably overstocked tank
b) biological filter, which is not functioning at all
c) are overfeeding your discus.
Heh. Right back at it.
a) not necessarily. If such huge water changes are really necessary, rather than desirable in a given circumstance for the person performing them, you'd be right.
b)biofilter still works, just not as hard. it would, I suspect, take longer to establish.
c) overfeeding refers to the tank, to the biofilter, rather than to the fish themselves, particularly larger juvies. they'll eat, and need, very large quantities of food to obtain full growth. huge water changes help the biofilter carry the load.
Asian breeders have proven that it's impossible to change too much water. If Eddie, for example, wants to change as much water as he does, it's OK by me- it won't hurt the fish. People seeking to find what's useful at the other end of the spectrum have to expect some errors in their trial and error methodology... and to accept the consequences.
I'm somewhere in the middle, trending in Eddie's direction. Water is cheap where I live, and I've set it up to make water ageing and changes easy. I'm working on making them even easier, because it's something I plan to do for the forseeable future. It lets me feed my greedy piggies a lot of food so they'll grow quickly and (hopefully) quite large while having a strong safety margin wrt water quality. If somebody would care to point out how that's wrong, I'm listening...
Eddie
07-12-2009, 08:41 PM
Wow, just when this thing was at a close. LOL
I think people will learn what they want to learn. I have never seen anybody state that anybody HAD to do anything.
Take care all!
Eddie
brewmaster15
07-15-2009, 10:15 AM
Hi all,
I'd like to start here by saying thank you to those of you that participated in this thread with good intentions and provided good discussions even when you didn't see eye to eye on the issues.
Some of you may have noted this thread was removed for a few days....It was moved to the moderator section for review when it went south and some members got into it on a personal and nasty level...
I was away when it happened on a short vacation...I've since gone through my pms, emails, and this thread and removed several posts.If you wade thru the Bs.. theres some good dialogue here so I'm putting this back in the public board with this warning...
Keep it civil !!! Disagree if you feel that you need to....but do not take it to a personal level. Do not sling mud at each other and do not attack others... It will get you banned. Period. This forum's administration will not tolerate any more BS of this nature.
I personally don't get what the core issue here.... its always been the probelm in the discus community that topics like WCs get heated.... You can't make a claim that X amount of water change is optimum...Its different for every tank ..depends on so many variables...
stocking levels,tank volumes,planted or not, foods fed,filtration, water parameters like pH, ages of fish, numbers of feedings, etc..etc....
What you can do is start at X amount of water changes that you feel you can do.....try a little more and see how the fish act, monitor what ever parameters you hold dear, maybe try a little less....do the same. In time you'll find what works best.
I have over 2500 gallons here.. spread out among 30gals, 55gal,75 gal and 125 gals... Each tank is different...and I treat them all different.. Some get 100% daily..those are my fry tanks, some get 30% everyother....those are usually my breeders, my planted tank gets weekly, my grows-outs all vary. I use hydros and aquaclears...my water is tap water from a well...pH 7.2-7.6
I will always advise someone new to discus to change as much water as they can using water thats the same parameters...You need a starting point....then you can decrease or increase water changes and find the sweet spot for your particular tank...by that I mean find what works best for your tank... Its not science, though science is there if anyone wants to plot their water parameters daily and research aquaculture papers... It doesn't have to be hardcore science...it does have to be hardcore experience though... People have to try things out for themselves..
Some here can do 100% daily without aging the water..I do that and I'll kill discus....I used to be able to do it...then I moved from city water to well water with a ton of dissolved gasses in the water...initially I tried keeping things as I had done at my old house...resulted in stressed fish and dead fish...so I modified things...tried aging and now I can do 100% water changes..but it needs to be aged....unfortunately, being on a well..limits me...so again I experimented and found what works best...FOR ME.
Hope that helps someone and I seriously hope this thread needs no further moderation.
Thanks,
al
Jhhnn
07-15-2009, 08:17 PM
From Al-
I will always advise someone new to discus to change as much water as they can using water thats the same parameters...You need a starting point....then you can decrease or increase water changes and find the sweet spot for your particular tank...by that I mean find what works best for your tank...
Agreed, particularly wrt the first part. Better safe than sorry, particularly in the beginning.
Even though my experience level is a lot less, I think it's important to encourage newcomers to create a water changing system that they can live with, that they'll actually use, that's relatively easy and painless. Go the little bit extra that it takes before you even have discus, so as to increase the chances of success... It's a no-regret kind of deal...
Disgirl
07-15-2009, 08:47 PM
I tried to keep discus about 20 yrs. ago. A pair even spawned and gave me about 20 babies to sell. BUT they were all stunted, parents and young. Even though they were in a BB tank I only changed water once or twice a week, maybe 25% at a time. I thought a 4" discus was fully grown:D! But now that I am keeping them again and learning here I do 50% wc a day and WOW what a difference. No comparison at all. My discus from 20 yrs. ago were Wattley Turqs,beautiful but stunted, which I did not know. I am now a believer in those big and often wc's for young discus, plus a BB tank and high quality foods, fed often and with a higher temp of 86-88. Now I know the difference.
Barb:)
Don Trinko
07-22-2009, 09:48 AM
I think Al hit on it. Someone who is raising fry will think that changing 50% twice a week will not work and they are correct. Someone who has a large tank with adult discus will think that 100% ever day is excesive and they are correct.
We need to be able to change our methods if they do not work. I change 50% twice a week. All my fish are at least 2 years old and some are spawning in my comunity tank. If I ever decide to raise fry I can assure you I will be changing a lot more water! All IMO; Don T.
DiscusOnly
07-22-2009, 09:54 AM
I personally don't get what the core issue here.... its always been the probelm in the discus community that topics like WCs get heated.... You can't make a claim that X amount of water change is optimum...Its different for every tank ..depends on so many variables...
stocking levels,tank volumes,planted or not, foods fed,filtration, water parameters like pH, ages of fish, numbers of feedings, etc..etc....
What you can do is start at X amount of water changes that you feel you can do.....try a little more and see how the fish act, monitor what ever parameters you hold dear, maybe try a little less....do the same. In time you'll find what works best.
I have over 2500 gallons here.. spread out among 30gals, 55gal,75 gal and 125 gals... Each tank is different...and I treat them all different.. Some get 100% daily..those are my fry tanks, some get 30% everyother....those are usually my breeders, my planted tank gets weekly, my grows-outs all vary. I use hydros and aquaclears...my water is tap water from a well...pH 7.2-7.6
I will always advise someone new to discus to change as much water as they can using water thats the same parameters...You need a starting point....then you can decrease or increase water changes and find the sweet spot for your particular tank...by that I mean find what works best for your tank... Its not science, though science is there if anyone wants to plot their water parameters daily and research aquaculture papers... It doesn't have to be hardcore science...it does have to be hardcore experience though... People have to try things out for themselves..
Some here can do 100% daily without aging the water..I do that and I'll kill discus....I used to be able to do it...then I moved from city water to well water with a ton of dissolved gasses in the water...initially I tried keeping things as I had done at my old house...resulted in stressed fish and dead fish...so I modified things...tried aging and now I can do 100% water changes..but it needs to be aged....unfortunately, being on a well..limits me...so again I experimented and found what works best...FOR ME.
This should be on a sticky that folks can refer to regarding WC.
Eddie
07-22-2009, 09:56 AM
I agree!
Eddie
David Rose
07-22-2009, 11:14 AM
Thanks Al for your great post and all those that have contributed to discussing their individual issues . I continue to be amazed at the great folks on the SD forum that are experienced and willing to take their valuble time to help.
I have picked up some great information and will make the best of it. It's very much appreciated!
Regards,
David
Cooldadddyfunk286
07-22-2009, 05:37 PM
well said Al, I just want some eggs already!!! :p ...I really cant wait for my first spawn...im gonna throw a party, and your all invited :D:D ...sorry to get off topic. but what is true, is that everyone needs to find what works for you...these days some of us are so busy with our lives its tuff to change as much water as we would like. what i REALLY need to do is clean my canisters!!! talk about water quality.:o
Thank you evrybody for participating in this thread. Yes I did come way with something useful and helpful. I have not changed my water change regiment. 125 Gallon Tank with substrate and manzanita wood some grass and valisneria. Water change comes from tap at 6.8 pH drops to 6.4 pH because of the wood. Water is changed 50% every third day. Young adults all 4" plus but two fish which I think I can now safely say are stunted. These two fish were very reclusive, very picky eaters and when they eat they eat very little food. I believe their behaviour is what stunted them ( they were like this since day one) Many of the fish relished worms but I am allergic and removed them from the diet - this may have caused the other two to slow in eating but say la vie). The rest of my fish are growing and developing wonderfully. Two pairs have formed - not that I wanted them to but nature dictates. One show tank so I don't have the luxury of seperating males from females. One pair has already produced wigglers. At least I know I can breed if I opt to.
Thank you Al for the personal attention.
Great thread hope newbies learn something from it. The thread was from the outset written with newbies in mind and the inpact certain water change statements can have on someone who wants to try out Discus for the first time. Not necesarilly fish for the first time but Discus for the first time. I can say that as an experienced hobbyist in salt water, africans, community, Sa and CA's (not Discus) reading up in a Discus Forum can be confusing since many of the practices and the extremes of them are not applied to other types of fish keeping. But I can only guess that it works though I have my doubts and suspicions.
To all newbies take everything with a grain of salt and monitor your fish and tank just like Al said - every tank is different.
snoopy65
07-23-2009, 10:24 AM
Being a complete newbie to discus, I can't really comment on what discus need, but I have kept different species of tropical fish for years and this is my take. When ever I set up a new tank, I monitor it's water params daily. If the nitrates move up or ph moves down, I do a water change. If they don't, I wait until the next day and check again, and do a water change when my nitrates hit 10 or my ph changes. I write down the dates of the water changes for 2 months. After that, I can pretty much tell when a water change is needed on any particular tank. My tank that has only tetras and pygmy cories in it-needs a change once every 2 weeks. My CA/ Madagascar Tank every 3 days, My Bridgesii Snail tank, every other day, My Marble Convict tank depends on if there are fry or not. Each tank is different because of the bioload of the inhabitants. So now that I have my discus, while they are small, daily. Once they are bigger, I will do the same for their tank as I do for my others. The idea is that they should be able to live in a clean living space. If that means you have to do water changes daily or weekly or anything else, then that is what you need to do.
Don Trinko
07-23-2009, 12:58 PM
snoopy65; IMO; I think you have the correct idea. (different fish/situations require different wc) One important consideration is that discus do need cleaner water that most tropicals. Better to many wc than to few as long as the wc water is similar to tank water.
I'm certainly no expert but one thing I would suggest to anyone wanting to keep discus is to plan ahead for more WC than you think you need.
I had Angels for years with only occasioal wc and had no problems. You might assume that since discus and angels are in the same family that this would work for discus. It will not. All IMO; Don T.
Jhhnn
07-23-2009, 11:14 PM
I'm certainly no expert but one thing I would suggest to anyone wanting to keep discus is to plan ahead for more WC than you think you need.
Absolutely. Invest in the equipment required to make WC as painless as possible. Do it before the fish arrive.
Properly cared for, Discus will live for many years. If you amortize the cost of water changing equipment and water over the life of the fish, it's really pretty cheap to do it well. Some people, like Avionics, take it in a different direction, simply because they pay a lot for water. The investment in the equipment and electricity to do so is every bit as large as that for changing water, actually moreso for most of us.
Nobody said it would be cheap. we pay one way or another- for water and the means to change it, for more advanced filtration and lighting systems, of for more fish to replace the ones that died...
Just one old guy's POV...
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