Obesity dangerous?

[Daniella]

Some of my fish are getting fat, I mean obese, especialy the adults. Is it dangerous for the fish? I am going in vacations for 8 days and will not feed them for about 7 days so I thought it would be good if they has a little extra fat but how much is safe? I feed them 3 times a day, beefheart with frozen bloodworms 2 times and one time live white worms. I have young 3" discus with the adults and those are not too fat, just right, why I feed 3 times a day, but I cannot stop the adults from feasting as well.

And what can happen if the fish are too fat?

Also when I resume feeding, I am guessing it will be slowly but how much slow is good? is it better just one small meal the first day or many very small meal for few days?

Thanks.

[ShinShin]

Good question. Yes, discus can become fat, and health problems, including death, can occur. I am reading about all this "power feeding" people are doing who have no idea about fish nutrition, and am just waiting for the comments about dead fish to be posted. Wattley feeds his adults once daily, skipping one day a week. Yeng addresses this issue in his 2nd book, too, about overfeeding young discus and some of the ramifications from it.
Mat

[Peachtree Discus]

even i wonder about the long term effects of overfeeding fish. especially with these huge discus that will not breed. logically, anything that eats too much without adequate exercise should have health issues. i have not seen too much discussion on discus fat content.

are you sure the fish are not bloated? are they overeating to the point that their bellies swell? the adults can easily bully the smaller discus and horde the food. you may want to put a separator so u can feed the smaller vs adults differently.

once you return from vacation i don't see any reason to start slow with feedings. i would just go back to your regular feeding routine. It will also be a great time to introduce new foods....maybe flakes. on a separate note,

[William Palumbo]

I think as a whole, we really know nothing about the dietary requirements of Discus. We just know what "works" for us. We assume if they grow large and fast...and eventually breed...we fed them correctly. And I guess in the long run, that's all that matters. I am not sure if I can honestly say I ever saw a "fat" fish. I've seen HUGE ones, but that does not eaqual fat. I am not saying tho, that they don't exisist, or that they can't get fat. Do they have "love handles" or double "chins"? Where does the fat accumilate? I would think that if a fish is overfed, it will just produce more waste, expelling what it does not need. Can someone post a pic of a "fat" Discus?. I am curious what it should look like...Bill

[rbarn]

Yeah, I dont think fish store extra energy as fat reserves the
way mammals do.

I dont think a fish can get "fat" the way we think of in being "overweight"

Fish just keep growing and growing and growing.

[Peachtree Discus]

sometime back, i read that fish store fat in their liver. i was also told that you can find the fat on a flounder along the top (below the dorsal fin) and bottom (behind the pelvic fins). i dont' know if it's true and it was not a scientific discussion...it was at a buffet

[Chad Hughes]

OK, I'll throw my $.02 observations and opinions at this....

I believe that the power feeding methods are typically used by high volume breeders to get fry up to size for sale. This makes sense for the short amount of time that the fish will be in the breeders posession. Once they have achieve a saleable size, feeding certainly tapers off. Most breeders that I know feed 3" + discus only three times a day vice continuing with the massive 5 + daily feedings.

I take the same approach. When I have young fish that are developing, I like to feed about 5 times a day. I just don't have the means to do more. I have a job and responsibilities. LOL! I do ensure that the young ones get enough feedings to keep their bellies pleasantly plump throughout the day. After the first year I throttle back to 3 daily feedings plus skip a day here and there. I believe that it improves appetite doing things this way. The fish are always ready to eat, not fat and lazy.

I can't say that I have any fat discus, but I do have some large, very filled out discus!

Best wishes!

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Yeah, I dont think fish store extra energy as fat reserves the
way mammals do.

I dont think a fish can get "fat" the way we think of in being "overweight"

Fish just keep growing and growing and growing.


Fish can most definetly get fat they way any other animal can. Easiest way to see a fat discus is to look at it's double chin (in asia, you have to pay extra for that LOL). They will store fat in the liver, kidneys, body cavity (visceral fat), and head. The fat storage you see is due to being fed too "hot" of a diet. Fish can only use so much protein/fat...anything extra is excreted (protein) or stored (fat) much like us. This also places additional strain on the fishes body dealing with the excess nutrients.

I cringe everytime I see someone say they are power feeding their fish using an ultra high protein food, feeding 8x per day, etc....it's just not necessary. What will result will be fat fish, and/or fish with shortened life spans. Fish can only use so much protein and so much fat (again, just like us), anything else is a waste of money. Not only does powerfeeding have potential to create fat fish, but it will destroy the water quality as well. Any protein above what they need is excreted into the water directly as ammonia. So if you are feeding a super high protein food and dont keep up with water changes, you have the possibility to create an ammonia spike in the tank which could kill your fish.

Ideally, feeding 3x a day is best and spread the feedings out as far as possible. And when you feed, feed them to satiation....meaning till they are full.

Ok, thats my rant of the week. :argue:

-Ryan

[Scribbles]

I've never seen a fat discus. I would assume it to be unhealthy. Overfeeding would also destroy water quality from uneaten food and excess waste produced by the fish from consuming more nutrients than it needs. People always talk about the number of meals that they feed their discus. I think that it is more important to note the ammount fed. I feed my current juvies 10 times daily on average. However, I feed such small ammounts that the food is eaten in about 30 seconds. I assume that just like other animals that only a small ammount of nutrients can be absorbed at a time which is why I feed small frequent meals versus 3 feasts.

Chris

[mikel]

I also think it is important to distinguish feeding "frequently", and "overfeeding" to the point of pollution and detriment. I prefer to eat small meals, but often, like most doctors would advise. Likewise, the logic makes sense for discus as they also practice continuous foraging for small amount of food in the wild. I also agree that variety, and not going overboard with high protein food would also be better. In that spirit, Al's and Eddie's mix also have vegetable matter mixed into them, like peas and boiled spinach and spirulina flakes. I really like the Omega One super veggie flakes that I use to supplement Al's beef heart mix....and I give my fish equal helping of the two daily. mike

[Daniella]

The fish are not bloated. They do get a very plump belly after eating but that go away fast. They are just plump or chobby all over.

The adults don't bully the small ones to the point they cannot eat because I have a bare bottom tank and I put food in different places so everybody get their share. But since I have to feed 3 times a day for the young discus, the adults are getting fat as they eat at the same time.

I do not care for breeding at all, I just want healthy fish.

I tried flakes but only some of my fish eat them. I use Ocean discus flakes. I was thinking of using that with a distributor when away but I am too afraid that it would fool the water.




even i wonder about the long term effects of overfeeding fish. especially with these huge discus that will not breed. logically, anything that eats too much without adequate exercise should have health issues. i have not seen too much discussion on discus fat content.

are you sure the fish are not bloated? are they overeating to the point that their bellies swell? the adults can easily bully the smaller discus and horde the food. you may want to put a separator so u can feed the smaller vs adults differently.

once you return from vacation i don't see any reason to start slow with feedings. i would just go back to your regular feeding routine. It will also be a great time to introduce new foods....maybe flakes. on a separate note,

[Daniella]

There is not much pollution because I syphon before and after feeding. I remove all poop before feeding and after I remove any food left over.

I never let the food longer than 30 to 45 minutes. Each time I test there is no ammonia nor nitrites.

It's just that 2 of my adults are quite thick and I am not sure what is considered obese but they are probably on the edge of it.



I also think it is important to distinguish feeding "frequently", and "overfeeding" to the point of pollution and detriment. I prefer to eat small meals, but often, like most doctors would advise. Likewise, the logic makes sense for discus as they also practice continuous foraging for small amount of food in the wild. I also agree that variety, and not going overboard with high protein food would also be better. In that spirit, Al's and Eddie's mix also have vegetable matter mixed into them, like peas and boiled spinach and spirulina flakes. I really like the Omega One super veggie flakes that I use to supplement Al's beef heart mix....and I give my fish equal helping of the two daily. mike

[Eddie]

The fish are not bloated. They do get a very plump belly after eating but that go away fast. They are just plump or chobby all over.

The adults don't bully the small ones to the point they cannot eat because I have a bare bottom tank and I put food in different places so everybody get their share. But since I have to feed 3 times a day for the young discus, the adults are getting fat as they eat at the same time.

I do not care for breeding at all, I just want healthy fish.

I tried flakes but only some of my fish eat them. I use Ocean discus flakes. I was thinking of using that with a distributor when away but I am too afraid that it would fool the water.


Yeah...I'd have to see the pictures of the fat discus. Not that I don't believe you Daniella, just want to see how you are viewing the fish as fat.


As far as the feeding, and protein intake of fish...I'll stay out of that one. Aren't there a hundred ways to skin a cat.

Great comments by everyone though. ;)

Eddie

[Daniella]

that's what I do, I feed them 3 times a day, but getting them full is a challenge :) I think they have no bottom.



Ideally, feeding 3x a day is best and spread the feedings out as far as possible. And when you feed, feed them to satiation....meaning till they are full.

Ok, thats my rant of the week. :argue:

-Ryan

[Daniella]

I will have to take a pic. Not sure how this would be visible in pics though. Here is a pic of one of the fish about 5 weeks ago. You can see it's not skinny but now it,s just thicker more plump.

http://i.pbase.com/o2/84/9684/1/112874001.EEWj5wGW._MG_1264.jpg

And my eruption is also getting there. I can see a dip underneat the pectoral fins, like in the center of the body, as if there is more fat all over except in that area, so that's wierd.

Here is the eruption also taken 5 weeks ago, also thicker now:

http://k43.pbase.com/o2/84/9684/1/112874012.VsqXhA6D._MG_1286.jpg

I am not sure what is considered obese for a discus, so why I am asking.





Yeah...I'd have to see the pictures of the fat discus. Not that I don't believe you Daniella, just want to see how you are viewing the fish as fat.


As far as the feeding, and protein intake of fish...I'll stay out of that one. Aren't there a hundred ways to skin a cat.

Great comments by everyone though. ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

Couldn't see the first picture but the second looks fine. The fish looks to getting thick but that is a general part of their development. They grow out long and high and then they thicken up. Now I would say that it probably has grown out as much as it will and just getting wider. Do you know the actual age of the fish?

Thanks for the picture.

Eddie

[ShinShin]

The University of Malaysia has done research on discus nutrition, and are researching a man made substitute for parent discus slime. Discus has become Malaysia's #1 export, and as such, much research is being done to improve farming techniques.

As Ryan confirmed, yes, discus do get fat, as in obese.

Mat

[Daniella]

They are around 8 months to 9 months old. They come from a big farm in Malaysia where they occasionaly sell batch of adults. There were about 20 of the eruption at the importer as well as about the same amount of the tiger pigeon. All about the size. He had just received them 2 days ago. It was impressive to see all of them together in a 20 gallon each and I regret that I did not buy more as they are good sturdy fish.

here is the first pic again. Now the fish is thicker as this was taken 5 weeks ago.


http://i.pbase.com/o2/84/9684/1/112874001.EEWj5wGW._MG_1264.jpg



Couldn't see the first picture but the second looks fine. The fish looks to getting thick but that is a general part of their development. They grow out long and high and then they thicken up. Now I would say that it probably has grown out as much as it will and just getting wider. Do you know the actual age of the fish?


Thanks for the picture.

Eddie

[Daniella]

They surely have very gorgious fish and the pigeon don't have much peppering. At lest out of the 20 or so tiger PB that the importer had received, I could not spot much peppering. Shape were good and it was a very good quality of fish.

I can understand why they are well in demand.

It's amazing that with all the technology it is so complicated to replicate what nature does so easily.





The University of Malaysia has done research on discus nutrition, and are researching a man made substitute for parent discus slime. Discus has become Malaysia's #1 export, and as such, much research is being done to improve farming techniques.

As Ryan confirmed, yes, discus do get fat, as in obese.

Mat

[Eddie]

They are around 8 months to 9 months old. They come from a big farm in Malaysia where they occasionaly sell batch of adults. There were about 20 of the eruption at the importer as well as about the same amount of the tiger pigeon. All about the size. He had just received them 2 days ago. It was impressive to see all of them together in a 20 gallon each and I regret that I did not buy more as they are good sturdy fish.

here is the first pic again. Now the fish is thicker as this was taken 5 weeks ago.


http://i.pbase.com/o2/84/9684/1/112874001.EEWj5wGW._MG_1264.jpg

I still can't see the photo for some reason. Maybe it is on my end where the problem is. 8 to 9 months, that fish barely reaching adult but as mentioned, it probably has finished growing out and will keep getting thicker. It's not gonna fat, I don't even see the fish as fat now, just thick for its size. :o

Eddie

[Elite Aquaria]

Eddie, I can not see the pictures either...just the one...

[Eddie]

Eddie, I can not see the pictures either...just the one...

Thanks Dan, I wasn't sure since I was getting some forbidden message. :o

Eddie

[kaceyo]

I got the same mssg.

Kacey

[Daniella]

Ok that's cool so I will not worry if it is not fat.

Here is the pic from another link. Not sure why it's not working.

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/112874001/original

This is the fish that is the thicker now.


I still can't see the photo for some reason. Maybe it is on my end where the problem is. 8 to 9 months, that fish barely reaching adult but as mentioned, it probably has finished growing out and will keep getting thicker. It's not gonna fat, I don't even see the fish as fat now, just thick for its size. :o

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Daniella, I think your fish are beautiful and just look healthy, not fat at all.
Barbara:)

[Eddie]

Ok that's cool so I will not worry if it is not fat.

Here is the pic from another link. Not sure why it's not working.

http://www.pbase.com/zylen/image/112874001/original

This is the fish that is the thicker now.

Yeah, the link works now. That fish is not even close to what I would call obese. It still has plenty of thickening up to do.


Eddie

[Daniella]

Yes, that photo was taken 5 weeks ago, and now it's thicker.

Just how thick do they get?






It still has plenty of thickening up to do.


Eddie

[Eddie]

Check out the thickness of some of Bens discus in posts 78 and 79.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=68810&page=6

Its the natural growth of discus.

Your fish, as mentioned, probably won't get much larger and just thicken out so it may give the impression of being obese or fat.

I have seen some fish that are over an inch and a half of thickness in the forehead, that pretty thick.

Eddie

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

The University of Malaysia has done research on discus nutrition, and are researching a man made substitute for parent discus slime. Discus has become Malaysia's #1 export, and as such, much research is being done to improve farming techniques.

As Ryan confirmed, yes, discus do get fat, as in obese.

Mat


We will be evaluating and confirming those same studies from Malaysia (Chong) and from there will continue research a bit further...should be interesting. Our overall goal is to create an ideal pelleted or gelatin type based diet and to document actual weight gain to determine how efficient their feed to gain ratio is. From that we can adjust and make the foods better.

-Ryan

[kaceyo]

Ryan,
What are the chances that these pellets, once developed, would be available as is to the hobbiest?

Kacey

[Eddie]

Ryan,
What are the chances that these pellets, once developed, would be available as is to the hobbiest?

Kacey

Man, thats gonna blow for me, I don't feed pellets. :o

Eddie

[kaceyo]

Hey Eddie,
I use TetraBits, which is as close to a pellet as I've ever fed my fish. It shouldn't be too hard to get them onto them though, just introduce it slowly. And if that doesn't work, starve 'em.

Kacey

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Man, thats gonna blow for me, I don't feed pellets. :o

Eddie

Not sure if the final form will be in a pellet or gel-type form...depends on how palatability issues go. Maybe both forms, we'll wait and see.

-Ryan

[MSD]

Those fish are totally normal, what on earth are you talking about??

[Daniella]

Starve them? How long would you starve them if they don't accept pellets?


Hey Eddie,
I use TetraBits, which is as close to a pellet as I've ever fed my fish. It shouldn't be too hard to get them onto them though, just introduce it slowly. And if that doesn't work, starve 'em.

Kacey

[GrillMaster]

3-4 days without food then introduce them to the pellets first thing after lights on after day 3 or 4. :)

[Eddie]

Hey Eddie,
I use TetraBits, which is as close to a pellet as I've ever fed my fish. It shouldn't be too hard to get them onto them though, just introduce it slowly. And if that doesn't work, starve 'em.

Kacey

Yeah Kacey, I have 2 cans at home and a can of NLS Discus Formula. My fish don't pace themselves when they eat. If I dropped too many pellets in the tank, DEAD from explosion. Had to pull several out and Epsom salt them in a mad salt solution to save them. One fish will always eat more than another.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Don't you soak your pellets first so they don,t inflate in the discus stomach?

So far I only gave flakes and only a few of my discus eat them. They like beefheart, frozen bloodworms and white worms. that's pretty much it.




Yeah Kacey, I have 2 cans at home and a can of NLS Discus Formula. My fish don't pace themselves when they eat. If I dropped too many pellets in the tank, DEAD from explosion. Had to pull several out and Epsom salt them in a mad salt solution to save them. One fish will always eat more than another.

Eddie

[Eddie]

Don't you soak your pellets first so they don,t inflate in the discus stomach?

So far I only gave flakes and only a few of my discus eat them. They like beefheart, frozen bloodworms and white worms. that's pretty much it.

Yes Daniella, I soak the pellets first. I said that my fish over eat, some fish will eat more than the others. No matter how long you soak the food, they are gonna expand more in the belly.

Eddie

[seanyuki]

Hi Eddie,

I soaked the pellets in the special solution....you should know what I am talking about.....most of the pellets are eaten in 10 minutes.:)

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie,

I soaked the pellets in the special solution....you should know what I am talking about.....most of the pellets are eaten in 10 minutes.:)

Yeah, thats a whole other ball of worms. Only fed for a specific purpose. ;)

Eddie

[seanyuki]

Hi Eddie,

I ran out of FBW that is why I am using pellets now.;)





Yeah, thats a whole other ball of worms. Only fed for a specific purpose. ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie,

I ran out of FBW that is why I am using pellets now.;)

Ah....I am still using the pellets on the pair but it's for you know what purposes. A little experimentation. :D

Can't wait to get home and mess with my fish!!!!

Eddie

[kaceyo]

OK Eddie, I see how you are, lol! Conducting secret experiments behind closed doors? You have to be careful with that sort of thing. Did you ever see the movie "Snakehead"?
I never soak the TetraBits and have never had a problem with them. But I don't give them as much as they can eat either, at least not with TBits.

Kacey

[Daniella]

yes I was wondering what was that special ingredient in pellet? sounds like something really special, what is it?

I always let my fish eat as much as they want and then syphon the leftover if there is any. Is that a bad thing? that way I make sure all of them, even my shy white butter, get their fill.

That poor white butterfly has only started to eat after a month of nothing. it only eats white worms for now but at least it eats.




OK Eddie, I see how you are, lol! Conducting secret experiments behind closed doors? You have to be careful with that sort of thing. Did you ever see the movie "Snakehead"?
I never soak the TetraBits and have never had a problem with them. But I don't give them as much as they can eat either, at least not with TBits.

Kacey

[MSD]

Ask Moose and squirrel about the secret mixture. :D My fish only eat the Tetra color pellets but that OK because so many Asian breeders and others use them they have a long track record with discus.

[Roxanne]

Moose & Squirrel...cryptic for...Rocky & Bullwinkle???:D

"Chunky" isn't fat right?

Rox

[MSD]

Right.

[Eddie]

OK Eddie, I see how you are, lol! Conducting secret experiments behind closed doors? You have to be careful with that sort of thing. Did you ever see the movie "Snakehead"?
I never soak the TetraBits and have never had a problem with them. But I don't give them as much as they can eat either, at least not with TBits.

Kacey

No no no no.....Pro-More Kacey, Pro-More ;)

Eddie

[kaceyo]

Ahhhh! Pro-More. Well, the cats outa the bag now. I've been wanting to try that on my ALSS Pair for quite a while. She lays such small batches of eggs that there may not be enough to entice a pair into raising them.
Let us know what you come up with.

Kacey

[RD.]

I think as a whole, we really know nothing about the dietary requirements of Discus.

Actually we know quite a bit. The following link contains some valuable information that may come as a surprise to many discus keepers.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008


"This species feeds predominantly on algal periphyton, fine organic detritus, plant matter, and small aquatic invertebrates."


"The alimentary canal of Symphysodon is characterized by a poorly defined stomach and an elongate intestine, some 300 mm long and 3 mm wide (in a 180 mm SL specimen). This intestinal morphology is typical of a cichlid with a dominantly vegetarian, detritivorous, or omnivorous diet."

The scientific journal linked to above pretty much clears up the myth that discus are a highly carnivorous species that require massive amounts of protein for proper growth.

Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species.

I have no argument with those stats, and the same could be said for hundreds/thousands of ornamental species, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of the discus world to support their use of a high protein diet (such as beefheart) throughout the various life stages of the fish.

Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart, and those levels of protein/fat were for juvenile discus, not adults, or even semi adults.


In Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it also gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods.

IMHO the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, etc as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 20-30 yrs ago. Amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix. I don't think that you can come much closer to a discus fishes natural diet than that, and all of those ingredients can already be found in commercial foods.

If one feels the need to supplement their discus fishes diet, I would think that insects such as ants, spiders, etc would be far better suited to their digestive system, than foods such as beefheart.

Also, while all fish have to potential to become fat, unfortunately excess fat deposits (which typically are found surrounding some of the fishes internal organs, such as the liver, hence the term "fatty liver disease") aren't always visible to the naked eye until it is far too late. The study linked to below shows just how quickly this can take place, even in juvenile fish.
http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/A03-035.1

While that study did not specifically involve discus, it did involve cichlids and I think that it's fair to say that one could safely extrapolate the information gleaned from that study to discus. While a high protein, high fat diet may indeed bring on swift growth, over the long haul it can also eventually result in excess lipid deposition and necrosis of the liver, ultimately leading to premature death. In essence a discus that is fed a less than ideal diet and that dies at the ripe old age of 5-10 yrs, may have possibly reached 15-20 yrs (or longer) with a more properly balanced diet.

While it's also true that excess amino acids (protein) are simply excreted, there are various studies where it has been stated that if too much excess protein is supplied in a fishes diet, that due to the energy required to deaminate & excrete those excess amino acids, that one can actually experience a decrease in the growth of the fish. So not only can crude protein in excess of the fishes requirement lead to excess excretion of ammonia via the gills and excess nitrogen from the feces, it can also be counter productive to the growth of the fish.


HTH

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

IMHO the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, etc as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 20-30 yrs ago. Amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix. I don't think that you can come much closer to a discus fishes natural diet than that, and all of those ingredients can already be found in commercial foods.


Finding the exact amino acid requirements for discus is where the money is required. Unfortunetly there is very little money being invested into a relatively small fish market. We are currently working on developing a discus-specific diet where we will attempt to determine those finer points in discus nutrition (amino acids, etc). Until their exact needs are found, hobbyists should use a high quality pellet food and/or feed a varied diet.

Good post.

-Ryan

[frenchie100]

Actually we know quite a bit. The following link contains some valuable information that may come as a surprise to many discus keepers.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008





The scientific journal linked to above pretty much clears up the myth that discus are a highly carnivorous species that require massive amounts of protein for proper growth.

Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species.

I have no argument with those stats, and the same could be said for hundreds/thousands of ornamental species, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of the discus world to support their use of a high protein diet (such as beefheart) throughout the various life stages of the fish.

Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart, and those levels of protein/fat were for juvenile discus, not adults, or even semi adults.


In Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it also gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods.

IMHO the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, etc as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 20-30 yrs ago. Amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix. I don't think that you can come much closer to a discus fishes natural diet than that, and all of those ingredients can already be found in commercial foods.

If one feels the need to supplement their discus fishes diet, I would think that insects such as ants, spiders, etc would be far better suited to their digestive system, than foods such as beefheart.

Also, while all fish have to potential to become fat, unfortunately excess fat deposits (which typically are found surrounding some of the fishes internal organs, such as the liver, hence the term "fatty liver disease") aren't always visible to the naked eye until it is far too late. The study linked to below shows just how quickly this can take place, even in juvenile fish.
http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/A03-035.1

While that study did not specifically involve discus, it did involve cichlids and I think that it's fair to say that one could safely extrapolate the information gleaned from that study to discus. While a high protein, high fat diet may indeed bring on swift growth, over the long haul it can also eventually result in excess lipid deposition and necrosis of the liver, ultimately leading to premature death. In essence a discus that is fed a less than ideal diet and that dies at the ripe old age of 5-10 yrs, may have possibly reached 15-20 yrs (or longer) with a more properly balanced diet.

While it's also true that excess amino acids (protein) are simply excreted, there are various studies where it has been stated that if too much excess protein is supplied in a fishes diet, that due to the energy required to deaminate & excrete those excess amino acids, that one can actually experience a decrease in the growth of the fish. So not only can crude protein in excess of the fishes requirement lead to excess excretion of ammonia via the gills and excess nitrogen from the feces, it can also be counter productive to the growth of the fish.


HTH

Wow! Now THAT'S a good post! Thank you, very informative!

-Julie :)

[Eddie]

These are good points but my only concern is that the captive bred, hybrid fish we are raising, are not wild fish. Although we may want to mimic their diet in the wild which is sometimes, not much of anything at all, the captive bred fish we are keeping today may actually have different requirements. Just a thought

Eddie

[RD.]

Ryan,

I don't believe that there is such a thing as "exact amino acid requirements for discus".

With floodplain species of fish, that undergo extreme seasonal fluctuations, the fish are constantly adapting their diet to the local conditions. There is also natural variation in diet among the various populations and species of discus.

As previously stated, amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix can already be found in commercial foods. There is no need to wait for the holy grail of diets to arrive, one simply needs to seek out the better quality products that are currently available and feed accordingly.
IMO there are many people in this hobby that base their fishes nutritional needs on nothing more than what others have been doing/feeding for the past 30 yrs.

Eddie - whether a discus is wild caught, or thousands of generations removed from the wild, their basic nutritional requirements will be the same.

[RD.]

Sorry, but I'm not well versed on the dietary requirements of horses. lol

With fish I think we have to be far more concerned with their energy requirements, than finding the perfect diet. As far as diet goes, it seems quite apparent that a discus is fairly adaptable. Due to their higher metabolisms juvenile discus require higher energy foods, and need to be fed more often, than adults. I believe the same can be true when comparing many species of fish in the wild, vs. their tank raised counterparts which are kept in the restricted spaces of a glass cage. In most cases the latter will not require the same amount of energy to be supplied via their diet, due to less energy being expended in search of food, surviving predators, etc.

[ShinShin]

There was a study done at a university in China ~10 years ago. It was posted on the old Bufo forum by a person known as teddyJ, and anyone around then and on that forum knows how it burns my a$$ to have to use his post, that compared the growth rate of discus fry fed on 100% beefheart, versus a mix containing spinach. The was a significant difference in the size of the fry fed 100% beefheart which grew the largest of the two groups. This would make sense since at a young age the discus intestinal tract is very short for the body size.

Anyone who has feed trout pellets to fry knows that they will grow fast. That's no secret. However, these pellets contain too much fat for discus in the long term. Trout are commercially raised to grow fast for the table and stream stocking. Long term effects of this diet would lead to fat related diseases of adult fish. A discus would lose many years off its natural life on this high fat diet.

While Heiko's book does contain facts on discus diet, does it state when these samples were taken? I didn't see that in the book. I would suspect that a discus' diet would be much different in the flood stage when everything is in abundance compared to the low water season. Feeding this diet (in the book) year around to tank raised discus would no doubt produce some sad looking discus. Not much for the show tank is my guess.

The amino acid profile would have to be important in proper developement of a discus. We all know by now that fry and juvenile discus need twice the fat content than adults, using fat as a means to produce energy, and protein (amino acids) for building tissue. The question would be can and does the source of the protein matter. Does a discus assimilate proteins better from animal sources or plant? If animal, beefheart, fish meat, crustacean or insect? Would a protein gel food made from plant protein mix from a health food center prove to be the best? Or a combination of plant and an animal source?

These are questions I would like to see answered scientifically by the University of Malaysia or Ryan's study. As mentioned, discus are just not some little fish in Malaysia's economy. They have a vested interest in the study of discus.

Mat

[Eddie]

I agree with you Mat, 100%! Good post!

Take care,

Eddie

[RD.]

The question would be can and does the source of the protein matter. Does a discus assimilate proteins better from animal sources or plant? If animal, beefheart, fish meat, crustacean or insect? Would a protein gel food made from plant protein mix from a health food center prove to be the best? Or a combination of plant and an animal source?


With regards to growth in fish, protein strictly from plant matter will never equal that derived from animal sources. There is no need to wait for any studies to take place to answer that question. There are essential amino & fatty acids that are present in fish meal, krill meal, shrimp meal, etc that are not present in tissue from terrestrial plants or animals. (Ruth Francis-Floyd, DVM - Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences Department, University of Florida)

Fish also require long chain fatty acids that are not found in tissue from terrestrial organisms. Fish meal, krill meal, shrimp meal, etc are the best source for these essential fatty acids. Also, crustacean meals serve as a source of carotenoid pigments (astaxanthin) that are not only offer superb natural color enhancement, but they also provide important anti-oxidants that act as an immune system stimulant.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that one should use the list from Heiko Bleher's book as the benchmark for the perfect discus diet, only that if one was to incorporate most of these various ingredients into a single food, in the proper balance, one would be able to provide the fish will all of the essential nutrients required for optimum growth & longevity. All fish require some animal & some plant matter, no matter the species.

Once again, amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, etc, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix can already be found in commercial foods. There is simply no need to feed beefheart, and no "health" advantage in doing so. (at least none that has ever been published by an accredited institution)

The fact that one can grow a juvenile fish larger, faster, does not equate to the fish being as healthy, or healthier, than the fish that has yet to reach that size. The long term results of feeding trout chow that you mentioned is a prime example of that.

How long did this study in China last? What was the inclusion rate of the spinach? How was the spinach prepared for this formula? Fresh, frozen, dry, or? Were other types of plant matter explored, such as algae meal, spirulina, etc, or just spinach? Were necropsies performed at the end of the feed trial? If so, was tissue from the livers of both of these groups of juveniles examined for lipid deposition? If not, why not? Or was maximum growth the only interest in this study?

From the info supplied, that study doesn't amount to anything, or prove anything, other than a sole diet of beefheart offers better growth than a beefheart mix where (some?) spinach has been incorporated.


Feeding a properly balanced diet (one consisting of both aquatic protein & plant matter) doesn't necessarily equate to sacrificing growth, or health in a fish, and in the vast majority of cases will provide more optimum long term overall health in the fish, no matter if the fish is classified as carnivorous, omnivorous, or herbivorous. I think that you will be very hard pressed to find any of the leading experts in the field of fish nutrition that will argue with that.

[DarkSide]

Except, in practice. I know a breeder who retired after about 40 years of keeping and breeding. He had fish direct from Jack Wattley he paid a fortune for back in 1980. These fish lived for over 10 years of breeding, then several more after being retired. He had as many as 10 pairs at a time and fed Tetra bits and his beefheart mix which contained everything you could think of as Wattley gave him directions. Bred in captivity discus have a different life cycle then wild caught so I believe they assimilate to things like diet rather well. But, I do agree many methods work and would never condemn one over another, it just what works for you is best.

[Daniella]

wow, amazing post! thanks for sharing this.


Actually we know quite a bit. The following link contains some valuable information that may come as a surprise to many discus keepers.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1679-62252008000400008





The scientific journal linked to above pretty much clears up the myth that discus are a highly carnivorous species that require massive amounts of protein for proper growth.

Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species.

I have no argument with those stats, and the same could be said for hundreds/thousands of ornamental species, but somehow this data has been used by certain segments of the discus world to support their use of a high protein diet (such as beefheart) throughout the various life stages of the fish.

Chong et al used fish meal as the source of protein (along with casein & gelatine as binding agents) in their study, not beefheart, and those levels of protein/fat were for juvenile discus, not adults, or even semi adults.


In Heiko Bleher's Discus book vol 1. it also gives a full description of wild Discus nutrition and states that the 5 most common items eaten by discus in the wild are; detritus, vegetable matter, algae & micro algae, aquatic invertebrates, terrestrial & arboreal arthropods.

IMHO the goal should be to closely match the amino acids, fatty acids, etc as the fish would receive if eating in the wild. With today's commercial foods this is much easier to do than 20-30 yrs ago. Amino acids & fatty acids from crustacean sources, algae and micro-algae, green plant matter made up from flowers, fruits, seeds, and leaves, along with a well balanced vitamin & trace mineral mix. I don't think that you can come much closer to a discus fishes natural diet than that, and all of those ingredients can already be found in commercial foods.

If one feels the need to supplement their discus fishes diet, I would think that insects such as ants, spiders, etc would be far better suited to their digestive system, than foods such as beefheart.

Also, while all fish have to potential to become fat, unfortunately excess fat deposits (which typically are found surrounding some of the fishes internal organs, such as the liver, hence the term "fatty liver disease") aren't always visible to the naked eye until it is far too late. The study linked to below shows just how quickly this can take place, even in juvenile fish.
http://afsjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1577/A03-035.1

While that study did not specifically involve discus, it did involve cichlids and I think that it's fair to say that one could safely extrapolate the information gleaned from that study to discus. While a high protein, high fat diet may indeed bring on swift growth, over the long haul it can also eventually result in excess lipid deposition and necrosis of the liver, ultimately leading to premature death. In essence a discus that is fed a less than ideal diet and that dies at the ripe old age of 5-10 yrs, may have possibly reached 15-20 yrs (or longer) with a more properly balanced diet.

While it's also true that excess amino acids (protein) are simply excreted, there are various studies where it has been stated that if too much excess protein is supplied in a fishes diet, that due to the energy required to deaminate & excrete those excess amino acids, that one can actually experience a decrease in the growth of the fish. So not only can crude protein in excess of the fishes requirement lead to excess excretion of ammonia via the gills and excess nitrogen from the feces, it can also be counter productive to the growth of the fish.


HTH

[Daniella]

I was wondering about that. If discus in the wild had the choice of better food all year around, would they have better health? My guess is yes but what do I know? :)

I am thinking that they eat this diet bacause they have nothing else to eat, not because it's the best diet for them?



I would suspect that a discus' diet would be much different in the flood stage when everything is in abundance compared to the low water season. Feeding this diet (in the book) year around to tank raised discus would no doubt produce some sad looking discus. Not much for the show tank is my guess.


Mat

[Eddie]

I am thinking that they eat this diet bacause they have nothing else to eat, not because it's the best diet for them?

This is a fact, not a thought.

Eddie

[DarkSide]

But remember, they evolve to their diet in the wild, only the strong, and adaptable survive. If the diet was so bad they would become extinct.

[DarkSide]

Hahaha, thats why we keep mostly tank bred fish, easier then the wilds. ;)

[ShinShin]

RD,

The study happened 10 years ago. Who remembers exactly what it said. It was a study based on scientific method which concluded that the fry fed 100% outgrew those that weren't. The discus digestive system evolves over its first year to process the food it requires over its lifetime. While your last post may be informative to some, all it really says is to feed your discus a quality pettet.

Mat

[Eddie]

Hahaha, thats why we keep mostly tanks bred fish, easier then the wilds. ;)

Just different requirements. ;) They love a nice seafood mix too, not found in the wild.

Eddie

[DarkSide]

I see what you feed yours, works great from you pictures. Hey, I'm the first to say when something works, keep using it. Got that metaphor from an NFL coach but thats another story.

[Eddie]

I see what you feed yours, works great from you pictures. Hey, I'm the first to say when something works, keep using it. Got that metaphor from an NFL coach but thats another story.

Cheers!

Take care,

Eddie

[RD.]

While your last post may be informative to some, all it really says is to feed your discus a quality pettet.

I'm not too sure how you came to that conclusion?

There are many ways that one can provide the proper nutrients & balance to a fishes diet, besides just pellets and/or flakes. I have never once stated that there isn't. Not to mention the fact that it doesn't matter how nutrient dense a food is, if the fish refuse to eat it. I'm simply not a fan of feeding beef, to fish, and other than it causing quick growth, I have never seen any properly controlled studies performed by an accredited institution that would lead me to believe that beef is a healthy choice for the long term health of a fish. The info that you supplied with regards to the study in China hasn't changed my opinion. I realize that for many the fact that it "works", is good enough.

You asked some questions regarding animal vs. plant protein, and I answered them to the best of my ability. I just think that it's silly to sit back & wait for some definitive feed trial, when most of what one needs to know is already out there. Most feed trials in the aquatic industry last weeks, which also doesn't paint a true picture IF one is considering the long term health of the fish. Hence my comments with regards to the beefheart study that you mentioned.

HTH

[brewmaster15]

Hmmm... I see alot of speculation on diet here...the good , the bad, and the ugly of what to feed and how much... which is pretty much the norm in Discus Diet discussions... I wonder though how relevent it all is when you compare captive discus to wilds.... one might say all domestic discus are obese at least part of the year;):) ...if you compare them to wilds.

Personally I think we all over feed our captive discus in some form..as most/all wild discus and fish in general go thru lean times which use up the fat reserves from the good times...Its a cycle that ties in closely with the breeding cycles of these fish in the wild... Biologically...I think we have much we can learn from wild stock....and it doesn't necessary just apply to the discus.:)

Some "food for thought?";)

Chow,
al

[Scribbles]

There are many good thought provoking points in this thread. Now I'm wondering if there needs to be different foods for juvies and adults to meet nutritional needs at different lifestages. Kind of like Puppy Chow vs. Dog Chow. Mammals need more protein as juvies but too much protein at too young of an age can lead to disaster. I know with dogs and horses that joint and skeletal problems occur with too much growth too fast. However, fish live in water which supports much of their weight so this may not even be an issue. Have there been any studies regarding juvies eating too much and growing too big too fast?

Chris

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

There are many good thought provoking points in this thread. Now I'm wondering if there needs to be different foods for juvies and adults to meet nutritional needs at different lifestages. Kind of like Puppy Chow vs. Dog Chow. Mammals need more protein as juvies but too much protein at too young of an age can lead to disaster. I know with dogs and horses that joint and skeletal problems occur with too much growth too fast. However, fish live in water which supports much of their weight so this may not even be an issue. Have there been any studies regarding juvies eating too much and growing too big too fast?

Chris

A discus' nutritional needs could change month to month as they grow and get older. Some fish have proven nutritional requirements which change slightly every few weeks as they grow....knowing those slight changes keeps you on the better end of the feed conversion ratio and keeps them growing at the fastest pace physically possible. Since discus are a comparatively small market, very little research has been put into those kinds of needs.

-Ryan

[RD.]

Now I'm wondering if there needs to be different foods for juvies and adults to meet nutritional needs at different lifestages.

Absolutely! As previously stated; Chong et al ran a 3 month feed trial on juvenile discus (fish approx. 4.5 grams in weight) and concluded that a diet consisting of 45-50% protein, and 8% fat was ideal for optimum growth for juveniles of this species. I have no argument with those stats, and the same could be said for hundreds/thousands of ornamental species .......

Having said that, adult fish (regardless of the species) typically require far less protein/fat as they reach maturity & their metabolisms slow down.

[ShinShin]

RD,

What I meant was while you said alot a structure of fatty acids, etc., it didn't answer anything other than feed a diet that most pellets contain.

How a discus assimilates its food will vary from other species. That was my point. The intestinal tract will tell what the primary food source is. A trout has a short intestine running from the stomach to the anus in a straigt line. Very short. Meat eater. The Pacu has a very long intestinal tract when compared to a trout of the same weight, primarily a plant eater. Excessive meat will cause this fish problems. Trout eating a pellet derived from plant protein would not have enough time in the gut to draw out the nutrients but is fine for a Pacu. A discus intestinal lengthens with age, as would its nutrient needs.

Chong's study that you reference does not meet the same conclusion that others have done. 50% protein and 12% fat was determined for growing discus, and the fat content half that for adults while the protein requirement was the same.

Mat

[RD.]

Hi Mat,

I would like to think that I answered more than just that. :)

Let me preface my following comment by stating that I'm in no way attempting to be argumentative, so hopefully I'm not coming off that way.
Also, I have read your various comments on nutrition over the years & I have always respected your input. In many cases I agree 100% with what you have to say.


Having said that, while a fish may be genetically hard wired to primarily eat meat, in most cases those fish will also receive a certain amount of various nutrients (not necessarily protein) from the plant matter that their prey consumes. It's part of the natural food chain.

A carnivore cannot exist on a diet that is simply made up from meat, anymore than a herbivore can exist on a diet that strictly consists of plant matter. IMHO the vast majority of ALL species of fish are essentially omnivores, to some degree or another. While it may be true that a discus will assimilate its food differently than other species, the same can be said about most of the various ornamental species of fish. But they all follow the same basic principles, since all fish have the same basic muscle and organ systems. I don't believe that we have to re-invent the wheel, in order to supply a high quality diet to our fish.

There are basically four main components that make up the diets of fish; proteins (chains of amino acids), lipids (fats) carbohydrates, and vitamins/minerals. These are important for both growth and as an energy source. We also know that there are a number of amino acids that are essential to the proper growth & overall health of fish. While the exact amount of each type of amino acid required for optimum growth & health, for each species of fish, may at this time be unknown, as long as all of the essential amino acids are present in sufficient quantity there is little risk of depriving the fish. Any excess amino acids are simply excreted as waste. Depending on the amount of lipids in the diet, any excess protein may also be utilized as an energy source. With a keen eye it should be possible for most fish keepers to visibly see if/when the fish is not reaching its growth potential within any given time frame. Also, the total nutrient intake can be tweaked by feeding more frequently, or possibly by feeding larger quantities at each feeding.

IMO there are simply too many variables involved within each tank, or group of fish, to give a definitive answer as to what is the "perfect diet" for any species of fish. Vitamins & minerals alone play a major role in a fishes overall health (for metabolic conversion) for anyone to simply focus on protein/fat levels, and come to any final dietary conclusions.

With regards to the various studies that you mentioned, can you reference these studies by chance? I'd be very interested in taking a closer look at exactly how these studies were performed, and how they drew their conclusions.

Typically when protein is mentioned in a study, that value is taken from the foods nitrogen content. It doesn't tell you much more than that, such as the biological value of the protein, the total digestibility of that protein by the fish in the study, or even how that protein source was initially prepared or processed. As an example, ten groups of different fish meal, could prove to have a different effect on the total growth of a fish, as there are various grades of fish meal, processed under different conditions, using different species of fish (or fish by-products) to make up the finished product. Even if the total protein (nitrogen) content is identical. There could be a huge difference between two very similar foods that both contain 45% crude protein.

To say that an adult discus requires the same amount of protein as a juvenile, tends to fly in the face of everything that the aquaculture community has concluded with regards to any/all species of fish that have been studied thus far. If there is some concrete evidence proving this, I would certainly love to see it.

Thanks,
Neil

[Eddie]

Hi Mat,

I would like to think that I answered more than just that. :)

Let me preface my following comment by stating that I'm in no way attempting to be argumentative, so hopefully I'm not coming off that way.
Also, I have read your various comments on nutrition over the years & I have always respected your input. In many cases I agree 100% with what you have to say.


Having said that, while a fish may be genetically hard wired to primarily eat meat, in most cases those fish will also receive a certain amount of various nutrients (not necessarily protein) from the plant matter that their prey consumes. It's part of the natural food chain.

A carnivore cannot exist on a diet that is simply made up from meat, anymore than a herbivore can exist on a diet that strictly consists of plant matter. IMHO the vast majority of ALL species of fish are essentially omnivores, to some degree or another. While it may be true that a discus will assimilate its food differently than other species, the same can be said about most of the various ornamental species of fish. But they all follow the same basic principles, since all fish have the same basic muscle and organ systems. I don't believe that we have to re-invent the wheel, in order to supply a high quality diet to our fish.

There are basically four main components that make up the diets of fish; proteins (chains of amino acids), lipids (fats) carbohydrates, and vitamins/minerals. These are important for both growth and as an energy source. We also know that there are a number of amino acids that are essential to the proper growth & overall health of fish. While the exact amount of each type of amino acid required for optimum growth & health, for each species of fish, may at this time be unknown, as long as all of the essential amino acids are present in sufficient quantity there is little risk of depriving the fish. Any excess amino acids are simply excreted as waste. Depending on the amount of lipids in the diet, any excess protein may also be utilized as an energy source. With a keen eye it should be possible for most fish keepers to visibly see if/when the fish is not reaching its growth potential within any given time frame. Also, the total nutrient intake can be tweaked by feeding more frequently, or possibly by feeding larger quantities at each feeding.

IMO there are simply too many variables involved within each tank, or group of fish, to give a definitive answer as to what is the "perfect diet" for any species of fish. Vitamins & minerals alone play a major role in a fishes overall health (for metabolic conversion) for anyone to simply focus on protein/fat levels, and come to any final dietary conclusions.

With regards to the various studies that you mentioned, can you reference these studies by chance? I'd be very interested in taking a closer look at exactly how these studies were performed, and how they drew their conclusions.

Typically when protein is mentioned in a study, that value is taken from the foods nitrogen content. It doesn't tell you much more than that, such as the biological value of the protein, the total digestibility of that protein by the fish in the study, or even how that protein source was initially prepared or processed. As an example, ten groups of different fish meal, could prove to have a different effect on the total growth of a fish, as there are various grades of fish meal, processed under different conditions, using different species of fish (or fish by-products) to make up the finished product. Even if the total protein (nitrogen) content is identical. There could be a huge difference between two very similar foods that both contain 45% crude protein.

To say that an adult discus requires the same amount of protein as a juvenile, tends to fly in the face of everything that the aquaculture community has concluded with regards to any/all species of fish that have been studied thus far. If there is some concrete evidence proving this, I would certainly love to see it.

Thanks,
Neil

Very informative post Neil. I also think there are too many variables as to what diet is appropriate for each individuals fish. There are many different goals out there when it comes to raising discus or keeping discus. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[Tito]

RD - as always you're comments are well versed and the research is just as good. I've read many other posts of yours in other forums in regards to Tropheus and the product you vendor - you and P. are in my opinion truthful and helpful. I agree with you totally.

If a heavy meat diet is known to contribute to heart disease, obesity and other illnesses like cancer in humans who are omnivores, I would be certain to place all bets that the same can be said for animals that are omnivores. Namely that Discus are not sharks and therefore are not designed to eat tons of beef heart or other forms of meat in very large quantities. It is most certainly not the healthiest diet for them. But people can be selfish and care only about their desires - and when their minds are made up there may be no way of convincing them otherwise. I will have to differ strongly with those that want to perpetuate that Discus require such a high protein diet. I believe they don't. But...if someone wants to produce big fat Discus for show - by all means do it - it's your fish. But to tell the hobby as a collective that this is what Discus require is an ethical error and one should be more responsible for the sake of the animals as well as the general practice of a more better husbandry for the average Discus keeper.

[jerbear]

This has been a very interesting, comical, and informative tread to read over… Obviously, thier are two different schools of thoughts here however, since I know the beefheart/seafood mix schedule of feeding juvenile discus, I would like to hear more specific information from Neil regarding feeding juvenile/sub adult discus.. Neil, I know you said commercial products but if you could please name them spefically, the variety you feed them, and a feeding schedule.

[RD.]

Hi Jerry,

It would be best if I left out specifics, as I do have a vested interest in the fish food industry. As you can see from this discussion, there are many ways to successfully raise & feed ones discus. :)

My main reason for posting in discussions such as this one is not for promotional reasons, but to hopefully bring about a greater overall awareness with regards to what & how we feed our fish. (including myself)

As Al mentioned previously I think that some hobbyists do tend to overfeed their fish, and of course if one isn't careful overfeeding can potentially lead to health issues down the road.
While there is much to be said about sticking to tried & true feeding methods, I firmly believe that there is always room for improvement, in almost every aspect of this hobby.
That's what make forums like this so great, we can all learn something from the open sharing of information.

I'm also not so naive as to think that feeding nothing but pellets is the definitive answer to the "best" way to keep every fish in captivity, but I do believe that there are safer/better (with regards to overall health and longevity) than simply pumping fish up with foodstuffs such as beef.

Neil

[Roxanne]

Hi Neil

Do you have control groups of fish that you test different food stuffs on?

Roxanne

[RD.]

Hi Roxanne,

Currently no, I personally do not have any feed trials taking place.

Neil

[lpiasente]

Mine all have big double chins, I even named one Homer Simpson. I better cut back on some feeds.:)