feeding discus

[FishCraz]

I heard feeding too much blood worms is not good for your discus because blood worms has too much protein. Is that true?:confused:

[rickztahone]

I heard feeding too much blood worms is not good for your discus because blood worms has too much protein. Is that true?:confused:

it has more to do with discus needing a well balanced diet which bloodworms alone will not provide. including beefheart, flakes, granuals, brine shrimp...etc.

[FishCraz]

Oh I see. Thanks.

[MSD]

I feed my flakes and pellets early, then Al's Beefheart mix, and lastly the frozen blodworms from Hikari. They each meal with gusto so I'm sure they are getting balanced nutrition.

[Eddie]

I feed my flakes and pellets early, then Al's Beefheart mix, and lastly the frozen blodworms from Hikari. They each meal with gusto so I'm sure they are getting balanced nutrition.

Don't lie Mark...you know you are a closet Eddie's Seafood Mix user! LOL

FishCraz,

As Ricardo mentioned, its about a well balanced diet and blood worms alone don't cover it.

Take care,

Eddie

[FishCraz]

Thank you guys so much for the help. I don't think local fish stores sale any beefheart mix huh? I'm from Milwaukee. :)

[seanyuki]

To me one of the challenges of keeping discus would be try to find the right diet for the fish.The variety of food mixes,live or frozen and homemade processed food is waht makes feeding discus interesting.Imagine how boring it would be if everyone fed the same type of perfect food to their fish....be creative in making your own homemade mixes:D....just my 2 cents.:)

[Eddie]

Thank you guys so much for the help. I don't think local fish stores sale any beefheart mix huh? I'm from Milwaukee. :)

I agree with Francis 100%. A good well balanced diet is half the battle in successfully raising discus.

Try a mix, look up recipes and see what works for your fish. They will love you for it and you will love them back more. ;)

Eddie

[Vieira]

I agree with Francis 100%. A good well balanced diet is half the battle in successfully raising discus.

Try a mix, look up recipes and see what works for your fish. They will love you for it and you will love them back more. ;)

Eddie

Eddie what is your seafood mix?

[Eddie]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69130

Cheers

[Vieira]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69130

Cheers

Thank Eddie

[Eddie]

Thank Eddie

One thing to mention, all the fish is raw. You can substitute items but maintain that weight/amount. For example, for the clams, you can use shrimps in their place. For the salmon, you can use cod in its place or just all cod. Don't use any freshwater fish or any canned items. Garlic is very important and so is the liquid vitamin (Centrum). You can also use other brand flakes or other brand pellets. One very important item is the banana. The more ripe (black) the banana is, the better I find the mix holds together. Its all up to you and and you will never make the same mix twice.

If you any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Eddie

[Vieira]

One thing to mention, all the fish is raw. You can substitute items but maintain that weight/amount. For example, for the clams, you can use shrimps in their place. For the salmon, you can use cod in its place or just all cod. Don't use any freshwater fish or any canned items. Garlic is very important and so is the liquid vitamin (Centrum). You can also use other brand flakes or other brand pellets. One very important item is the banana. The more ripe (black) the banana is, the better I find the mix holds together. Its all up to you and and you will never make the same mix twice.

If you any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Eddie

Thanks I hope my wife will let me try this . I know Im looking forward to it.

[Eddie]

Thanks I hope my wife will let me try this . I know Im looking forward to it.

The way I get my wife to let me do it, is to pick up some extra tuna and salmon for her to eat sushi. :D

Eddie

[mmorris]

One thing to mention, all the fish is raw.

We shouldn't be feeding raw seafood to our fish. Some raw fish and shellfish contain thiaminase, which destroys vitamin B (thiamine). It seems to be a bit more prevalent in fresh water species, so that doesn't generally concern us, but shrimp, herring, clams and mussles, among other types, contain it. One study, listed first below, found that 56 percent of freshwater fish contained it, 51% of saltwater. There's a lot on the internet; I just pulled a few off quickly.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume...thiaminase.htm
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA097
http://www.mazuri.com/Thiamin-E.htm?Animal=Zoological

[Eddie]

Yeah, been feeding it for quite some time and well.....there probably isn't a mix out there without shrimp in it or some kind of raw seafood. LOL

Good links you posted though, very informative.

Eddie

[mmorris]

Yeah, been feeding it for quite some time and well.....there probably isn't a mix out there without shrimp in it or some kind of raw seafood. LOL

Good links you posted though, very informative.

Eddie

Maybe, but knowing this, doesn't it make sense to recommend that people cook their fish and shellfish?

[Eddie]

Maybe, but knowing this, doesn't it make sense to recommend that people cook their fish and shellfish?

Where is the harm when are adding back vitamins into the mix?

Utilizing raw fish as a main ingredient in fish feeds has long been recognized to be harmful to the health and growth of fish due primarily to the presence of the anti-nutrient, thiaminase. Thiaminase, an enzyme that destroys thiamine (vitamin B-1), one of the essential water-soluble vitamins, is mostly found in freshwater fish and is destroyed by heat (i.e., cooking). Other concerns related to using raw fish in diets include the spread of infectious diseases such as mycobacterium and botulism. In preparing diets, preferential use of marine fish is suggested to minimize thiaminase activity, and raw fish could be steamed or poached.

quote from
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA097

Bring some more to the table

Eddie

[mmorris]

I have no reason to think that it only destroys the thiamine that was in the seafood originally and not the thiamine that was added to the seafood later. Just something to keep in mind, Eddie. :)

[Eddie]

I have no reason to think that it only destroys the thiamine that was in the seafood originally and not the thiamine that was added to the seafood later. Just something to keep in mind, Eddie. :)



Thiamin
Thiamin deficiencies can also occur in animals consuming unprocessed raw fish. Uncooked fish from many species have high thiaminase activity as do tissues from clams, shrimp and mussels. Thiaminase activity is lower in most salt-water fish tissues compared to freshwater species (Halver, 1989). The thiaminase enzyme ruptures the thiazole ring at the sulfur bond making the thiamin molecule inactive. Deficiency symptoms include neurological disorders, edema, anorexia. Mink and foxes consuming raw fish exhibit "Chastek paralysis" which has classical symptoms (McDowell, 1989). Thiamin·E is formulated to provide 50 mg thiamin per kilogram of fish. It has been determined that a seal weighing 80 kg and consuming 4-6 kg fish per day has a daily thiamin requirement of 100-150 mg thiamin (Geraci, 1974).

Taken from:
http://www.mazuri.com/Thiamin-E.htm?Animal=Zoological

Now what you are saying is that using raw seafood can cause thiamin deficiency. Animals, not fish that were in this reference basically lacked thiamin, which caused.....what harm?

Are we worried about neurological disorders, edema, anorexia in our fish???

And as I mentioned, the centrum liquid vitamins in my mix contains thiamine.

http://www.centrum.com/product_detail.aspx?productid=CENTRUM&panel=liquid

Thiamin 1.5 mg 100%

Eddie

[mmorris]

It's up to you. I'll cook my shrimp. :)

[Eddie]

It's up to you. I'll cook my shrimp. :)

To each his/her own.

No problem in suggesting, they were just asking for my mix and that's how my mix is prepared.

Good luck with yours!

Eddie

[MSD]

Eddie, my fish seem to go for some beefheart in the diet, they love Al's mix. ;)

As for cooked food, I'm sure cooking destroys more vitamins and minerals the the raw does. And if you go to any Aquarium they feed only raw food mixes not cooked, can you imagine?? Auntie Em is wrong, and raw shrimp is the best binder for the mixes. We all do it our own way,may god bless. :D

[mmorris]

Eddie, my fish seem to go for some beefheart in the diet, they love Al's mix. ;)

As for cooked food, I'm sure cooking destroys more vitamins and minerals the the raw does. And if you go to any Aquarium they feed only raw food mixes not cooked, can you imagine?? Auntie Em is wrong, and raw shrimp is the best binder for the mixes. We all do it our own way,may god bless. :D

Good morning Ms.D! It's not an issue of `right' or `wrong.'
I see the first link doesn't work. For an article on fish's reproductive problems as a result of thiamine deficiency and thiaminase:
http://www.glsc.usgs.gov/main.php?content=research_initiatives_thiamine&title=Initiatives0&menu=research_initiatives_thiamine
From the second article I listed entitled: Preparing your own fishfood:
"Utilizing raw fish as a main ingredient in fish feeds has long been recognized to be harmful to the health and growth of fish due primarily to the presence of the anti-nutrient, thiaminase. Thiaminase, an enzyme that destroys thiamine (vitamin B-1), one of the essential water-soluble vitamins, is mostly found in freshwater fish and is destroyed by heat (i.e., cooking). Other concerns related to using raw fish in diets include the spread of infectious diseases such as mycobacterium and botulism. In preparing diets, preferential use of marine fish is suggested to minimize thiaminase activity, and raw fish could be steamed or poached"

[Eddie]

Eddie, my fish seem to go for some beefheart in the diet, they love Al's mix. ;)

As for cooked food, I'm sure cooking destroys more vitamins and minerals the the raw does. And if you go to any Aquarium they feed only raw food mixes not cooked, can you imagine?? Auntie Em is wrong, and raw shrimp is the best binder for the mixes. We all do it our own way,may god bless. :D

Don't worry Mark, I know......;)

All them anorexic dolphins eating raw fish everyday with their neurological disorders constantly jumping through hoops and spinning in the air. LOL

Eddie

[mmorris]

Something like 49-51% of saltwater fish varieties (I forget the exact number) contain thiaminase so it depends on what the species eats. Shellfish is a particular problem. I think there is something to be learned here.

[Eddie]

Something like 49-51% of saltwater fish varieties (I forget the exact number) contain thiaminase so it depends on what the species eats. Shellfish is a particular problem. I think there is something to be learned here.

Maybe there is Martha, just not in this guys post. He asked for advice and it was given. If there is something to be learned about thiamin and or thiaminase, it can be approached in the food and nutrition section, in its own thread.


Eddie

[mmorris]

If you read through the advice again I think you will find it follows right along. You are right, though; it is worth it's own thread.

[Eddie]

If you read through the advice again I think you will find it follows right along. You are right, though; it is worth it's own thread.

Not exactly, even in re-reading the posts, you make a bold statement about raw fish and how it causes thiamin deficiency. Most of the references used, go into freshwater raw fish and shellfish.

Where is the literature on the thiamin deficiency and discus? How can it be something to be warned when there is no evidence of adverse effects of thiamin deficiency? Where is there any science that proves thiamin supplementation can or cannot benifit discus health? There are far too many empty answers to make your statement.

You cook your food and I will keep mine raw, easy as that. PM the guys who asked the question tell them about your ideas. It doesn't change the way I make my food in any way shape or form.

Eddie

[MSD]

1) Then why does the tropical fish industry sell its frozen food raw and not cooked?

2) Does raw fish cause ripples in the dorsal fins??

Riddle me that, Bat......Morris

[silent_thunder]

I agree with Francis 100%. A good well balanced diet is half the battle in successfully raising discus.

Try a mix, look up recipes and see what works for your fish. They will love you for it and you will love them back more. ;)

Eddie

Well I have a few THAT dont want to eat much no matter what I toss at em...

I call em...flushable as I play *The Devil sang out down in Georgia*

[silent_thunder]

The Lights Went Out In Georgia...thats bugged me all day the name of that song...