Discus and Gold Nugget die after water change...

[inssane]

Hello all.
My first post is not a pleasant one.

I was going to begin a daily 50% water change plan to help my two Discus to grow. (per readings on this site) They were about 4-5 inches and I have had one for over a year and the other for longer than 6 months.
I normally do a 30% change twice a week and once a month a 50% change.
I use regular water from the tap, with stress coat and a little stress zyme. I stick with Chicago tap water because the places I get the Discus from use that as well, no sense in changing water type if they are used to it.
My tank is a 55 gallon with various tetras and a few threadfin rainbows.
No new fish have been added for at least 4-6 months.

These fish have handled minor ich outbreaks, overheating, and a cold tank due to a faulty heater, and minor parasites in the past.
All of my water parameters are perfect and my pH has always sat at 7.2-7.4. Straight out of the tap is 7.4 - never went much lower despite the fact that I have a gigantic malaysian driftwood stump that yellowed the water for a solid year (I have had the tank for 4 years and the Discus for just over 1 year)

24 hours after this water change, the oldest and hardiest Discus died. The Gold Nugget Pleco too. I am boggled, and don't know what manner they died in since they were dead when I got back from work.

Any ideas? I did everything like I have 100 times.
Nick

[Chad Hughes]

Nick,

I am really sorry to hear about your loss. Obviously the probelm you encountered is something in your water. Noting else kills discus faster than contaminated water. I realize that you know your water parameters very well. I guess the question that I would have to ask is when was the last time you tested? Typically basic water parameter changes will not kill your discus this fast, but I have to raise the question.

My second question is about the environment that you keep your discus tank. Have you had any home construction, painting, fumigating, spray for bugs, etc. that may have contaminated the air around the tank and possibly contaminated the water through gas exchange? I have seen rapid death occur due to poisoning from these types of activities in the home.

Any additional information that you could provide outside the questions that I have posed would be helpful. Any changes, even considered subtle, must be taken in to consideration.

Best wishes!

[mmorris]

What is the temperature of your tank, and what was the temperature of the water going into your tank?

[poconogal]

Any chance you forgot to add your dechlor?

Or your water supplier may have increased the amount of chlorine or chloramine they added to the water supply and you did not add enough Stress Coat to counter the higher amount.

Also, to add to what Chad said about fumes - even hanging a new vinyl shower curtain can cause problems. Years ago I had some fish die by the next day after hanging a new one and I did read on the net that fumes from vinyl shower curtains can be toxic.

[DLock3d]

I've screwed the pooch myself with forgetting the dechlor before the addition of new water. Thankfully, I haven't had any deaths yet. Sorry about your loss.

[Chad Hughes]

I've screwed the pooch myself with forgetting the dechlor before the addition of new water. Thankfully, I haven't had any deaths yet. Sorry about your loss.

No matter what you do.... you should never screw your pooch. ;)

You can do better than that.

Best wishes!

[Ardan]

Really sorry about your loss.

Water companies often increase the amount of chlorine/chloramine without notice. This would be the main suspect.

Ardan

[inssane]

OK.
I did suspect chlorine, but what I do is, once the python is done removing the water, I then put the "55 gallon dosage" per the bottle in the tank, THEN refill it from the valve connected to the sink. Always done it this way.
The water temp is usually 86 F and they LOVE that temp. A couple degrees lower and all tank activity halts, interesting. The water going into the tank, I try to keep it the same temp and any variation would be very minor and would not affect them.
I usually test the water once a week, maybe once every ten days. I tested the water immediately after death and removal - as well as three days later to insure there were no spikes from the dead fish.

I own three dogs and I do realize that sometimes the most unsuspecting thing can be a culprit in sickness, for example.
No new paint, airborne anything, the python gets used, drained, and stored in a dry place with circulation to dry - so no mold.
If I ever do air freshener it is always away from the tank, and the tank is resting on a cement fireplace that is 4.5 feet tall. Anything sprayed is much lower and away.
The ONLY variable I could think is chlorine - and that is a good point to figure out if the city increased the chlorine amount.

I am petrified to change my water again not really knowing because everything was consistent as usual. I guess what bothers me the most is that the Gold Nugget died, because I have never killed a pleco - they are tough as nails.

I feel bad for the lonely discus because he hides alot now instead of swimming with his pal like before. Now I have to try to afford a couple more discus, once I cool off from this.
Nick

[shawnhu]

Nick,

I wouldn't be so quick to rule it as chlorine. The dosage of Prime usually knocks out 4ppm of chlorine. Water companies usually wouldn't put that much in their water. You can purchase a chlorine test kit if you want to be certain.

I'm going to go with contaminants on this one, since the deaths were so sudden. If you notice any more illness, I would go ahead and do the water changes, with a higher dose of Prime if you are uncomfortable. Try out a tank that's not inhabitted by Discus first, the Heros.

[SriAngel]

Sorry to hear about the loss,

My 2 cents, letting the tap water degass is just as important as dechloring (especially when adding water directly from the tap). Cold water and the temperature causes gases to be supersaturated in water, as it enters the warm discus tank that air escapes out of the water. Imagine this happening inside the fishes bodies, blood vessels bursting as nitrogen and other atmospheric gases escape, very similar to the bends people get when diving. Are you using a python to do your water changes? And when you are sending the water back, is it entering the tank below the water level? Were the fish laying on their sides dark after the water change? Did you notice any bloat on the fish?

[SriAngel]

Ohh after reading more carefully i noticed you do use a python, im almost 99 percent certain that the cause of the loss of your fish is from gas bubble disease (after Al figured this out after a long frantic conversation with me as to why my fish were dying). Think of it this way i lost close to 22 fish that day almost 2 years ago when i was a newbie. The bright side when i figured out this gas bubble thing and let the pythong above the water line and let the water drip into the tank...I can now do 100 percent water changes with no stress on the fish, in fact some eat while this is going on.

[Daniella]

so the pleco died and one discus still survive? that's strange that the pleco died and not the other discus? If it was chlorine, why are not all the fish dead? Especialy if discus are more sensitive to this than pleco, so that's really wierd.

does stress coat take care of chloramine?

This never hapened to me but I am also scared each time I do water change! why I prefer to do small water change often than a large water change.







OK.
I did suspect chlorine, but what I do is, once the python is done removing the water, I then put the "55 gallon dosage" per the bottle in the tank, THEN refill it from the valve connected to the sink. Always done it this way.
The water temp is usually 86 F and they LOVE that temp. A couple degrees lower and all tank activity halts, interesting. The water going into the tank, I try to keep it the same temp and any variation would be very minor and would not affect them.
I usually test the water once a week, maybe once every ten days. I tested the water immediately after death and removal - as well as three days later to insure there were no spikes from the dead fish.

I own three dogs and I do realize that sometimes the most unsuspecting thing can be a culprit in sickness, for example.
No new paint, airborne anything, the python gets used, drained, and stored in a dry place with circulation to dry - so no mold.
If I ever do air freshener it is always away from the tank, and the tank is resting on a cement fireplace that is 4.5 feet tall. Anything sprayed is much lower and away.
The ONLY variable I could think is chlorine - and that is a good point to figure out if the city increased the chlorine amount.

I am petrified to change my water again not really knowing because everything was consistent as usual. I guess what bothers me the most is that the Gold Nugget died, because I have never killed a pleco - they are tough as nails.

I feel bad for the lonely discus because he hides alot now instead of swimming with his pal like before. Now I have to try to afford a couple more discus, once I cool off from this.
Nick

[Daniella]

This make a lot of sense.

I also use a python often and at first I noticed that there were lots of tiny bubbles in the water. I then started to use 3 coffe filter stacked together and I wrap that around the tip of my tubing and tie it with a rubber band. Any water then go through the filters and there are no more air bubbles. This is a good easy way to avoid putting air bubbles in the tank while refilling with a python.

Also when refilling directly in the tank, I always put more dechlorinator just to be safe. it it recommanded that when refilling directly in the tank, dechlorinator must be added for the full amount of the tank, not just the water added. I had 1/2 more.




Ohh after reading more carefully i noticed you do use a python, im almost 99 percent certain that the cause of the loss of your fish is from gas bubble disease (after Al figured this out after a long frantic conversation with me as to why my fish were dying). Think of it this way i lost close to 22 fish that day almost 2 years ago when i was a newbie. The bright side when i figured out this gas bubble thing and let the pythong above the water line and let the water drip into the tank...I can now do 100 percent water changes with no stress on the fish, in fact some eat while this is going on.

[shawnhu]

Ohh after reading more carefully i noticed you do use a python, im almost 99 percent certain that the cause of the loss of your fish is from gas bubble disease (after Al figured this out after a long frantic conversation with me as to why my fish were dying). Think of it this way i lost close to 22 fish that day almost 2 years ago when i was a newbie. The bright side when i figured out this gas bubble thing and let the pythong above the water line and let the water drip into the tank...I can now do 100 percent water changes with no stress on the fish, in fact some eat while this is going on.

Although it may have been your case 2 years ago, I find that it may not be the case here, as the OP indicated that he has done this for over 6 months, 100+ times. I just don't think that it was a coincidence that there were so many deaths this time around.

However, I would agree that best practice is to degas water coming from the tap whenever possible, it may save some fish lives for someone else.

Thanks for sharing Angel.


so the pleco died and one discus still survive? that's strange that the pleco died and not the other discus? If it was chlorine, why are not all the fish dead? Especialy if discus are more sensitive to this than pleco, so that's really wierd.

does stress coat take care of chloramine?

This never hapened to me but I am also scared each time I do water change! why I prefer to do small water change often than a large water change.

The OP does a 50% water change, not big by any means for Discus keeping. Please focus on the OP's problems, and not sidetrack his thread.


This make a lot of sense.

I also use a python often and at first I noticed that there were lots of tiny bubbles in the water. I then started to use 3 coffe filter stacked together and I wrap that around the tip of my tubing and tie it with a rubber band. Any water then go through the filters and there are no more air bubbles. This is a good easy way to avoid putting air bubbles in the tank while refilling with a python.

Also when refilling directly in the tank, I always put more dechlorinator just to be safe. it it recommanded that when refilling directly in the tank, dechlorinator must be added for the full amount of the tank, not just the water added. I had 1/2 more.

Each dechlorinator has different directions on it's label. Also, if you check with your municiple water supply, they can tell you how much chlorine is in your water, and a good water conditioner such as Prime will also tell you their concentration for treating each chemical. Prime at a dosage of 1ml per 10 US gallons will treat 4ppm of chlorine.

Again, please avoid sidetracking the OP's thread.

Shawn

[inssane]

Thanks for all of the advice everyone.
I am in the middle of a water change - 60% today.
I pumped plenty of "Stress Coat" brand per the bottles instructions. It replaces slime coat and removes Chlorine/Chloramines "Now More Effective" on the bottle, lol.
I am almost out so I will look into Prime since this is one pump per two gallons it goes quickly.
If I understood degassing correctly, I am doing so now. I rested the python on the top of the driftwood and the water is passing over it like rapids and down into the water. The water is really getting "shaken up" if you know what I mean.

I will let you know how it goes, and assuming water is great and there are no 24 hour deaths, I will replace the pleco. I didn't realize how much he worked until now :)

How long should I hold off on getting a couple new discus? I want the remaining one to school up and be happy.

[Wahter]

so the pleco died and one discus still survive? that's strange that the pleco died and not the other discus? If it was chlorine, why are not all the fish dead? Especialy if discus are more sensitive to this than pleco, so that's really wierd.


IME, Goldnuggets are definitely more sensitive to changes in water conditions than discus. I lost a goldnugget after a water change (and later, lost two zebras after a water change). The discus in the same tanks were okay - I did notice they were flashing their fins though, so something was definitely bothering them. Since then, I've aged my water and have not had any bad luck yet! I was using Prime to treat the water too (still do). I believe some things like gases, etc... don't come out of water as fast as we think they can.



Walter

[inssane]

Everything is good so far.
Everyone is very active and the threadfins are "flashing" so beautiful. Highly underrated fish.

Any rec. on a total quantity of fish for this tank? With the discus I probably have 25 inches of fish total in a 55 gallon.
I'd like 5 total, but if 3 is safer that is fine too.
Please suggest.

I know it's a bit off topic, but at least everyone is aware of my situation and environment in this topic to get a better feel for what I can plan on for future fish.

[Eddie]

Everything is good so far.
Everyone is very active and the threadfins are "flashing" so beautiful. Highly underrated fish.

Any rec. on a total quantity of fish for this tank? With the discus I probably have 25 inches of fish total in a 55 gallon.
I'd like 5 total, but if 3 is safer that is fine too.
Please suggest.

I know it's a bit off topic, but at least everyone is aware of my situation and environment in this topic to get a better feel for what I can plan on for future fish.

Hey there, glad to hear everything has settled down. I'd try to figure out what the water issue was if at all possible. With a 55 gallon, you could add 2 or 3 more discus IMO. Make sure you quarantine the new fish for at least 6 weeks in a tank of their own. Once the quarantine process is complete, I'd add one of your existing discus to their QT tank and then wait another 2-3 weeks. If the fish fair well, you could then add all the fish to your main tank. Now thats a process that many people skip and end up paying the price.

All the best,

Eddie

[DLock3d]

Whatever Flake... ha ha ha



No matter what you do.... you should never screw your pooch. ;)

You can do better than that.

Best wishes!