What TDS to aim for?

[KJoFan]

I posted this in my fry timeline thread but was kindly informed no one can reply there, shows what I know!

Anyway, my tap water is over 400 ppm out of tap, very hard, high pH, like 8.0-8.2. Therefore, I am choosing to switch to RO water to grow out my Wayne BK's.

I don't want to go straight RO, eventhough my unit isn't outputting at a perfect 0. So, the question is what TDS ppm do I aim for? Right now, I'm around the 200 ppm mark.

Any input is appreciated. :)

[Elite Aquaria]

Karen,

What does your PH and TDS settle down to in your tank?

For grow outs once the fish have acclimated it does not matter. You should not need to use your RO water at all. You will just need to keep a close eye on your Ammonia levels and make sure that you are keeping your tanks very clean since Bacteria can be more prevalent in higher PH as compared to a PH below 6....

[Chad Hughes]

Karen,

Dan has some good inputs here. Typically the only reason to adjust water is for breeding but I am in a smiliar situation as you. My TDS is well over 500 ppm with a Ph of 8+. Since I already make RO water for pairs, I do thin out the liquid rock that I have in my tap with a bit of RO water. I typically use 200 ppm water. It ranges between 150 and 200 ppm. I don't watch the Ph. I let it fall where it may. One thing I do check is the KH to ensure I don't encounter any Ph swings. A dKH of 4 will serve you well.

Hope that helps!

Best wishes!

[KJoFan]

As for what the pH and TDS settle to in tank I don't know, I will have to test that out.

And regarding KH it's been so long since I've tested I will also have to retest that. It always used to be pretty high, probably higher than 4, our tap water stored does not change in pH anymore than maybe a couple points over 24 hours, as I recall. Which lends to my belief that KH is fairly high, as we don't get pH swings.

I guess my reasoning for switching to at least a partial RO mix is that in the past when attempting to grow out juvies, I seem to hit a wall around the 4" mark and they just stop growing. I don't know if it's just me or what, but I feel it's possible that they just don't thrive in my far from ideal water. So, wanting to get the best out of these new fish that I can, I am looking into this RO/tap mix theory.

I will report back with my findings once I test these things out. Thanks for the suggestions so far!

[shawnhu]

PH changes in storage tanks does not give much insight as to the KH level. PH shouldn't change in a storage tank unless the water source has CO2 in it, and by degassing the CO2, the PH will rise. Depending on the amount of CO2, you may or may not see a change in PH.

For example, in NYC, the PH is 7 out of the tap. After storage, the PH is still 7. By your theory, NYC's water must have a high KH, but that's surely not the case. The water in most of NYC has a KH of less than 1 degree.

I just wanted to give an example of why that theory, holds no water.

Dan and Chad has made some very good points. A low TDS is probably only beneficial in fertilization, and not ideal for growing out Discus. Stability, clean water, and proper feeding is the key to raising healthy Discus.

[KJoFan]

Thanks for the input shawnhu. Your theory(?) makes sense. As for my actual situation, I do know the KH is high, whether the pH is stable or not. I just don't recall the exact number. I'll hunt down my test kit and see about it though.

And I also realize that low TDS water is generally for the breeding situations, which I'm aware of do and all that.

Even if my high TDS/hard water isn't the cause of my inability to growout discus sufficiently, I do believe they are less susceptible to disease when in milder, so to speak water.

Besides, unless I'm getting my water down to pure RO with no minerals to help them out, I figure an RO/tap mix can't hurt either way, and I have the means to do it.

I was just kind of wondering what would be a good TDS range to shoot for, which Chad basically provided me with.

Now...to find those test kits... ;)

[shawnhu]

Karen,

It sounds like you're all set then! I only suggested that TDS and GH in relation to breeding and not growing out because of the extra cost and care that goes into mixing, water changes, and expensive of RO Water. Often times, things happen in life that may prevent them from giving the level of care that the fish are accustomed to. And in some cases, the cost and work involved in keeping Discus deters people from this hobby.

It's always been my philosophy to simplify things and enjoy watching your fish. Most of us already have a day job, we don't need to come home to another one.

Shawn

[KJoFan]

This is true Shawn for sure. I already make RO water for my saltwater tank, and for some of my adult discus, so I'd be making it either way.

I'm working on setting up a series of barrels for water storage so am trying to figure my mix out.

It certainly was/would be easier to just fill my barrels with tap, heat and aerate and I'm good to go. Which is what I have been doing the past few years but I'm just not happy with the growth I get out of juvies I raise.

I feel like I stay up on water changes, clean tank, lots of good food and all that so now I'm looking for something else to tinker with. :D

I do certainly want to keep things simple and just enjoy the fish, but I also want to get the most out of them I can, otherwise it will have been a waste of time and money, IMO.

Another thought is that perhaps I'll aim for the 150-200 ppm TDS range for now and see how it goes. And maybe I can again gradually work them up to full tap if they seem to respond favorably. I have many months to figure this out and make small tweaks to things, I'm bound to hit on something both the fish and I are satisfied with! :)

[shawnhu]

....
I do certainly want to keep things simple and just enjoy the fish, but I also want to get the most out of them I can, otherwise it will have been a waste of time and money, IMO.
...
:)

It's all about balance, as long as you know what your limits are. That's a harsh lesson that many learn the hard way, ultimately quitting the hobby.

Like I said, looks like you got it down!

Let us know in a few how they turn out, it's always a learning experience.

[Elite Aquaria]

Karen,

Hard water will not reduce the rate at which your fish will grow. The main factors are genetics, food, husbandry and health. The main issue with discus water is to keep it clean and the water parameters consistent...no PH and temperature swings...low to no ammonia, nitrite and nitrates...

With that being said you don't want to move them into a mix of RO/Tap then start to play with what number works better. This type of experimentation will lead to the opposite of consistency. My tap water is around 175 TDS and I wish that it was harder water for grow outs since young discus need more minerals in the water to grow...go figure. I'll try calling you over the weekend...:D

[Eddie]

Karen,

Hard water will not reduce the rate at which your fish will grow. The main factors are genetics, food, husbandry and health. The main issue with discus water is to keep it clean and the water parameters consistent...no PH and temperature swings...low to no ammonia, nitrite and nitrates...

With that being said you don't want to move them into a mix of RO/Tap then start to play with what number works better. This type of experimentation will lead to the opposite of consistency. My tap water is around 175 TDS and I wish that it was harder water for grow outs since young discus need more minerals in the water to grow...go figure. I'll try calling you over the weekend...:D

Excellent post Dan, spot on!;)

Eddie

[KJoFan]

Ok so basically what you all are telling me is that I should stick to my tap, hard, high pH and all. :D

My secondary question is what is an ok nitrate reading? I'm good to go with no ammonia or nitrites, my nitrates tend to be around 10 or less, is this acceptable or should I be aiming lower?

I enjoy how my questions make me seem as if I know little or nothing about how to raise discus, which isn't the case. I just honestly haven't been so anal about it before now. Not much testing etc. But since I'm aiming high with these guys I figure a bit of testing is in order. ;)

[shawnhu]

Karen,

It's understandable to get a little "carried away" sometimes, I think it's the nature of all hobbyists. I'm sure we've all gone through those moments and have had our lab coats on.

Consistancy is the key word in this thread, so go ahead and use that tap water with a water conditioner to remove chlorine and all the other nasties.

Nitrate level of under 10 is fine, most shoot for under 20-40. Plants will remove Nitrate rather quickly, often times showing 0 in tests.

You'll probably want to do frequent water changes, despite the readings. TDS can creep up on you, and usually won't be a problem until it's time for a water change. At that point, you risk(here's that word again), consistancy in dropping the TDS too much.

Hope that helps!

Shawn

[KJoFan]

Shawn,

I am working my way back to just tap water now, the fish don't seem to mind either way. I actually don't use water conditioner, I only have chlorine in my water and with 24 hours of aging and aerating I'm good to know. I've always done it this way and not had any problems.

My nitrates tend to hover around 5-10, I will be aiming to stay at 5 or below though once everything settles a bit more. I shouldn't have any trouble achieving that, especially with the large volume of water they reside in.

I do daily water changes as it is now, of probably 65-75%. Once I get back to tap I'm not sure my TDS could creep up much higher. ;) On a more serious note though, I checked TDS right after water change the other night and again right before the next water change and TDS hadn't changed but maybe one or two ppm up. I'm thinking that again, once the tank ages and settles a bit more daily w/c's either won't be necessary or more likely I will just do a smaller percentage. I think that will work out, but we'll see.

I found my GH test kit and attempted to test it the other night but I'm lacking instructions and how i thought I was supposed to do it must not have been the way, as I thought I was only meant to put drops in, count them and that was my degrees of hardness. Well I got up to 47 drops with no color change so I gave up on that for now. I'll have to hunt up some instructions on that I think.

So that's where I stand right now. The main thing is that even after two weeks I'm noticing some growth on the fish, they seem happy, eat like they're meant to at every feeding and just seem to be doing great in general.

I appreciate all your input and conversation with me on this Shawn!

[rbarn]

Check out my whole house water filter thread for cleaning tank water cheap
and efficiently.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=71886

Dan at Gulf Coast Discus gave me same info that was posted in this thread also.
His discus thrive in our moderately hard water.

Every local LFS and Aq. Service company I have talked has said same also.
"Dont jack with what comes out of the tap or you'll be endlessly chasing water parameters "

[Elite Aquaria]

The main thing is that even after two weeks I'm noticing some growth on the fish, they seem happy, eat like they're meant to at every feeding and just seem to be doing great in general.


Karen, I am glad they are doing great for you...Those fish will grow from week to week...so far I have noticed a change in size weekly here at my hatchery. Not sure how many more months they will continue at this pace. I suspect for at least another 5 months at a min.

Keep up the good work and show us some updated pics this weekend...;)

[KJoFan]

Although slightly unrelated I'm going to move this conversation to this thread, as it's more appropriate here and might get a bit more traffic.



After the discussion in the water works section about my water I opted to switch them back to straight tap. I had a little issue for a few days with some slight ammonia readings, .25 or less. Nitrites never registered but the ammoinia is gone now, so I don't know what that was. My nitrates have been higher than I'd like, usually 20 by water change time and 10 or less after. I change about 65-70% of the water daily. I could do more but it'd take some rearrangement of my setup to do it.

But aside from all that, they just seem a bit off in general. Not all of them and not all the time, but there's always a few hiders. Not too interested in eating, things like that. Their color and everything is fine but they aren't as happy and active as I'd like them to be. I don't know if it's just the messing with the water I've done or what. They've been back on straight tap for several days now, probably 4+.

Is this just another adjustment I need to ride out or what else could I be looking for for issues? I thought maybe it was the ammonia bothering them, but that's gone now and there's been no change in their behavior.

The only thing I can possibly think of is that I don't treat my water with anything, I let the chlorine just gas off over 24 hours, could there be something else present that's bothering them?


Karen,

Your water might also be treated with chloramines, which will NOT gas off no matter how long you leave the water sitting. If these are in the water they will for sure be bothering your fish. I would recommend either buying a water conditioning product or buying a tap water filter to get those out. I use one that I found on a breeders website, PM me and I'll give you more info if you want it. Hope this helps,

Kevin


Thanks for the suggestions Kevin. However, I do know that chloramines are not present in my tap water, at least according to the report put out by my city.

I do know there is some copper present in the water, but I don't know enough about it all to know if things like those heavy metals can have ill effects on the fish or not.

ETA: Upon observance while feeding just now, 3 out of 4 Intermediates are eating well and aggressively, the fourth is eating just not with such enthusiasm. And 2 out of 8 BK's are eating, the rest show no interest. One is sporting a stringy poo. But it's mostly clear, with just a few small bits of white in it, I'm guessing is probably just stomach lining from not eating, since it is mostly clear. :(

[Ardan]

The only thing I can possibly think of is that I don't treat my water with anything, I let the chlorine just gas off over 24 hours
[QUOTE][ do know there is some copper present in the water, but I don't know enough about it all to know if things like those heavy metals can have ill effects on the fish or not./QUOTE]

It wouldn't hurt to use a dechlor that also binds heavy metals just to be on the safe side.:)

hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

Hey Ardan,

I am thinking I will pick up some Prime and see if that helps. They do tend to breath somewhat rapidly I guess so maybe it is a heavy metal issue. Seems odd I haven't had the issue before that I've noticed, but maybe this copper issue is also new to my tap water. It was reported in the 2008 report put out by my city, perhaps I'll look back at past ones to see if it was also present then.

Crossing my fingers a couple shots of Prime will turn this little situation around. :)

[KJoFan]

Ok, I picked up some fresh test kits tonight and did a little testing. I might have hit on something that could be an issue, although maybe not too. My pH out of tap is 8.0-8.5 (it was too close to really call), my pH in my storage barrels and in tank is 9.5.

Now, is this an issue? I think on one hand it could be simply because that's insanely high. But on the other, they don't experience a pH swing at all. Aged water that goes in the tank is 9.5 as is the water in the tank right before water change time.

Other parameters were:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate ~5
pH 9.5
Iron 0
Copper 0 (although I've read copper tests are inaccurate)
Temp 89 (creeping up for some reason, I'll adjust it back down to 87 or so probably)

Thoughts anyone?

[Eddie]

Ok, I picked up some fresh test kits tonight and did a little testing. I might have hit on something that could be an issue, although maybe not too. My pH out of tap is 8.0-8.5 (it was too close to really call), my pH in my storage barrels and in tank is 9.5.

Now, is this an issue? I think on one hand it could be simply because that's insanely high. But on the other, they don't experience a pH swing at all. Aged water that goes in the tank is 9.5 as is the water in the tank right before water change time.

Other parameters were:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate ~5
pH 9.5
Iron 0
Copper 0 (although I've read copper tests are inaccurate)
Temp 89 (creeping up for some reason, I'll adjust it back down to 87 or so probably)

Thoughts anyone?

9.5 is high, super high IMO. I have no experience in dropping PH but you should be able to get alot info from other members.

Sorry I cannot be of any help, :o

Eddie

[KJoFan]

I agree Eddie, that's super high. It used to stay steady around 8.2 or so, which is still high but...

I don't know why it's so high, crazy!

I'd feel ill too if I were swimming in that. :)

[shawnhu]

A high PH like that usually means there's also a high KH and GH reading as well. I'd be willing to bet that the TDS is also very high. Although domestic fish have adapted to live in a variety of conditions, I believe this may be some-what of an extreme. Have you considered doing some GH,KH, TDS testing? It may reveal that a RO system may be in order.

Let us know what you find.

[KJoFan]

I haven't tested GH and KH, I know it's pretty high though from past testings. And I know my TDS is high, as in 400+ ppm.

This is why a week ago or less I was saying I would switch them to RO and was told by everyone not to, that tap is better...

I believe Shawn you were in on that conversation if I remember correctly?

I'm thinking since my pH has gone up a full point or more from previous years, something needs to be done.

The question is, if I go to RO...do I need to supplement with minerals?

[KJoFan]

Upon further reading on this site, it seems like I could just do an RO/tap mix to get my minerals still.

[Roxanne]

...if your water is increasing in ph in the tank, then you do a water change, with lesser ph water, it is subjecting the fish to ph fluctuations...

Seeing as you said you want to play with it a bit....

First, test kits shouldn't be too old or they aren't reliable;)...or, members might have suggestions for reliable meters...

It is true that fooling around with your water chem can cause more problems than it can solve, BUT, that's only if you fool around with it in the tank wth fish in it...if you want to work your water out for our own reasons, you can do it in a few buckets (or vessels)with no fish...

First bucket, straight tap water, measure all params gh, kh, ph, chlorine, when first filled, then test 12 hourly for changes for a week...(can you test your source water for nitrates also? your high mineral content may account for the excess)

A Second bucket, ro water, test as above

A Third bucket, ro and aerated tap mix, test as above

You have all these buckets going at the same time.

Once you know what your water stability is like you can gauge your mix...though you will have to check your source water for changes which would throw your mix out..

The third bucket's readings will help you adjust your mix...which you do in another bucket...or ten lolol

When you think you have your mix right, then slowly introduce the lower ph water over time so they can adjust to it without freaking out...but you would have to monitor it constantly....

Another option is to just buffer down your aged tap...because your water is hard, (liquid concrete as G would say)you shouldn't get a bounce...but, you still have to match the mix water to the tank during water changes..and do it slowly so you don't shock them..and if you have copper you will need a conditioner...BTW how do you know you have copper in your water?

It's probably the main reason people will advise you to not mess with your water because it is tedious, time consuming and usually not necessary for general purposes, but if you are a mad scientist type like me, there's nothing wrong with experimenting...as long as we aren't doing it with the fish lolol

Rox:)

[KJoFan]

...if your water is increasing in ph in the tank, then you do a water change, with lesser ph water, it is subjecting the fish to ph fluctuations...

If I were water changing with tap and not aging it, then yes I would be subjecting the fish to a pH fluctuation each time. However, I do age my water and the pH is the same as the tank pH at water change time. (meaning, pH in 24 hour aged water is at 9.5, pH in tank water just before water change is at 9.5...leading me to believe they do not experience a swing at water change time.)


First, test kits shouldn't be too old or they aren't reliable;)...or, members might have suggestions for reliable meters...

I picked up fresh test kits last night, which is where my most recent test readings came from. My TDS readings come from a meter, so should be fairly reliable there. :)


BTW how do you know you have copper in your water?

According to the 2008 drinking water report my city put out, something like 4 out of 20 of their samples reported higher than allowable levels of copper. (allowable is 1.3 ppm, the 90% level of their tests were 1.38) So from that, I assume there is or at least could be copper present in my drinking water. Because of this, I started using a conditioner to hopefully help take care of that. I did not use one before because my city only uses chlorine in their water, not chloramines, so with the aging I figured it was safe and hadn't had any problems previously.




It's probably the main reason people will advise you to not mess with your water because it is tedious, time consuming and usually not necessary for general purposes, but if you are a mad scientist type like me, there's nothing wrong with experimenting...as long as we aren't doing it with the fish lolol

I really would like to not have to do all this messing, mixing crap, but if it makes the fish happier then I will. :D I haven't fully decided if I will try to mix or not, I'm going to wait them out a little and see if they come around, they aren't on death's door or anything, just don't seem quite right with the world. But I certainly appreciate your post Rox, and it gives me a great place to start experimenting if I choose to do so.

I can/will test my tap for nitrates as well. I'm not sure though I quite followed you on the excess/mineral part of your post regarding nitrates...can you dumb it down for me? :D

[KJoFan]

On a side note...does anyone think that if it really were a big water issue with these guys, they'd all be affected? They all act a bit scared/skittish, but several of them still eat with gusto, while others not at all....

However, it is mostly the Red Spotteds that eat best, not the BK's...

[Eddie]

One thing to think about is...what impact is the water having on the fish at a slow pace, periodically. Over time, the undue stress on the fish will dwindle them down and ultimately they may become ill. :(

Eddie

[KJoFan]

Eddie, you mean this hard high pH water? What effect will it have if I continue to use it? If that's what you mean, that's exactly what I'm concerned about. Even if they seem to bounce back, which they haven't as yet....I feel like I will not get them to their highest potential with this.

If that's not your train of thought then please clarify. :D

[Roxanne]

Hi Karen:)

Here's an excellent read with posts by Paul and Graham on water buffering and high ph...


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=66997&highlight=mineral+hard+water

HTH

Rox

[Roxanne]

This quote from this thread....

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=70999&highlight=mineral+hard+water


I don't remember how hard Florida water is, but when you use an ion exchange softner you exchange sodium ions for the calcium and magnesium. You will see no change in TDS as you are not removing you are trading. I have hard water in the 320 ppm (620 mS) range. I did an experiment raising some lfs discus in a 50-50 mix of tap and water softner water. This was by no means scientific. It was done twice with fish from different suppliers and is compared to just using 100% hard tap water for all discus except breeders. While the fish were not stunted they did not grow large(4"-5"). They grew slower than my other fish except some in the tap water that have stunted in the past. 3 of 8 developed fin notches from scarring and not healing properly. This had not happened before. There are some here with much harder water who have not been able to use water softner water at all.

...:confused:....this seems to suggest what you were observing about growing out discus to a certain size..further discussion would be good

Rox

[Ardan]

On a side note...does anyone think that if it really were a big water issue with these guys, they'd all be affected?

I think this is a fair statement that I agree with, although each fish is different.
1st I would try just separating the fish and see how they do. If no change then
It may be that you separate out the problem fish and get them adjusted with an RO/tap water mix, then slowly acclimate them to the tap water only.
Maybe try 25%RO/ 75% tap, or 50/50. You are aging water already so its just a matter of mixing in the RO.
It is good advice to experiment with the buckets first.

hth
Ardan

[Roxanne]

Hi Ardan:), do you think/know if the higher ranges ph affect growth?

Roxanne

[KJoFan]

Yes, Ardan and anyone else, I'd like your input/opinions on this question. This was my original thought, which started all this water chemistry talk. But everyone kept telling me not to mess with my tap water. And now that people know a bit more about it, they say mix or RO.

I think no one knows exactly what to do, including me! :D

I do think I will be mixing though, it seems the thing to do given the info I've gathered so far, as well as my past experience with the lack of good growth. Plus, the fish just seemed perkier when in the softer water.

But as I said, I'm still interested in people's opinions on this!

[Roxanne]

Karen,

Hard water will not reduce the rate at which your fish will grow. The main factors are genetics, food, husbandry and health. The main issue with discus water is to keep it clean and the water parameters consistent...no PH and temperature swings...

My tap water is around 175 TDS and I wish that it was harder water for grow outs since young discus need more minerals in the water to grow...go figure.

Dan is a breeder and he wants hard water for grow outs...:confused:

[KJoFan]

Well I agree, you need somewhat hard water for growouts, for the minerals. But I think my water is on the extreme end of that. Which to me can't be good for much of anything. :)

[Roxanne]

.. Plus, the fish just seemed perkier when in the softer water.

Karen did you get/can you get all the readings for the "perky" water :D...kh, gh, ph?...we have something to compare to then..

[KJoFan]

I haven't done them, I want to pick up fresh GH and KH test kits before I do, as mine are a bit old. I will be out today so hopefully I can pick some up somewhere. When I do, I'll get the results posted for the whole gamut of water choices! :D

[shawnhu]

I haven't tested GH and KH, I know it's pretty high though from past testings. And I know my TDS is high, as in 400+ ppm.

This is why a week ago or less I was saying I would switch them to RO and was told by everyone not to, that tap is better...

I believe Shawn you were in on that conversation if I remember correctly?

I'm thinking since my pH has gone up a full point or more from previous years, something needs to be done.

The question is, if I go to RO...do I need to supplement with minerals?

Karen,

I most likely was, but PH readings as high as yours, may need to do something. Take for example, my tap water's readings are 0-1 GH,KH and 7 PH. I can't just use straight tap water, I'll have to add minerals back in. You, I believe, is the other extreme case, where your PH is pretty high, and may indicate a high GH, KH, and TDS. If this is the case, I would try to lower those down a bit, don't have to be too much, but at least down to the norm.

Each case is different, but a general thought on RO systems and tap water conditioning is not necessary.

Shawn

[Ardan]

Hi,
I do not know if the high ph affects growth. However not many people have ph as high as yours.
I am basing the mixing on your past experience.(fish seem to do better with a mix for you) Also your ph is very high. I have seen people in the 8.0 to 8.5 have no trouble, but yours is 9.5.?
I wonder why it is so high? What is in the water there? It will be interesting to see your GH and KH.
I also think you may be able to eventually get them adjusted to tap water as the other discus are doing ok.
If the water is changed and still having trouble with the discus, then look more closely at the discus, but first try good stable, good parameter water.

hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

When I figure my mix out, how exactly do I go about mixing it? Meaning, I'd probably want to mix before it goes into the tank, so how do I really go about doing that to make sure I get the right mix everytime?

[Eddie]

When I figure my mix out, how exactly do I go about mixing it? Meaning, I'd probably want to mix before it goes into the tank, so how do I really go about doing that to make sure I get the right mix everytime?

Just play with different amounts in a large storage container that you plan to use for your daily water changes. Something like a 55 gallon barrel for the mix. Test different combinations of RO/Tap to gauge the amount needed from each. Then you can fill the storage barrel with that ratio every time.

Eddie

[KJoFan]

Yeah I get that part, the part I don't get is how to get the exact mix into the barrel, know what I mean? :D

ETA: I probably wouldn't be using the entire barrel full at every change, so therefore when I go to refill with the mix it will be off, no?

[Eddie]

Yeah I get that part, the part I don't get is how to get the exact mix into the barrel, know what I mean? :D

ETA: I probably wouldn't be using the entire barrel full at every change, so therefore when I go to refill with the mix it will be off, no?

You just have to experiment, add 1/3 RO then 2/3 tap. If it isn't good, try 2/3 RO and 1/3 tap. What do you mean you are not sure about exact amounts. Mark the container, use a suction cup or something to stick inside the barrel. It is not an exact science, just estimate 1/3 or 2/3 or 1/4. What are looking for as far as EXACT. :confused:

Eddie

[KJoFan]

I just mean, I get how to come up with a mixture. I have no problem with that. But to refill my barrel(s) again, I guess I'm not sure how you go about it. Right now I have float valves on my storage barrels, the water runs until they're full. I won't be able to do that if I mix. I will have to manually mix my water. So basically what you are telling me is that I will have to take buckets and fill my barrel with RO and/or tap until I have the right amount of each? Sounds like a heck of a lot of unnecessary work to me.

[Eddie]

I just mean, I get how to come up with a mixture. I have no problem with that. But to refill my barrel(s) again, I guess I'm not sure how you go about it. Right now I have float valves on my storage barrels, the water runs until they're full. I won't be able to do that if I mix. I will have to manually mix my water. So basically what you are telling me is that I will have to take buckets and fill my barrel with RO and/or tap until I have the right amount of each? Sounds like a heck of a lot of unnecessary work to me.

Well you could plumb the barrel from 2 sources, one from the tap and one from the RO barrel. You are looking to fully automate the filling of the barrel from RO and tap. This should have been your question initially. LOL :o

I don't have a clue on that one but I am sure there are some fully automated kings in the room. You may need to start a new thread with this as the topic.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help, good luck.

Eddie

[KJoFan]

It was my question initially. ;) It just wasn't clear enough apparently.

And yes, I will more than likely start a new thread when I want to get into the nitty gritty of it. Just figured I'd throw it out there now to see what I got.

Thanks for your help and input, it's much apprecaited Eddie! :)

[Eddie]

Karen,

One question, what is the PH of your water in the tank just before you do a water change?

Thanks

Eddie

[Ardan]

Hi Karen,
I have my RO booster pump on a timer and have the time figured out fairly well to fill my barrel either full or 3/4 full with RO, depending on what I want. Then I just add hot water for the rest and to bring the temp up.
hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

Karen,

One question, what is the PH of your water in the tank just before you do a water change?

Thanks

Eddie

Quick rundown on my pH readings:

aged tap water: 9.5
Tank water pre water change: 9.5
RO water: 6.0-6.5

Quick rundown of TDS readings:

aged tap water: 420-430 ppm
Tank water pre water change: 420-430
RO water: 35

The lowest I can get my RO water with all new filters/membranes usually is around 5 or less. My RO isn't pure, but it's ok, I don't need it at 0 TDS. I'd be buying a new membrane all the time if I wanted to keep it at or near 0.

Some quick experimenting I've done in buckets:

1:1 RO/tap mix yields:

TDS: 260
pH: 8.5

2:1 RO/tap mix yields:

TDS: 190
pH: 7.5-8


Old readings of KH and GH from about 2 years ago, and I don't anticipate much has changed in this regard since then:

GH: 30 degrees
KH: 15 degrees

[KJoFan]

Hi Karen,
I have my RO booster pump on a timer and have the time figured out fairly well to fill my barrel either full or 3/4 full with RO, depending on what I want. Then I just add hot water for the rest and to bring the temp up.
hth
Ardan

Thank you Ardan! That at least gives me an idea of where to start to get this set up. I will have to figure out how long it takes my RO booster pump to fill to my desired amount of RO. Yay!

[Ardan]

From your experimentations the 1:1 ratio looks suitable.
The 2:1 is what my water is.

I would start with the 1:1 and see if it helps the fish:)
Your KH is very high.
hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

From your experimentations the 1:1 ratio looks suitable.
The 2:1 is what my water is.

I would start with the 1:1 and see if it helps the fish:)
Your KH is very high.
hth
Ardan

What don't I have that is high in regards to my water? :D High success rate. lol

[Chad Hughes]

Karen,

Dan has some good inputs here. Typically the only reason to adjust water is for breeding but I am in a smiliar situation as you. My TDS is well over 500 ppm with a Ph of 8+. Since I already make RO water for pairs, I do thin out the liquid rock that I have in my tap with a bit of RO water. I typically use 200 ppm water. It ranges between 150 and 200 ppm. I don't watch the Ph. I let it fall where it may. One thing I do check is the KH to ensure I don't encounter any Ph swings. A dKH of 4 will serve you well.

Hope that helps!

Best wishes!

Your water is just like mine in San Diego. VERY HARD! My Ph is in the high 8's and the TDS is nearly 600. That's why I cut it with RO to the above parameters. Works great! I use 90 gallons of RO mixed with 30 gallons tap.

[KJoFan]

Your water is just like mine in San Diego. VERY HARD! My Ph is in the high 8's and the TDS is nearly 600. That's why I cut it with RO to the above parameters. Works great! I use 90 gallons of RO mixed with 30 gallons tap.

I've been going with a 1:1 RO/tap ratio for now. That puts my TDS in the mid to upper 200's. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than going with a 2:1 ratio which would give me a TDS more like yours, 190-200. Thoughts on that? Or do you think it doesn't really matter a whole lot?

Also, how do you get your mix? I'm thinking I will plumb 4 55g barrels together. I would most likely plumb them at the bottom with ball valves for the ability to separate as desired, and then also plumb them together towards the top, probably again with ball valves between them. Plumb an in-line pump for circulation/mixing, such that all 4 barrels will mix and hopefully be an equal mix. I'm not sure that's too easy to follow without pictures to express what I mean but if you get the gist, do you think it will work?

[Chad Hughes]

I've been going with a 1:1 RO/tap ratio for now. That puts my TDS in the mid to upper 200's. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than going with a 2:1 ratio which would give me a TDS more like yours, 190-200. Thoughts on that? Or do you think it doesn't really matter a whole lot?

Also, how do you get your mix? I'm thinking I will plumb 4 55g barrels together. I would most likely plumb them at the bottom with ball valves for the ability to separate as desired, and then also plumb them together towards the top, probably again with ball valves between them. Plumb an in-line pump for circulation/mixing, such that all 4 barrels will mix and hopefully be an equal mix. I'm not sure that's too easy to follow without pictures to express what I mean but if you get the gist, do you think it will work?

Karen,

I get what you are talking about. Let me describe my system first and then try and take a stab at what might work for you.

I have the the luxury of having large storage containers. The one that I use most is a 120 gallon plastic tank. It has gallon graduations on the side of it so that makes it super easy to read the levels in the tank. It's white plastic, so I can tell where the level is.

My RO unit has automatic shutoff. when the water level reaches the float, it closes the valve and the RO unit shuts down. That being said, I put about 20 gallons of filtered tap water in the tank first. Once that is done, I let the RO system fill the rest of the tank. There are instances when I do not use all of the water in the tank. For instance, if I use just 50 gallons I add back about 5 to 10 gallons of tap and then let the RO until fill the rest.

You can do the same thing with your multiple container system. I would do like you said. Plumb all the tanks together at the bottom. This will allow the barrels to fill at the same time. With ball valves installed between the tanks, you could isolate the tanks if desired. For circulation, I would plumb along the top and install a pump in one of the end tanks. The pump would pump water from one end to the other and would constantly mix the water.

I use a spa pump in my tank. It's a 6' tall tank so my pump pumps from bottom to top mixing the tap with the RO. I also run the pump when I add conditioner for mixing purposes. I have is set up so that I can turn two valves and divert the flow of the pump from barrel circulation to tank filling through a garden hose. This works great!

I heat the tank with a 1000 watt bucket heater that you can get from just about any farm supply or on-line store. I use a temperature controller to keep the tank at 86 degrees.

Your biggest obstacle would be marking the barrels with graduations so that you know how much tap water to add before you allow the RO to completely fill the tanks. HTH!

Best wishes!

[KJoFan]

My thought is, one way to get around that obstacle of marking the barrels is to fill two barrels with RO and two barrels with tap, after fill is complete across the board, fire up the pump for mixing. Does that sound reasonable? Would probably be easier to get a container such as you have just for ease of everything, but at the moment this is what I have to work with.

And as a side note, I have a small older RO unit I'm not using. I was wondering if it would work to set that up, minus a membrane, with two carbon filters and run my tap through that? I don't think it would restrict the flow too much because it would not be forced through a membrane.

Thanks for helping me out with this Chad!

[Chad Hughes]

My thought is, one way to get around that obstacle of marking the barrels is to fill two barrels with RO and two barrels with tap, after fill is complete across the board, fire up the pump for mixing. Does that sound reasonable? Would probably be easier to get a container such as you have just for ease of everything, but at the moment this is what I have to work with.

And as a side note, I have a small older RO unit I'm not using. I was wondering if it would work to set that up, minus a membrane, with two carbon filters and run my tap through that? I don't think it would restrict the flow too much because it would not be forced through a membrane.

Thanks for helping me out with this Chad!

Karen,

That sounds like it would work perfectly! I like your idea for the old RO unit also. That would give you twice the carbon filtering power. I use a carbon block "add-on" filter for my tap. It's a single canister designed to be added on to an RO system. I don't use a sediment filter with the carbon block filter.

Best wishes!

[KJoFan]

Thanks Chad! I don't think I'd use a sediment filter with the carbon/tap setup either. Doesn't mean I shouldn't but...oh well. :) The sediment filter on my main RO unit needs changed monthly or more often, it turns a lovely shade of orange very fast! :)

[Chad Hughes]

You bet Karen! I'm about to change my whole lot of filters. It's been a year and 3 months since they've been changed. My DI filter is shot and I'm sure the carbon is too. I produce about 10,000 gallons of filtered water annually.

[KJoFan]

I was wondering about that...how often I will need to change my carbon filters. I figure if I can keep on top of the sediment filter I won't need to change the others and/or membrane as often. Then again, I dont' backflush my system as often as I should. :o

[Chad Hughes]

I watch the DI reactor for color and keep an eye on the TDS output of the system. My DI unit is pretty dark now and the TDS out of the RO system is about 24 ppm. I figure it's time to change them. I'd say every year to year and a half is a good average. It all depends on how much water you are producing really. Both the sediment and the carbon block filter impact the membrane the most. Sediment for obvious reasons and the carbon protects the membrane from chlorine exposure.

[KJoFan]

Ok I finally got my revamped water storage system partially up and running. I plumbed 4 barrels together at the bottom and installed ball valves such that I could isolate an individual barrel if wanted. The first two barrels are filled with straight RO. The last two barrels filled with carbon filtered tap. I keep the green ball valves open so that water will equally fill/drain those two sets. The red valve in the middle is opened each morning to allow for mixing of the RO and tap.

I plumbed the first and last barrels together at the top to allow for circulation, which is achieved by a submerged pump attached to the pipe at the top of the last barrel. This serves very well to mix the first and last barrels.

My problem is that the middle two barrels do not mix. I am thinking I will need to plumb the middle two barrels into the top line as well. Will it work to do that and leave the one and only pump in the last barrel as it is or will I need another pump to mix the middle two barrels?

Or would it work to move the pump to the bottom line instead of the top for mixing without needing to plumb the middle two barrels in?

[Ardan]

In order to mix the middle 2, you could put a valve above each barrel to the top line. You will need to adjust the valves to get water to go into all of the three barrels without the pump. Even the 3rd barrel will require a valve off the top line so as to regulate flow into the other barrels. Water will flow where there is "least resistance" thus the need for valves at all 3 barrels.
Keep all bottom valves open also to avoid overfilling one barrel.
You will have to experiment with the valves and how much to open each one
hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

I think I'm confused Ardan...:confused:

[Ardan]

Hi,
You need water going into the top of the three barrels without the pump and coming out the bottom of the three and going back to the one with the pump.
another way to say it: the one with the pump has in at the bottom and out at the top (from the pump) the other three need in at the top and out at the bottom.
hope this is more clear


the valves at the top are needed to regulate the flow into each one. the bottom must always be open back to the pump.
(unless I misunderstand your setup) right now the middle 2 barrels dont' have a way for water to go in and out at the same time, there is just one pipe in/out?
Ardan

[Chad Hughes]

Karen,

You need to create flow through the containers, not around them. Looks like water is bypassing the middle two tanks since the are not in series with the other two. They're in parallel. Does that make any sense? I know its confusing.

Based on your picture, you could do the following.....

Turn tank #1 & #2 towards each other in a manner that the bulkhead fittings are facing each other.

Do the same for tank #3 and #4.

Put another bulkhead fitting 180 degrees out from the first bulkhead fitting on tank #2 and tank #3.

Connect all of the bulkhead fittings with PVC. This will creat flow through the tanks. Water is forced to actually travel through each tank rather than through the PVC back to the originating tank.

If you really wanted to get a good mix of water, duplicate the plumbing design described above on the top of the barrels to match the bottom. Install ball valves in between the barrels along the top and bottom plumbing runs. By closing every other valve along the top and the bottom (alternating), you could force the water to come in to the top of tank four, draining in to the bottom of tank 3, draining in to the top of tank 2, and finally draining in to the bottom of tank 1. The cycle repeats as long as the pump is running.

Now, have I completely confused you? Your tanks look fantastic!

Best wishes!

[KJoFan]

Yes, just one pipe in/out of the middle two barrels.

I think I follow you better now. :)

So what you are saying is that yes I need to plumb the middle two barrels into the top line. And add valves for them as well?

[Ardan]

So what you are saying is that yes I need to plumb the middle two barrels into the top line. And add valves for them as well?

yes:)

or you can do as Chad says. That works also. (I think he posted while you were posting:))

hth
Ardan

[KJoFan]

Yes he did, and I'm still mulling over his suggestion. :D

[KJoFan]

If you really wanted to get a good mix of water, duplicate the plumbing design described above on the top of the barrels to match the bottom. Install ball valves in between the barrels along the top and bottom plumbing runs. By closing every other valve along the top and the bottom (alternating), you could force the water to come in to the top of tank four, draining in to the bottom of tank 3, draining in to the top of tank 2, and finally draining in to the bottom of tank 1. The cycle repeats as long as the pump is running.

I follow what you are suggesting Chad, however I do have a question. What prevents the water from flowing back into barrel 4 from barrel 3, rather than on to barrel 2?

[KJoFan]

I think it'd probably be easier to just plumb the middle two barrels into the top line as well, that way I won't need to necessarily change what's already been done to this point.

[Chad Hughes]

I follow what you are suggesting Chad, however I do have a question. What prevents the water from flowing back into barrel 4 from barrel 3, rather than on to barrel 2?

The flow created from the pump will create a current in the tanks. As water enter barrel 4 from barrel one, it has not choice but to continue from barrel 3 to 2 to 1. The key to creating the one way action is having only one way in to the tank and one way out in the direction in which you want the water to flow.


I think it'd probably be easier to just plumb the middle two barrels into the top line as well, that way I won't need to necessarily change what's already been done to this point.

That would work as well!

Best wishes!