Ammonia spike - beneficial bacteria?

[hope]

I have read about this but just want to check before I do anything -

I have an established 75 gallon BB tank with 7 10-month old juvies. I admit I haven't checked water parameters in at least 3 weeks. Normal routine is heavy feeding (4-5 x/day) and daily 75% w/c. Water is aged in a barrel overnight to 1 full day (tap water has extremely high ph), airstone & heater in barrel.

I use a 350 magnum in the tank with a prefilter.

Last night 9pm the discus just did not look good - a bit dark and not super hungry even though their last meal was at 4pm. I had not changed the water yet, so I did. They seemed much happier but I noticed they did not want to go by the filter so I cleaned the filter too.

Before changing the water I tested it - and got these results:

nitrate 0
nitrite 0
ph 6.0 (could be lower - test only goes that low)
amminia 2.5

After water change the discus were "back to normal". I tested water again this morning and it's already starting to show ammonia.

From threads I've read, sounds like it could be my ph is too low now, and I killed the beneficial bacteria? If so, I can add 1/2 barrel aged and 1/2 tap water (I'd just fill the barrel right before w/c). I think that would ensure the ph (I will test), but I just want to be sure I am going down the right path. I'll do daily water tests until I stabilize it. Does this sound right or should I have more concerns about the ammonia and what could be causing it? I truely don't know how long the ammonia was getting up there but I can only base it on my discus' behavior and looks - although 9pm is kindof late for my w/c, so if I had a problem I might not have known it.

Thanks for your advice - I prefer to get help before doing any treatments!

[Ardan]

How did you clean the filter? It is best to clean it in used aquarium water as tap water with chlorine will kill the good bacteria.

What do you use for dechlor for the tap water?
Do you have chloramines in the tap water?

you are right I think that the ammonia problem needs to be located and corrected
hth
Ardan

[Ardan]

for now increase wc's, daily at least 50% with stable ph water (age it with heavy aeration)

the ammonia should be non toxic at that ph, but that is a lg ph swing

did this problem just start after 10 months of this aging method?
hth
Ardan

[hope]

Thanks for the quick reply! I'll stay on track then and work on where this ammonia is coming from - bring up the ph, hope the tank cycles again quickly, keep up w/c until it stabilizes.

Arden, I forgot to mention that I have to age the tap water because the tap ph is very high - a call to the water dept confirmed that they add something because of problems with old pipes that brings the ph up to over 8, so I have been aging the water since starting with discus last September. Also - I always add dechlor to the barrel before changing water - I currently use a product from jehmco - aquascience ultimate.

I usually clean the prefilter in aquarium water, but I inadvertently cleaned the filter with tap last night. Well, I'm sure I killed bb that was left in there. :angry:

I still do daily w/c, seems it's been suggested until they are a year old I think.

What has changed??!! I'll have to think this one out.... that's the problem with not doing regular water tests - you just can't know for sure when it started. Oh lessons, lessons, lessons - why do I always have to learn the hard way??!! The rebel in me....

[Ardan]

but I inadvertently cleaned the filter with tap last night
This still wouldn't explain why there was ammonia before cleaning the filter.

Also if the city adds things to bring the ph up, why does it then go down? Is the city on a well?

Possibly the test kits are bad?
Possibly the water conditioner from Jehmco is similar to prime and is giving a false positive for ammonia?

a lot of things to look at, but daily wc's and doing what has been working for 10 months should be good.

What is the kh and gh? these will help to see why the ph fluctuates.

hth
Ardan

[hope]

The reason the ph goes down is because I age it with an airstone and heater (or at least that's why I always assumed it went down). I might pickup a new kit - it is only 10 months old but if I can't find a reason for the water issues I will. I am also going to test the ph from the tap - maybe they changed something again. I don't have a kh or gh test kit but I will get one thsi week when I go to the fish store. Can you explain about the ammonia readings with prime? Thanks!

[Roxanne]

Sounds like you probably have soft water... how long does it take for the ph to drop in your tank, or does it drop in your aging barrell?

BTW...here's a link about using prime

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=61003


....also, if you go raising the ph, the ammonia will become it's toxic form, and you will get a nitrite spike....at a ph of 6, bacteria growth is very slow, when you raise the ph to over 7-7.2, the bb's have a growth surge and cause a nitrite spike..if this happens makes sure you have some salt on hand.

every time the ph goes down, it will irritate the fish...explains why they look better after a WC...it must be falling rather fast...

Roxanne:)

[shawnhu]

Hope,

Looks like you're going to need to take a few tests.

Test 1:
Ammonia, PH, KH level of Tap water.

Test2:
PH of aged water

Test3:
Ammonia, PH, KH of tank water after 24 hrs of water change.

Are you running anything that would lower the PH? Driftwood, peat, chemicals?

Shawn

[rbarn]

I'm lost Ph should go up with water aging ........ not down
As you degas Co2 it will raise PH, not lower it.

[Roxanne]

..depends on your carbonate hardness...really soft water has low kh so is prone to ph crash(down)....when the kh is used up, the ph goes down...you dig?:)

Rox

[kpotter2]

If your ph is low the Ammonia will not harm the Fish,but when it rises it could become toxic very quickly to your fish. You can use prime when bring it up untill Bacteria start to reactivate or reproduce. There is still ammonia in the water with low ph,but it is the less toxic kind called Ammonium I believe its called. It is what the Bactria converts the bad ammonia too. Keeping the Ph low is not killing you Bacteria per say,but puts it in a less active stasis and they slowly die from lack of food (Ammonia).There are keep in mind different kinds of Bactria keeping you tank balanced.

What is your TDS or Hardness? If you water is to soft like TDS of 50 or less this can become a bacteria killer. I have had this happen in one of my 55gal tanks where I was changing with pure R/O and not adding any tap water or R/O Right to harden the water. R/O or distilled water is dead water. You have to keep you water changes up to keep fish in low TDS. Daily w/c of 75% I would say to take out the bad stuff. it take a higher amount of ammonia in low ph to become toxic to most fish. This depends on your fish,but Discus can take very little ammonia to become stressed at 2.5,but would be ok at 1.0 or 1.5. When in most cases at a ph of 7.0 they would be died or dieing. This is why you seen them less active and not eat as much at a level of 2.5 or so. Lower TDS makes it harder to have hi PH also. So you can get in to a very vicious cycle getting below neutral Ph and a netral TDS around 250ppm. I have had tanks as low as 4.8 to 5.0 and had no ammonia problems that kill my fish,but that is with keeping up a daily water change of 75-90%. If you read on the web about PH and Ammonia you will learn a lot. I do agree with above that ph should go up not down with aging. If you keep you water in a fish tank at ph of 7.0 and tds at 250ppm that is a balance tank. If you waver from this it takes more of an effort by the fish keeper to keep it balanced,by water changes.

Hope this help a little

Kyle

[shawnhu]

..depends on your carbonate hardness...really soft water has low kh so is prone to ph crash(down)....when the kh is used up, the ph goes down...you dig?:)

Rox

Not in an aging container. In the tank with fish, this is true.

[shawnhu]

If your ph is low the Ammonia will not harm the Fish,but when it rises it could become toxic very quickly to your fish. You can use prime when bring it up untill Bacteria start to reactivate or reproduce. There is still ammonia in the water with low ph,but it is the less toxic kind called Ammonium I believe its called. It is what the Bactria converts the bad ammonia too. Keeping the Ph low is not killing you Bacteria per say,but puts it in a less active stasis and they slowly die from lack of food (Ammonia).There are keep in mind different kinds of Bactria keeping you tank balanced.

What is your TDS or Hardness? If you water is to soft like TDS of 50 or less this can become a bacteria killer. I have had this happen in one of my 55gal tanks where I was changing with pure R/O and not adding any tap water or R/O Right to harden the water. R/O or distilled water is dead water. You have to keep you water changes up to keep fish in low TDS. Daily w/c of 75% I would say to take out the bad stuff. it take a higher amount of ammonia in low ph to become toxic to most fish. This depends on your fish,but Discus can take very little ammonia to become stressed at 2.5,but would be ok at 1.0 or 1.5. When in most cases at a ph of 7.0 they would be died or dieing. This is why you seen them less active and not eat as much at a level of 2.5 or so. Lower TDS makes it harder to have hi PH also. So you can get in to a very vicious cycle getting below neutral Ph and a netral TDS around 250ppm. I have had tanks as low as 4.8 to 5.0 and had no ammonia problems that kill my fish,but that is with keeping up a daily water change of 75-90%. If you read on the web about PH and Ammonia you will learn a lot. I do agree with above that ph should go up not down with aging. If you keep you water in a fish tank at ph of 7.0 and tds at 250ppm that is a balance tank. If you waver from this it takes more of an effort by the fish keeper to keep it balanced,by water changes.

Hope this help a little

Kyle

Kyle, some of the information here is not correct. Beneficial Bacteria converns both Ammonia and Ammonium to Nitrite. Ammonium is the less toxic form of Ammonia though.

TDS measures total solids, not carbonate hardness. What you need to keep the tank stable in relation to PH is carbonate hardness, KH. Baking Soda can do the trick here if your KH is low. Most folks target a KH of 4 degrees.

Regarding the Ammonia, PH, and Discus of 2.5 inches, I've had some success with this. I currently have 13 2" and under sized Discus that a local breeder gave me. They are currently getting 80-90% water changes a day, and produce ammonia at 4-6ppm in 24 hrs. My PH from the tap is 7.0. By your theory, my fish should be dead by now, since 80% of 6ppm would leave about 1.2 ppm left at a PH of 7.0. Perhaps I have a special strain of Discus, but they are thriving, growing 1" a month, and eating like it's their last meal.

I just wanted to share that story to disprove some of the myths that goes around ammonia, PH, and death.

Shawn

[Roxanne]

..Keeping the Ph low is not killing you Bacteria per say,but puts it in a less active stasis and they slowly die from lack of food (Ammonia)... I do agree with above that ph should go up not down with aging.

Kyle

Low ph does not kill the bacteria....it merely slows it's growth as do low temperatures...

...ph stabilises with aging and it depends on your source water whether it goes up or down...again, the kh is key....

Rox

[kpotter2]

Kyle, some of the information here is not correct. Beneficial Bacteria converns both Ammonia and Ammonium to Nitrite. Ammonium is the less toxic form of Ammonia though.

TDS measures total solids, not carbonate hardness. What you need to keep the tank stable in relation to PH is carbonate hardness, KH. Baking Soda can do the trick here if your KH is low. Most folks target a KH of 4 degrees.

Regarding the Ammonia, PH, and Discus of 2.5 inches, I've had some success with this. I currently have 13 2" and under sized Discus that a local breeder gave me. They are currently getting 80-90% water changes a day, and produce ammonia at 4-6ppm in 24 hrs. My PH from the tap is 7.0. By your theory, my fish should be dead by now, since 80% of 6ppm would leave about 1.2 ppm left at a PH of 7.0. Perhaps I have a special strain of Discus, but they are thriving, growing 1" a month, and eating like it's their last meal.

I just wanted to share that story to disprove some of the myths that goes around ammonia, PH, and death.

Shawn

Thanks Shawn, I am sure some of my theory is sound, but not all. Its built on some facts and some experience. You doing the water changes is whats keeping your fish alive. All I am saying is that the lower your PH is the less toxic Ammonia is. Ammonia is a water-soluble gas which combines with acids to form ammonium salts: ammonia is a molecule, ammonium is an ion.. If the ph of a solution is changed by acids or alkali's, the ratio of ammonia and ammonium salts (if present) will also be changed: at lower ph values, more toxic ammonia will be liberated from the ammonium salts. We always measure ammonia in a strongly alkaline solution, and the toxicity of the amount present is established by measuring the Ph and reading the table.

Ph value Ammonia % Ammonium Ion %
6 0 100
7 1 99
8 4 96
9 25 75
10 78 22

This being said many factors are not added into this table like
Type and size of tank,general condition of fish,carbon dioxide excess and oxygen deficiency witch both increase the toxic effect. Also Electro-chemical equilibrium and colloid content (especially where salt water is concerned)


At a ph of below 6.5 nitrification stops and the ammonia cannot be "Broken down" by bacterial activity. However, no actual destruction but merely a chemical reconstruction resulting in a removal of the toxicity. The very toxic ammonia is oxidized by the bacteria into the nitrite ion and then into nitrate, and thus rendered harmless. Threshold stand here like very high nitrate content become dangerous again.
Acid waters often possess a surprisingly high ammonium content, with 30 - 40 mg not exceptional. A water change of 50% may, result in acute ammonia poisoning if the old water contained sufficient ammonium ions to be changed into toxic ammonia by the raised Ph.

There are a lot of other factors that come into play,but the main thing that is said is the low ph is keeping the Ammonia less toxic then higher ph. Some of what I said in my first post was out of memory,but my memory was not the best. Sorry

This is out of a book I have called "water Chemistry for advanced aquarists" by Guido Huckstedt
T.F.H. publications, inc it was published in 1973

Look into it its a very great read!

Thanks

Kyle




Low ph does not kill the bacteria....it merely slows it's growth as do low temperatures...

...ph stabilises with aging and it depends on your source water whether it goes up or down...again, the kh is key....

Rox

Rox, I do agree with you I forgot about the source water being up or down to start with.

Kyle