Nitrate issues

[Palue]

I am still battling the nitrate issue, my reading is between 40-80 and with more frequent water changes it is not going down much.

My tap water reads 0

Tank is 46 gal bowfront with 4 Discus, I have sand in the bottom and really wondering it this is the main issue??

Its only about 1" thick

I feed what the fish will consume so none is left floating around the tank.

I have a 305 fluval canister on this tank.

One thing I have noticed is that the horrible hair algae is way less than it use to be.

So what is causing this reading to stay so high??

:(

[Ardan]

Hi,
If the tap reading is 0 but the tank reading is high, then more and larger wc's would help.

The gravel may be trapping waste also. Vacuming the gravel more often or siphoning it out would help.



hth
Ardan

[Palue]

I don't have gravel it is a sand bottom.

[yim11]

Have you tried stirring the sand to ensure you don't have any pockets of bacteria? I stir mine every water change using a pair of chopsticks.

HTHs,
-jim

[DiscusKeeper403]

As others said. How often are you doing water changes now? Keep them up and continue in order to keep those nitrates low. If you have sand, why not add some aquatic plants? Hornwort is supposed to be really good for absorbing nitrogen, but any plants will absorb nitrates.

[Palue]

[QUOTE=yim11;549760]Have you tried stirring the sand to ensure you don't have any pockets of bacteria? I stir mine every water change using a pair of chopsticks.

No I have not but will start doing that for sure....:D

[Palue]

As others said. How often are you doing water changes now? Keep them up and continue in order to keep those nitrates low. If you have sand, why not add some aquatic plants? Hornwort is supposed to be really good for absorbing nitrogen, but any plants will absorb nitrates.

I have been doing changes once a week but now doing them twice a week to get them down. I also have live plants, my mopani has Anubias growing on it, about 5 plants in total.

:D

[DiscusKeeper403]

I have been doing changes once a week but now doing them twice a week to get them down. I also have live plants, my mopani has Anubias growing on it, about 5 plants in total.

:D


If it is still high then more water changes are probably needed, try doing them daily and see if that will bring them down, and then see if once every other day keeps them around 10 or below (ideally this level.) Adding more plants if possible should also help.

[Palue]

Okay thanks for all the advice....:D

[Scribbles]

I have an Eheim sludge extractor that I use to clean the gravel/sand mix sustrate in my tank. It just takes a couple of minutes, no muss no fuss. What I don't know is if it would suck up a straight sand substrate. Anybody know? If not I would give it a try. Also, Amazon Frogbit is a nice floating plant that has long feathery roots that can help suck up excess nutrients. HTH

Chris

[Darrell Ward]

Lose the sand and your problem will go away. The sand is holding dissolved organics. I would bet money on it!

[DonMD]

Palue,

I have a 125 gallon tank with about 2 inches of sand on the bottom. I change about 30% of the water daily, and maintain a Nitrate reading of 5 ppm. I sometimes will put the siphon tube down in the sand in places when changing water and it will suck up the sand. Before it get's too far up the tube, I lift the tube out of the sand, and it falls back. That's how I keep the sand substrate more or less clean.

hth. -Don

[daboo]

Palue,
It seems you want to get the nitrate levels down quickly. There are two ways to do that. Large and frequent water changes as was described by some others here. The second method is to use a nitrate remover either in your filter or get column that will hold this resin where you pump the water through that via a separate pump. If you use a nitrate remover you need to determine its capacity and how much of the nitrate it will remove from your tank.

Once your nitrate levels are lower plants will maintain it but you may need to keep an eye on it still. Plants will not remove nitrates at the speed and levels you want right now.

For large water changes consider if you do a 50% change every day. Day 1 it will be reduced 50%, day 2 will be down to 25%, day 3 down to 12.5%. This will give you an idea how much and how quickly you can expect to lower the nitrate levels.

[DiscusKeeper403]

Palue,
The second method is to use a nitrate remover.


Nothing can replace water changes though ;)

[rich815]

Have you tried stirring the sand to ensure you don't have any pockets of bacteria? I stir mine every water change using a pair of chopsticks.

HTHs,
-jim


This can work as intended but can very likely create an ammonia spike and even green water. If you do this do it RIGHT before your water change, at least 50% and frankly I'd do two consecutive 50% water changes to really be sure to get what you stirred up out of there.

[Palue]

Thanks everyone for the info, I hope to see an improvement soon.

:D

[Jhhnn]

Palue,
It seems you want to get the nitrate levels down quickly. There are two ways to do that. Large and frequent water changes as was described by some others here. The second method is to use a nitrate remover either in your filter or get column that will hold this resin where you pump the water through that via a separate pump. If you use a nitrate remover you need to determine its capacity and how much of the nitrate it will remove from your tank.

Once your nitrate levels are lower plants will maintain it but you may need to keep an eye on it still. Plants will not remove nitrates at the speed and levels you want right now.

For large water changes consider if you do a 50% change every day. Day 1 it will be reduced 50%, day 2 will be down to 25%, day 3 down to 12.5%. This will give you an idea how much and how quickly you can expect to lower the nitrate levels.

Kinda-sorta... if no additional organic material is being added to the tank, anyway. I'm definitely with you about the daily water changes, though, even if their effect is blunted a little by feeding...

Use a gravel-vac on the sand, if you have one. Have the hose make a U-turn in your hand, so you can stop the flow as desired, let the sand fall to the bottom...

The more organic material you can remove from the aquarium, the less there will be to turn into nitrates...

[Don Trinko]

If you do a 50% WC the nitrates should be 1/2 of what they were before the WC. If they aren't something is wrong! They will build up again but if you have 40 before you should have 20 after.
What type of test kit? The strips are not very accurate. Get a liquid test kit.
Do you have any nitrites? Nitrites will effect the reading on some nitrate test kits. Don T.

[Jhhnn]

If you do a 50% WC the nitrates should be 1/2 of what they were before the WC. If they aren't something is wrong! They will build up again but if you have 40 before you should have 20 after.
What type of test kit? The strips are not very accurate. Get a liquid test kit.
Do you have any nitrites? Nitrites will effect the reading on some nitrate test kits. Don T.

You're right, of course, wrt testing immediately after the water change. If feeding continues, and particularly if total organic content in the tank is high, then normal healthy conversion will serve to drive the nitrate level up over the course of a day or two.

I think we agree, we just put it in different terms.

I've been using the Seachem ammonia and nitrite/nitrate test kits, which seem to work pretty well...

[erikc]

Just another angle of approach here :) :

How often do you clean out your filter ? What kind of media is in it and what is the total volume of your filter (holding volume for filter media that is) ?

I was just reading through the posts and maybe something else is at issue here ...

[Don Trinko]

When I was cycling a salt water tank my nitrates read very high. When the nitrites droped to zero my nitrates then tested 10.
Probably you have no nitrites but it wouldn,t hurt to test. Don T.

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

Just another angle of approach here :) :

How often do you clean out your filter ? What kind of media is in it and what is the total volume of your filter (holding volume for filter media that is) ?

I was just reading through the posts and maybe something else is at issue here ...

heh, I was thinking this too...I think its time I clean my canister filters...been a while and it raises my nitrates up a bit, even right after a 100% WC...gotta be a dirty filter. i have BB tanks.

[Apistomaster]

Palue,

I have a 125 gallon tank with about 2 inches of sand on the bottom. I change about 30% of the water daily, and maintain a Nitrate reading of 5 ppm. I sometimes will put the siphon tube down in the sand in places when changing water and it will suck up the sand. Before it get's too far up the tube, I lift the tube out of the sand, and it falls back. That's how I keep the sand substrate more or less clean.

hth. -Don

Don gave you very good advice. Stirring the sand will do nothing to help. Only vacuuming the sand per Don's advice works.
Recommend you use 2 filters so you can alternately clean them more frequently without causing any disruption of the normal nitrogen cycle..
Further more, change more water. Normally 2/3 to 3/4 total volume water changes twice a week works well.
If you are feeding a beef heart mix then feed it in smaller amounts less frequently. Beef Heart blends grow discus out fast but they are also very messy. Consider stocking a group of Hypancistrus or Peckoltia Plecos as they are much more effective than Corydoras when it comes to cleaning up meat scraps.

[Palue]

Okay, I have the 305 Fluval Canister filter. I have been doing a complete clean of it every second week.

I have been doing a 50% water change each week of the tank.

The only plants I have in there are Anubais attached to mopani.

My bottom is sand 1" thick.

I do tend to feed on the heavy side.

My lfs said I feed way to much, and the sand is a huge issue.

She suggests cutting back on the feedings and see if this happens, if not then remove the sand.

I have no plants in the sand at all.

Today was my water and filter change, after I did this I waited one hour and tested and it is 20 for a reading now.

My test kit is brand new API bottles not test strips.

My fish are not for breeding rather just for pleasure to get those huge discus all you breeders want is not a necessity to me. I do however have my cobalt blue which is huge and the other three are just about as big so cutting back on my feedings I am going to see if this help.

Hard to walk by the tank when they are always begging like little puppies.

[rich815]

Okay, I have the 305 Fluval Canister filter. I have been doing a complete clean of it every second week.

I have been doing a 50% water change each week of the tank.

The only plants I have in there are Anubais attached to mopani.

My bottom is sand 1" thick.

I do tend to feed on the heavy side.

My lfs said I feed way to much, and the sand is a huge issue.

She suggests cutting back on the feedings and see if this happens, if not then remove the sand.

I have no plants in the sand at all.

Today was my water and filter change, after I did this I waited one hour and tested and it is 20 for a reading now.

My test kit is brand new API bottles not test strips.

My fish are not for breeding rather just for pleasure to get those huge discus all you breeders want is not a necessity to me. I do however have my cobalt blue which is huge and the other three are just about as big so cutting back on my feedings I am going to see if this help.

Hard to walk by the tank when they are always begging like little puppies.

I formerly used to overfeed way too much. I was always worried the less aggresive fish were not getting enough. It caused Nitrate and Phosphate issues. I then buckled down and did this: I'd decide how much food to feed. Then I'd cut it in HALF and feed that. Guess what? Months later no fish starved and they were FINE.

[Jhhnn]

If you clean your canister every 2 weeks, that's more than enough, if you have a prefilter.

In an effort to reduce canister cleaning, I substituted the fine foam from a #3 Jehmco sponge filter for the coarse foam in their normal prefilter kit. The canister stays a lot cleaner, and the prefilter is easy to clean... flow is still good, no probs there.

20 ppm nitrates means you're in the ballpark, so you can use what you've learned to keep it there or lower...

It seems to me that discus have a sort of time-based growth cycle. However big they get in the first year or 18 months is pretty much where they'll stay, with any growth after that being very small and very slow. So the feeding regimen of juvies vs adults is different, depending on what the owner wants to achieve and what they're willing to do to get it...

[Apistomaster]

I believe you are cleaning your filter much to often. I would clean it out every 2-4 months depending on the load and do use the coarse prefilte on the inlet. The prefilters can be cleaned as often as you like and could extend the main filter to the every 4 months cycle.
It pays to operate a backup filter even if it's smaller so when you do a major cleaning job on the main filter there should be no mini-cycle lag time.

[dvc_r]

I've only been doing this for about two years now so I'm still green, but when I need to do a large water change I have a hose that go out my back door and it siphons at a rate of 1 gal every minute and 20 seconds and my pump fills the tank at a rate of 1 gal per 50 secs. So what I do is siphon out 40% than turn on my pump while it's still emptying. This way I can do a 75% water change without stressing the fish. (PS: the water in my storage tank is heated)

[Jhhnn]

I think Apistomaster is probably right about the filter cleaning. Not that excessive rinsing in aquarium water is terribly harmful, but you've probably got better things to do, even if it's just watching the fish. Might try letting it go for a month. If that's good, try 2 months, and so forth.

Using the finer prefilter foam, I'm hoping to stretch the canister cleaning interval to 6 months... I already know that 2 months is OK, and am waiting to see about 3. Every tank is a little different, so you'll have to experiment...

[Palue]

I am not running any other filter except this cannister.

That is another thing my lfs told me is she thinks I am doing way to many water changes and filter cleaning. I guess old habits are hard to break.

This is my first canister filter so I keep thinking i have to clean it like the HOB filter that I have used for 20+ years.

The fish are: Cobalt Blue 2 yrs old and the other 2 are 1 yr now.

Do you think I should keep doing the weekly water changes?? How many gal should I be doing??

I am going to cut down on the feedings, I feel so bad but I know its best for the fish and the tank.

I guess that is why my snail issue is just flourishing......:(

My yo-yo is doing a fine job though and is not bothering the Discus at all so that part is good.

Lastly is feeding twice a day going to be to much or should it be once a day now??

:angel:

[rickztahone]

I am not running any other filter except this cannister.

That is another thing my lfs told me is she thinks I am doing way to many water changes and filter cleaning. I guess old habits are hard to break.

This is my first canister filter so I keep thinking i have to clean it like the HOB filter that I have used for 20+ years.

The fish are: Cobalt Blue 2 yrs old and the other 2 are 1 yr now.

Do you think I should keep doing the weekly water changes?? How many gal should I be doing??

I am going to cut down on the feedings, I feel so bad but I know its best for the fish and the tank.

I guess that is why my snail issue is just flourishing......:(

My yo-yo is doing a fine job though and is not bothering the Discus at all so that part is good.

Lastly is feeding twice a day going to be to much or should it be once a day now??

:angel:

you do not need to clean a cansiter as often as an HOB. you can go a few months without cleaning it actually with no problems. just make sure you use a prefilter like members have already suggested and clean that on a daily basis. twice a day is fine IMO. are they adults or are you still growing them out? also, when you do the 2 feedings are you feeding heavily or sparingly?

[Jhhnn]

Nitrates are the end product of the normal bacterial processes in your tank. They can only be removed by water changes, harvesting live plants, absorption by specialized resins, or conversion into nitrogen gas by special nitrate/ anaerobic bacterial filters. Dunno about the efficacy of the last 2 methods.

As you've seen, changing more water is what allowed you to bring nitrate levels under control, and is the method most of us use to do so. It just works. When your lfs tells you that you're changing too much water, that's contrary to your own experience and that of discus keepers everywhere.

If you're growing out fish, they need to be heavily fed to get the proper growth. Just the way it is. So you pay the price with water changes or small fish, take your pick. Or you get it wrong with poisoned fish.

Dunno how you currently change water, but it pays to invest in the means to make it easy. There are a variety of ways to accomplish that, depending on your situation. Maybe you can get some help with that by describing your tank location wrt a water source/drain and your current methods...

I'm entering into a process of upgrading my own system, and that's really what it takes, a systematized way of dealing with it... and an investment in terms of equipment vs your own time over the long run...

[Palue]

What do you all mean by a prefilter??

These fish except for the one are young adults 1 yr old. I am not breeding but rather enjoy having them for their beauty in our home.

If some don't get to the size of the oldest one that is fine, I find the size they are very nice, they are not much smaller than the oldest one.

The tank is a 46 gal bowfront, when I do water changes I drain it out the tubes from the canister filter into a pail. I use to use my vacum to suck out the water but found this way better as it flushes the lines of guck at the same time into my pail.

When I feed I do feed to heavy I see as there is food on the bottom that they take a while to clean up. So I will cut back on the amount for sure.

I have not taken a reading this morning but will do so and see where things are.

I am not going to clean the filter as often then but keep up with my water changes and see where this leads me.

If with the lighter feedings, less filter cleaning the reading stays high then the sand will come out.

Thanks again for all the advice and help.

[Roxanne]

What do you all mean by a prefilter??

..When I feed I do feed to heavy I see as there is food on the bottom that they take a while to clean up. So I will cut back on the amount for sure.

...

Hi Palue

A prefilter: course sponge over the intake which will catch the muck before it goes into the filter...then just rinse the prefilter daily...

Whoa right back with the amount you feed....smaller amounts more frequently will do fine...what doesn't get eaten is going to rot and raise your doc's so you don't want it hanging around in the tank that long...

Rox

[Roxanne]

PS>>>I haven't met a LFS owner yet who believes in changing water often....sad isn't it?

[GrillMaster]

Palue...Let me put a spin on this if I may. You said all you have are anubias on driftwood. That isn't enough plants in your tank to uptake the nitrates which means ya have free ferts for the anubias, but simply have to change the water more often as the others have said to keep the nitrates in check. You can feed the fish as much as you like, you will just have to do more WC's.

Please dont clean out your canister anymore for a few months as others have stated, and start doing WC's till your nitrates are down to 10 ppm. Get your self a new liquid test kit. They sell them just for nitrates, but a complete test kit isn't that much more. Test a couple hours after ya do a WC and before you know it you will know how much water to change as well as how often to change it. :)

[Jhhnn]

Prefilters and sponge filters here, for example-

http://www.jehmco.com/html/hydro-sponge_filters.html

The HS-PF-FM3 is a good bet, as it'll adapt right up to most anything.

Changing water w/ buckets is a hard way to go. I realize that not everybody can create a water changing system as elaborate as my own, for a variety of reasons. But making it easy is, imho, the real key to successful discus keeping. Where in the house is the aquarium located? how far to the nearest drain/ water source? do you have a place nearby where you can put a water ageing container?

As I offered earlier, some creative investment now can pay big dividends down the road... and we're not talking about a really large amount of money, either...