help a lfs employee [Archive]

RandomTabby

07-28-2009, 03:37 AM

Ok so here's the scoop. I have been keeping and breeding fresh water fish for nine years now, and keeping reef tanks for a year. About 14 months ago I started working at my lfs and loving it. I started reading up on discus about 6 months ago and really loving them, they are truly mesmerizing.
I have never owned my own discus, I have only experience caring for the ones at the store. Because of this I feel I have never seen a truly healthy discus. They come in from the supplier looking stressed, sometimes with torn fins (!?) and take a day or two to recover to the point of all swimming normally and eating. Then the problems usually start. They get dark and milky and stop eating (or try to eat but either miss or spit it out) and hide. Their tank is 48 gallons, kept at 84F, ph 6. It has a fluval 1, fluval 4 (both submersibles) and heater. They eat Hikari’s frozen blood worms, spirulina brine and sometimes mysis; I offer pellets but they never swallow them. Their tank used to be a show tank with gravel, Manzanita wood, plants, ancistrus, japonica shrimp, all our zebra snails, and too many schooling fish. I finally convinced the boss to let me turn it into a bare tank, and I thought (perhaps naively) that this would lead to quick positive results. Not much happened.
So, as per the book “asian discus”, I followed the author’s suggestion to give them a ½ hr formalin dip and then lower the water level to twice the height of the fish and add salt “as much as the fish will tolerate”, I usually go up to 1 TEAspoon per gallon. They are kept this way for 3-4 days, given no food, and a big WC daily. This in the past has given me positive results, although the fish never looked as good as I think they should.
However, the most recent arrivals were 12 3” fish give or take a bit. They came in as described, so I tried the salt therapy. They recovered only very slightly, and only half were even picking at food. So I gave them a break for two days and tried it again for two days, and still they looked almost the same. Their feces were pale and one fish was shaking, so I decided to fill the tank full and give them seachem’s Metro in their food and water. Now, perhaps I used too much… seachem has a little spoon included, and say to give one to two scoops per 10 gallons. I did a 100 wc and gave the max dose. The next morning one was dead, but I was not too surprised as it had been the weakest anyway. I did a 40-45 gal wc, but this time left the fish in the tank (usually for a change 80-100% I would net them out first, because we do not have a reservoir available to prepare fresh water ahead of time, they get strait tap water and prime at the same time, but I hate netting them out so often). What I did was prepare the water in 8 gal buckets and then climb a ladder to dump it in 2liters at a time, and did not add any more metro. The temp and ph were perfect, and I added the prime to the buckets. This wc took me about an hour total, which is not feasible every day as I have many animals to care for, but the discus looked so poor they needed the tlc. Soon after one fish was swimming upside down, then was dead… a few hours later another died. Then another. All I can imagine is it was still the over dose(?) of metro affecting them. I hope the remaining fish are alive tomorrow.

What more can I do for these poor fish? I hear that most stores will keep their discus with a sponge/airstone filter, are my fish perhaps not getting enough aeration? (Their filters only gently ripple the surface at best) is this better than my current filters? Any other changes I can make? Should metro always be increased slowly?

Thank you so much in advance, I really want to offer quality fish soon (I never sell them while they look poor, which means they are almost never actually for sale…)

Elite Aquaria

07-28-2009, 06:25 AM

bs6749

07-28-2009, 08:01 AM

Hello, and welcome to SD. I'm not sure if I can help much, but luckily for you there are many on here with the experience to help you. This thread might get more attention in the Disease and Sickness section.

You can't have too much fresh water for discus. I too would give them large water changes as often as posisble, however I would use Metronidazole to treat the fish. Metro is most effective at higher temps and it is recommended to get the temperature to 92 degrees for it to be most effective. Also, I'd hit them with a double dose of metro. By this I mean I would feed them medicated flake food, which is the most effective way that metro works according to many. It's best when taken internally. AngelsPlus has some fantastic medicated flake food and it might be worth your store having on hand ( http://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeMedicated.htm ). I'd get the largest size possible, as a 3 oz bag seems like it would treat 1-2 groups of fish. It is supposed to be fed exclusively for 7 days, twice per day. I've tried the Jungle medicated foods and they are junk. They would probably work if the fish ate them but that's the problem. In addition to the medicated food, I would put metro in the tank at 500mg/10gallons every 8 hours with the temp at 92 degrees. You might want to use a spare 29g tank for this to cut down on the meds. An added airstone would only help put oxygen into the water making it easier for the fish to breathe.

If they aren't excepting of the medicated flake from AngelPlus, you might consider making your own medicated food. I'd use bloodworms, since you said that they were eating those. Run about 8 oz of bloodworms under warm water in a net and put them into a container. Then put about 4 grams of metro (powder form) in with the bloodworms and mix thoroughly. Let this mixture sit for about 20 minutes so the worms have some time to absorb the metro, then add the mixture to a zippable bag. You will want to make sure that the worms are nice and flat in the bag because you are going to put it into the freezer and then break off pieces to feed to the fish. I've had success doing this with bloodworms.

If your fish are coming in sick I wouldn't stop feeding them. If they are eating that is VERY GOOD. Like Dan said, they probably haven't eaten in a while and there is no point in making them weaker. Give them food if they take it and give them whatever they will eat. Don't try to feed them pellets if they don't like them, rather give them bloodworms for now. Better to have something in their bellies than nothing at all.

I also want to point out that you might want to consider changing suppliers. I would talk to Hans, who is a sponsor of this forum. I know that he could set your store up with nice quality fish. Here is a link for you: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?f=114
It might be much easier and more profitable for your store to start out with healthy fish and Hans has them no doubt. He'd be able to supply your store with whatever it needed and I'm sure the owner of the store and him could work on prices. Be sure to tell him I sent you :)

Eddie

07-28-2009, 11:50 AM

First of all Welcome to Simply...

How much Metro did you use?

Remember they probably had not eaten for at least 3-4 days if they were shipped from the Far East. Then you medicated them immediately and they went another 3-4 days without food...this will stunt and stress a fish. Next time I would use a pound of salt per 50 gallons day one...then do a 50% water change every day without adding back any Salt. Get the fish to start eating so they can get there strength back. Then monitor and medicate as needed. I am not a fan of Meds and rarely use them. I prefer clean water...

I agree with Dan, clean water, no meds. It can take a while for the new fish to come around and start eating. If and when they start eating, feed them well and clean water every day. From the deaths though, the fish seem to have been poisoned maybe from toxins in the water, or whatever you are using to fill the tank. It would take quite a bit of metro to kill a fish that fast so I don't think it was that unless you literally chalked up the water with it until it was murky and cloudy. :(

Edie

DLock3d

07-28-2009, 12:09 PM

While I'm not an expert, I agree with Eddie and Dan. When your fish first arrive it's important to keep them in clean water and fed heartily. Even with disease I think it would be better to get them accustomed to the new environment with full bellies before trying to medicate. Salt on the other hand does AMAZING things for discus and is not a harsh med like metro or any of the others. Another idea is to think about ordering fish from one of our sponsors next time. You are almost ALWAYS guaranteed live, HEALTHY fish. In the interim I would follow Dan's advice. A commonly followed suggestion by members of this forum is to ask about the circumstances before medicating. I do understand that this was your first post and that you are probably new to simply. Know that you have 100's of people who are ready and willing to help you with your future discus endeavors. Best of luck and welcome to Simply, Random!

mmorris

07-28-2009, 12:32 PM

It's nice to see someone at an lfs making the effort! You'll crack this, and then your shop will be the place to go for discus, providing you start with quality stock. Why metro? What symptoms suggest to you that metro is called for? Can you post pics? When you say they get dark and milky, are you possibly seeing shedding slime coat? It sounds like they are not on a central filtration system, but if you are sharing nets and bucket with other tanks, you could very well be introducing pathogens.

RandomTabby

07-28-2009, 01:02 PM

Thank you all for the quick reply!
I did wait about four days before lowering the water, adding salt and ceasing feeding. I did so because only half of them were even looking at the food, and all of them were getting worse. Next time I will wait much longer before stopping feeding, and add salt right away. Should I start with the max dose (1lb per 50 gal- any idea what that is in tbsp?) or start them in fresh and work up to that dose by the end of the day they arrive?

Yes they have their own water in that tank- all our fresh water tanks are separate! I could not imagine working on a central system (yuck!) . I do try to keep their equipment (nets, buckets etc) separate, or open new things for them, but this is not always possible, so yes cross contamination is entirely possible.

I do think the milky-ness is their slime coat. It is sometimes criss crossy across their bodies, or in tiny patches. I gave metro because most of them had pale feces and one fish started shaking. I have seen this before and in the past they all started shaking, so I thought I would jump on it.
I added metro to their water and thawed food, then refroze the rest. I followed seachem's directions and only put in their max dose. I put the metro in the tank while the fish were in a bucket then acclimated them to it, instead of adding the fish first. I only added the metro to water once, I usually only add it once a day after the water change.

How hard is it on discus to add strait chlorinated water and water conditioner at the same time? As mentioned I don't have time every day to pre-mix in buckets, and if the boss sees my big sloppy mess from doing so I'll probably get heck, but I want to continue the big water changes every day.

I'll try to check on which breeder the fish are coming from. All I know is they come in with our Singapore fish, the supplier is "Wet Pets".

DLock3d

07-28-2009, 01:31 PM

Everytime I do my water changes I add the prime(dechlor) directly to the tank with about two inches of water left in the tank. I then pump straight tap water in. I have had little if any problems with this method. If you are receiving sick fish, again I would encourage you to plead with your boss to order from a sponsor hear or at least a local breeder.

RandomTabby

07-28-2009, 01:42 PM

rickztahone

07-28-2009, 01:56 PM

My main issue when the fish first came in is that some had torn fins. They were each packed in their own little bag. Is it common for discus to tear their own fins in a bag?? Or might they have started out that way...?

they might have been shipped that way but you have to keep in mind that they have been through a long journey and it is possible that they have ammonia burns from their own waste in the bags. the salt helps with the fins and easing them. if the fish had white poo then metro was the right call but if not then i'm not sure it was. i doubt you overdosed on metro however, as most of us use 500mg/10g of water. it might be that the fish are just super stressed from the shipping. how are you acclimating these fish? do you know the water parameters from the breeder? do you know your parameters? how long was the tank cycled?

lkevin

07-28-2009, 01:57 PM

My main issue when the fish first came in is that some had torn fins. They were each packed in their own little bag. Is it common for discus to tear their own fins in a bag?? Or might they have started out that way...?

Shipping definitely has the potential to rip fins on the bag; it really depends on how they are handled in transit. Are there holes in the bags they are in when they arrive? Hopefully we can assume that whoever is selling you these fish isn't selling them with torn fins, but you never know....

Bottom line is there is nothing more important to healthy fish than starting with the right stock, and this forum is filled with people who can provide that. I would say you are safe ordering from any one of the fantastic sponsors on here, it just depends on what you are looking for in your fish.

Best of luck to you and congrats on making the effort to do something about such a bad situation!

Kevin

Eddie

07-28-2009, 08:15 PM

Here you go my friend, recipe for success. Your tank probably is already contaminated. You need to try and keep a strict process in which nothing, NOTHING gets to that discus tank.

The torn fins are as Ricardo mentioned probably ammonia burns and could also be PH burns. How are you acclimating the fish into the tank? Are you just floating the fish and after the temp is right, opening the bags an just netting the fish out and dropping them into the tank? That is what you need to do, drop and plop method.

Add the salt as Dan mentioned and I would also add a 1/3 the dose of acriflavine to the tank. It not much at all, for a 50 gallon, thats like 2 tspns. The water will be green green for a while so after the fish seem to be doing well, water changes will get rid of the green. You can also filter the tank with activated carbon and remove the acriflavine.

Guarantee you won't see the fish break down as bad.

HTH
Eddie

csarkar001

07-28-2009, 09:28 PM

eddie: what does the arciflavine do? do you use it as a prophylactic when adding new fish or only if there are problems?

--chandan

Eddie

07-28-2009, 09:35 PM

eddie: what does the arciflavine do? do you use it as a prophylactic when adding new fish or only if there are problems?

--chandan

Yup, an oldy but goody! But it would not be the therapeutic dose, just a preventative which is roughly 1/3 the amount.

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/Acriflavine/index.htm

Eddie

RandomTabby

07-28-2009, 11:06 PM

I have no idea what the water parameters from the supplier are, the best I could do is test the bag water when they arrive but that is always skewed from having a fish in it for who knows how long. I have never seen a heckle in our store since I started there, we only get blue / green / browns, so I set up the tank for them. Maybe once I perfect this we can get some heckles.

no holes in the bags when they arrive, thank goodness or they would have no water :)

When the fish arrive I put them each in their own little bucket (Lee's specimen containers) with their water and 1/2 that amount of tank water. I add the same amount of tank water 5 minutes later, then again the same. 5 minutes later I net the fish out and put them in the tank. I also stop the fluval 4 for an hour or two after putting them in so they can adjust a bit before being blown around.

Our tank temp 84F ph 6. It has been set up for 8 years as a display style tank. Now it is bare. I feed the fish 2-4 times a day.

I have now set aside some nets, small buckets, a feeding pipette, and algae scrubber (although I usually use paper towel) just for the discus. However, there are not enough buckets in the store for the discus to have enough dedicated for their acclimation (each fish in own bucket). Also, we have only one Aqua vac for water changes, which is shared between all tanks in the store. I rinse it with hot water before it touches the discus tank- I know that doesn't do much but that's the best I can do. It is also very difficult to prevent discus equip from touching or being set on wet counters, ladders, etc that are wet with water from other tanks. I try my best but this is the unique challenge your lfs is faced with every day, so thank you for your patience and advice.

RandomTabby

07-28-2009, 11:09 PM

I noticed on Kordon's website it says about Acriflavine "SPECIAL NOTE
Water conditions in which there is a notably acid pH (below 7.0) will inhibit the activity of this product. "

Should I make sure the tank is 7 when the fish arrive and any time using this med?

bs6749

07-28-2009, 11:28 PM

If it says that, then I'd make sure the tank has an alkaline pH. The med will convert to something else. I see from it's chemical structure that there are two NH2 groups bonded to benzene rings. What will happen in an acidic solution is there are an abundance of H+ ions floating around in solution. They want to bond with something negative, and the nitrogen atom from the NH2 (amine) group has a lone pair of electrons for the hydronium ion (H+) to bond to. What is created is an NH3 molecule that is bonded to a benzene ring. This NH3 functional group is considered to be one of the best "leaving groups" meaning that it will literally break it's bond with the benzene ring and will leave. It does this because it is more stable and lower energy (heat should be given off in the process). So there is justification for wanting the water to be alkaline. Once the ammonia groups break off the molecule is not effective. Having an alkaline pH means there is an abundance of hydroxyl ions (OH-) in solution and they will readily bond to cations (free positively charged ions) that my bond with the NH2 group and kick it away from the molecule.

Eddie

07-29-2009, 12:21 AM

So basically you are doing somewhat slow acclimation, thats why you are getting ammonia burns.

Float the bags to get near the same temp and then net the fish directly into the tank.

Eddie

RandomTabby

07-29-2009, 12:36 AM

Wow, I always wanted to be good at chemistry ^.^ I will make sure the ph is at least 7 when using that med!

I did put one drop of prime with each fish when starting the acclimatization, but I guess that didn't do it. With all the other fish we just net them into tanks, but I was trying to be too nice to the discus; next time I will just float them and net them into the tank, then add all that salt and feed a few times a day. I'm learning so much already!

bs6749

07-29-2009, 12:52 AM

I guess I HAVE to be good at chemistry. Going to be a chemical engineer in 2 years. Chemistry really isn't hard at all for me. What I do that makes it easy for me to understand is use a "common sense" approach. Things like positives are attracted to negatives. If there is one positive and two negatives, as on this molecule, you'd look to see which negative is more accessible. From the structure of the molecule one or both of the negatives may be somewhat inaccessible to forming bonds. The one that is more accessible is the one that will react more (there is some statistics involved). So with one reaction and a couple of reacting sites you can have several products form. Some may be completely harmless while others can be deadly. It really is much easier when you learn rules and approach it thinking that you will be able to understand it. If you tell yourself that you can't understand it then you never will get it.

ShinShin

07-29-2009, 12:53 AM

Without reading all the posts in the thread, I think that it is imperative to treat new arrivals, esp. in your situation, with a formalin/malachite green product for 3 days. Salt may be added as well. This will kill ectoparasites and reduce the stress on the new arrivals.

Many times this alone will bring a discus around, and it will begin to feed normally. If not, metro may be needed. You can treat at 400mg/10gal.

Mat

tcyiu

07-29-2009, 12:59 AM

One more thing: cover the tank. I don't know if this is even possible in an LFS, but reducing stress will help the fish recover.

Tim

csarkar001

07-29-2009, 11:52 AM

that was really good analysis, bryan. with the price of oil on the rise, its a good time to be a chemical engineer.

RandomTabby

07-29-2009, 12:20 PM

Wonderful stuff, everyone, especially Bryan.

What do you mean cover the tank? With a lid, or with shelter such as real or artificial floating plants? It is open per se, but is enclosed above so no outside light or dust can get in, with a swinging pane of wood so it can be accessed from the front.

If I did give all new fish formalin/malachite green (quick cure), would I use it at full strength? And the salt as well, keep the full dose (1 lb per 50 gal)?

These particular fish have gone through several 1/2 hr formalin baths. Yesterday there were only two dead... I guess that is an improvement. Most of them were picking at food yesterday and one dark blue one, who was always a good eater, still is. I was shocked yesterday to see two red melons dead, as they always seemed the healthiest.

tcyiu

07-29-2009, 01:03 PM

What do you mean cover the tank?

Exposure to the hustle and bustle of a fish store right out of the shipping container, could be yet another stressor.

If your fish are already very stressed, it might help to drape an opaque "curtain" over the front of the tank for a few days until they settle down. Of course do other things such as raise temp, aerate the water well (especially because of the warmer water), and add salt to aid the fish's natural defense mechanisms.

BTW, don't over do the salt treatment. Raising the salinity a little helps relieve osmotic pressure in the cells (from infections or bruises etc.). Raising the salinity too much dehydrates freshwater fish, and this is another stressor.

Also, don't net fish out of the tank for water changes. That just adds to the stress. If you cannot premix first, add the de-chlor first, and then the tap water. But try to make sure the water temp is close to the tank temp.

If they are gasping at the surface, lower the water level so that they do not have to expend too much energy to get to the top.

I've twice used the above procedure to bring back a BD that was in a really bad way. Likely causes were contaminated live worms. (No problems since LFS switched suppliers)

Anyway, too long of a reply. In treating a sick fish, my main objective is to help the fish's natural healing mechanisms. I try to remove stress factors (like bullying tank mates, foot traffic, poor water conditions, strong medicines) that can exacerbate the problem.

Good luck.

Tim

Daniella

07-31-2009, 04:11 PM

I often use Prime and add tap water directly but I let it flow slowly and fill up about 60 to 70 gallon over an hour. Never had a problem but I make sure that I don't have too much air bubbles by putting a coffee filter wrapped around my hose so that the water go through it and it retain any tiny air bubbles.

Prime works in matter of seconds so there is no harm to your fish. I did that often even like 80% to 90% of the water change because I use a Python system often.

As for the metro, I recently treated some young fish that were not eating and had no problem nor any dead fish. Fish started to eat again so the treatment worked but it was internal and not external.

Thank you all for the quick reply!
I did wait about four days before lowering the water, adding salt and ceasing feeding. I did so because only half of them were even looking at the food, and all of them were getting worse. Next time I will wait much longer before stopping feeding, and add salt right away. Should I start with the max dose (1lb per 50 gal- any idea what that is in tbsp?) or start them in fresh and work up to that dose by the end of the day they arrive?

Yes they have their own water in that tank- all our fresh water tanks are separate! I could not imagine working on a central system (yuck!) . I do try to keep their equipment (nets, buckets etc) separate, or open new things for them, but this is not always possible, so yes cross contamination is entirely possible.

I do think the milky-ness is their slime coat. It is sometimes criss crossy across their bodies, or in tiny patches. I gave metro because most of them had pale feces and one fish started shaking. I have seen this before and in the past they all started shaking, so I thought I would jump on it.
I added metro to their water and thawed food, then refroze the rest. I followed seachem's directions and only put in their max dose. I put the metro in the tank while the fish were in a bucket then acclimated them to it, instead of adding the fish first. I only added the metro to water once, I usually only add it once a day after the water change.

How hard is it on discus to add strait chlorinated water and water conditioner at the same time? As mentioned I don't have time every day to pre-mix in buckets, and if the boss sees my big sloppy mess from doing so I'll probably get heck, but I want to continue the big water changes every day.

I'll try to check on which breeder the fish are coming from. All I know is they come in with our Singapore fish, the supplier is "Wet Pets".

Jhhnn

07-31-2009, 08:49 PM

I hesitate to contribute to some of these threads, because my own experience leads me to sometimes contradict those with much more experience.

It's unnecessary and often counterproductive to change the water pH for young domestic discus. Wilds and breeders are a different story. My own sub-adults thrive in water w/ KH~85ppm, GH~145ppm, pH 7.8-8.0. Others are highly successful at greater hardness and higher pH.

The whole premise behind drop and plop is that the off-gassing of CO2 will cause sudden ph rise in the bag water and conversion of ammonium to ammonia, damaging the fish. Nobody offers any data, however, merely assertion. My own tests indicate that such isn't true. If you're concerned, add a single drop of prime to each bag when opened. If that won't effectively prevent damaging conversion of ammonium to ammonia, the fish will already be dead from ammonia poisoning.

As tcyiu offers, don't overdo it w/ salt. 1tbsp/10gal is considered therapeutic. Dim lighting and covering the front of the tank are also good ideas, as is good aeration under any circumstances. The fish should remain in the tank during water changes if you add prime first, then tapwater.

Dark fish w/ white poop, no appetite is indicative of internal parasites, likely hexamita or similar, possibly worms. Flashing, gasping or scratching indicate external parasites or bacterial gill infection, even gill damage from bad shipping water. Excess slime also indicates external parasites.

I really don't like formalin based meds except as a last resort, and even then as an emergency dip. They'll wipe the biofilter entirely, and the last thing sick fish need is a dead filter. We all used 'em years ago, because they were all we had.

Some of my discus recently exhibited signs of flukes- rapid respiration, persistent scratching and flashing. It never got very bad, because of good husbandry, daily siphoning of detritus and fluke eggs. I tried prazipro, which the fish tolerated extremely well, but had little effect. The next thing I tried, with some misgivings, was Clout, w/ malachite green, metro, and trichlorphon. The fish tolerated it extremely well, and the first dose, on a monday, had excellent effects. Mindful of the fluke lifecycle, I dosed again on friday, then again the next wednesday, removing meds in between w/ water changes and carbon filtration. It's been a couple of weeks, and there's no sign of relapse. My biofilter seemed unaffected, as well. Might be something for you to try, as it attacks a broad spectrum of internal and external parasites, but not bacteria...

The sad truth is that it's hard for lfs to obtain truly healthy discus stock at a price allowing them to move the fish at a reasonable price to the end consumer. Nor are they in the business of keeping fish, but rather of selling them. If the price is too high, that doesn't happen. Most lfs around here simply don't offer them for those reasons. The few discus I've seen in lfs recently, well, I wouldn't touch 'em with a pole. You may be able to do better- good luck.

Daniella

07-31-2009, 11:03 PM

Are you using formalin in strong dip? because I used formalin quite a few time in prolonged baths for many days and it never affected my biofilter.

I use PP more often and that definitly wipe out the biofilter. What I do is to remove the bioballs from my filters before I do the treatment and then put it back after. Chance of any parasites remaining attached to the bioballs are there but I rinse it with clean dechlorinated water to help. Biofilter is back to full in a day or 2.

Very nice to hear your experience with Clout. I have some and was weary of using it but if I need to I will probably use it. Flukes are one tough thing to get rid of but if you are free of flukes for a few weeks, you'll probably be ok.

I thought that it was dimetridazole in Clout and not metronidazole??? Dimetridazole is a good med to treat cryptobia as well.

Ingredients in Clout:

Trichlorfon
Dimetridazole
Malachite green

I really don't like formalin based meds except as a last resort, and even then as an emergency dip. They'll wipe the biofilter entirely, and the last thing sick fish need is a dead filter. We all used 'em years ago, because they were all we had.

Some of my discus recently exhibited signs of flukes- rapid respiration, persistent scratching and flashing. It never got very bad, because of good husbandry, daily siphoning of detritus and fluke eggs. I tried prazipro, which the fish tolerated extremely well, but had little effect. The next thing I tried, with some misgivings, was Clout, w/ malachite green, metro, and trichlorphon. The fish tolerated it extremely well, and the first dose, on a monday, had excellent effects. Mindful of the fluke lifecycle, I dosed again on friday, then again the next wednesday, removing meds in between w/ water changes and carbon filtration. It's been a couple of weeks, and there's no sign of relapse. My biofilter seemed unaffected, as well. Might be something for you to try, as it attacks a broad spectrum of internal and external parasites, but not bacteria...

The sad truth is that it's hard for lfs to obtain truly healthy discus stock at a price allowing them to move the fish at a reasonable price to the end consumer. Nor are they in the business of keeping fish, but rather of selling them. If the price is too high, that doesn't happen. Most lfs around here simply don't offer them for those reasons. The few discus I've seen in lfs recently, well, I wouldn't touch 'em with a pole. You may be able to do better- good luck.

Darrell Ward

08-01-2009, 12:24 PM

So basically you are doing somewhat slow acclimation, thats why you are getting ammonia burns.

Float the bags to get near the same temp and then net the fish directly into the tank.

Eddie

I wholeheartedly agree. As soon as you open sealed bags with dirty water in them, the fresh air allows ammonia to start building. "Drop and plop" discus, like Eddie said. It's the best way. Get them into fresh water ASAP. Avoid the ammonia burns, and you can skip the meds. Avoid putting yourself in the position that you need to medicate fish. Fresh, clean water cures many ills all by itself. Everybody rushes to medicate discus. Step back, calm down, use common sense, and 99% of the time, you can avoid meds altogether. After all, discus lived in the wild long before humans started medicating them. K.I.S.S. has always served me well, "keep it simple stupid"!

Jhhnn

08-01-2009, 08:13 PM

bs6749

08-01-2009, 08:19 PM

Meh. We could go round and round wrt the new and trendy method of drop and plop, but it's pointless w/o numbers, actual data.

We all have test kits, right? So let's use 'em on shipping water, find out the truth. I already have-

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showpost.php?p=550147&postcount=63

Anybody else care to employ some scientific method, or is this one of those faith-based deals?

I don't anticipate receiving new fish anytime rsn, so that's all I have to contribute. There are, I'm sure, several posters here who will. Perhaps they'll take a little bit of time to help us all achieve scientific enlightenment.

Maybe I should start a thread- "Shipping water data" where such information can be compiled in one place...

You could do a simple experiment without using fish in a bag. Simply get a source of ammonia and put it into a bag along with some acid to make the ammonia molecules convert into ammonium ions. Seal it up, let it sit a couple of hours, open the bag and see if the pH raises. My guess is that it won't change more than .2 over the course of 30 minutes if you leave it open. Now if you were to put alkaline water into the bag it would be a different story. Alkaline water from a tank, (the drip method) most certainly can alter the pH and thus convert ammonium ions back into ammonia molecules. I think I will try this experiment myself. I was thinking about doing it with fish, but I realized that it isn't necessary to have the fish in the bag for this experiment. An ammonia source is an ammonia source, and Bag Buddies just takes the ammonia molecules and makes it ammonium ions by dissolving H+ ions in solution.

Jhhnn

08-01-2009, 09:04 PM

You could do a simple experiment without using fish in a bag. Simply get a source of ammonia and put it into a bag along with some acid to make the ammonia molecules convert into ammonium ions. Seal it up, let it sit a couple of hours, open the bag and see if the pH raises. My guess is that it won't change more than .2 over the course of 30 minutes if you leave it open. Now if you were to put alkaline water into the bag it would be a different story. Alkaline water from a tank, (the drip method) most certainly can alter the pH and thus convert ammonium ions back into ammonia molecules. I think I will try this experiment myself. I was thinking about doing it with fish, but I realized that it isn't necessary to have the fish in the bag for this experiment. An ammonia source is an ammonia source, and Bag Buddies just takes the ammonia molecules and makes it ammonium ions by dissolving H+ ions in solution.

Seems reasonable enough, except it doesn't account for some of the water technology available to shippers...

I think people need to be aware of the difference between free ammonia and ammonium. this chart helps for people who don't have test kits that'll measure free ammonia and total ammonia separately. I know the Seachem kits do, they're what I use, and they're the only way to tell what's really going on if you use prime or similar...

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Ammonia.htm

rickztahone

08-01-2009, 09:36 PM

tcyiu

08-01-2009, 09:37 PM

... Avoid putting yourself in the position that you need to medicate fish. Fresh, clean water cures many ills all by itself. Everybody rushes to medicate discus. Step back, calm down, use common sense, and 99% of the time, you can avoid meds altogether. ...

Hear, hear!!!

I am glad that this site is not sponsored by the companies selling meds. Otherwise this thread would get shut down. :-)

I completely concur that medicine should be a LAST resort.

Tim

bs6749

08-01-2009, 10:20 PM

Seems reasonable enough, except it doesn't account for some of the water technology available to shippers...

Just wondering what "water technology" it doesn't account for? I'm sure it could easily be incorporated into the experiment.

Jhhnn

08-01-2009, 10:38 PM

Just wondering what "water technology" it doesn't account for? I'm sure it could easily be incorporated into the experiment.

Bag buddies, as you mentioned, also prime and similar preparations...

It's OK with me if you want to engage in this on a theoretical level, but I don't think there's any substitute for real life field data...

i was just wondering if you could explain ammonia burns that fish acquire while shipping if not from the ammonia toxicity. i'm not challenging you since you have the proof from your tests, i was just wondering what the reasoning behind the ammonia burns are. i will receive some fish in the near future and i'd like to avoid that this time around.

I'm not challenging the fact that ammonia burns can occur during shipping. Not at all. I am challenging drop and plop advocates to provide actual data for the assertion that such burns occur when the bags are opened and pH rises sharply because of the off-gassing of CO2, thus converting ammonium to ammonia...

In my own data gathering, I didn't see the pH rise rapidly, at all, nor did I see free ammonia rise to detectable levels even when it did rise. I suspect that the latter is due to the use of water conditioning agents by my shipper, Kenny. If your shipper isn't using them, maybe you want a new shipper...

Eddie

08-01-2009, 10:43 PM

Bag buddies, as you mentioned, also prime and similar preparations...

It's OK with me if you want to engage in this on a theoretical level, but I don't think there's any substitute for real life field data...

I'm not challenging the fact that ammonia burns can occur during shipping. Not at all. I am challenging drop and plop advocates to provide actual data for the assertion that such burns occur when the bags are opened and pH rises sharply because of the off-gassing of CO2, thus converting ammonium to ammonia...

In my own data gathering, I didn't see the pH rise rapidly, at all, nor did I see free ammonia rise to detectable levels even when it did rise. I suspect that the latter is due to the use of water conditioning agents by my shipper, Kenny. If your shipper isn't using them, maybe you want a new shipper...

Right Jhhnn, but your experience is a single one, may have to get more data on proving your theory. Go ahead and write down numbers and don't forget to take pictures of your fishes fins when they are finally in tank. ;)

Eddie

rickztahone

08-01-2009, 10:58 PM

Bag buddies, as you mentioned, also prime and similar preparations...

It's OK with me if you want to engage in this on a theoretical level, but I don't think there's any substitute for real life field data...

I'm not challenging the fact that ammonia burns can occur during shipping. Not at all. I am challenging drop and plop advocates to provide actual data for the assertion that such burns occur when the bags are opened and pH rises sharply because of the off-gassing of CO2, thus converting ammonium to ammonia...

In my own data gathering, I didn't see the pH rise rapidly, at all, nor did I see free ammonia rise to detectable levels even when it did rise. I suspect that the latter is due to the use of water conditioning agents by my shipper, Kenny. If your shipper isn't using them, maybe you want a new shipper...

ahh, i see. thanks for explaining that. i guess i just want a sure way of not subjecting my fish to ammonia burns next time

ifixoldhouses

08-01-2009, 11:14 PM

once you open the bag the water turns very toxic, I've heard, and turning off the filter for 2 hours can't be good either.

Jhhnn

08-01-2009, 11:33 PM

Right Jhhnn, but your experience is a single one, may have to get more data on proving your theory. Go ahead and write down numbers and don't forget to take pictures of your fishes fins when they are finally in tank. ;)

Eddie

Well, Eddie, I'm the one using traditional methods, methods that have been described and articulated in the literature by the experts for decades... It's worked for countless hobbyists along the way. It seems to work even better today if shippers use the water treatment technology available to them...

Those who advocate radical departure from that can easily obtain the data to support what they already believe... if such data will, indeed, support it.

And I'm certainly willing to listen, just not to mere assertions based on what could easily be flawed reasoning. That's why we need more data if we're to take a truly scientific approach.

I try to incorporate a lot of that into my belief structure, avoid confusion between what I might believe to be true and what really is true...

Hell, drop and plop might actually be better- show me.

Eddie

08-01-2009, 11:38 PM

Well, Eddie, I'm the one using traditional methods, methods that have been described and articulated in the literature by the experts for decades... It's worked for countless hobbyists along the way. It seems to work even better today if shippers use the water treatment technology available to them...

Those who advocate radical departure from that can easily obtain the data to support what they already believe... if such data will, indeed, support it.

And I'm certainly willing to listen, just not to mere assertions based on what could easily be flawed reasoning. That's why we need more data if we're to take a truly scientific approach.

I try to incorporate a lot of that into my belief structure, avoid confusion between what I might believe to be true and what really is true...

Hell, drop and plop might actually be better- show me.

I mean ultimately its not to say one is better than the other IMO as I have done both for many years. The OP had problems with fin damage, which can cause even more damage to an already stressed fish. Avoiding that entirely gives the fish a one up IMO. But hey, the more problems the merrier for some, I try to avoid them. Does it work out that way, not normally. LOL

Eddie

Jhhnn

08-02-2009, 10:51 AM

I wanted to clear up some issues raised by Daniella on page 2.

Years ago, aquarists didn't have much of an arsenal to deal with flukes, but one of the tools was short duration formalin baths & moving the fish to clean water. Some still do it today-

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/breeding_genetics/fry_rearing/formalin_dip.shtml

As the author points out, it's tricky...

WRT Clout, the fomulation may have changed over time, and AP may well sell different formulations in different markets... dunno. The current MSDS from the AP site states metro-

http://www.aq-products.com/APpro/clouttablets.htm

There's currently a lot of environmental concerns wrt dimetridazole here in the US. Again, I don't know if that's warranted or not, but the stuff is apparently quite difficult to obtain...

wgtaylor

08-02-2009, 01:16 PM

I was trying to be too nice to the discus; next time I will just float them and net them into the tank, then add all that salt and feed a few times a day. I'm learning so much already!

That one thing could probably solve most of the problems you are having.
After a couple weeks then you should see if there are any that require additional treatments.

For what it's worth, this year in the North American Discus Competition here at Simply Discus, there were 9 contestants, each received 6 discus. All discus were identical and all shipped from the same shipper. 8 contestants used the drop and plop successfully. 1 contestant used slow acclimation and suffered mild ammonia burns. Lessons learned.
You may find other useful info from the contestants newly acquired discus, http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?f=167

The longer they are in the shipping bags the more damage can be done by ammonia burns. I have had some that just never recover completely. I know slow acclimation has been recommended for years but drop and plop has shown to be a more successful method for shipped fish.
Cut the top of the bag off, immediately reach in with your hand and gently slip the discus in it's new tank. No lights, no food for 24 hours.
Bill

Darrell Ward

08-02-2009, 02:41 PM

Just because the slow drip method was recommended 30 or 40 years ago, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way. I've used drop and plop even on discus in which the bags had leaked water to the point that only the fish's head was in water. They survived. I've never had an issue with drop and plop with probably over 100 fish all together, which also doesn't mean it's the best way, but I like the odds so far. My own experience is all the "scientific data" I need. :D

Daniella

08-02-2009, 05:31 PM

Interesting. I have a box of Clout here and the ingredient listed on the box is:

1,2-dimethyl-5-nitroimidazole which is dimetridazole the stuff that kill cryptobia. that's in Canada

wereas on the MSD sheet from the USA site it is listed:

IMIDAZOLE-1-ETHANOL,2-METHYL-5-NITRO, which is metronidazole and don't kill cryptobia.

so no wonder the confusion, as in Canada Clout contain dimetridazole and in the USA it contain metronidazole.

The expiration date on my box is june 2010, so it's not old stuff either.

Anybody bought a box of Clout in the USA can tell us what is the ingredient listed on their box? metro or dimetridazole?

WRT Clout, the fomulation may have changed over time, and AP may well sell different formulations in different markets... dunno. The current MSDS from the AP site states metro-

http://www.aq-products.com/APpro/clouttablets.htm

There's currently a lot of environmental concerns wrt dimetridazole here in the US. Again, I don't know if that's warranted or not, but the stuff is apparently quite difficult to obtain...