A Conundrum - what do you really think?

[Mr Wild]

I have been reading and getting help from SD members for awhile now trying to establish my discus tank and my knowledge of these wonderful creatures and while doing so I have also noticed a huge divide in their care.

One train of thought is to go BB and as sterile and clean as possible, the other (Heiko Bleher for instance) in biotype, so sand and driftwood and plants.

I have always been a planted tank gal, never will really see myself change, oh I have BB tanks and they are there in my lounge room along with my biotype display tank but I will never love them.
So all this got me thinking about my discus and the sickness I had and have had to deal with sometimes with success other times not. The one constant fish I have had for many months now is my PB he was bought from the lfs when he was about 3in TL today he would be 5.5 to 6in. He was never over fed, he was just plopped straight into the community tank I had at the time, he has grown and he has never needed any treatment. Then there is the pair I have set aside now- again from the lfs, at least by this time I knew to QT! So after qt they went into the mix, again others fell ill – they did not. They have spawned twice in the display tank so I guess that means they are happy.

My point to all this rambling?
Are we as hobbyists making our fish sick? By BB sterile as possible tanks are we allowing our discus to develop their immunity? I am starting to think – no. Perhaps as in nature the weakest should fall to allow the strength of the strain to prevail?
I know we invest many $$ into our hobby so we like to keep the fish as healthy as possible for as long as we can, but does this really build robust fish?

I would like to hear others points of view on this from other well read devotees!

[Ed13]

Are we as hobbyists making our fish sick? By BB sterile as possible tanks are we allowing our discus to develop their immunity? I am starting to think – no. Perhaps as in nature the weakest should fall to allow the strength of the strain to prevail?


I think not. Gravel, plants, wood, etc or BB themselves don't contribute or detract from the health and the build up of the inmune system in the fish. An aquarium is a closed system and only goes in what WE put in. Good or bad. That's why it's important to quarantine everything alive that goes in and in my opinion sterilize all other items.
This also means that each fish has developed a certain resistance to their environment, whether it be Amazonia or a breeders farm. Since like I mentioned,the aquarium it's a closed system the inmune system of the current residents or the new ones may receive a shock from the exchage in pathogens from one another. Much like explorers and conquistadors of the past spreading desease that they had developed inmunity to natives that were succumbing to them.


I look at it as if we should not think of developing their inmune system, but rather not compromise it. So QT, sterilize, fishless cycle(when possible), or choose new equipment when possible, maintain good water quality and maintain them in good condition.

This is of course my opinion.

[Mr Wild]

I think not. Gravel, plants, wood, etc or BB themselves don't contribute or detract from the health and the build up of the immune system in the fish. An aquarium is a closed system and only goes in what WE put in.

I agree but what off the tiny amounts of food etc that grows its own bacteria?


Much like explorers and conquistadors of the past spreading disease that they had developed immunity to natives that were succumbing to them.

My point exactly - are we stopping this interchange therefore breeding / raising weaker fish?


maintain good water quality and maintain them in good condition.

I agree good water quality is imperative- after-all the amazon is hardly a muddy pond but there must be countless things flowing down that river that has an affect on all fish life - are we being too careful?

More questions I am afraid I am not disputing your take on things just rather questioning what we has hobbyists have come to rely on as "normal" discus keeping.

[Scribbles]

One of the few things that most if not all discus keepers can agree on is that no matter what your set up it MUST be kept clean. BB is the easiest way to maintain a clean tank. I think that a lot of the sickness comes from introducing new tankmates and just plain old stress. I have always kept my discus in planted tanks with substrate. Once the discus are added to the tank the system is closed. No other fish are added ever. This way the pecking order remains steady. Otherwise every time a new fish is added the discus are subjected to new pathogens as well as re-establishing the pecking order. In a biiotope style tank there are hiding places for those who get picked on. I assume that discus can have "off" days when they have a headache or just don't feel up to being "front and center" all of the time so having a quiet private place might help to reduce stress. Having other things in the tank to focus on besides each other might also reduce some of the aggression. I have never medicated my discus but I have just attributed that to luck.

Chris

[William Palumbo]

I agree with what Ed said, but I also have to add that I have experienced, more than once, Discus which were raised in sterile environments with 100% RO water, UV sterilization, ozone, ect... usually take no time at all to succumb to any bug that goes around in the fishroom. It hits them and hits them hard! I have lost tanks of these "sterile" Discus back when the "plague" was going strong. My Discus raised with minimal filtration and equipment, looked bad...but all survived. Intresting enough, my wilds were not affected at all...Bill

[Ed13]

I agree but what off the tiny amounts of food etc that grows its own bacteria?
My opinion is that if anything they are relevant to the mini-cosystem of the tank but not to the the fish



My point exactly - are we stopping this interchange therefore breeding / raising weaker fish?

YES, we aim to avoid death to our own fish, so we stop the interchange. But, remember once you put them in an aquarium or farm that becomes their new world and they only need to survive in THAT world. It's impossible to assume you can synchronize the inmune response of all the ornamental fish in the world. Fish from this farm will always be different from that farm even if they are the same species raised in the same manner.




I agree good water quality is imperative- after-all the amazon is hardly a muddy pond but there must be countless things flowing down that river that has an affect on all fish life - are we being too careful?
We are not being too careful. Fish in the Amazon have adapted to the Amazon just like those domestics raised in Asia have.



More questions I am afraid I am not disputing your take on things just rather questioning what we has hobbyists have come to rely on as "normal" discus keeping.
This is good.
This are only my views after all.

[Eddie]

I understand your train of though Kath, The Boy in the Plastic Bubble theory basically. Keeping them contained from germs so they never develop any immunities. That does seem possible actually.

As stated though, cleanliness, regardless will definitely avoid outbreaks. So the LFS discus are the roughnecks. LOL

Eddie

[Jhhnn]

I see it as an ease of maintenance issue and as a stocking level issue wrt bare bottom tanks. I don't think they're really any "cleaner" than well maintained ornamental tanks, just that they're a lot easier to keep that way, and that stocking/ feeding levels can be a lot higher for the same amount of effort from the hobbyist...

It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that hobbyists who successfully keep discus in biotopes do so at much lower stocking levels than those who enjoy the same success in BB tanks. It also seems to me that mixing fish varieties from dubious sources, meaning the vast majority of lfs, is just begging for trouble, regardless of QT. Organisms that are well tolerated by some species are problematical for others, and that cuts both ways...

[TankWatcher]

It's not so easy in Australia to buy a whole tankful of discus in one go. When we go to LFS, if we are lucky there might be 1 or 2 nice discus at any one time. A whole tank full of quality discus - not impossible, but also not often to be found.

There is always Darren & Rod in QLD, who no doubt could ship a whole tankful of quality discus at a time, but other than that, not sure ????

For the most part, people like Kath & I need to buy our discus from LFS & in dribs & drabs. It won't be a whole tank full & we will add to the stock (after QT of course) until we have our tank full.

I think what you say makes sense Kath, but we are stuck. We don't know what each new discus might bring with it. So we QT new fish, wait the appropriate time, add the new fish to display tank - then hold our breath & wait.

I will never love BB either. Like you, I have them for certain purposes (QT new fish & growing up juveniles). I've tried various ways to like them better. Painted the bottom; painted a sand /glue solution to the bottom or painted & then sprinkled sand onto a foam base on which the tank sits. But I can't fool myself. They're still BB tanks and I'm a planted tank gal.

The discus in my planted tank are my healthiest discus. They are adults & they only get 50% wc once a week. I'm tempting fate & probably will bring down a great plague of sickness to my planted tank as punishment for saying they're healthy (oh, I hope not)

[Eddie]

It's not so easy in Australia to buy a whole tankful of discus in one go. When we go to LFS, if we are lucky there might be 1 or 2 nice discus at any one time. A whole tank full of quality discus - not impossible, but also not often to be found.

There is always Darren & Rod in QLD, who no doubt could ship a whole tankful of quality discus at a time, but other than that, not sure ????

For the most part, people like Kath & I need to buy our discus from LFS & in dribs & drabs. It won't be a whole tank full & we will add to the stock (after QT of course) until we have our tank full.

I think what you say makes sense Kath, but we are stuck. We don't know what each new discus might bring with it. So we QT new fish, wait the appropriate time, add the new fish to display tank - then hold our breath & wait.

I will never love BB either. Like you, I have them for certain purposes (QT new fish & growing up juveniles). I've tried various ways to like them better. Painted the bottom; painted a sand /glue solution to the bottom or painted & then sprinkled sand onto a foam base on which the tank sits. But I can't fool myself. They're still BB tanks and I'm a planted tank gal.

The discus in my planted tank are my healthiest discus. They are adults & they only get 50% wc once a week. I'm tempting fate & probably will bring down a great plague of sickness to my planted tank as punishment for saying they're healthy (oh, I hope not)

Hey Robyn, I would just go through Darren and Rod to be honest. There is nothing in the world that would make me sacrifice quality. Darren and Rods fish are second to none, top quality fish and I would die to live near them. Look at me, I have to drop close to a grand for half dozen fish but its the only route I'll go to keep the quality.


Take care,

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Wow thanks for chiming in everyone! It has made this thread really interesting to read and ponder!
I have to agree that BB is way easier to keep clean quick syphon drain water wash sides down and her up. Did my planted to day, suphoned, suctioned sand and moved it around moved driftwood lifted plabts pruned and plucked refilled.....mmmmmm Why did I say I liked them?
But the fact remains the "roughnecks" (thanks Eddie) have remained the healthiest by far amoungst my group of round fishies so I have to agree with Bill. Maybe we need em tuff over here!

[Mr Wild]

I agree with what Ed said, but I also have to add that I have experienced, more than once, Discus which were raised in sterile environments with 100% RO water, UV sterilization, ozone, ect... usually take no time at all to succumb to any bug that goes around in the fishroom. It hits them and hits them hard! I have lost tanks of these "sterile" Discus back when the "plague" was going strong. My Discus raised with minimal filtration and equipment, looked bad...but all survived. Intresting enough, my wilds were not affected at all...Bill

Gotta agree with that Bill!


I understand your train of though Kath, The Boy in the Plastic Bubble theory basically. Keeping them contained from germs so they never develop any immunities. That does seem possible actually.

As stated though, cleanliness, regardless will definitely avoid outbreaks. So the LFS discus are the roughnecks. LOL

Eddie

No compromise on cleanliness as such we still need wc afterall I would not like to live in poop but do we over do it or has it been done so much in the past that these strains nHAVE to have it?


I see it as an ease of maintenance issue and as a stocking level issue wrt bare bottom tanks. I don't think they're really any "cleaner" than well maintained ornamental tanks, just that they're a lot easier to keep that way, and that stocking/ feeding levels can be a lot higher for the same amount of effort from the hobbyist...

It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that hobbyists who successfully keep discus in biotopes do so at much lower stocking levels than those who enjoy the same success in BB tanks. It also seems to me that mixing fish varieties from dubious sources, meaning the vast majority of lfs, is just begging for trouble, regardless of QT. Organisms that are well tolerated by some species are problematical for others, and that cuts both ways...


Agreed



It's not so easy in Australia to buy a whole tankful of discus in one go. When we go to LFS, if we are lucky there might be 1 or 2 nice discus at any one time. A whole tank full of quality discus - not impossible, but also not often to be found.

There is always Darren & Rod in QLD, who no doubt could ship a whole tankful of quality discus at a time, but other than that, not sure ????

For the most part, people like Kath & I need to buy our discus from LFS & in dribs & drabs. It won't be a whole tank full & we will add to the stock (after QT of course) until we have our tank full.

I think what you say makes sense Kath, but we are stuck. We don't know what each new discus might bring with it. So we QT new fish, wait the appropriate time, add the new fish to display tank - then hold our breath & wait.

I will never love BB either. Like you, I have them for certain purposes (QT new fish & growing up juveniles). I've tried various ways to like them better. Painted the bottom; painted a sand /glue solution to the bottom or painted & then sprinkled sand onto a foam base on which the tank sits. But I can't fool myself. They're still BB tanks and I'm a planted tank gal.

The discus in my planted tank are my healthiest discus. They are adults & they only get 50% wc once a week. I'm tempting fate & probably will bring down a great plague of sickness to my planted tank as punishment for saying they're healthy (oh, I hope not)

Way to go Rob!

[Jhhnn]

No compromise on cleanliness as such we still need wc afterall I would not like to live in poop but do we over do it or has it been done so much in the past that these strains nHAVE to have it?

I don't think that discus' need for clean water is a function of domestication, at all. If anything, domesticated strains are likely more tolerant of disease organisms and poor water quality than their wild cousins. I love the look of wild discus, but I've never kept them because they're apparently more demanding than domesticated fish...

Fish breeders actually have it better than breeders of some other domesticated animals. They're free to outcross to other strains and backcross all the way to wild fish if they desire, if they see it as a way to maintain vigor in their own strains. Can't do that with dogs, cattle, horses, etc. because of the paperwork, the pedigrees.

[mmorris]

I Then there is the pair I have set aside now- again from the lfs, at least by this time I knew to QT! So after qt they went into the mix, again others fell ill – they did not...Are we as hobbyists making our fish sick? By BB sterile as possible tanks are we allowing our discus to develop their immunity?

This sounds like the argument put out for humans - we are creating a sterile environment for ourselves, and the result is allergies. I personally think it is clever PR to place blame, not on corporate polluters, but on the victims. I don't buy it. Many recommend the sacrificial victim (hero?) Once new discus complete quarantine, one from the old is placed with one from the new and if either gets sick, then one fish has no resistance to a particular pathogen. It doesn't mean it has no resistance period. I try to quarantine that way, but I haven't had much luck. I keep screwing that phase up. :)

[Chad Hughes]

Kath,

You've got some really good information and excellent points of view out of this thread. So far, a great read! I personally don't really know what to tell you. LOL!

I've raised tropical fish for a long time and I have always used a standard. As natural as possible. I like plants and substrate (typically sand) and I feel that it makes the environment a bit less stressful to fish. Yo ueliminate shadows in the tank, break sight lines, improve water qualtiy, etc. The only high tech thing that I add (typically) is CO2 for the plants. It just improves their health and growth. I use ozone on the contest tank since it's a contest. LOL!

Anyway, I can't say whether my methods are better or worse than anothers or if they impact the biological processes of the fish. I have a 150 gallon tank that has (last time I counteed) over 22 discus, not to mention dithers and bottom feeders, so maybe 30? This tank is four years old. Never had a disease, death or worry. Heavily planted, CO2, plant ferts, medium to high light, 80% water change weekly. Nothing fancy. I don't have algae problems, I don;t wipe the sides of the tank, I clean the filter once a month. It's balanced.

I know the first thing that typically comes out of peoples mouths is "would you recommend this to a beginner?". Of course not. It took me years to get planted tanks mastered. I can't see someone new to discus trying to master both plants and discus over night. It's all about experience. I've never kept fish in BB tanks unless they are in QT (new fish) or a pair is breeding. That's about it. Anyway, just wanted to give my $.02. I look forward to hearing other's input!

Best wishes!

[snoopy65]

As a newbie to discus, you all may take my opinion with a grain of salt and I understand that, but...I have been keeping tropical fish for years. My phylosopy is this. I try to keep all of my fish as comfortable as possible. I try to keep nitrates down to 5-10, warmer water fish in warmer water and cooler water fish in cooler, give caves to the fish who like caves and wood to the fish who like wood, etc. Less stress = less disease because their imune system is stronger.

So look at it as if it were your house. How comfortable would you be in a house with just pictures and furnace and bare windows(filter, heater, and the aquarium itself)? Wouldn't you be more comfortable with something to sit on and curtains or blinds, a kitchen chair maybe (substrate)? Or maybe even more comfortable with a recliner and couch (driftwood)? Or be able to breathe easier because the air is being cleaned with an ionizer (plants)?

Now, I realize that bare bottom is easier for the fish keeper to keep clean, but do you leave your house empty just so you can run the vacuum?

[Eddie]

As a newbie to discus, you all may take my opinion with a grain of salt and I understand that, but...I have been keeping tropical fish for years. My phylosopy is this. I try to keep all of my fish as comfortable as possible. I try to keep nitrates down to 5-10, warmer water fish in warmer water and cooler water fish in cooler, give caves to the fish who like caves and wood to the fish who like wood, etc. Less stress = less disease because their imune system is stronger.

So look at it as if it were your house. How comfortable would you be in a house with just pictures and furnace and bare windows(filter, heater, and the aquarium itself)? Wouldn't you be more comfortable with something to sit on and curtains or blinds, a kitchen chair maybe (substrate)? Or maybe even more comfortable with a recliner and couch (driftwood)? Or be able to breathe easier because the air is being cleaned with an ionizer (plants)?

Now, I realize that bare bottom is easier for the fish keeper to keep clean, but do you leave your house empty just so you can run the vacuum?

You see, this would make sense if the darn discus would just crap in the toilet and not all over the tank. LMAO

Eddie

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

just something I want to point out...

I always hear people talking about how plants and substrate and driftwood make a less stressful environment for our fish, or they offer hiding places for them....but I was thinking...also my buddy and I have gotten into this before...

the way I see it is, these domestic fish that we get from the breeders and sponsors know nothing else but BB tanks, right? they grow up their whole lives in bare, sterile, grow-out tanks with other discus. you know? they have never seen plants or substrates.

so, whenever anyone sees my BB tanks and asks questions like "they have nowhere to hide, or wont they like the tank better with some plants and gravel?" ...I just tell them that BB tanks are all these fish have ever seen. they don't know any better.

you know what I mean guys?? doesnt really have much to do with anything, just wanted to share how I feel about that.

[snoopy65]

You see, this would make sense if the darn discus would just crap in the toilet and not all over the tank. LMAO

Eddie

lmao....you do have a point there! My point is, I know having stuff in the tank is a pain, but wouldn't it be less stressful on the fish albeit more stressful on the fish owner.

[mmorris]

but wouldn't it be less stressful on the fish albeit more stressful on the fish owner.

There's no evidence that I know of for that. :)

[TankWatcher]

Hey Kath, you've opened the door to a great discussion, where you'll pull in lots of different opinions and thoughts, but doubt there'll be a definitive answer that we all agree on. But you probably knew that & just sought the debate itself. You already have seen which side of the fence I sit, which is more towards the planted tank side.

IMO, just because a fish knows no better & has never lived in other than BB, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be happier if you did give it what it would have had in nature, had it been born wild. Many fishkeepers started this hobby before the internet. Those hobbyists knew no other way. Then they discovered the internet & then SD. Most like it better this new way, with the internet & it's forums - regardless that previously they knew nothing about this.

I'm older than some other members, so when I was a teenager there were no mobile phones, I started my working life using typewriters. I knew no better. I know better now & consider a mobile & a PC as essential items in my life.

Battery hens know of no better existance, but wouldn't they be happier if they lived their life in a nicer environment? I'm no where near saying that I think BB is cruel, so please don't think that I am. Just saying that, IMO, the fact that either the fish or the chicken know of no other way, doesn't mean they mightn't appreciate the change to a more natural enviroment. Just my theory, is all.

I know of no evidence either, that confirms that the fish are less stressful in either BB or planted. Unless a fish is sick, how do you tell if it's happy or not. Just because it swims & eats? I'm not so sure that really says it all.

One thing I have noticed is that time & again I read the advice from those that have BB not to put an ornament in the tank. Often said is "give the fish somewhere to hide & it will". We all may interpret the behaviour of this fish, who now hides because it can, differently. I say that if a fish in BB will immediately hide if you give it somewhere to hide, means the fish was always stressed. Just before, it could do nothing about it.

In my planted tank, there are plenty of hiding places. Plenty of them. Do they hide there though? No, they don't - unless something has startled them. Even then, they only stay hidden for a moment. They peek out, see no danger & straight back out they come. They are always swimming around in the open areas of the tank.

True, they don't poop in a toilet but all over the tank. But that's what wc are for.

Because of my bias towards planted, I can come up with the above to support my bias;) I fully expect those that prefer BB to see big flaws in my logic:p But that's ok - we're all good friends here :)

Kath, I do see logic in what you suggest and I do think that even we need some sort of exposure to germs to build up immunity.

Interesting to read all the opinions.

[Mr Wild]

I don't think that discus' need for clean water is a function of domestication, at all. If anything, domesticated strains are likely more tolerant of disease organisms and poor water quality than their wild cousins. I love the look of wild discus, but I've never kept them because they're apparently more demanding than domesticated fish...

Fish breeders actually have it better than breeders of some other domesticated animals. They're free to outcross to other strains and backcross all the way to wild fish if they desire, if they see it as a way to maintain vigor in their own strains. Can't do that with dogs, cattle, horses, etc. because of the paperwork, the pedigrees.


mmmmm well I breed sheep and we try and back cross and line breed for the characteristics we want and one of those is disease resistance so we have less use of any treatments so this too could be done with fish.


This sounds like the argument put out for humans - we are creating a sterile environment for ourselves, and the result is allergies. I personally think it is clever PR to place blame, not on corporate polluters, but on the victims. I don't buy it. Many recommend the sacrificial victim (hero?) Once new discus complete quarantine, one from the old is placed with one from the new and if either gets sick, then one fish has no resistance to a particular pathogen. It doesn't mean it has no resistance period. I try to quarantine that way, but I haven't had much luck. I keep screwing that phase up. :)

LOL well we all have our challenges!


Kath,

You've got some really good information and excellent points of view out of this thread. So far, a great read! I personally don't really know what to tell you. LOL!

I've raised tropical fish for a long time and I have always used a standard. As natural as possible. I like plants and substrate (typically sand) and I feel that it makes the environment a bit less stressful to fish. Yo ueliminate shadows in the tank, break sight lines, improve water qualtiy, etc. The only high tech thing that I add (typically) is CO2 for the plants. It just improves their health and growth. I use ozone on the contest tank since it's a contest. LOL!

Anyway, I can't say whether my methods are better or worse than anothers or if they impact the biological processes of the fish. I have a 150 gallon tank that has (last time I counteed) over 22 discus, not to mention dithers and bottom feeders, so maybe 30? This tank is four years old. Never had a disease, death or worry. Heavily planted, CO2, plant ferts, medium to high light, 80% water change weekly. Nothing fancy. I don't have algae problems, I don;t wipe the sides of the tank, I clean the filter once a month. It's balanced.

I know the first thing that typically comes out of peoples mouths is "would you recommend this to a beginner?". Of course not. It took me years to get planted tanks mastered. I can't see someone new to discus trying to master both plants and discus over night. It's all about experience. I've never kept fish in BB tanks unless they are in QT (new fish) or a pair is breeding. That's about it. Anyway, just wanted to give my $.02. I look forward to hearing other's input!

Best wishes!

Thanks so much Chad for your 2cents worth. This has become a very interesting and friendly theoretical debate indeed and I am loving the read!

[Mr Wild]

As a newbie to discus, you all may take my opinion with a grain of salt and I understand that, but...I have been keeping tropical fish for years. My phylosopy is this. I try to keep all of my fish as comfortable as possible. I try to keep nitrates down to 5-10, warmer water fish in warmer water and cooler water fish in cooler, give caves to the fish who like caves and wood to the fish who like wood, etc. Less stress = less disease because their imune system is stronger.

So look at it as if it were your house. How comfortable would you be in a house with just pictures and furnace and bare windows(filter, heater, and the aquarium itself)? Wouldn't you be more comfortable with something to sit on and curtains or blinds, a kitchen chair maybe (substrate)? Or maybe even more comfortable with a recliner and couch (driftwood)? Or be able to breathe easier because the air is being cleaned with an ionizer (plants)?

Now, I realize that bare bottom is easier for the fish keeper to keep clean, but do you leave your house empty just so you can run the vacuum?

I have to agree I think BB is for the keeper not the fish.


You see, this would make sense if the darn discus would just crap in the toilet and not all over the tank. LMAO

Eddie

LMAO Eddie trust you! LOLOLOL


just something I want to point out...

I always hear people talking about how plants and substrate and driftwood make a less stressful environment for our fish, or they offer hiding places for them....but I was thinking...also my buddy and I have gotten into this before...

the way I see it is, these domestic fish that we get from the breeders and sponsors know nothing else but BB tanks, right? they grow up their whole lives in bare, sterile, grow-out tanks with other discus. you know? they have never seen plants or substrates.

so, whenever anyone sees my BB tanks and asks questions like "they have nowhere to hide, or wont they like the tank better with some plants and gravel?" ...I just tell them that BB tanks are all these fish have ever seen. they don't know any better.

you know what I mean guys?? doesn't really have much to do with anything, just wanted to share how I feel about that.

Now that is an interesting point and one I needed to ponder! But in a way it might help my theory as well. If fish only raised in BB sterile do not know any other environment (your point) then it may hold true for the immune systems too! LOL knew I could get it just needed to think!



lmao....you do have a point there! My point is, I know having stuff in the tank is a pain, but wouldn't it be less stressful on the fish albeit more stressful on the fish owner.

YES YES YES


There's no evidence that I know of for that. :)


We don't need evidence we are theorising and debating not researching evidence.



Hey Kath, you've opened the door to a great discussion, where you'll pull in lots of different opinions and thoughts, but doubt there'll be a definitive answer that we all agree on. But you probably knew that & just sought the debate itself. You already have seen which side of the fence I sit, which is more towards the planted tank side.

IMO, just because a fish knows no better & has never lived in other than BB, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be happier if you did give it what it would have had in nature, had it been born wild. Many fishkeepers started this hobby before the internet. Those hobbyists knew no other way. Then they discovered the internet & then SD. Most like it better this new way, with the internet & it's forums - regardless that previously they knew nothing about this.

I'm older than some other members, so when I was a teenager there were no mobile phones, I started my working life using typewriters. I knew no better. I know better now & consider a mobile & a PC as essential items in my life.

Battery hens know of no better existance, but wouldn't they be happier if they lived their life in a nicer environment? I'm no where near saying that I think BB is cruel, so please don't think that I am. Just saying that, IMO, the fact that either the fish or the chicken know of no other way, doesn't mean they mightn't appreciate the change to a more natural enviroment. Just my theory, is all.

I know of no evidence either, that confirms that the fish are less stressful in either BB or planted. Unless a fish is sick, how do you tell if it's happy or not. Just because it swims & eats? I'm not so sure that really says it all.

One thing I have noticed is that time & again I read the advice from those that have BB not to put an ornament in the tank. Often said is "give the fish somewhere to hide & it will". We all may interpret the behaviour of this fish, who now hides because it can, differently. I say that if a fish in BB will immediately hide if you give it somewhere to hide, means the fish was always stressed. Just before, it could do nothing about it.

In my planted tank, there are plenty of hiding places. Plenty of them. Do they hide there though? No, they don't - unless something has startled them. Even then, they only stay hidden for a moment. They peek out, see no danger & straight back out they come. They are always swimming around in the open areas of the tank.

True, they don't poop in a toilet but all over the tank. But that's what wc are for.

Because of my bias towards planted, I can come up with the above to support my bias;) I fully expect those that prefer BB to see big flaws in my logic:p But that's ok - we're all good friends here :)

Kath, I do see logic in what you suggest and I do think that even we need some sort of exposure to germs to build up immunity.

Interesting to read all the opinions.

Yes Robyn I wanted to bring a real brain teaser to liven things up and this thread is a great source of friendly debate I am loving it.

Thanks you all for your times and thoughts I am really enjoying seeing every one's points of view on the matter and I hope I have stimulated some thought on it as well for whilst it might seem a little pie in the sky there could be some truth to it that perhaps as hobbyists we should be keeping in the back of our mind.

As humans we have managed to take so many antibiotics the bugs have beaten us into mutating into strains we can no longer kill, MRSA for example.

So is it really too far a stretch to consider if we continue to raise our fish in sterile environments that we maybe effecting their immune system? Maybe not!

[mmorris]

The purpose of a bb tank is so the environment can be kept as clean as possible so juvies can reach their maximum potential. This is why people suggest adults for those who want a planted tank. New discus are nervous and it takes some time to adjust and feel comfortable - an hour, or perhaps days. If there is something to hide behind, it takes them that much longer. The debate is not whether discus should EVER be kept in a planted tank, but rather, when. There is no evidence, based on the observation of countless people with a long history raising discus, that discus are any `happier' in a planted tank. They let us know if they are stressed. Re. the battery chickens - they live a short, abused life and it makes for poor comparison with cared-for discus in a bb tank. I raise my discus in clean tanks. Sterile? Absolutely not. I stick my hand in there regularly. I raise worms in the basement and those go in without much ado. God knows what lives on the sponge filters! How can one reasonably steralize a tank?

[mikel]

Well, the well planted tanks that I usually see and admire actually are not particularly accurate as far as trying to duplicate the natural environment of the wild discus. The home of the wild discus is rather bleak. In any case, I am not sure you would consider my 4 BD discus, who grew up in absolutely BB tank with daily water changes and my hand playing "chasee" with them and who gobble Bh and peck at my nails during water changes, "unhappy". I have to shoo them away from the siphon for fear they might get their big flat body sucked and hurt themselves.

They are effectively domesticated, and with good water, food and not a care in the world, why would they want anything else? I dont buy the "live free or die" argument; these are domesticated strains, and without humans, they would not exist. mike:)

[TankWatcher]

Re. the battery chickens - they live a short, abused life and it makes for poor comparison with cared-for discus in a bb tank. I raise my discus in clean tanks.I'm not comparing battery chickens to discus. They are world apart. A BB tank is also worlds apart from a battery hen's cage.
Battery hens know of no better existence, but wouldn't they be happier if they lived their life in a nicer environment? I'm no where near saying that I think BB is cruel, so please don't think that I am. I mustn't have been clear in what I was trying to say, so sorry about that. The 2nd sentence in my above quote, was just me trying to let you guys know that I was not in any way suggesting BB was a cruel existence. What I am trying to say is that I disagree with the theory that just because a discus knows nothing better than a BB, that is not a reason to say it mightn't enjoy a bio type tank more. That's all.

I use BB myself - but I just don't like them. I tried growing up juvi's before in a planted tank & I stunted them. Others have done it successfully, but for the majority of us, IMO, it's best to do the growing up of juvis in a BB.

I agree that neither my BB's nor my planted would be sterile environments.

[Jhhnn]

They are effectively domesticated, and with good water, food and not a care in the world, why would they want anything else?

My big blue boneheads still like to play peck and chase, if less than when they were younger, and some have become rather territorial. Without looking, I can describe the approximate location of each fish in the tank and be right most of the time. There are multiple sponge filters they seem to use as markers of sorts... That changes, of course, when anybody approaches, as they think the sole purpose of humans is to feed them...

I rather suspect that at least some of them will want to reproduce, but, yeh, mikel is pretty much on target wrt what serves the purposes of their fishy brains and bodies...

And I agree w/ mmorris about the whole "sterile" concept. It's not really what we're trying to maintain, at all. The aquarium environment teems with microscopic life of all sorts, and there's a fair amount of living interchange w/ the air we breathe, particularly in warm humid climates like Malaysia. From the pics I've seen, breeders there don't even cover their tanks, for the most part. When it rains, tiny droplets containing life are created, splashed up from whatever surfaces there are, and those droplets are free to drift wherever they will... Insects carry hitch hikers, as well.

What we're trying to do with QT is to eliminate or reduce the introduction of pathogens with their hosts, our new fish, not to maintain any sort of sterility.

In truth, fish are a lot like humans in the sense that they're host to a variety of organisms that do them no harm, at least when the organisms are where they belong-

http://www.bookrags.com/research/human-commensal-and-mutual-organism-ansc-03/

There's a balance for both fish and people achieved through healthy living conditions and lack of unusual stress. That doesn't address low immunity levels in a given population, unfortunately, as in the effect of european diseases on native americans. Any immunity that an individual acquires from exposure and survival is not heritable- that sort of immunity in any population is achieved only through attrition, and I'm not willing to allow such Darwinian forces to shape my discus population- not if I can help it, anyway...

[Mr Wild]

The purpose of a bb tank is so the environment can be kept as clean as possible so juvies can reach their maximum potential. This is why people suggest adults for those who want a planted tank,

Ahh this is then more for the keeper, easier to keep clean to enable good growth. OK I can handle that.



Well, the well planted tanks that I usually see and admire actually are not particularly accurate as far as trying to duplicate the natural environment of the wild discus. The home of the wild discus is rather bleak. In any case, I am not sure you would consider my 4 BD discus, who grew up in absolutely BB tank with daily water changes and my hand playing "chasee" with them and who gobble Bh and peck at my nails during water changes, "unhappy". I have to shoo them away from the siphon for fear they might get their big flat body sucked and hurt themselves.

They are effectively domesticated, and with good water, food and not a care in the world, why would they want anything else? I dont buy the "live free or die" argument; these are domesticated strains, and without humans, they would not exist. mike:)

Not sure if this was directed to one of my posts or not but I do not make that point either. I was asking the question basically by our keeping methods are we having an effect on the immune system of our discus was my point.


My big blue boneheads still like to play peck and chase, if less than when they were younger, and some have become rather territorial. Without looking, I can describe the approximate location of each fish in the tank and be right most of the time. There are multiple sponge filters they seem to use as markers of sorts... That changes, of course, when anybody approaches, as they think the sole purpose of humans is to feed them...

I rather suspect that at least some of them will want to reproduce, but, yeh, mikel is pretty much on target wrt what serves the purposes of their fishy brains and bodies...

And I agree w/ mmorris about the whole "sterile" concept. It's not really what we're trying to maintain, at all. The aquarium environment teems with microscopic life of all sorts, and there's a fair amount of living interchange w/ the air we breathe, particularly in warm humid climates like Malaysia. From the pics I've seen, breeders there don't even cover their tanks, for the most part. When it rains, tiny droplets containing life are created, splashed up from whatever surfaces there are, and those droplets are free to drift wherever they will... Insects carry hitch hikers, as well.

What we're trying to do with QT is to eliminate or reduce the introduction of pathogens with their hosts, our new fish, not to maintain any sort of sterility.

In truth, fish are a lot like humans in the sense that they're host to a variety of organisms that do them no harm, at least when the organisms are where they belong-

http://www.bookrags.com/research/human-commensal-and-mutual-organism-ansc-03/

There's a balance for both fish and people achieved through healthy living conditions and lack of unusual stress. That doesn't address low immunity levels in a given population, unfortunately, as in the effect of european diseases on native americans. Any immunity that an individual acquires from exposure and survival is not heritable- that sort of immunity in any population is achieved only through attrition, and I'm not willing to allow such Darwinian forces to shape my discus population- not if I can help it, anyway...

Your post really had me thinking and yes I read the url you posted as well and no I would not like Darwinian forces to shape my discus population either.

Perhaps the same analogy can be used as with my example of our sheep? We raise and cross for vigor, growth, disease resistance etc. Fish appear to be crossed for colour and shape and size but perhaps as keepers we could also add in disease resistance to the mix?

As previously stated I have one PB that has been in the display tank since day 1 and never fallen ill, never had to be separated for any reason and my 2 turqs are looking like they will be the same, these will be the ones I will try and breed with not others I have had to nurse along at any stage and from that maybe I will see first hand the evidence of my theory?

Thanks for such interesting replies it has made me think and read and wonder so many people with so many different slants on the subject it has been great.

[Chad Hughes]

Perhaps the same analogy can be used as with my example of our sheep? We raise and cross for vigor, growth, disease resistance etc. Fish appear to be crossed for colour and shape and size but perhaps as keepers we could also add in disease resistance to the mix?

As previously stated I have one PB that has been in the display tank since day 1 and never fallen ill, never had to be separated for any reason and my 2 turqs are looking like they will be the same, these will be the ones I will try and breed with not others I have had to nurse along at any stage and from that maybe I will see first hand the evidence of my theory?

Thanks for such interesting replies it has made me think and read and wonder so many people with so many different slants on the subject it has been great.

You may have something here Kath!

Best wishes!

[Eddie]

There was a poll a while back on what traits you felt were most important for Discus breeding purposes and one of the options was disease resistance or strong immune system. I felt that one was one of the best options myself. ;)

Found the poll, from Al

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67331&highlight=poll


Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

There was a poll a while back on what traits you felt were most important for Discus breeding purposes and one of the options was disease resistance or strong immune system. I felt that one was one of the best options myself. ;)

Found the poll, from Al

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67331&highlight=poll


Eddie

It's a little sad that health rated so low. I realize that discus, especially remarkable discus, are phenominal to look at but I think that health needs to be higheer up on the ladder. Who want's a sick pretty discus? LOL!

Best wishes!

[Eddie]

It's a little sad that health rated so low. I realize that discus, especially remarkable discus, are phenominal to look at but I think that health needs to be higheer up on the ladder. Who want's a sick pretty discus? LOL!

Best wishes!

Exactly Chad, if your trying to build a perfect house, it won't even matter with a crappy foundation!

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

You may have something here Kath!

Best wishes!

I hope so I would love to kow my babies are healthy stock...we will see.


There was a poll a while back on what traits you felt were most important for Discus breeding purposes and one of the options was disease resistance or strong immune system. I felt that one was one of the best options myself. ;)

Found the poll, from Al

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67331&highlight=poll


Eddie

Wow Eddie didn't even know we had a poll ...isn't it interesting to see what people wanted first? AMAZING.

But I think it makes my point, we have maybe not being thinking about this the right way round and if we continue to breed for colour and shape and lose sight of health we might run the risk of captive bred discus living shorter lives afterall this all takes years to happen maynot even happen in my lifetime but eh they said that about global warming too!

[Scribbles]

This is such an interesting thread Kathy, great topic. I love to watch my discus "limbo" under the driftwood and nibble at the plants and can't help but think that they are happy and less stressed. Which should contribute to good health.

It surprises me that health isn't one of if not the top concern of discus keepers and breeders. Isn't this why we buy discus from sponsers and breeders instead of the lfs? It would be nice if there were a way to perform medical tests on discus breeding stock to insure good health. Much like we do with dogs and livestock.

Chris

[Jhhnn]

Given the fish farm environment where most discus are bred and raised, there has to be a certain amount of disease resistance that comes with the territory. Breeders are constantly bringing in new stock from other breeders and even wild fish to cross with their own, and the general environment is far from sterile. But it's healthy, with lots of fresh water, a variety of foods, and excellent waste removal.

OTOH, fish whose immune systems are truly defective simply won't survive there, and fish from such healthy environments may not have what it takes to thrive in poor environments, either. From a breeder's perspective, there's no value in creating or allowing poor environmentals to shape the genetics of their stock. It doesn't create more fish to sell, and I'm sure they're well aware that the attrition rate among fish they sell is atrocious once the fish are no longer in their care. Stress, exposure to new pathogens and poor care in the retail chain and end consumers' tanks pretty much assure that. The only way they can mitigate that is by providing fish that are truly healthy and vigorous...

If anything, successful hobbyist breeders are more likely to unknowingly breed away from disease resistance in their isolated populations. If I started a breeding program and never introduced new fish, I'd never know that had happened several generations down the road. well, other than having a lot of complaints from my customers...

About the best we can do as hobbyists is to exercise due diligence, exploit the resources available to us, this forum being probably the best of them. Whenever possible, we should know the source and the intermediate care providers of fish we purchase. I realize not everybody has that privilege. I also think, however, that many who don't think they do really could if they planned, saved, and exercised some patience, making the purchase of half a dozen fish or more from somebody like Kenny a wothwhile investment in future satisfaction... I'll be the first to admit that I'm really lucky in many respects, in having the ability to do that- that doesn't mean it's always blind luck, however...

[mmorris]

Ahh this is then more for the keeper, easier to keep clean to enable good growth. OK I can handle that.



Yup, pure selfishness on my part. :confused: Surely you know that it is extremely difficult to keep conditions clean enough for juvies in a planted tank! People have done it and have then not recommended it. My impression is that it is so difficult that in spite of the best efforts of the keeper, the discus often ends up compromised. It's not about laziness.

[Jhhnn]

Yup, pure selfishness on my part. :confused: Surely you know that it is extremely difficult to keep conditions clean enough for juvies in a planted tank! People have done it and have then not recommended it. My impression is that it is so difficult that in spite of the best efforts of the keeper, the discus often ends up compromised. It's not about laziness.

Yup. I'm of the opinion that many of the planted tank discus glamour shots we see from vendors are posed, like models on the beach... the models don't live there, and neither do the fish...

[mmorris]

LOL I never thought of that.

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

call me crazy, but to me, theres nothing nicer than looking at my bright white spotless tank with nothing in it except big beautiful, vibrant discus gliding around.(right Eddie?:p) I may have a planted tank some day, but I love the "just the fish" look of a nicely painted BB tank. its so simple and serene to me. I like ALL of the attention to be on the beautiful discus ;)

this is a great thread by the way Kath :) a good read.

[Mr Wild]

I am so pleased everyone has had time to chime in and give their opinions. Jhhnn you make some good points that made me think and what your saying does make sense, I suppose as long as health is paramount and not only size and shape we will win the battle so to speak. I also take your point about "buying in bulk" from reputable sources, unfortunately in Aus we don't have that luxury so we do have to accept fish from different sources and that may be what sets us apart in the long run and why we face disease? Unsure just surmising, but I know for me its planted and breed from healthy stock - disease free and resistant stock as far as possible. Hope this thread helps someone thinking of starting even if it just makes people really think I think it has been worthwhile.

[vitz]

both approaches can work equally well, and achieve the same end goal

as long as both are approached w/the right degrees of sensibility and logic/practice that each requires

it boils down more to the personal tastes of the keeper, imo

[Bgroovy2]

both approaches can work equally well, and achieve the same end goal

as long as both are approached w/the right degrees of sensibility and logic/practice that each requires

it boils down more to the personal tastes of the keeper, imo

You are so right! There is more then one way to approach fish husbandry. I personelly hate the look of bare bottom tanks for display tanks. I will go to the trouble of doing the extra work to have a nice little peice of the Amazon in my living room!

[Mr Wild]

:):)