Growing Juveniles Question

[Cardinal]

Hello,

I have 6 juve's (1 1/2") in a separate 30g tank and i'm trying to grow them up a little bit b/4 I put them in my main 150g tank.

In the 150 I have 4 med size discus, 3 angels and 2 silver $$'s. The silver $$'s will be moved to a new tank soon.

The 6 juve's are doing great in the 30g all eating black worms at a good clip. I feed them 3 times a day and do 10-15% water changes twice a day. The tank is also glass bottem.

How long should I wait and at what size should the juve's be before I introduce them into the larger tank???

I have only had them about 2 weeks, got them from a breeder out of San Diego. I was pleased with the price & quality. All are showing good color.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[Daniella]

I am not sure that 3 times a day is enough for such small discus. I always read that 6 times a day is required.

I guess if you feed live food and they don't eat them all, they can eat some more later. Not sure though if that's good.

Are you only feeding black worms?

Also 30% water change per day might not be enough or they might grow faster with more water change.

There is a lot of good info on this forum to read about growing up small discus. Take a look and you will find lots of info.



Hello,

I have 6 juve's (1 1/2") in a separate 30g tank and i'm trying to grow them up a little bit b/4 I put them in my main 150g tank.

In the 150 I have 4 med size discus, 3 angels and 2 silver $$'s. The silver $$'s will be moved to a new tank soon.

The 6 juve's are doing great in the 30g all eating black worms at a good clip. I feed them 3 times a day and do 10-15% water changes twice a day. The tank is also glass bottem.

How long should I wait and at what size should the juve's be before I introduce them into the larger tank???

I have only had them about 2 weeks, got them from a breeder out of San Diego. I was pleased with the price & quality. All are showing good color.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

[Cardinal]

Thanks Daniella for the info.

YES, they only eat the worms, I started with flakes and tetra bits, they ate them but once I fed them the worms that's all they will eat. They go crazy for them.

I'll start changing more water and feeding a little more to see if that will help.

But if all goes well and they do grow, what is a good size for them to be added to the bigger tank??

I can't find out that part by looking thru the forum.

[j_li8]

How big are the other ones? If you move them over too soon then it could be a problem as they might get lost and they will have to compete with the larger ones for food. Have you tried making a beef heart mix?

[Daniella]

I would say about 4 inches is a good size, not before that. 4 inches does not include the tail but it is mesured from the base of the tail to the tip of the lip.

Problem with feeding only black worms is that they probably lack in some type of nutrient. I am no expert in food so maybe someone else can give you advise on this.

Beefheart mix should be accepted and a good mix contain vitamines and veggie too.



Thanks Daniella for the info.

YES, they only eat the worms, I started with flakes and tetra bits, they ate them but once I fed them the worms that's all they will eat. They go crazy for them.

I'll start changing more water and feeding a little more to see if that will help.

But if all goes well and they do grow, what is a good size for them to be added to the bigger tank??

I can't find out that part by looking thru the forum.

[Chad Hughes]

Hello,

I have 6 juve's (1 1/2") in a separate 30g tank and i'm trying to grow them up a little bit b/4 I put them in my main 150g tank.

In the 150 I have 4 med size discus, 3 angels and 2 silver $$'s. The silver $$'s will be moved to a new tank soon.

The 6 juve's are doing great in the 30g all eating black worms at a good clip. I feed them 3 times a day and do 10-15% water changes twice a day. The tank is also glass bottem.

How long should I wait and at what size should the juve's be before I introduce them into the larger tank???

I have only had them about 2 weeks, got them from a breeder out of San Diego. I was pleased with the price & quality. All are showing good color.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

I have placed 2" discus in large tanks with 3 -4" discus in the past without issues. What I wouldn't do is put a 1.5" fish in with a 5" fish. The larger fish will intimidate the smaller ones. How big are your "medium" size discus?

As for the feedings of the babies, if three times a day is the best you can do, then that's OK but I would vary the diet. A good beefheart mix is a definate plus! 5 daily feedings is best IMO for good, consistent growth.

Your water changes are more than adequate for the number of small fish that you have in the 30 gallon tank, this is assuming that your water parameters are all in check. If you test and get ammonia or nitrite, then it's time to change more water. You shouldn't have this issue with a good cycled filter. I have raised 6 juvies in a 30 gallon with your exact water changes until they were 2.5" without any problems. Once the exceed 3" you need to get them to a 55 gallon or better.

If you don't mind me asking, who was the breeder in San Diego? ust curious. You can PM me that information if you like. Anyway, hope this information helps.

Best wishes!

[rickztahone]

Chad has given you some great advise. only a few things i would add. first, feeding ONLY blackworms might be a problem down the line when they will not eat anything else. its best to get them off the blackworms now that they are young. if you keep feeding the flakes and pellets they will take it eventually. feed the blackworms as a treat only every few days. second, do not put those fish in a 150 until they are much bigger. they get intimidated in such a huge tank. also, its more difficult for them to find food. lastly, doing daily WC's on a 150 is not fun. i would put them in there in about 6 months. in the meantime i would transfer them into a 55 or so in a month or two. check water parameters daily and you should be fine

[vitz]

if you feed a good pellet/flake in the morning as the first feeding (when your fish are most likely at their hungriest)-you really should have no major difficulty getting any discus to eat both manufactured foods AND blackworms or bloodworms, ime

the discus i feed tend to prefer to eat pelletized/granular foods better after the food has sat for a short while in the tanks, after it's softened up a bit

tetra color bits, and dainichi pellets are greedily eaten by all (various color strains from Stendker) along with blackworms

YOu decide what your fish will eat-and rarely will a healthy fish of any species, other than obligate piscivores, corralivores, etc., starve itself to death when a good food is available, even if the fish has previously been 'spoiled' from a constant diet of a 'gourmet level' food

you just need to be more stubborn than the fish ;)

feeding any one food exclusively, long term, is rarely a great idea- for any animal-unless that one food is comprised of many ingredients that represent a full nutritional requirement base

one thing you can do to speed up acceptance of any manufactured food, is to place some drops of either frozen bloodworm 'juice' on it and let it sit for about 1/2 minute to absorb the taste and smell of the worms-but that's rarely an absolute necessity

i personally am not a huge fan of beefheart-without going into specifics, there are far better foods around-just because a fish goes 'gaga' over a food item, is relatively cheap, and recommended by Wattley ( :P ) doesn't mean it's ideal to use, long term-it should be reserved for use by people who also understand its downside (relatively large fat content)-beefheart got a rep more from breeders and keepers that were doing discus before the advent of really high quality manufactured feeds developed by fairly extensive scientific investigation into fish nutrition, because it helped them raise large amounts of fish relatively quickly, due to its eager acceptance ;)

having said that-as a component of a varied diet, w/a good base of whole/complete/enriched foods-all of the 'natural' foodstuffs can be very beneficial/utilitarian

-if you feed live blackworms, and are keeping the worms at home in the fridge, as i do-rinse them daily, to minimize any 'funk' in their container, which can indeed become a breeding ground for bacteria/protozoans, that might lead to disease/infection issues down the road

-my .02

[Chad Hughes]

Vitz,

Interesting point about te beefheart. I'm sure the foods available today are far better than they were in the 70s.

Best wishes!

[Daniella]

Except that beefheart mix is not only beefheart. A good mix contain much more and it is probably quite balanced.

Too fat? don,t small fish need the fat anyway?



Vitz,

Interesting point about te beefheart. I'm sure the foods available today are far better than they were in the 70s.

Best wishes!

[Eddie]

6 juvies in a 30, not for too long. I'd probably look adding them at around 2.5" as keeping them in the 30 would not be advisable.

Also, all this talk about beefheart, there are plenty of other mixes out there. You just gotta do some research to find out the nutritional needs of juvenile discus. There are some excellent recipes in Andrew Soh's 2nd book that are very easy to make. I use all seafood (fish/shrimp/clams) in place of beefheart. Its worked out better than well for me so its a thing you'll just have to decide on. ;)

Don't forget there's more than one way...to skin a cat.

Take care and best of luck on your juvies!

Eddie

[Cardinal]

Excellent, excellent information from everyone,

I really enjoy the experiences everyone has shared.

Thanks again for the input and I'll make it work.

In regards to the breeder I got them from, I found
him on aquabid and his name is Harlan Zimmerman.

Hopefully it's OK to provide the info here, I'm not getting
anything out of it, just passing along a name of someone
that provided a good deal. I orderd 6 fish for under $110 and
that included shipping. I thought that was a great deal.

[vitz]

Except that beefheart mix is not only beefheart. A good mix contain much more and it is probably quite balanced.

Too fat? don,t small fish need the fat anyway?


there's a world of difference between mammalian fats/oils and fish fats/oils

(and for the most part, it's not a good difference ;) )

[Moon]

Beef hart has less fat than some of the other meat receipies. I usually trim all of the fat from the BH before adding to the mixture.

[vitz]

being new here, i don't want to come off as an overly 'knowitall-ish' arrogant snoot, but...

a: you aren't getting rid of all the fat ;) , and (again)

b: mammalian fats and oils are DIFFERENT from fish fats and oils-in a BAD way, as far as the fish are concerned

there are far smarter/better things to use than beefheart, where fish health/nutrition is concerned

i, for one-do not want to have unproccessable deposits of fat/oils building up in parts of my fish's internal anatomy where they don't belong, and where my fish can't get rid of them easily, if at all

again-most of the hype surrounding beefheart is just that-hype

possibly well meaning and well intended hype that predates what is known about beefheart today-but now continued more as a marketing ploy, than a genuine advantage/concern for any fish's long term health, compared to other foodstuffs one has available today

some research on solubilities/characteristics on animal fats/oils at typical aquarium temperatures, vs mammalian body temperatures, and other characteristics of mammalian vs fish fats/oils-should make this all quite clear :)

[Eddie]

being new here, i don't want to come off as an overly 'knowitall-ish' arrogant snoot, but...

a: you aren't getting rid of all the fat ;) , and (again)

b: mammalian fats and oils are DIFFERENT from fish fats and oils-in a BAD way, as far as the fish are concerned

there are far smarter/better things to use than beefheart, where fish health/nutrition is concerned

i, for one-do not want to have unproccessable deposits of fat/oils building up in parts of my fish's internal anatomy where they don't belong, and where my fish can't get rid of them easily, if at all

again-most of the hype surrounding beefheart is just that-hype

possibly well meaning and well intended hype that predates what is known about beefheart today-but now continued more as a marketing ploy, than a genuine advantage/concern for any fish's long term health, compared to other foodstuffs one has available today

some research on solubilities/characteristics on animal fats/oils at typical aquarium temperatures, vs mammalian body temperatures, and other characteristics of mammalian vs fish fats/oils-should make this all quite clear :)

I do not use beefheart but I used to in the past. I'd do it again in a second. I don't know what you mean by it only being hype. Its well known that beefheart puts on size and thickness not by word of mouth but by generations of use. Even today, there are amazing homemade recipes out there that can't be topped nutrition wise by any company. Creating a balance to any mix is what is most important.

Are you really concerned about oils stuck in your fishes guts, isn't there anything else to be worried about. ;)

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

Excellent, excellent information from everyone,

I really enjoy the experiences everyone has shared.

Thanks again for the input and I'll make it work.

In regards to the breeder I got them from, I found
him on aquabid and his name is Harlan Zimmerman.

Hopefully it's OK to provide the info here, I'm not getting
anything out of it, just passing along a name of someone
that provided a good deal. I orderd 6 fish for under $110 and
that included shipping. I thought that was a great deal.

That's a pretty good deal considering shipping is about $70.

[vitz]

I do not use beefheart but I used to in the past. I'd do it again in a second. I don't know what you mean by it only being hype. Its well known that beefheart puts on size and thickness not by word of mouth but by generations of use. Even today, there are amazing homemade recipes out there that can't be topped nutrition wise by any company. Creating a balance to any mix is what is most important.

Are you really concerned about oils stuck in your fishes guts, isn't there anything else to be worried about. ;)

Eddie

i never said 'only being hype:

"again-most of the hype surrounding beefheart is just that-hype"

the hype i'm referring to are the claims that lead hobbyists to think that beefheart is the be-all and end-all of foods for raising discus at optimal speed and health-nothing could be further from the truth, and there are MANY far superior foodstuffs to use

i never said that beefheart DOESN'T grow discus fast, or (pardon the expression) , 'beef them up' :P


"Even today, there are amazing homemade recipes out there that can't be topped nutrition wise by any company."

there are amazing homemade and company produced foods-your statement is hyperbole-plenty of individuals make 'so-so' recipes, too ;)

your statement implies that you've analyzed/tested EVERY barnd/type of manufactured fish food made by all companies, and compared them to all 'homemades' ;)

tropical fish nutrition was barely even a science back in 'the golden age of beefheart' (wattley, axelrod, et al) and has advance in HUGE strides since then-the only real issue that manufacturers need to still adress is PO4 content-ime/imo


and yes-i do indeed think that any fishkeeper who's keeping their charges for 'the long haul' should be concerned w/ non-metabolizable fat/oil bodies embedded in their fish's musculature-long term, it shortens the fish's potential life span, and CAN (not WILL) lead to other health issues (this is never an issue w/breeders/suppliers of discus who are merely growing out fry/juvys as fast as possible to a market ;)

fwiw-i've been making my own foods, on and off, for both sw and fw fishes since the late '70s, have spawned and raised plenty of various fw species, and sw damsels, on prepared foods alone-i'm fully aware of the superior nutritional value of foods that are not processed

i also have some years exp.as a hatchery co-manager in commercial food fish farming-dealing with the initial growout/raising of fry from egg to 'fingerling' stage-where speed of growth/weight gain efficiency is crucial, and looked at very closely-even the slightest 'off' from a weight of feed vs weight gain of fish/time can mean hundreds of thousands of dollars lost/wasted on a year's crop of hundreds to thousands of metric tonnes of fish/year

i'm simply saying that there are plenty of foods that are as good, and better, than beefheart, without the detrimental side effects incurred from permanently lodged fat bodies, or oil bodies (mammalian oils congeal into solid masses at aquarium temps) that fish can get from beefheart

the biggest advantage to beefheart is that it's dirt cheap, thanks to a worldwide massively subsidized beef industry

the best foods for high quality protiens/fats/oils/amino acids to feed to fish comes from.....




fish ;)

[Eddie]

i never said 'only being hype:

"again-most of the hype surrounding beefheart is just that-hype"

the hype i'm referring to are the claims that lead hobbyists to think that beefheart is the be-all and end-all of foods for raising discus at optimal speed and health-nothing could be further from the truth, and there are MANY far superior foodstuffs to use

i never said that beefheart DOESN'T grow discus fast, or (pardon the expression) , 'beef them up' :P


"Even today, there are amazing homemade recipes out there that can't be topped nutrition wise by any company."

there are amazing homemade and company produced foods-your statement is hyperbole-plenty of individuals make 'so-so' recipes, too ;)

your statement implies that you've analyzed/tested EVERY barnd/type of manufactured fish food made by all companies, and compared them to all 'homemades' ;)

tropical fish nutrition was barely even a science back in 'the golden age of beefheart' (wattley, axelrod, et al) and has advance in HUGE strides since then-the only real issue that manufacturers need to still adress is PO4 content-ime/imo


and yes-i do indeed think that any fishkeeper who's keeping their charges for 'the long haul' should be concerned w/ non-metabolizable fat/oil bodies embedded in their fish's musculature-long term, it shortens the fish's potential life span, and CAN (not WILL) lead to other health issues (this is never an issue w/breeders/suppliers of discus who are merely growing out fry/juvys as fast as possible to a market ;)

fwiw-i've been making my own foods, on and off, for both sw and fw fishes since the late '70s, have spawned and raised plenty of various fw species, and sw damsels, on prepared foods alone-i'm fully aware of the superior nutritional value of foods that are not processed

i also have some years exp.as a hatchery co-manager in commercial food fish farming-dealing with the initial growout/raising of fry from egg to 'fingerling' stage-where speed of growth/weight gain efficiency is crucial, and looked at very closely-even the slightest 'off' from a weight of feed vs weight gain of fish/time can mean hundreds of thousands of dollars lost/wasted on a year's crop of hundreds to thousands of metric tonnes of fish/year

i'm simply saying that there are plenty of foods that are as good, and better, than beefheart, without the detrimental side effects incurred from permanently lodged fat bodies, or oil bodies (mammalian oils congeal into solid masses at aquarium temps) that fish can get from beefheart

the biggest advantage to beefheart is that it's dirt cheap, thanks to a worldwide massively subsidized beef industry

the best foods for high quality protiens/fats/oils/amino acids to feed to fish comes from.....




fish ;)

Its all good, I can see you have extensive knowledge in keeping discus but if you want to finish this conversation via private message, that'd be great. Since this thread wasn't started on the pros and cons of using beefheart. Feel free.....anytime to share your expertise with me, outside of this person's thread for respect to the entire forum. :D


Eddie

[vitz]

while the thread wasn't started dealing exclusively on the pros and cons of using beefheart, it was started on the subject of growing and raising juveniles, with a fair amount of feeding/foods mentioned-so i thought it was relevant, as foods/nutrition is a major part of fish husbandry, and had already been touched on in the discussion

i personally don't feel that trying to show objective sides to perceptions/knowledge of foods/feeding on a juvenile growout question was disrespectful to the OP

fwiw-i wouldn't say my experience in discus specifically is extensive (nor did i claim it was) -especially with regard to numbers of fish cared for personally, or consecutive years husbanding them personally-i'm not a 'discus specialist' as much as i'm a 'fish specialist' -this doesn't make my information any less relevant, or correct, though ;)

my apologies if i seemed to be hijacking the thread

[Eddie]

while the thread wasn't started dealing exclusively on the pros and cons of using beefheart, it was started on the subject of growing and raising juveniles, with a fair amount of feeding/foods mentioned-so i thought it was relevant, as foods/nutrition is a major part of fish husbandry, and had already been touched on in the discussion

i personally don't feel that trying to show objective sides to perceptions/knowledge of foods/feeding on a juvenile growout question was disrespectful to the OP

fwiw-i wouldn't say my experience in discus specifically is extensive (nor did i claim it was) -especially with regard to numbers of fish cared for personally, or consecutive years husbanding them personally-i'm not a 'discus specialist' as much as i'm a 'fish specialist' -this doesn't make my information any less relevant, or correct, though ;)

my apologies if i seemed to be hijacking the thread


Yeah, no problem. Send me a PM if you want to continue the discussion. Sorry Cardinal, sometimes things take a turn. Hopefully someone can bring this back on track.

Eddie

[Daniella]

Problme is often discus will not eat company produced food. Mine only eat bits of it and spit most out. The only one that is more accepted is the Ocean discus flakes. They all jump on beefheart and they grow fast!


Do you have any study proving that beefheart shorten their life and other detrimental effect that you state? I would like to learn more about this.




there are amazing homemade and company produced foods-your statement is hyperbole-plenty of individuals make 'so-so' recipes, too ;)


i'm simply saying that there are plenty of foods that are as good, and better, than beefheart, without the detrimental side effects incurred from permanently lodged fat bodies, or oil bodies (mammalian oils congeal into solid masses at aquarium temps) that fish can get from beefheart

the biggest advantage to beefheart is that it's dirt cheap, thanks to a worldwide massively subsidized beef industry

the best foods for high quality protiens/fats/oils/amino acids to feed to fish comes from.....




fish ;)

[H82LOS3]

I love this thread, more more info haha

[vitz]

Problme is often discus will not eat company produced food. Mine only eat bits of it and spit most out. The only one that is more accepted is the Ocean discus flakes. They all jump on beefheart and they grow fast!


Do you have any study proving that beefheart shorten their life and other detrimental effect that you state? I would like to learn more about this.

to start, as food for thought, and to also address your issue of palatability/acceptance of foods by discus, per my own experience:

'palatability' doesn't necessarily mean 'good'-i always jump on malted milk balls, cheetos, and beef jerky, and would eat them all day long if i could, and would probably be able to survive for a very long time on that diet-possibly with no externally apparent ill effects-i don't think anyone would offer the premise that simply because i go 'gaga' over them, and they can be found everywhere, they fullfill the biological needs/requirements of my human biology/physiology (though i could compensate for that w/additives of vitamins and minerals that the aforementioned diet was lacking in)....

i could also have taken take hormones and steroids as a young child and ended up taller and heavier than my present 5'6"/135 lbs in middle age,(heh) and have arrived at that faster than my peers ;P-wouldn't mean i was healthier, and the result wouldn't have been from a superiorly nutritious diet ;) ....




when beef heart was first used/recommended-it was solely because of palatability,price,availability, and yes, rapid growth-NONE of which reflect whether or not it's truly healthy for FISH ;)

(it was also extremely profitable to market by the various discus 'gurus' of the day, who made a fortune selling it ;) )

understanding of protiens, fats/lipids in fish, and fish nutrition/metabolism was in its infancy (if even existant) when beefheart 'exploded' onto the discus scene (as well as some of the fundamental differences between mammalian and fish protien structure/metabolism pathways)

the nutritional aspects were completely unknown at the time-absolutely NO real research had been done as to what beefheart is and does to fish-none whatsoever-it was simply a food item found to be very well liked by discus, and THOUGHT to be beneficial from a health/nutritional standpoint because it was high in protien-the issue of what TYPE of protien(s) it contains weren't even considered (and yes, it is oh so important) ;)

fish metabolism/physiology knowledge in the hobby was also, practically, non existent, back in the day ;)


in addition to being a tropical fish hobbyist since the mid '70s, working in the retail/wholesale/import trade from around the mid/late '70's to the present, and 'dabbling' in discus on and off since the late '80's/early 90's, i've cared for wilds (blues, greens, and heckels), and manmade strains in various home tank,(particularly red turqs from Bernd Degen), as well as in store settings...

i presently manage husbandry and quality control issues at a (very good, imo)tropical fish store-where one of our specialties is discus-particularly wilds, and various strains from Stendker, sizes ranging from 3 to 5" for the Stendker's, and 4-6/7" for the wilds (large greens, and medium blues, for the moment) ...

i currently have at home 4 nice wild 'blues', and i'm in the process of getting some more tanks ready for some large 6-7" wild greens, to be followed by some varied color strains from Stendker :) -the wild blues have been eating pelletized/granular foods alternated w'blackworms since the day they arrived at the store, and were eating 'tetra bits' with gusto within their 1st hour in their new tank :)

i've NEVER encountered a discus that i could not get readily eating anything i insisted it eat-never ever ;) (and there's also no such thing as a finicky cat-and i can prove that to any cat owner with their own cat, hehe-all healthy animals will eat any reasonably palatable foods when faced with the alternative of starvation-it's more a battle of wills, than anything else)

ALL of the discus we get eat pelletized commercially available 'off the shelf' foods quite readily-mostly from 'tetra' (color bits) and 'dainichi',(cichlid and marine fx formulations) within 24 hrs after tanking-

it's typical for the discus to appear to eat the food pellets and then spit them out, when the pellets first hit the water, and when they first waterlog and sink-the fish also appear to chew the pellets abit, break them up and spit them out

once the pellets soften up abit, it's a different story, and they end up with FAT bellies :) -they appear to prefer eating them in smaller particle 'bites' than the pellets initially are-and they leave not one trace of food in their tanks

i recently had decided to 'spoil' our discs w/blackworms only, for a week or two, while we were dealing w/some protozoal issues in our system-and everyone, including my boss, advised against it-saying that it would be difficult to get them back on readily accepting pellets/granules-we need them easily accepting those foods so hobbyists/aquarists won't have difficulty feeding them at home...

i said it wouldn't be an issue because i wouldn't let it be an issue-pellets/granules would be the only thing they'd get, after the one/two week blackworm 'babying'-they tried to 'play it finicky' for a day or so, and got the message that it was either eat what i give 'em, or starve, heh

48 hrs later they were back up to 'begging' up at the surface every time i'd walk by w/a food can

we feed our discus 2-3 times a day, with occasional feedings of well rinsed blackworms, keep them at about 88°F, with system wide treatments of either formalin or 'fmc' twice to thrice weekly to control/eliminate protozoal (potential) issues, given the possible influx from the wild caughts

if we don't like the way a discus looks at us ;) we'll pop the temp up to 90-91° for a day or two

now back to protiens.....

saltwater fish have different protien requirements than fw fish, and many fw fish based protiens are simply not digestable by sw fish, and vice versa

it doesn't matter that both groups are comprised of amino acids-it's the particular build/pattern/structure of those amino acids that matters-the enzymes that lyse protiens are quite specific to the protiens they break up-evolution simply give different animals different pathways/abilities/enzymes for different types of protiens-there are similiarities, and similiar protiens, but there are also different ones

some species of fish vary in the protiens they use, even though they might be from the same water type as others

being a protien is like being a cichlid-all it means is that you follow a certain general criteria/pattern vis-a-vis how you're put together-there's a world of diff between a ram and an oscar, in spite of their all too close similiarity of structure (which is what defines 'cichlid-it's more a matter of how the bones fit together and what bones they have, more than anything else, and the classification itself is a human invention for classification's sake)

(lionfish toxin is also a protien-doesn't mean it's good for you :P )

animal protien/fat/lipid is even more different from fw fish's than sw fish's is from fw fishes, heh

the most obvious and well know is the issue of 'congeality'-

animal fats and oils are simply designed to be the relative fluidity/solidity they are for a particular rangs of temperature-that of the mammals themselves, which are WARM BLOODED-the oils in a cow's heart are liquid at the internal temperature of a cow, and will congeal to a semi solid in a fish-who's internal temp is (far) lower

these can deposit in the liver, and cause fatty liver degeneration, or simply get deposited in the musculature of the fish-permanently-the fish simply doesn't have the mechanisms to move these large deposits through it's internal blood vessels to vacuate them form the body

the one possibly mitigating factor for the deposits issue for discus is that they're usually kept (by those who know and care enough ;) ) at slightly higher temps than 'regular' tropical fish-although even the 84° plus range is still too low to ensure that the animal oils will not congeal

and again-the protien base/structure itself simply isn't a great match for fish


i would counter with a request from all of the 'beefheart cultists' :P to prove to me their contention that beef heart protien is appropo for a fish's digestive system's enzymes with the following:

(not as ridicule, or plain naysaying, but in the spirit of honest open debate, and the forwarding of fish nutrition knowledge) :

what protiens, specifically, in beefheart, are beneficial to discus, and what enzymes do discus have that allow them to utilize said protiens ?

if the argument is simply that 'beefheart is high in protien, and therefore must be good for ALL animals that need protien,including discus, regardless of the TYPE of protien that's either in beefheart, or the TYPE that various animals use/need'-well, then-that's not an argument-that's anecdotal assumptive reasoning with absolutely no logical or scientific base in fact

by that reasoning, i should be able to feed discus lionfish toxin as well ;)

everything i've stated regarding the issues of different types of animals using different protien types can easily be verified in college level biology textbooks, most likely-everything i've looked for on the net involves having to subscribe or pay to be able to get the published research papers-something i'm not about to do in order to validate what's really common knowledge already-maybe there are 'residents' here w/backgrounds in biology/biochemistry who can either cite or provide the material/references ?

i would suggest that you can probably do a simple home experiment though...

take a beefheart, trimmed from all of the visibly obvious fat, and blenderize it...warm it up in a pot to about 95-100°F, and then draw off the oily/fatty liquid from the top of the resulting 'heart mash' in the pot...

then place that LIQUID into a cup of water at 86°, and let me know what happens ;)

[mikel]

I see your line of thought, and it is well argued. I used to feed granules before...Sera and Ocean Nutrition were the two. But I had a terrible case of bloat because of it, and I stopped giving my fish any pellets. Now it's Al's BH mix (withs seafood) and Omega One Flakes of all kind. Your argument about fatty liver is convincing. I do know that mammal fat is indeed different from fish fat, and in our desire to give the fish high concentration of protein to grow, we may inadvertantly give them the animal fat too. But I dont think this issue would be relevant to Eddie's seafood mix, where the main ingredients are seafoods of all sorts....there is no animal fat involved there.

How do you ensure that fish do not get bloat from pellets/granules? Soak them first? mike

[vitz]

first- i managed to find one scientific reference-which i had to save as a jpeg, heh

i apologize for the small size-but it should be readable if zoomed by your browser :)

(note the second paragraph bottom left)

i'm not familiar with Eddie, or his mix, so i can't say anything regarding it-other than a general caution involving the use of saltwater animal based foods given to fw fish, and vice versa, for all fish being fed

here's what i know about bloat:

i've only had experience with it, and have only come across it in literature, regarding african cichlids-specifically of the genus tropheus from lake tanganyika

iirc-it's due to too high a concentration of animal protien/fat content vs vegetable/plant protien/fat content introduced to the gut, and possibly an issue of too low a fiber content, causing food to sit for too long in the g.i. tract (mooriis feed nearly exclusively on plant matter in the wild, and appear to have a more specialized gut than many of their malawian counterparts that feed on 'aufwuchs')



i would imagine it's an issue whereby the food is too 'rich' for the fish to fully digest, and also dwells in the g.i. tract longer than what's ideal for that genus (tropheus moorii are notorious for getting bloat very easily)-i would think this leads to massive bacterial growth/reproducive explosion in the g.i. tract, producing gas, leading to bloat combined with constipation/intestinal blocking-possibly analogous to the way a bacterial infection can cause 'popeye' by pushing the eyeball out of the socket from the resulting gases produced by the bacteria infecting the socket/eyeball

i used to feed sera 'nips' while working at a store in salem nh-an amazing food that came in a tablet form-it would stick to glass when pressed firmly against it-my experience with the company overall was good-they made quite a few products that i really liked due to good performance (they also had an excellent hobbyist level Fe test kit, along with some fw plant products, iirc-this was circa '98-99)

we'd place a tab on the front glass of a row of tanks at eye level before opening, and there'd be a row of balls of fish attacking the tablets, like iron filings being drawn to a magnet-it was quite a sight-talk about palatability, this stuff was like crack! ;)

i've used a food made by dainichi while working as a husbandry tech for a major wholesaler/importer of marine ornamentals during a 3 yr stint in california, and was also very impressed with their food (marine formula), and eager acceptance by fish who had never before seen a man made food until landing at our warehouse facility

i'm currently evaluating it for short term use on various fw fish, including discus-simply because it's the one we presently have in bulk-they make the food to order-so freshness quality of the ingredients is (i'm assuming) bound to be superior to other shelf bought foods that may sit in a warehouse for some time before getting to retail outlets

i can't say for sure if it's a matter of simply soaking the foods, or a matter of the foods actual composition-though my intuition would lead me to believe the latter, given to what i know about africans

one of the oldtimer fishheads remedy's for 'bloat' in gouramis' was to feed them gelatin-it may pay to experiment abit with incorporating the food into a gelatin base first-which should, in theory, cause the food to pass more quickly through the g.i. tract (of course, there's always a trade-off-this might possibly lead to poorer absorption of nutrients due to the speedier passage through the stomach/intestines, etc)

one great food you can get for free (well, it'll cost you some sweat equity :P ) for just about any cichlid is earthworms-they simply need to be 'gut cleaned' from internal soil, etc., by leting them poop out any remains they have inside them for 24-48 hours prior to feeding-or, you can slice them lenghtwise and rinse out any soil still inside their gut (some folks would keep them in clean sawdust for a day or so to that end)

it was a wonderful conditioning food for the fw angels i was breeding during my teenage yrs :)

[Eddie]

You guys may want to start a thread in the Food/Nutrition section. Thats just my advice since this is completely off topic, again....with the OPs thread.

Eddie

[rickztahone]

You guys may want to start a thread in the Food/Nutrition section. Thats just my advice since this is completely off topic, again....with the OPs thread.

Eddie

Eddie is quite correct. so i have taken the liberty of starting a new thread solely for the purpose to further understand your reasoning Vitz (not saying you are right or wrong here). i am genuinely intrigued. here's the link, please follow up there
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=73086

[Eddie]

Eddie is quite correct. so i have taken the liberty of starting a new thread solely for the purpose to further understand your reasoning Vitz (not saying you are right or wrong here). i am genuinely intrigued. here's the link, please follow up there
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=73086

Thanks Ricardo, good looking out. ;)

Eddie

[allan_mark76]

A balanced diet and WC WC WC WC ! ! ! Can't express that enough - WC. Oh yeah good quality discus to begin with.

~AKA~

[Jhhnn]

Having added beefheart to my feeding regimen, I have to say that it really seems to put some heft onto fish rather rapidly. That's in addition to frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp, mysis and eddie's seafood mix. When my current supply of ordinary brine shrimp runs out, I'll switch to hikari spirulina brine shrimp entirely. For my purposes, the price delta is insignificant, and the spirulina appears to be better food.

As allan mark76 points out, food variety is important, and water changes are, in my limited experience, key to success w/ young fish at normal to high stocking levels. It's almost impossible to actually overfeed young discus, but it is entirely possible to overfeed their tank and biofilter. And they have to be heavily fed if they're to reach their full growth potential in the first year or so, because they'll basically stop growing at that age. They're peculiar in that respect.

Anybody who has imported Malaysian discus has fish that have likely been raised on mixtures of beefheart/shrimp/other ingredients as the main staple in their diet. Their ancestors have been raised and kept the same way for decades.

If that kind of feeding regimen impacts longevity, it's really a secondary concern, given that most aquarists' discus will perish from lack of proper diet, poor water quality and the related issues long before that's an issue, usually within the first year...