Advice on Tank Set up

[akumastew]

Hi All

Although I have experience with Discus in smaller tanks(up to 55 gallons), I am planning a larger tank for my basement...

I can't decide on how to proceed and was hoping for some advice from you guys that have tanks set up.

What are your thoughts/experiences with the following products.

Tank

1. 120 Gallon 48x24x24 ...or
2. 120 Gallon 60x18x22

Filtration

1. Eheim 2080 Pro 3 ...or
2. Eheim 2078 Pro 3e ...or
3. Fluval FX-5

Additional Filtration

1. Reverse flow U/G utilizing 2 x Penguin 660 Powerheads. Good idea?

Heating

1. 2x Vistherm Stealth 250W ...or
2. 2x Jager 250W

RO Unit

1. Coral Life 24 GPD ...or
2. Coral Life 50 GPD

I wasn't sure that if the higher GPH ratings on the filtration would be too much water movement for the discus.

How many discus would you put in a tank of this volume?

Thanks in advance for any advice given. :)

[Eddie]

Tank

1. 120 Gallon 48x24x24 ...or


Filtration

1. 2 of whatever canister you decide, Rena XPs are pretty good from what I hear.


Additional Filtration

1. The extra canister I mentioned above

Heating

2. 2x Jager 300W

RO Unit

Can't help you on that one, use straight tap. ;)


How many discus would you put in a tank of this volume?

Adults - 14

[bs6749]

Well, it's rare but I pretty much disagree with Eddie on everything here, though it's really a matter of prefernece.

For the tank I would go longer to give them more length to swim. 18" should be a wide enough tank for them. I have a 100g with the same footprint, just shorter and I love it.

I had an XP3 and it was okay, but it was severely underpowered. It was rated up to 125 gallons, but I wouldn't put it in anything larger than a 75g. You would be looking at an XP4 for a tank that size. I say save your money and go with two AC110's or two AC70's. It will be cheaper and provide better filtration in my opinion.

No experience with Jagers other than the old style green one I have which is bulletproof. They don't make them like they used to that's for sure. I prefer the Stealths because I like the look of a black heater, plastic coating to prevent breakeage, and the auto shutoff feature if it is exposed to air for too long. I think the Jagers have a recalibration feature and they should be just as good as the Stealths. Check out www.jehmco.com if you are looking to get the Jagers. They have the best prices around. Just go with two 250w heaters and you should be okay. I'm not sure that you can ger Jagers and Stealths in 300W. I don't recall ever seeing them. I also like the 300W Visitherm Deluxe heaters. Keep two of those in your tank and the fish will stay nice and toasty even in the cold MN winters.

14 discus sounds like an okay number given that proper maintenance is done regularly. Personally I'd only have 14 in the 5 foot long tank.

[Eddie]

Well, it's rare but I pretty much disagree with Eddie on everything here, though it's really a matter of prefernece.

For the tank I would go longer to give them more length to swim. 18" should be a wide enough tank for them. I have a 100g with the same footprint, just shorter and I love it.

I had an XP3 and it was okay, but it was severely underpowered. It was rated up to 125 gallons, but I wouldn't put it in anything larger than a 75g. You would be looking at an XP4 for a tank that size. I say save your money and go with two AC110's or two AC70's. It will be cheaper and provide better filtration in my opinion.

No experience with Jagers other than the old style green one I have which is bulletproof. They don't make them like they used to that's for sure. I prefer the Stealths because I like the look of a black heater, plastic coating to prevent breakeage, and the auto shutoff feature if it is exposed to air for too long. I think the Jagers have a recalibration feature and they should be just as good as the Stealths. Check out www.jehmco.com if you are looking to get the Jagers. They have the best prices around. Just go with two 250w heaters and you should be okay. I'm not sure that you can ger Jagers and Stealths in 300W. I don't recall ever seeing them. I also like the 300W Visitherm Deluxe heaters. Keep two of those in your tank and the fish will stay nice and toasty even in the cold MN winters.

14 discus sounds like an okay number given that proper maintenance is done regularly. Personally I'd only have 14 in the 5 foot long tank.

No worries Bryan, we can't all agree on everything. :D

I have never used the XPs but you are the first person to have any negative comment on them. As far as Jagers and ANY Visitherms, there is no contest. 14 discus in a 120, I wouldn't advise it to a beginner but as the OP has experience, as mentioned, it really boils down to tank maintenance practices.

Good suggestions though

Take care buddy,

Eddie

[bs6749]

Eddie, the whole concept and design of the XP series is very nice including the mulitiple media baskets, spray bar attachments, etc. it's just that myself and several others on another forum all thought that they seemed underpowered and were "overrated" for the tank size they should actually fit. However, discus don't like a lot of flow (as you know) so XP's might be okay. However if given the choice to go with an XP4 for well over $200 or two AC110's for around $150 total I would take the 110's with no hesitation.

[Eddie]

Eddie, the whole concept and design of the XP series is very nice including the mulitiple media baskets, spray bar attachments, etc. it's just that myself and several others on another forum all thought that they seemed underpowered and were "overrated" for the tank size they should actually fit. However, discus don't like a lot of flow (as you know) so XP's might be okay. However if given the choice to go with an XP4 for well over $200 or two AC110's for around $150 total I would take the 110's with no hesitation.

Very true, very true but the OP was suggesting canisters, not HOBs so I tried to stay in that realm.

Eddie

[Scribbles]

I would go with the longer tank for swimming room. With canister filters you might think about an inline heater such as the Hydor Eth. I would pass on the RO unit unless you have unstable tap water.

Chris

[Jhhnn]

I have a 120gal 60x18x26 tank, which is a nice size for discus. It's home to 8 near adult discus. I wouldn't try to keep more than 10 adults in it- actual water capacity is really ~105 gallons. I bought it used. If I were buying new, I'd opt for the 125gal 72x18x22. The fish are becoming territorial, and would seem to benefit more from the extra room horizontally rather than vertically. I use 2 ea. 250w jager heaters on a Ranco controller, all from Jehmco. I also use a Pennplax Cascade 1000 canister, part of the used aquarium deal, plus 4 ea #3 sponge filters, again from Jehmco. I also have a used & converted 75gal wet/dry system, again with a couple of #3 sponges as well.

I feed heavily and change 50% of the water daily, and have a rather elaborate system to age and condition my good Denver tap water. No RO. Do yourself and your fish a favor, invest in a water changing system that makes doing so quick and easy. It really pays off in the long run. Unless you're a very advanced aquarist, bare bottom tanks and lots of water changes are the answer. Just the way it is.

The stealth heaters don't have a particularly good reputation, and lack a pilot light. The jagers are generally decent, once calibrated, while the renas and hydor inlines are supposedly good, as well.

Discus don't really like a lot of current, so media capacity trumps flow wrt power filters. Mine has the flow turned down somewhat- the fish like it better that way, and I use a fine #3 sponge as an intake prefilter. For future tanks, I'll probably forego canisters entirely (unless a used tank comes with one) in favor of powerhead/sponge filters, maybe hob filters.

Unless there are live plants, the usual single tube fluorescent strip lights/ glass tops are entirely adequate...

[akumastew]

Do yourself and your fish a favor, invest in a water changing system that makes doing so quick and easy

Could you give me some guidance on the water changing ystem you mentioned.

And thanks all for the great advice.

[DiscusOnly]

1. 120 Gallon 48x24x24 ...or
2. 120 Gallon 60x18x22

Filtration

1. Eheim 2080 Pro 3 ...or
2. Eheim 2078 Pro 3e ...or
3. Fluval FX-5

Additional Filtration

1. Reverse flow U/G utilizing 2 x Penguin 660 Powerheads. Good idea?

Heating

1. 2x Vistherm Stealth 250W ...or
2. 2x Jager 250W

RO Unit

1. Coral Life 24 GPD ...or
2. Coral Life 50 GPD

I'll go with the 60" tank instead. I've always had 48" tank and I finally got a 72" tank this past weekend. wow! It's like watching a regular TV and then switching to wide screen.

For filter, I'll rather stick with HOB but if those are the 3 choices, the Fx5 is nice.

2x Jager should be sufficient.

RO: You may not need one but between the 2, go with the 50gpd. Make sure you know you water pressure first.

[akumastew]

One question I forgot to ask.

Filter Media.

How should I stock the canisters if I go that route?

Are there equivalent quality products from different suppliers than from Eheim etc?

[Eddie]

One question I forgot to ask.

Filter Media.

How should I stock the canisters if I go that route?

Are there equivalent quality products from different suppliers than from Eheim etc?

You could use any brand of porous rings and extra sponges. Otherwise Eheim's brand substrate Pro is pretty good.

Eddie

[akumastew]

RO: You may not need one but between the 2, go with the 50gpd. Make sure you know you water pressure first.

How will I determine my water pressure? and what pressure I will need for my RO unit.

I used to live in Scotland, where I did not need to do much treatment of my water. I now live in a part of MN where the water is quite hard. Hence, my lacking of knowledge of all things RO. ;)

The wife is pushing hard for the 48x24x24, so you know; what the wife says will most likely happen. :D

[Jhhnn]

Could you give me some guidance on the water changing ystem you mentioned.

And thanks all for the great advice.

Everybody's circumstances are a little different, and everybody's method is a little different as a consequence.

Putting the tank in the basement can be to your advantage, particularly if there's a floor drain to exploit, and if it's a less formal environment where you can have more freedom to leave tubes, pumps, hoses and barrels in permanent locations.

I've been contemplating a pictorial to describe my own system, except it's not quite finished, and I just don't have the time this evening to do pics.

We have an 1887 pocket victorian in the city. It's not really very big, at all, and the cellar, what little there is, houses my workshop, the furnace, and water heater. OTOH, I've renovated it extensively and have no qualms about creating passages from the cellar to my study on the main floor where the tanks are located. So, I have 2 insulated 55gal plastic barrels in the cellar, each with its own pump, airstone and heater The fill hoses are permanently installed from the pumps up to the 2 tanks. There's also a fill hose from the nearby plumbing for the barrels. I fill the barrels and add prime after each water change, turn on the heaters so it's all ready for the next day.

On the drain side, I have a powerhead installed in each tank to pump up through a u-tube over the edge of the tank and down to a drain in the cellar. They're set at just the right height, so that when they run dry, there's just enough room to fill the tank with the pump from the barrel- no overfilling, ever. Each tank also has its own squeeze bulb siphon pump and sucker tube to clean the bottom of the tanks, and they also go down to the drain in the cellar. I have the tank heaters attached horizontally down low so that they can stay on during the water changes.

When it's time to change water, I turn off the power filters, turn on the drain powerheads, suck up the poop with the siphon pumps, put them in their storage positions. When the powerheads run dry, I turn them off, head for the cellar, check the barrel temps, turn off the barrel heaters, start the tank fill pumps. When they run dry, I add prime, fill the barrels from the hose, turn on the barrel heaters, go back upstairs to turn on the power filters... the whole thing takes ~30 minutes to change half the water in the 120 and the 75... 10 minutes of that is waiting for the barrels to fill, which I'm trying to automate a little...

I hope that makes sense.

Some people add prime to the tank and fill from the faucet w/ a hose & water at the right temp, others have barrels in a closet or on wheels, still others are able to have the barrel higher than the tank, let gravity do the filling...

Lots of options- think your way through the whole process, put together something right for you. Don't be afraid to spend some money on it. Discus can live many years, so savings in time add up tremendously.

The easier it is, the more likely all of us are to actually do it, to not make excuses, to not slack off down the road, to not flirt with disaster...

[akumastew]

Jhhnn...your set up sounds amazing.

My basement is to be used for my PC room, and for entertaining the guys when they come over.

I do have access to the storage room which is next to the tank, so I will be installing the RO unit there and will be utilizing the drainage system for my waste water from RO and from the tank.

I think when I build my next house, I will better plan the lower level as so I can fully automate the system, much more like your own.

Thanks again,

Stew

[bs6749]

Stew, I think you and the discus would be better off in a lower but longer tank. They really don't use all of the vertical room and would benefit more from the extra length. It's kinda like buying a Corvette and only being able to drive it in the parking lot. What's the point if you can't get everything out of your purchase? I can see territorial disputes happening and that's where extra length would definitely come in handy.

Also, I have kept my discus in 300+ ppm GH for a long time now and they are breeding for me and are fertile. pH is also 7.8-8.0 and I have lots of iron in the water. I say leave your water where it is to be honest, especially if you have no plans to breed them.

[DiscusOnly]

Most RO unit will recommend a water pressure of 60psi. A pressure gauge is relatively cheap ($10-$15 with the right connection). If water pressure is an issue, you may not get the rate gpd or high tds product water. Your option then is to get a booster pump.

I would still look at the option of not using an RO first.

[akumastew]

Seems the wife changed her mind, and that a 125 galon 6ft x 18" x 22" would fit in well ith our basement decor...

hopefully going to pick it up tomorrow...LFS ermitting/ :bandana:

I will be sure to post some picks once it is delivered, and up and running.

God Bless Nice Wives. :D or should it be :angel:

[Eddie]

Seems the wife changed her mind, and that a 125 galon 6ft x 18" x 22" would fit in well ith our basement decor...

hopefully going to pick it up tomorrow...LFS ermitting/ :bandana:

I will be sure to post some picks once it is delivered, and up and running.

God Bless Nice Wives. :D or should it be :angel:

Wow, let her read your post and you might be able to get another tank! :D I always show off to my wife about how I talk good about her. I keep the bad stuff secret! LOL.

Eddie

[akumastew]

Nice idea Eddie. I think I am chancing my arm even having this tank. But who knows, maybe once she sees the fish her interests will be tweaked to get her own tank.

125 Gallon Tank delivered this morning.

I didn't realize I how heavy 172 lbs was until I was under it. :D

Hopefully start getting the rest of my equipment next week.

Then I will be sure to post my findings.

- Stew

[akumastew]

I ordered the rest of my equipment this afternoon.

I went with:

Eheim 2180 and Filter Media kit

2 x Penguin 660R for Reverse Flow Under Gravel

50GPD Coral life RO Unit.

Hopefully by the end of next week, I will be ready for some pictures. :D

[Eddie]

I ordered the rest of my equipment this afternoon.

I went with:

Eheim 2180 and Filter Media kit

2 x Penguin 660R for Reverse Flow Under Gravel

50GPD Coral life RO Unit.

Hopefully by the end of next week, I will be ready for some pictures. :D


If you don't mind me asking, why the RO unit? Future breeding?

Eddie

[bs6749]

If you don't mind me asking, why the RO unit? Future breeding?

Eddie

Since he is in MN he probably has terrible water and most likely needs it. pH might be in the 9's and more heavy metals than you'd want in an aquarium.

[Eddie]

Since he is in MN he probably has terrible water and most likely needs it. pH might be in the 9's and more heavy metals than you'd want in an aquarium.

That would be great if the OP could answer. I know what an RO unit is for.

Edie

[csarkar001]

if you want to make your water changing easy, consider plumbing a couple of bulkheads into the tank during setup. One for a overflow and another (optional) for inlet. Here is a great example of how this can cut maintenance by 80%:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=72105

[akumastew]

That would be great if the OP could answer. I know what an RO unit is for.

Edie

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you...wife's B'day this weekend. :)

My water is very hard and has a high pH.

I would like to have the fish breed in the future, bc that would be a good guide as to whether I am treating them right. ;)

and supposing they don't breed, they will still look pretty.

[akumastew]

if you want to make your water changing easy, consider plumbing a couple of bulkheads into the tank during setup. One for a overflow and another (optional) for inlet. Here is a great example of how this can cut maintenance by 80%:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=72105

That sounds like a good system. Not being the most handy of people I think it is above my skill level.

I will make do with a submersible pump in Storage room to top up the tank, and use a manual drainage method until I can think on how to automate the draining, in an less handy fashion.

[Eddie]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you...wife's B'day this weekend. :)

My water is very hard and has a high pH.

I would like to have the fish breed in the future, bc that would be a good guide as to whether I am treating them right. ;)

and supposing they don't breed, they will still look pretty.

How hard is too hard and how high of a PH? Lots of people keep discus in the high 7 range with alot of success. ;)

Eddie

[akumastew]

How hard is too hard and how high of a PH? Lots of people keep discus in the high 7 range with alot of success. ;)

Eddie


I will provide exact numbers once the test kit I ordered arrives. Hopefully, some time this week. If it isn't here by the weekend, I will bring a sample in to work, and test it myself in the Lab.

I was speaking to my LFS owner, and he told me that is was "very hard" with a "high pH"

- Stew

[akumastew]

Do you guys have any thoughts on how best to start tank cycling?

I was thinking on starting off with some fish that would become dithering. Maybe cardinals,corys or bnp or something similar.

But I wasn't sure on the correct numbers to start with as any large tank I have started in the passed has access to aged filters and water.

Thanks

Stew

[Eddie]

Do you guys have any thoughts on how best to start tank cycling?

I was thinking on starting off with some fish that would become dithering. Maybe cardinals,corys or bnp or something similar.

But I wasn't sure on the correct numbers to start with as any large tank I have started in the passed has access to aged filters and water.

Thanks

Stew

Cycling with fish can introduce parasite/bacteria making newly arrived, stressed discus, very easy targets. Best to do a fishless cycle.

Eddie

[akumastew]

Best to do a fishless cycle.

Thansk Eddie.

Could you provide a link for fishless cycle? Or just give me a description here. :D

[akumastew]

How hard is too hard and how high of a PH? Lots of people keep discus in the high 7 range with alot of success. ;)

Eddie


pH: 7.8

GH: <1 dH I don't quite understand this one, but the tetra test kit I had changed color with the first drop. I repeated the test a number of times and got the same result. Although, my water does go through a chemical water softener before it gets to the faucets. Would this be the reason?

KH: 11 dH

CO2: 3 ppm

[Eddie]

Thansk Eddie.

Could you provide a link for fishless cycle? Or just give me a description here. :D

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=42784&highlight=fishless+cycle

[Eddie]

pH: 7.8

GH: <1 dH I don't quite understand this one, but the tetra test kit I had changed color with the first drop. I repeated the test a number of times and got the same result. Although, my water does go through a chemical water softener before it gets to the faucets. Would this be the reason?

KH: 11 dH

CO2: 3 ppm

Your PH is fine, your low GH, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Some water experts may be able to chime in on that one. Never dealt with low GH. :o

Eddie

[akumastew]

A guy at my LFS was telling me they have bacteria in a bottle to start the cycle.

Any thoughts on this?

- Stew

[Eddie]

A guy at my LFS was telling me they have bacteria in a bottle to start the cycle.

Any thoughts on this?

- Stew

It helps stew but I usually use it when the colony has been set back from meds or something.

Check out the threads in the water works section about Al's fishless cycle. Miracle grow my friend. :D

Eddie

[akumastew]

Your PH is fine, your low GH, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Some water experts may be able to chime in on that one. Never dealt with low GH. :o

Eddie

I think I worked out what causes my low GH.

My water goes through a water softener before it goes to the faucet I used. I am told this lowers the GH, but adds some Sodium to the water.

Does anyone know if there is any reason why I can not collect water after the water softener?

[frenchie100]

Hi Stew- You would want a higher GH to grow the discus.

As for the pH, you want to check the stability by aging it for 24 hrs in a bucket with air bubbles and heat. Then check the pH again. I don't remember exactly but I think it is that if you have more than a 0.6 difference then it is unstable, therefore very stressfull for the fish.

Congrats on the big tank!

Good luck,

Julie

[akumastew]

Finally I got everything installed.

What a pain in the butt, cleaning 150bs of gravel.

Got the RO hooked up, just waiting on the water.

RO results:

pH: 6.5

GH: <1

KH: <1

I have some R/O right on hand to add to the water to correct the hardness.

Hopefully I will have enough water by Monday to start up the filters.

- Stew