questions from a rookie,,,more to come

[uncle white]

Hello everyone! If you read my first post then you know I am a rookie and been lurking here for awhile now. I have a few questions to start with today and am greatful for suggestions, comments, etc.
1.) First off what type of testing equipment do you use for water testing? I see lots of kits from a google search with quite a difference on prices. I need a suggestion on a kit to buy and where. Also I assume most are using Ph pens or such for Ph readings. What's a good reliable cheaper one?
2.) Providing my water parameters are incheck, (I'll know about that when I get my test kit) can I do WC with my tap water adjusted to correct temp? Adding Prime to the tank at the same time? Instead of the storage deal? Is any type of filtering needed for the tap water? First tanks will be for raising juvies.
3.) Let's say I set my tank up and have it running uncycled. When I visit a breeder to buy my first discus, could I get a sponge filter or filter media from them to put in my tank along with the new fish to get it cycled? The fish I purchase will be the only thing going into the tank. If I do that, how long should I let the seeded filter run before adding my discus?
4.) Oh, here's my plan for my juvie detention center:
55 Gal BB tank four foot long to match a stand I have. Will use a HOB 110 Aqua Clear with two sponge filters in it and a air driven sponge filter inside the tank. I'll use two heaters in each tank, what size should I use for the 55? Was thinking about the Jagers?? Did I miss anything? Suggestions?

OK, I'll stop for this morning, but Noon is only two minutes away here, so I'll be back this Afternoon... THANKS...uncle white

[mmorris]

Hi Uncle White,
1) There are three sorts of water testing that I am familiar with: drops, strips and the more expensive probes. I haven't had any luck with my ph probe and strips are generally thought to be the least accurate. I use the liquid drop kits from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. They are easily found at the lfs or online.
2) Check the ph straight from the tap and check it again 24 hours later. Secondly, pour water from the tap into the tank. If the ph is very similar over the 24 hours and you see no bubbles all over the tank, then IMO you don't need to age your water. You can then just add the Prime to the tank. You need to be very careful, though, that the temperature is the same. Other people may think of variables I didn't think of.
3) Some, and perhaps most, sponsors will be happy to supply you with a seeded sponge. Remember, though, that they cost money and so I would insist on paying the replacement cost. Add the fish at the same time. The beneficial bacteria on the sponge will die if there is no ammonia (fish waste) in the water to feed them.
4) You want a total heating capacity of roughly 5 watts per gal, so a 55 gal will need around 275 watts, or two 150 watt heaters. That is an approximate. If the heating capacity is too high, if the heater sticks on you risk cooking the fish. Too low and you will have trouble heating the water. I use stealth heaters, but people have reported problems on virtually all of the heaters so the kind is up to you. Just avoid cheapies.
HTH
Auntie Martha :D

[Jhhnn]

1- your most important test kits are for ammonia and nitrite/nitrate. If you plan on using prime water conditioner or similar, and that's a good idea, then you'll want the Seachem ammonia test kit. They explain, here-

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.html

Their nitrite/nitrate test kits are also quick, accurate and easy to use. My pH and hardness test kits mostly stay in the drawer, because my provider, Denver Water, delivers an extremely consistent and high quality product. YMMV. I do check ammonia, nitrite and nitrate regularly.

2- like mmorris says. if the pH changes when the water is aged, that means it has a lot of dissolved gasses, usually CO2, and has to be aged before putting it in the tank.

Be prepared to change a lot of water. Have a plan and the means to do so before you ever buy the fish. Be prepared to test the water daily at first, until your tank settles down. I age my water for 24 hrs, even though I suspect it's not really necessary- I'm just not comfortable filling from the tap. I guess it's an old-skool thing...

3- seeded sponges are a good idea, and you can use them to innoculate your other filter media by squeezing them out in a bucket of tank water, not very thoroughly, and then squeezing out your other virgin sponges in the same water. Put it all back in the tank. This loads the new sponges with nutrients and bacteria, speeds up development of bacterial colonies... Well established colonies will survive for weeks w/o feeding, if at a slowly diminishing level. Just adding some fish food to a tank w/o fish and w/ an established filter will keep it going just fine.

4- Recommended heater capacity is 3-5 watts/gallon w/ discus keepers tending towards the high end because of the higher temps. You can reduce the necessary wattage by using insulation board on the back, bottom and sides of the tank... I like to put a stick-on liquid crystal thermometer on the tank right up front where I'll notice and remember to read it. I'm using Jager heaters w/o problems, partially because Jehmco offers them at good prices, but the Renas are also well regarded. If their inline heaters are any indication, then the Hydor Theos are probably good, too... The Jagers do need to be calibrated- no big deal, but it needs to be done.

[Eddie]

1.) API liquid test kits are great, they are reliable and easy to use.
2.) This depends on the PH of the water after 24 hours of aeration. If it swings alot, you may need to age it. If you have never kept discus before, I would not recommend starting with Juvenile discus. Go with sub-adults IMO, more forgiving than juvies.
3.) You can get media from the breeder and add the fish to the tank immediately. Add another uncycled filter and perform water changes to keep the numbers in check, using your nifty liquid test kit! :D
4.) Jagers are the best, you may need to calibrate them initially but once they are set, they are set. On a 55 gallon tank, I'd use 2 each 200 watt heaters.


Suggestions:

1-Figure out the easiest, most convenient way to accomplish water changes.
2-Do yourself a favor and get a some precautionary medications in the event you do need to treat the fish so you won't be scrambling around later.
3-Depending on the type of discus you get, I'd recommend using a light color on the bottom of the tank, be it paint, paper, Styrofoam.

Other than that, have a blast!

[jerbear]

Uncle White,
You have received some great advice from Martha, John and Eddie. Not much to add other than I fill straight from the tap since my water ph and dissolved gasses are in check.. I purchased a pocket thermometer to make sure tap water is the same temp as tank water or no more than 2 degrees warmer. I have been doing WCs for a while and rarely use it now but it was a life saver when I first started.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3744+9853&pcatid=9853

As for the heaters, go with two 150 or 200 watt Jagers heater. I have never had a problem with them and they are easy synchronize them in a tank since they have a light to let you know when they are on.. In my opinion, going with two smaller heaters in a tank is the safest route..

Don't forget to get a prefilter for your Aqua Clear.
http://www.atisponge.com/Products/FilterMaxPreFilter/tabid/75/Default.aspx

I would go with a Fusion air pump they are cheaper than most however in my opinon, work great and are EXTREMELY quiet compared others that are higher priced....I bought a whisper when I first started and junked it 3 months later. I could barely hear my self think with that thing going.
.
. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19779

Don't forget the python hose to make your life easier..
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=17879

Hope this helps..

[Jhhnn]

I'm with Eddie wrt sub-adults vs small juvies- get fish that are 3"+, and that are fat, sassy and hungry. Do yourself an even bigger favor and buy from one of our sponsors. Whatever you decide, do your homework- there are several vendors w/ very flashy and informative web sites whose fish and business practices apparently don't measure up...

I got lucky when I found Simply, doubly so when I bought from Kenny... and I'll be the first to admit it.

[Eddie]

I'm with Eddie wrt sub-adults vs small juvies- get fish that are 3"+, and that are fat, sassy and hungry. Do yourself an even bigger favor and buy from one of our sponsors. Whatever you decide, do your homework- there are several vendors w/ very flashy and informative web sites whose fish and business practices apparently don't measure up...

I got lucky when I found Simply, doubly so when I bought from Kenny... and I'll be the first to admit it.

Ditto on the Simply Sponsor, if I lived in the US, I would have a direct deposit set-up to each every one of their accounts to have continuous supply of SUPERIOR fish! ;)

Eddie

[uncle white]

Thanks so much for the advice you all! I gotcha on the checking the tap water after sitting out and on the test kits. I have actually been researching them most of the day today, along with heaters. I did read about the Seachem test for ammonia being compatable with the prime and am leaning towards them for most of my test, except I didn't find a GH or KH test from them. What about Ph, liquid test or get a pen/probe? And do you know of a good one to get? I hear ya on the meds. too Eddie, been looking at those some tonight. I am prepared to change alot of water, be it out of the tap or aged. I have a good plan started,(thanks to this site) for a automated drain and fill system, but that's later down the road. I am wanting to start with what folks are selling as 2.5 inch discus. The main reason being is for me to try one of the harder things in this hobby, raising young. If I am not successful in that I will go with bigger fish but will also continue to master successfully raise juvies. I was successful in raising two batches of angels years ago, had no ideal what I was doing but knew after seeing the eggs and fry getting eaten in the community tank that I had to get the pair in a seperate tank. Lost a few batches after that until I learned about water changes for them and the fry. Anyway I think eventually I'll be able to raise discus, hopefully before I need to take out a mortgage! I have been checking out the venders on here and have lots saved in my favorites. Really glad I found this info on SD. Was going to visit a hatchery in my home state (IN) but don't think I will now (hint RFI). I would still like to visit Rocky Mtn. though. OK I'll shut up, for now. Someone reply so I can talk/type some more :D ... uncle white ...

[Eddie]

I will be honest UW and several others may disagree but I find angelfish almost more hardy than goldfish. You could probably keep an angel fish in bowl throughout its entire life and never have to maintain it. I am sure it may be different for wild caught angels but in general, I could keep mine in the toilet and they would just move out of the way when I p!$$ed and still survive.

Young juvenile discus are a challenge, one way or another, you will find out. Even getting 4" discus or fish at 5 or 6 months of age is still a challenge. They still would have plenty of growing up to do and you will be responsible for their development into adulthood.

Hope I am not offending any angel fish lovers, just an example. But they do move out of the way! LOL

Take care UW,

Eddie

[uncle white]

I could keep mine in the toilet and they would just move out of the way when I p!$$ed and still survive.

LOL, what about when you flush?:D My experiance was a bit different than yours I guess.

I'm ready for the challenge, I ain't scared :D I don't half a$$ do anything and jump right in with both feet. Hopefully I can show you in the future and don't have to eat my words :lickin: ... uncle white ...

[Eddie]

LOL, what about when you flush?:D My experiance was a bit different than yours I guess.

I'm ready for the challenge, I ain't scared :D I don't half a$$ do anything and jump right in with both feet. Hopefully I can show you in the future and don't have to eat my words :lickin: ... uncle white ...

Start off with some quality stock and it will all be up to you!

Oh yeah, when I flush, they swim up through the current like salmon to stay in the calm waters once the bowl is filled back up. :D

Eddie

[Disgirl]

Gave me a good laugh this morning Eddie! I have lots of angels and I am not offended. You are right, they are simple to raise and keep! Discus are a laterally compressed fish also, come from the same waters in the Amazon, but that is where any similarity ends, for sure!!! :D

UW, glad to have you here with us and you will find all the info. you could possibly ever need to grow healthy and beautiful discus. Welcome!
Barb:)

[ifixoldhouses]

I'm practicing on some angels right now, I bought six 7 week old angel fry and keep them in a 29 bb tank with a sponge filter, I've been doing 50% wc's and feeding them tons, They are all alive after a week:), I lost 12 in a row on my last attempt to keep angels, only one survived, he's getting pretty big now. I started with 4 2.5" to 3" Discus in my 55 tank, but they are a mess, I'm beginning to realize a planted tank sux for Discus, all my plants are dying from all the water changes, and its impossible to keep perfectly clean. Any way ,Im going to set up a room in my garage, and have everything worked out to the "T" before I start on juvies.

Heres my setup

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v70/ifixoldhouses/Fish/?action=view&current=angelfish.flv

[uncle white]

Thanks alot for everyones input. I took yesterday off from discus research. Shopped around for tanks instead. I have went from one ten gallon tank with a bass in it, my Son's idea, to two 55 gals. and waiting to hear back on a 75 gal. I got them all on craigslist. $45 each for the 55's, tanks only. And the 75 is really nice with lids and lights, for $50! I hope it's still available, should know today.
I'm also looking at a 300 gal for future use. It's really nice, acrylic tank, nice stand and topper with sump filter system. Asking $900.

Now for my questions for today. What meds should I keep on hand? Do you all treat your quarentine tanks with anything? And lastly, when people say they feed juvies six times a day, is that every two hours or every four hours?
Are you considering a 12 hour period when you say six times a day or a 24 hour period? Do you get up at night to feed the juvies? Thanks again for the help, I want to have my ducks in a row before I get started here.
...uncle white...

[akumastew]

And lastly, when people say they feed juvies six times a day, is that every two hours or every four hours?
Are you considering a 12 hour period when you say six times a day or a 24 hour period? Do you get up at night to feed the juvies? Thanks again for the help, I want to have my ducks in a row before I get started here.
...uncle white...

Not that I am experienced enough to answer the question directly.

There are a number of automated feeders on the market that allow you to set the time interval between feedings. I am guessing this would mean that you wouldn't need to get up during the night.

I believe fish in general can make it through the night without eating too much, sort of like humans do. Although, I have a 9 month old at home, and I am not sure if anyone in the house would have made it through the night if we weren't up feeding him in the early days.

- Stew

[Scribbles]

Juvies can be fed throughout the day. They need their sleep too. LOL Just find a schedule that works for you and be sure to keep the meals small. Auto feeders are great if you are away during the day.

Chris

[Jhhnn]

Feeding is based on a 15-16 hour day. Turn on the room lighting slowly in the morning if it's still dark. I have a small lamp on the other side of the room, that's first. after a few minutes, I turn on the overhead, which isn't very bright. after a few more minutes, I turn on the tank lights. Shortly afterwards, the fish are at the front, swimming up and down rapidly to get my attention- the "Feed Me!" dance... then as many times a day as I can manage, within reason. 4 or 5 times a day on weekdays, sometimes 6 on weekends. I feed the messiest meal, eddie's seafood mix, ~1/2hr before I siphon up the poop and change half the water in the evening, then a final feeding ~1/2 hr before lights out... Fish need sleep, too...

I haven't had really small discus since I've come back to the hobby, but they apparently need at least that kind of schedule or even more frequent feedings to thrive... Both batches of 4" fish I obtained from Kenny have grown extremely well on that regimen- the newest ones almost explosively since I made up a batch of Carol's beefheart, feed that at least once and sometimes twice a day...

I'd recommend having a broad spectrum anti-parasite med like Clout on hand if you need it, along with a broad spectrum anti bacterial like maracyn or maracyn2, and some salt as well. I use the plain salt from Albertson's w/o issues.

For me, quarantine is just isolation and observation unless there are problems... I always add salt for new fish- helps to heal any minor abrasions/ fin damage incurred on the way to my place...

Have you planned out your water changing routine? Yeh, I know I'm a nag, but I attribute most of my own success so far to having it together on that level... and to having obtained healthy and vigorous stock in the first place...

[uncle white]

Thanks for that good info Jhhnn. My tanks will slowly light up in the mornings by good ol mother nature. Natural light will wake them, then I'll turn on the light when I get up and that's a bit after the sun comes up this time of year. I guess I could put on a auto feeder to feed them in the morning and I could sleep in even later :D
I do have a feeding plan in mind, a couple different ideas that I'll try out and see what the discus have to say. They won't eat the same thing twice on any given day. At least that's the plan prior to getting fish.
I'm still looking at the medication stuff, anyone else care to throw their two cents in on meds to have on hand? How mush salt would you normally add to your QT?
As for water changes I will use straight from the tap IF everything checks out test wise. If not I will store in a 55 Gal barrel with heat, airation, and Prime. With pumps for draining the tank and refilling. Still need help on the pumps to use also, I'd like to go fully automated eventually.:D
I've looked at all the sponsors on here and would buy from them all if I could afford it. Right now leaning heavy towards Hans and some from Kenny maybe also. But who knows, I still got that field trip and I know if my tanks are set up by then that there is no way I could come back without any fish! Maybe I better wait until after the trip to set up my tanks. But wait, what if he has something spectacular, once in a lifetime chance or something! Darn it, I'll maybe just sit up one to limit my purchases:D
Thanks as always for you good folks' help ... uncle white ...

[Eddie]

Thanks alot for everyones input. I took yesterday off from discus research. Shopped around for tanks instead. I have went from one ten gallon tank with a bass in it, my Son's idea, to two 55 gals. and waiting to hear back on a 75 gal. I got them all on craigslist. $45 each for the 55's, tanks only. And the 75 is really nice with lids and lights, for $50! I hope it's still available, should know today.
I'm also looking at a 300 gal for future use. It's really nice, acrylic tank, nice stand and topper with sump filter system. Asking $900.

Now for my questions for today. What meds should I keep on hand? Do you all treat your quarentine tanks with anything? And lastly, when people say they feed juvies six times a day, is that every two hours or every four hours?
Are you considering a 12 hour period when you say six times a day or a 24 hour period? Do you get up at night to feed the juvies? Thanks again for the help, I want to have my ducks in a row before I get started here.
...uncle white...

Hey there UW, make sure you thoroughly sterilize all used tanks. There are a number of different methods but generally I use a bleach and water scrub and a bleach and water soak overnight.

Meds to keep on hand, well.....there are too many to be fully equipped but if you want a breakdown, I'll give it to you.

Metronidazole
Trichlorfon (Life Bearer)
Formalin & Malachite Green (Quick Cure)
Acriflavine
Methylene Blue
Furan type antibiotics
Kanamycin
Table salt (non-iodized) (old habit)
Espom salt

All 3 medicated flakes from Angel Plus

Now thats an arsenal! Will you ever use all of them, I certainly hope not. ;)

Treating QT tanks with anything, this would be variable as some people have many tanks and some only have a few. I would go with no for now and simply monitor the fish for the 6 weeks. If they are juvenile fish, I will feed them de worming flake from Angel Plus. Before moving fish from QT to the community tank, I will perform a 10 second HIGH concentration meth blue dip per instructions on the bottle.

Feed the fish when you can, if you can't be around to feed, use an autofeeder as mentioned above. I like to feed juvies first thing when I wake and every 2 hours until I go to sleep. I leave a light on on my juvie tanks and if I get up in the middle of the night, I will give the fish a late night snack. Adults, 3-4 times a day whenever I get around to it. :D

Anything else?

Eddie

[uncle white]

Dang Eddie, you ringing in a little late today. You ignoring my post? J/K. I got ya on bleaching used equipment. What, about a cup to every 10 gallons??

That's one heck of a list for meds there, hope all of them are not too expensive. Besides the salt, which of those should I keep on hand for common problems? Or maybe you could list them in priority for me :D
I'll keep the salts and medicated food on hand definately.

My first batch of discus will all go in the same newly set up empty 55 gal tank. So could I just put them in there once I get them? Since they all came in together from the same supplier? Or use a smaller QT incase I need to medicate them??

That's all I can think of right this minute, but you bet your bottom Yen I'll have more later ... uncle white ...

[Eddie]

Dang Eddie, you ringing in a little late today. You ignoring my post? J/K. I got ya on bleaching used equipment. What, about a cup to every 10 gallons??

That's one heck of a list for meds there, hope all of them are not too expensive. Besides the salt, which of those should I keep on hand for common problems? Or maybe you could list them in priority for me :D
I'll keep the salts and medicated food on hand definately.

My first batch of discus will all go in the same newly set up empty 55 gal tank. So could I just put them in there once I get them? Since they all came in together from the same supplier? Or use a smaller QT incase I need to medicate them??

That's all I can think of right this minute, but you bet your bottom Yen I'll have more later ... uncle white ...

As far as bleaching, I roughly use 1 cup of bleach to 5-6 cups of water for a scrub. I make the solution in a bucket and sponge every part of the tank down. All the seams and corners I hit with a scrub brush. Then I will fill the tank and pour about 4 or 5 cups of bleach in and let it sit over night. Drain and rinse really well, let it air out in the sun and drain and fill a few more times. Then, place the tank where it is gonna end up being and fill it, plus add 4 times the required about of dechlor. Like 4-5 caps of Prime and let that sit a day. Drain and fill again you should be good.

As far as meds, F&MG (QuickCure) for sure and Kanamycin. Thats a good 2 meds to have on hand and the flakes. ;)

Eddie

[uncle white]

THANK for the help there Eddie! I appreciate it!
... uncle whitw ...