Rams as tester fish?

[squid_league]

I've been discussing starting a discus tank with a former breeder. He advised me to try a couple Blue Rams in the tank first because they are very fussy fish. He said if they live the discus should be OK as well. Any thoughts on this?

Other information: Planted tank with substrate, driftwood, and a few rocks. 46 gal bow front. Canister filter. It's been running for 4 weeks, pH is 7.4, I've added cycle and chlorine remover. I also added a Nutrafin product (can't remember the name of it) that has plant extracts that is supposed to make the water softer. It was a black liquid that eventually went clear in the tank.

Thanks.

[dwilder]

imo discus are easier than rams

[squid_league]

Perhaps it's not worth the bother then.

Thanks

[DiscusKeeper403]

Is your tank cycled? If not, neither will survive unless you do massive daily water changes (to get toxic nitrogen out of your water), and those bacteria products are crud for the most part.

[squid_league]

No, the tank has been running for 4 weeks with plants only.

Any suggestions for ideal fish to cycle the tank with?

Thanks for the help.

[squid_league]

It may be important to note that prior to the 4 weeks of running with only plants only I had 6 cichlids in the tank. I moved the aquarium from my old place to new place in 1 day. It was set up within a few hours (minus the cichlids). Chances are there are still bacteria alive in the substrate.

[Disgirl]

Since you had other cichlids in there you may have lots of other things in the substrate besides good bacteria. Most folks here would start out with fresh and cleaned substrate, discus will sicken at the drop of a hat and used substrate could start bad things happening.
Barb:)

[captain morgan]

No, the tank has been running for 4 weeks with plants only.

Any suggestions for ideal fish to cycle the tank with?

Thanks for the help.
Danio's are excellent fish for cycling a tank with, they are very cheap to buy, they are extremely hardy and will live through the worst tank conditions (high ammonia,nitrite etc..) you"ll want to remove them before adding any discus, they dont make good tankmates for discus, they are a bugger to catch though as they are fast as lightening.

[Eddie]

Miracle Grow, thats a good way. LOL No seriously, a fishless cycle is best to eliminate the introduction of parasites.

Eddie

[bs6749]

Danio's are excellent fish for cycling a tank with, they are very cheap to buy, they are extremely hardy and will live through the worst tank conditions (high ammonia,nitrite etc..) you"ll want to remove them before adding any discus, they dont make good tankmates for discus, they are a bugger to catch though as they are fast as lightening.


Miracle Grow, thats a good way. LOL No seriously, a fishless cycle is best to eliminate the introduction of parasites.

Eddie

This thread isn't about how to cycle a tank with or without fish. The purpose is to see if the water is suitable for discus by using a more sensitive fish that is also less expensive.

Rams do tend to be more finicky than discus. Ones that come out of Asia are treated with hormones for coloration and for faster growth and they usually die within a few months. Stay away from those rams or you will have skewed results and will think you water may not be suitable for discus. Get locally bred rams if you can, then wilds as a second choice. Even wilds are hardier than Asian bred rams.

[squid_league]

I got 2 blue rams from Germany and 12 neons that I got dirt cheap to help cycle the tank. The rams look like they're enjoying themselves and are eating like little pigs. They've been in the tank for about 24 hrs now with no signs of stress.

I'll update this post when things change. For now things seem great, but we'll see what happens after a few water changes.

Thanks for any and all info. :)

[Eddie]

This thread isn't about how to cycle a tank with or without fish. The purpose is to see if the water is suitable for discus by using a more sensitive fish that is also less expensive.


Thanks for the update!

Eddie

[DiscusKeeper403]

This thread isn't about how to cycle a tank with or without fish. The purpose is to see if the water is suitable for discus by using a more sensitive fish that is also less expensive.


Well, an uncycled tank would caused water to be unsuitable for both the fish so yes, I would say it's spot on with the thread.


Glad to hear the Rams are doing good. Good luck with the Discus.

[bs6749]

Well, an uncycled tank would caused water to be unsuitable for both the fish so yes, I would say it's spot on with the thread.


Glad to hear the Rams are doing good. Good luck with the Discus.

I see you missed the point where the OP said that the tank had been running for 4 weeks as it currently stands, and prior to that there were fish in the tank. On top of that the tank is planted so any ammonia an nitrates that appear will be taken care of. The tank is or will be cycled very quickly with the addition of a few fish.

The point of this thread wasn't how to properly cycle a tank, rather it was whether or not rams, which tend to be more sensitive to water quality than discus, would be a good fish to test the water prior to adding more costly discus. You missed the point of the thread and need to reread through the posts.

[Eddie]

I see you missed the point where the OP said that the tank had been running for 4 weeks as it currently stands, and prior to that there were fish in the tank. On top of that the tank is planted so any ammonia an nitrates that appear will be taken care of. The tank is or will be cycled very quickly with the addition of a few fish.

The point of this thread wasn't how to properly cycle a tank, rather it was whether or not rams, which tend to be more sensitive to water quality than discus, would be a good fish to test the water prior to adding more costly discus. You missed the point of the thread and need to reread through the posts.

Hey Bryan, just a heads in case you never knew....adding cycle to an empty tank is doing zilch. ;)

Eddie

[bs6749]

Hey Bryan, just a heads in case you never knew....adding cycle to an empty tank is doing zilch. ;)

Eddie

The tank was previously occupied with cichlids. That means that there will be bacteria in the substrate and in the filter still, even if they were rinsed. Though the bacteria numbers may not be there, certainly the types of bacteria needed for the cycle are there. All of the dead bacteria decompose and can be consumed by the other bacteria. What the bacteria doesn't take care of the plants surely will. We are talking about a couple of rams here. I've had 24+ rams in an uncycled 29g tank when I was QTing them. Not even a cycled filter was used. All rams survived on regular water changes.

I never made a statement about adding Cylce to the tank by the way.

[Eddie]

The tank was previously occupied with cichlids. That means that there will be bacteria in the substrate and in the filter still, even if they were rinsed. Though the bacteria numbers may not be there, certainly the types of bacteria needed for the cycle are there. All of the dead bacteria decompose and can be consumed by the other bacteria. What the bacteria doesn't take care of the plants surely will. We are talking about a couple of rams here. I've had 24+ rams in an uncycled 29g tank when I was QTing them. Not even a cycled filter was used. All rams survived on regular water changes.

I never made a statement about adding Cylce to the tank by the way.

Yeah Bryan but thats because you are the best!

Eddie

[bs6749]

No, it's because water changes were done on a regular basis :thumbsup:

[Eddie]

No, it's because water changes were done on a regular basis :thumbsup:

Same thing.....LOL ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[squid_league]

Good to see there are passionate people here ;)

First water change went over without a hitch. I did about 30% and retested the water. All levels are optimum. I'm pretty happy so far. The rams are acting pretty spunky and show no signs of stress.

I think if i can keep this up for 2 weeks I'll add some discus!!!!! woot!

[Eddie]

Good to see there are passionate people here ;)

First water change went over without a hitch. I did about 30% and retested the water. All levels are optimum. I'm pretty happy so far. The rams are acting pretty spunky and show no signs of stress.

I think if i can keep this up for 2 weeks I'll add some discus!!!!! woot!

Sounds great!

Take care,

Eddie

[squid_league]

UPDATE:

The power went out over the weekend and my tank dropped about 3-4 degrees F. The blue rams have a fresh set of eggs on the inside of a sword leaf! They have each been taking turns guarding them and I have seen the female eating the white eggs (fungus I believe).

Does anybody have any experience with breeding blue rams? To be honest I don't really want any more rams in this tank because I want to add discus. But I also don't want to cut my plant. I'm guessing chances are they don't stand much of a chance anyways.

Thanks

[bs6749]

UPDATE:

The power went out over the weekend and my tank dropped about 3-4 degrees F. The blue rams have a fresh set of eggs on the inside of a sword leaf! They have each been taking turns guarding them and I have seen the female eating the white eggs (fungus I believe).

Does anybody have any experience with breeding blue rams? To be honest I don't really want any more rams in this tank because I want to add discus. But I also don't want to cut my plant. I'm guessing chances are they don't stand much of a chance anyways.

Thanks

Cut the leaf and put the eggs into a quart jar or large pickle jar for the best chance of survival. Rams tend to be pretty bad parents initially unless they are closely related to wild stock. They should hatch in 48-60 hours. Most likely the eggs aren't fungused, rather it's bacteria that looks like fungus when it grows. Add 1/2 capful of hydrogen peroxide to the jar every 12 hours until the eggs hatch. This will take care of the bacteria and fungus. Also add an airstone to the tank. Place it about an inch over the eggs and there should be a very slight roll to the surface of the water. When the eggs hatch and the fry are ready to go free swimming (about 3 days after they hatch) pull the airstone. You will need to do large water changes every day, two times or more a day being preferred. The fry should take microworms, walter worms, and vinegar eels as BBS are too large for them. Look for cultures of those now so that you have them when the fry need to be fed.

[fishorama]

I wonder if you don't want ram fry, could you add the discus anyway? A nice source of live food or does it teach discus bad cichlid baby-eating habits for later breeding? I have apistos spawn regularly & don't want to try & raise all the fry. (I meant to ask this soon, not to horn in on your thread)

[squid_league]

Wow... this is pretty incredible.

I came home from work to find that the eggs had hatched! The fry are so small. Looks like maybe 50-80 of them on the side of a rock. Mom and Dad are taking turns being on guard.

Very interesting stuff.... I'll see if I can get some photos if anyone is interested.

[bs6749]

Did the parents move the fry to another spot once they hatched? I've found that if this happens the parents are generally good and will be more successful at raising them naturally.

[squid_league]

Yes, actually. They've moved them from the leaf surface to the backside of a rock in the corner. I didn't witness this happen though. Do they pick them up in their mouths?

The parents have been taking turns guarding them and fighting back the neons. I can't believe how small the fry are. From what I've read it sounds like they may start to swim independently after 2-3 days.

Anyone in Toronto want blue rams? lol

[bs6749]

Yup, they will suck up a bunch at a time and then will spit them out on a new surface. I've seen a female suck up some eggs, swim 6 inches, spit the fry onto a divider, go through the divider and to the other end of the tank, come back and suck up the fry once more, and spit them out in the corner about 6 inches from where the eggs initially were. Pretty cool stuff.

Sorry for the longest recorded run-on sentence.

[exv152]

Would love to see some pics.

[squid_league]

Would love to see some pics.

You can see the tiny fry on the rock below the guarding male. They look like small grey and black specks.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6641/importedphotos00007.th.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/i/importedphotos00007.jpg/)

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6641/importedphotos00007.th.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/i/importedphotos00007.jpg/)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8434/importedphotos00006.th.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/i/importedphotos00006.jpg/)

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8434/importedphotos00006.th.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/i/importedphotos00006.jpg/)

[squid_league]

Would love to see some pics.

I posted some pictures this morning but they still need to be approved by a moderator before they are added to the thread.

I'll add more after these are approved. The fry are now swimming on their own, however, mom and dad are sucking them up and spitting them back towards the rock if they go too far!!! So coo!