I just can’t grow plants

[HHaley]

I’m hoping that someone here can help me gain a green thumb.

I have a planted 90G tank and I just cannot sustain plants. I buy the most stunning plants that my local fish store recommends for a Discus aquarium.

After three weeks, the leaves turn from a dark, green to a pale opaque green and start to die. The leaves become transparent where you can see the leaf veins. On some of the Amazon swords, the tips turn black and later the leaf withers away. The strange part is that a couple of plants seem to do ok.

Here’s my set-up. I have a heated substrate that I keep at 2 degrees higher than the water temperature. I’m not sure of the substrate types but I have three different substrate materials that were recommended by my dealer.

My main filter is an Eheim 2078.

I have an Aquaclear 110 with only Sera super peat.

I currently do not have a CO2 system but that is on my shopping list.

My water temperature is 82.

My substrate temperature is 84.

My PH is around 7.3 to 7.4

My KH is 5. KH was 6 before using super peat in HOB filter.

My Fe is around 0.1mg/l.

Every week, I use NutraFin Plant Gro

My light is a Coralife Freshwater Aqualight Deluxe light strip that I keep on for 8 hours at full power.

I perform 40% water changes with well water from tap every three days.

I have six 4” Discus, two 2.5” discus, 6 small to medium cats and one bushy nose pleco.

Any recommendations?

[Wahter]

I’m hoping that someone here can help me gain a green thumb.

I have a planted 90G tank and I just cannot sustain plants. I buy the most stunning plants that my local fish store recommends for a Discus aquarium.

After three weeks, the leaves turn from a dark, green to a pale opaque green and start to die. The leaves become transparent where you can see the leaf veins. On some of the Amazon swords, the tips turn black and later the leaf withers away. The strange part is that a couple of plants seem to do ok.

Here’s my set-up. I have a heated substrate that I keep at 2 degrees higher than the water temperature. I’m not sure of the substrate types but I have three different substrate materials that were recommended by my dealer.

My main filter is an Eheim 2078.

I have an Aquaclear 110 with only Sera super peat.

I currently do not have a CO2 system but that is on my shopping list.

My water temperature is 82.

My substrate temperature is 84.

My PH is around 7.3 to 7.4

My KH is 5. KH was 6 before using super peat in HOB filter.

My Fe is around 0.1mg/l.

Every week, I use NutraFin Plant Gro

My light is a Coralife Freshwater Aqualight Deluxe light strip that I keep on for 8 hours at full power.

I perform 40% water changes with well water from tap every three days.

I have six 4” Discus, two 2.5” discus, 6 small to medium cats and one bushy nose pleco.

Any recommendations?


A few things to start off:

1.) What is the wattage of the lights in your light strip? The general rule of thumb (although it can be broken depending on what type of plants you have and the size/ depth of you tank) is 2-3 watts per gallon. Also, what type of light is in it? Daylight? Actinic? Actinic doesn't help plants much (it's for corals).

2.) You'll need probably more like 10 hours of light to get good growth. Some people go 12 hours.

3.) Most plants sold in shops are from farms which grow them emerged (literally with their tops out of water) - many stem plants and many sword plants. The emerged leaves usually die off when they are submerged, but the new leaves should grow from there.

4.) CO2 will really help with plants, but you need to be careful with it. Start with a little, observe, then go up. However, even using CO2 won't help if the lighting isn't right. Same with fertilizer - you can pour in gallons, but if the lighting isn't right, it won't help.

Hope that helps,


Walter

[Wahter]

Also, I noticed you're in Massachusetts - I think there's copper in the water there and that also can affect what plants you can keep.

From what I've been told vallisneria cannot tolerate copper very well.



Walter

[wannafish]

Hello! Is this a Miss Haley,

If so, good! Just want to let you know.
I know how you feel. Newbies and I
was one once, want full green tanks right
away. Just plant some plants and whola!
It just doesn't work that way. Planted tanks
get better with age. So you have
to wait a bit. From my experience
and what has been discussed here,
I would first take a look at your substrate,
and then your lighting. 2 key elements.
I would do a lot of reading here and here
http://www.plantedtank.net.

Start out with some fast growing plants.
Buy them from the guys here or online.
Aquabid has good deals too. I just bought
some. My tank was doing really well after
1 1/2 years. And now I have changed the
substrate and starting over. It's a wait and
see project. That's why reading a lot helps.
It's like you learn as you go.

jeff

[grantbudd74]

im i australia and have no issues with copper in the water but given you are changing your water do you re-dose with plant ferts? Also swords are heavy root feeders so root tabs or the like may be an idea?

I think maybe your total watts per gallon is the issue a bit. As previously mentioned swords are grown partially submerged and they grow real BIG! New growth will be a bit smaller though.

Try increasing the light wattage and then see how you go. Co2 is not required for swords but will help them grow if your lighting is high enough. Enjoy it as plans are hard work and then algae well thats another thread!

Enjoy

[Bilbo_wh]

From my experience val can just about be grown in turps.

However there is no special science in keeping plants alive and lets start with that before getting to hung up on growing a huge plant tank.
Plants need plenty of light, food and water.
Water shouldnt be a problem or your discus are in big trouble
Food, Carbon in the form of CO2 and nutrients but as long as your tank is reasonably cycled dont get to hung up on that either just yet.
Light. This is the most important. Lighting should be 1-2 watts per Gallon minimum if your tank isnt more than 600 deep. If your tank is 600mm+ then low plants will have a problem without MH bulbs.
Lights should be 6500k ish 5000 - 8000k will be ok.

I would also try a few diferent types of plants, Java fern and crypts as well as ambulia and val. See which, if any, grow.

[Eddie]

Definitely could be lighting but I found all my swords would die if I didn't use root tabs or fertilizer tabs. Just as you explain, leaves would turn pale then transparent, brown and die. Now I have swords growing out of the tank and I use no Co2 at all. I have about 2 WPG running about 10-12 hours a day. I am also using Coralife Aqualight for freshwater, PC type.

Take care,

Eddie

[HHaley]

Thanks for all the replies.

I don't think it's my lights but it maybe how long that I have them on. My light strip has four 65 watt (6500K) bulbs. The total power output at full power is 260 watts. In a 90 gallon aquarium this equates to 2.89 watts per gallon

I was using the lights for 11 hours a day but ran into an algae problem after a few weeks and my local shop recommended that I cut it down to 7 hours a day.

Based on the feedback, I'll increase my time to 9 hours.

Fertilizing may also be an issue. I have only been fertilizing once a week because the Fe test indicates that I have enough Fe in the water. I’ll also try fertilizing tabs and place one in each of the clusters of plants that are in the tank.

[Eddie]

Thanks for all the replies.

I don't think it's my lights but it maybe how long that I have them on. My light strip has four 65 watt (6500K) bulbs. The total power output at full power is 260 watts. In a 90 gallon aquarium this equates to 2.89 watts per gallon

I was using the lights for 11 hours a day but ran into an algae problem after a few weeks and my local shop recommended that I cut it down to 7 hours a day.

Based on the feedback, I'll increase my time to 9 hours.

Fertilizing may also be an issue. I have only been fertilizing once a week because the Fe test indicates that I have enough Fe in the water. I’ll also try fertilizing tabs and place one in each of the clusters of plants that are in the tank.


Sounds like you have plenty of light so maybe not enough nutrients. I throw 2 tabs per plant once a month and that works for me. I am far from a planted tank guy so I am just happy mine aren't dead! LOL

Take care and best of luck!

Eddie

[H&K.45]

Since your not useing Co2 atm you might want to try doseing your tank with Flourish Excell...its liquid organic carbon I used it with great sucess prior to installing my Co2 system, only downside is that it is kinda spendy.

[rich815]

Do not increase your light time, that is not it. This is my tank and it all grew with 8 hours of light per day:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii147/rich815/IMG_0463-1.jpg

With all due respect people here have great advice regarding discus but a lot of the aquatic plant advice is way off and a lot of well-meaning hearsay. Visit www.plantedtank.net, www.barrreport.com, or www.aquaticplantcentral.com for some wonderful ideas and advice.

In your case some root tabs for swords would help a lot and even though CO2 would be nice it's not needed. Likely you need to do a better macro and micro fert routine.

Here's some good links with some ideas:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fertilizers-water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html

and another:

http://www.barrreport.com/you-new-aquatic-plants-start-here/

[stephcps]

I agree with above poster. Awesome info on discus, not so much for plants. I am relatively new to a planted tank and have found that partly, you have to find what grows well in your tank. I have learned A LOT from the people on Aquariacentral.com. I have also bought a lot of cheap but excellent plants from their classified section. It allowed me to try some things out and not feel so bad if they don't do well. I have about 2 Watts per gallon, no CO2 but dose the flourish line of ferts a few times a week. It is about balance and what the plants like. I am really really good at growing crypts. They love my tanks and do baeutifully, so does moneywort and pennywort. Don't get too frustrated. Hang in there. It is a lot of fun when things start taking off. Check out some other forums when it comes to planted tanks.

[bs6749]

Thanks for all the replies.

I don't think it's my lights but it maybe how long that I have them on. My light strip has four 65 watt (6500K) bulbs. The total power output at full power is 260 watts. In a 90 gallon aquarium this equates to 2.89 watts per gallon

I was using the lights for 11 hours a day but ran into an algae problem after a few weeks and my local shop recommended that I cut it down to 7 hours a day.

Based on the feedback, I'll increase my time to 9 hours.

Fertilizing may also be an issue. I have only been fertilizing once a week because the Fe test indicates that I have enough Fe in the water. I’ll also try fertilizing tabs and place one in each of the clusters of plants that are in the tank.

First, cooler temps are better for most plants. I would get rid of the substrate heater as there is no real need for it.

Secondly, you have a nutrient imbalance in the tank if there is algae present. The duration of your lighting is sufficient, you are just lacking in the nutrients. You say that you have 2.89 "watts per gallon" but watts tells you absolutely nothing. Watts is a unit of energy and it only lets you know how much energy your lights are using. It says nothing about the quality of light that you have on the tank. The lighting that you have is sufficient, actually it's approaching overkill. The "watts per gallon rule" was based on NO (normal output) fluorescent bulbs and not the compact fluorescent style that you have. The bulbs that you have are about 1.35 times more efficient than NO bulbs, so in reality you have 3.9 watts per gallon. This is complete overkill without the use of CO2 and it's the reason you are seeing algae. Your plants can't take advantage of the available nutrients because there isn't sufficient carbon in the tank for them to build, but algae can and do take advantage as they don't require as much carbon to thrive.

I would actually take two of your bulbs out and replace them with actinics. As already mentioned they don't provide useable lighting for your plants and this will bring your "watts per gallon" equivalent in the tank to around 2wpg. You can then do 12 hours of light at this amount and shouldn't see much algae. You should also see better growth. I would add ferts to the tank and you can add Flourish Excel, but it has been known to melt and destroy vals and anacharis among other plants. Swords will be fine with it. They are heavy root feeding plants and would appreciate fertilizer tabs as Eddie mentioned.

If you are thinking of getting a CO2 system you may just want to cut back on the light even more until you get one. I'd do a 5 day blackout over the tank to destroy algae before you put the CO2 on the tank. You also don't need to get actinic bulbs if you are going to invest in a CO2 setup.

[Wahter]

With all due respect people here have great advice regarding discus but a lot of the aquatic plant advice is way off and a lot of well-meaning hearsay. Visit www.plantedtank.net, www.barrreport.com, or www.aquaticplantcentral.com for some wonderful ideas and advice.


Well, if you're going to show photos, here's a planted discus tank I had a couple of years back (I put the plants in pots of Fluorite). 10 hours of light per day, CO2, roughly 160 watts of lighting (mix of compact fluorescent and normal output fluorescent lighting).

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47258&stc=1&d=1250952358

http://www.forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47259&stc=1&d=1250952358

No hearsay from me - I know what works for my conditions.



Walter

[Apistomaster]

Walter,
Very pretty RSG Discus.

If your fixtures allow you to run 1/2 lamps. what I would do at first is to increase the photo-period to 10-11 hours. Initially the plants are unable to use an abundance of energy and nutrients.

Most planted tank beginners buy whatever looked so beautiful in the photos they have seen.
Unfortunately, different plant have different needs and at different stages of ecological succession that occurs in every newly set up aquarium.

Since all plants and water local conditions are not the same, you will have to experiment to find which plants do well in your conditions.
Build out your plant selection based on the genera of plants that did well for you earlier.
As the aquarium becomes well established, that is, more ecologically complex, begin increasing the fertilization, light intensity(use of all lamps) and begin gradually decreasing the length of the photo-period. If you don't shorten the photo-period you would need to use more fertilizer and add CO2.

Once you have a selection of plants doing well for you you will have by then learned a good deal more about growing aquatic than when you began and may begin trying some more demanding plants.

In my not so humble opinion, substrate heating is a waste of money unless your tank is out in the garage during the cool seasons. The cables are also a nuisance whenever you need to vacuum dirt from the substrate. Substrate heating is usually something commercial growers need to use and they are growing aquarium plants in the emersed method.
This was already mentioned as a possibility that your sword plants were losing their old emersed leaves as a stage they go through while they begin to produce the submersed leaves. There is usually a good deal of difference in appearance between the two leaf forms of the same species grown under the two different conditions.

[Apistomaster]

Walter,
Very pretty RSG Discus.

HHally,

If your fixtures allow you to run 1/2 lamps, what I would do at first is to increase the photo-period to 10-11 hours but at half the full potential intensity. Initially the plants are unable to use an abundance of energy and nutrients.

Most planted tank beginners buy whatever looked so beautiful in the photos they have seen.
Unfortunately, different plant have different needs and at different stages of ecological succession that occurs in every newly set up aquarium.

Since all plants and water local conditions are not the same, you will have to experiment to find which plants do well in your conditions.
Build out your plant selection based on the genera of plants that did well for you earlier.
As the aquarium becomes well established, that is, more ecologically complex, begin increasing the fertilization, light intensity(use of all lamps) and begin gradually decreasing the length of the photo-period. If you don't shorten the photo-period you would need to use more fertilizer and add CO2.

Once you have a selection of plants doing well for you you will have by then learned a good deal more about growing aquatic than when you began and may begin trying some more demanding plants.

In my not so humble opinion, substrate heating is a waste of money unless your tank is out in the garage during the cool seasons. The cables are also a nuisance whenever you need to vacuum dirt from the substrate. Substrate heating is usually something commercial growers need to use and they are growing aquarium plants in the emersed method.
This was already mentioned as a possibility that your sword plants were losing their old emersed leaves as a stage they go through while they begin to produce the submersed leaves. There is usually a good deal of difference in appearance between the two leaf forms of the same species grown under the two different conditions.

[fishorama]

I'm not a fabulous plant grower & I don't have as much light as you but I think it's the combo of high light, no CO2 & lack of fertilizers. You can use dry ferts from aquariumfertilizer or others & dose what you need. Look for the EI method (estimative index) to give you an idea of dosing. I'll be trying this soon.

What is you nitrate level? I'm surprised how low mine can get in tanks with only med light, med plant coverage. Plants need ~10-20ppm to grow well, seems like the high end of what we shoot for with discus (I'm a newb).

I'm in Westborough, MA BTW. Which is your LFS? I can spare a few plants to try if you'd like.