Sand for a Discus Tank?

[valery]

Hey guys,
I'm getting a new tank today and I'm very interested in covering the bottom with white sand. Would this be okay for discus? I know they pick at the ground a lot for fallen food, would it be of concern with them picking up the sand?

Thank you in advance
Valery

[csarkar001]

i use a very thin layer of sand and it has worked well. note that the sand will change your pH when you put it in so i would go slow if there are fish in the tank already. also, i would paint the outside bottom of the tank the same color as the sand to help hide places that the sand is not covering.

chandan

[Eddie]

Hey Valery and big WELCOME to Simply. Sand is a very nice substrate for a discus tank. Most use pool filter sand or silica sand. I have used a fine white sand and the fish enjoyed it very much. Not sure if you can get this type of sand, it was inert and made for freshwater aquariums.

Take care,

Eddie

[Daniella]

I would love to put some sand in mine, once my flukes problem is over. What about fine food particles? If I feed beefheart, will that fool the water or are the fish still able to pick at the sand and get the small food particles?

I have lots of fish that like to forage and I thought in nature they do it in the sand..but it's mostly live food I guess so not sure how this would work with messy food?


Hey Valery and big WELCOME to Simply. Sand is a very nice substrate for a discus tank. Most use pool filter sand or silica sand. I have used a fine white sand and the fish enjoyed it very much. Not sure if you can get this type of sand, it was inert and made for freshwater aquariums.

Take care,

Eddie

[Eddie]

I would love to put some sand in mine, once my flukes problem is over. What about fine food particles? If I feed beefheart, will that fool the water or are the fish still able to pick at the sand and get the small food particles?

I have lots of fish that like to forage and I thought in nature they do it in the sand..but it's mostly live food I guess so not sure how this would work with messy food?

I wouldn't feed messy foods too often with a sand/substrate tank. For adults being fed less frequently and of cleaner foods, sand would be ideal IMO.

Eddie

[valery]

Hey Valery and big WELCOME to Simply. Sand is a very nice substrate for a discus tank. Most use pool filter sand or silica sand. I have used a fine white sand and the fish enjoyed it very much. Not sure if you can get this type of sand, it was inert and made for freshwater aquariums.

Take care,

Eddie

Yes, I believe I can get the fine sand (suitable for freshwater and saltwater). Thanks a lot Eddie! Beautiful discus by the way!! =]

[valery]

i use a very thin layer of sand and it has worked well. note that the sand will change your pH when you put it in so i would go slow if there are fish in the tank already. also, i would paint the outside bottom of the tank the same color as the sand to help hide places that the sand is not covering.

chandan

Thank you for the reply Chandan! Do you know if it will lower or increase the pH? I've read that Discus like low pH. I'm keeping mine at around 6.5. And I'm hoping to get quite a bit of the sand because it will be a planted.

Valery

[Islesfan]

Do you know if it will lower or increase the pH?
Valery

If you use pool filter sand, which is inert, it won't change your PH. If you use something that is sold for Saltwater aqauriums it will make your PH rise. Pool filter sand is also much cheaper than sand from LFS.

[Darrell Ward]

I have successfully used pool filter sand in the past. But as with any substrate, it will trap debris no matter how "good" you think you are stirring and cleaning it. I slowly pulled the sand from all of my tanks, and I don't miss it one bit. You will be surprised if you pull your "kept clean" sand from a tank that has been running for a year or more. The amount of discolored water that rises up out of the sand when you remove it is alarming.

[Apistomaster]

I started this thread where we discussed the merits of the different sand one can use in Discus tanks here.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=73326

Using sand always means more maintenance work but Discus love to pick through it and wild Discus especially are more at ease in a tank with at least a thin layer of sand.

Domestic Discus have changed in many ways from their wild cousins but they still like sand.
The play sand and pool filter sand are both well suited to use in Discus tanks but because they are very fine grained the oxygenated water does not freely circulate through them.
Either use a thin layer of 1/2" thick or no more than 2 inches provided you regularly and thoroughly hydro-vac it to keep it clean.

[Daniella]

How do you prevent the sand from going in the tube when you vaccum? I use a python and it was quite a succion. I remember that I sometimes had gravel going through it and it was much more coarse. The sand would just go out with the water I am guessing, when using a python?


I started this thread where we discussed the merits of the different sand one can use in Discus tanks here.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=73326

Using sand always means more maintenance work but Discus love to pick through it and wild Discus especially are more at ease in a tank with at least a thin layer of sand.

Domestic Discus have changed in many ways from their wild cousins but they still like sand.
The play sand and pool filter sand are both well suited to use in Discus tanks but because they are very fine grained the oxygenated water does not freely circulate through them.
Either use a thin layer of 1/2" thick or no more than 2 inches provided you regularly and thoroughly hydro-vac it to keep it clean.

[tcyiu]

Valery,
Welcome. As for sand affecting your water chemistry, silicon based sand (e.g. silica quartz etc) will not change the parameters. Unfortunately, white silica sand can be hard to find depending on which part of the world you're in. If you're lucky, it can be readily available and cheap. In my case, I was not lucky and had to spend $40 for 50 pounds of 3M Colorquartz.

Most white "sand" is calcium based (typically from crushed corals). These will raise the hardness of your water and affect the pH. These sands are typically used for saltwater and African cichlid aquariums. The best way to test any candidate sand would be to drip acid on a small sample. If the acid starts to bubbles, the sand is no good for your discus tank. If nothing happens, then chances are good it'll be OK. If you're still unsure, you can take a sample, boil the heck out of it in a little bit of water and test the water for hardness.

David,
I think the purpose of periodically stirring the thin layer of sand around is not to increase the good bacteria (which as you said, you already have in the filters). The idea is that the oxygen (and light) will discourage the bad bacteria (anaerobic bacteria) from forming. These guys will generate toxic byproducts if left to grow in the dark recesses of deep substrate.

Tim

[Apistomaster]

Even with a Python you only have to kink the hose enough to find the ideal suction force for the sand. You just want to lift it up into the large cylinder, let it tumble until the dirt is removed then kink the hose off completely and let the sand fall back into place. Move on to the next adjacent area and repeat. Follow a pattern of slightly overlapping areas and in the end all your sand will be cleaned and still in the aquarium and not down the drain.
It is an easy skill to learn.

[csarkar001]

Thank you for the reply Chandan! Do you know if it will lower or increase the pH? I've read that Discus like low pH. I'm keeping mine at around 6.5. And I'm hoping to get quite a bit of the sand because it will be a planted.

Valery

I bought my sand at Home Depot (very cheap) but it did raise the pH temporarily. despite my best efforts i loose some each time i vacuum so i add a handful back but that amount is too small to move the pH needle.
have to admit that feeding beefheart does become a problem with the sand. i find it works better if i cut the frozen piece into three or four smaller nuggets and only feed one at a time. takes longer but less gets wasted/stuck in the sand. sand is more work but i dont like a bare bottom on a show tank. i wouldnt do sand on a growout though.

[Darrell Ward]

While it may be more natural to have sand in a discus tank, I've found the fish don't seem to care one way or the other. They pick food off the bottom with sand, and the same fish pick food off the bottom without sand, even my wilds.

[exv152]

I bought a bag from home depot too, a bag of sandbox playsand for kids, and it's worked fine, no problems with pH. Cost me $6.39 for a 20kg bag (44 lbs) and its clean and natural looking.

[Apistomaster]

I was a certified building materials laboratory tech, expert in concrete mix designs that use those sands, and registered special inspector of high rise construction for 28 years. I happen to know that the sands we are all discussing have a specific gravity of 2.65 +/- 0.02= 2.65 times the weight of an equal volume of pure water.

I know it is fine and easily siphoned out but not if the flow control is handled more carefully.
Practice more until you get the flow just right and you can clean the sand as I have described. I'm using sand in my 125 gal planted Discus tank finer than anything you guys can buy. All that purchased sand was sieved to meet a specification. I collected it from a high mountain river.
I designed a special pipe system running under the sand and pump oxygenated water from the bottom up through it to prevent it from going anaerobic.

[Chad Hughes]

I was a certified building materials laboratory tech, expert in concrete mix designs that use those sands, and registered special inspector of high rise construction for 28 years. I happen to know that the sands we are all discussing have a specific gravity of 2.65 +/- 0.02= 2.65 times the weight of an equal volume of pure water.

I know it is fine and easily siphoned out but not if the flow control is handled more carefully.
Practice more until you get the flow just right and you can clean the sand as I have described. I'm using sand in my 125 gal planted Discus tank finer than anything you guys can buy. All that purchased sand was sieved to meet a specification. I collected it from a high mountain river.
I designed a special pipe system running under the sand and pump oxygenated water from the bottom up through it to prevent it from going anaerobic.

That sounds fancy! Care to share the actual design? I like to use sand to, but I mine my sand at the Lemon Grove home depot. :p

[discusjoe27]

hate to high-jack, but what's the best way of getting pool filter sand out the tank. should I just get a plastic cup and scoop it out or what?

[Chad Hughes]

Get a large hose (3/4" to 1") and start a siphon. That will likely get most of it out of there. You could also use a wet dry vac. Depends on how much sand you are talking about.

Best wishes!

[discusjoe27]

Get a large hose (3/4" to 1") and start a siphon. That will likely get most of it out of there. You could also use a wet dry vac. Depends on how much sand you are talking about.

Best wishes!


what if I still have my discus in the tank, and no place to put them, with the tank still filled up. the driftwood is getting chopped up by the clown plecos, which is making part of the sand look like it's poop. should I dump the sand right in to the bushes by my front window out side? I need to do a water change anyways. would it be ok to use my 25ft. phantom phyon?

[Apistomaster]

I remove the sand with the fish in place. It will make a temporary mess but that is harmless. I push all the sand to one end of the tank the scoop it out. Once most of the sand has been removed it is easy to siphon the remaining sand out of the tank. I do this with the Discus in the tank. I do remove any wood or rocks before beginning the job so the Discus don't crash into them when they spook. Nothing quite as drastic as using a wet/dry vacuum is need to do this job.

About the under sand water system I built for my 125 gal planted wild Discus tank, I will go back an locate the thread I started that shows the stages of the design of the 'under ground sprinkler system I built and the DIY wet/dry filter I built and post the link to the thread soon. When I set up my wild Discus pairs in their own breeding tanks I use the bare bottom minimalist set up most of us use to breed any discus. They do not really absolutely have to have any sand in their tank. It is only when we try to mimic their biotope that using and choosing the 'right' sand matters.

[Apistomaster]

Here is the link to my wild Discus tank infrastructure design.
The only things that have changed are that I have removed two mated pairs since I first set it up and I think the last 2 Discus are also probably a pair and Heiko Bleher, having seen some photos of the fish decided they were Alenquer area Discus instead of Nhamunda area Discus as they were sold.
To me, since both locales produce many Discus with a strong red overtones of their base body color, I doubt anyone can be sure where they were collected unless they personally collected them.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=66500

[discusjoe27]

I have the scilica pool filter sand, to much the driftwood has been ate by the clown plecos, and I need to take it out.

[Apistomaster]

Hi DiscusJoe,
Why not remove the Panque maccus, Clown plecos instead and leave in your wood?
P. maccus are a small species by Panaque standards but even so, they can generate a lot of "saw dust". All Panaque species eat a great deal of wood. They are absolutely useless plecos for algae eating purposes. I would keep a Bushy Nose in your tank for general algae control and choose some Hypancistrus spp or Peckoltia species as interesting and attractive Plecos. They eat the same food as Discus, thrive at Discus water temperatures and one of these will eat as much food off the bottom as 3-4 Corydoras. They will also explore the wood in search of aquatic insects out of instinct even though you don't have aquatic insect larvae in your tank on your wood. The Hypancistrus spp and Peckoltia spp are primarily predators that prey on aquatic insect larvae off wood and river bottom rocks. They are small and not messy species of plecos.

[discusjoe27]

thanks what are the common names for

Hypancistrus spp or Peckoltia

[Apistomaster]

thanks what are the common names for

Hypancistrus spp or Peckoltia

Hi Joe,
You are opening quite a can of worms with your question. Right now, hundreds of plecos don't even have scientific names. In order to have some kind of handle so fish keepers couldd know what each other were talking about, the German Fish magazine came up with the "L-Number" system, L standing for Loricariidae. planetcatfish.com has all the known L-Numbers listed, photos, range, requirements, common names if any and breeding type if known. There are well over 400 L-Number plecos cataloged. Just as the popularity of small Brazilian pleco species was peaking Brazil banned the export of the most popular species which mainly are Hypancistrus species. Not a sales pitch but I raise 2 of the banned Hypancistrus species plus one Peckoltia species that is likely to become banned for export soon. It does have a common name, Leopard Frog Pleco. There are still some beautiful Hypancistrus coming out of Colombia that are from the Orinoco border areas with Colombia, Venezuela is in a p*ssing contest with the USA and will not allow collectors to send fish to us. Only those the Colombian exporters can collect are showing up here. These species are mostly small. 3-1/2" to 4"
The most famous species is Hypancistrus zebra, Zebra Plecos, but they are typically $250 each.
Tiger Plecos are one nice species which can often be found for $20.
L201 is all black with bright white-yellow polka dots and also about $20
Colombian Zebra Plecos L270 is about $35.
L129 is another marbled striped species that runs about $25
Here are a few photos of some I have or have had. They should give you an idea of the many, many others that are related. Everyone in the fish business uses the L-numbers instead of names.
Tiger Pleco, Peckoltia vittata L15
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/Peckoltiaspecies0003-1.jpg
Leopard Frog Pleco, Peckoltia sp L134. Adult with fry.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/L134nursery4.jpg
Leopard frog Pleco Peckoltia sp L134 1-1/2" juveniles. Bands turn to stripes and spots like adult above.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/L134stock.jpg
Hypancistrus sp L401
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/HypancistrusL3330006.jpg
Hypancistrus sp sp Rio Curuai
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/P6110038.jpg

[discusjoe27]

I have some bristle nose plecos. would a gold nugget pleco work?
I also have some green cory catfish, and some bumble bee catfish.

[Apistomaster]

Gold Nuggets are a nice pleco for a Discus tank. The main problem with gold nuggets is that they are one of the most difficult Plecos to keep in the long run. They need both frozen blood worms and plenty of vegetable matter like zucchini. Most green beans are good, especially canned type. Gold Nuggets grow to be 8 to 12 inches in the wild but they don't grow that large in captivity. Possibly because their nutritional needs are difficult to duplicate.
They are relatively cheap because the juveniles do occur in large numbers under rocks in the shallow edges of the river. The vast majority of those collected die within one year but some experienced pleco keepers keep them going for 7-8 years but they never grow to their potential full size. They are one of the most difficult species to breed and it has only been done a few times.

[05 LL Stang]

I love the Leopard frog Plecos! I think I like them more than my royal I had.