Basic Philosophy of Keeping Discus

[Sheldon Goldstien]

inmho..again its just my ideas. Ones minds must become atuned to the fish. What do i mean by this. Discus are basically slow moving fish. In the wild they are called shoaling fish. They school up in single file up against usually a log lying flat in the sand in very calm waters. The large males are slightly in front of the smaller females and younger fish. They can be very territorial and aggressive if need be. Usually they are calm and relaxed. They also can be found in the water column mid way. A good sign of health for tanked discus is them swimming in the mid section of the water. Breathing should be very slow. Water temp for these wilds varies from 72 to 88. Depending on time of year and intensity of rainfall. Temp for tanked discus contrary to poluar belief should be 78. The higher water temps that i see are common amongst todays hobbyist inmho are way to high and are the cause of premature aging and disease problems. Discus in the wild eat crustaceans, small insects that fall into the water or land on the surface, small worms and even small minnows.
The best food for tank raised discus are a SEA FOOD MIX. again just be talking my way of doing discus. This sea food mix greatly lessens the chance of infection, since almost all salt water pathogens can not make the jump to fresh water. Cryptobia is one of the few that can. Feed small fish 3 times a day. Juveniles twice a day. Adults once a day unless preparing them to spawn in which case one wants to gradually increase their diets by twice leading up to 3 days before fish will spawn. Then power feed them. Increase feedings up to 4 times a day. After you see fish spawn a few times you will better understand. A good breeder can virtually time when the fish will spawn and manipulate his fish for the maxium performance by both male and female.

Phone

Sheldon

[Chad Hughes]

Just curious where you learned this and what your references are.

Best wishes!

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Just curious where you learned this and what your references are.

Best wishes!

its just the knowledge i have. I went to South America and visited some tributaries and saw the fish in the wild. Took water temp, ph, etc. Have been tending discus for 35 years. no biggy

Sheldon

[Eddie]

its just the knowledge i have. I went to South America and visited some tributaries and saw the fish in the wild. Took water temp, ph, etc. Have been tending discus for 35 years. no biggy

Sheldon

So nothing farm raised then? Anything from the last 3 decades or just wilds?

[wgtaylor]

its just the knowledge i have. I went to South America and visited some tributaries and saw the fish in the wild. Took water temp, ph, etc. Have been tending discus for 35 years. no biggy

Sheldon

Sheldon, know you have been around a while,
what tributaries, temp, ph, tds? Dry season only?
Thanks Bill

[DLock3d]

Very interesting thread. It shows that many people have success doing things in so many different ways.

[Chad Hughes]

its just the knowledge i have. I went to South America and visited some tributaries and saw the fish in the wild. Took water temp, ph, etc. Have been tending discus for 35 years. no biggy

Sheldon

That's very interesting. I wasn't making a big deal of it, just curious where you got that information. Most of us have Asian or German stock. I can't say that the environment of the wild discus still applies to these discus. There's been quite an evolution in discus, but I'm sure you know that.

Best wishes!

[DLock3d]

That's very interesting. I wasn't making a big deal of it, just curious where you got that information. Most of us have Asian or German stock. I can't say that the environment of the wild discus still applies to these discus. There's been quite an evolution in discus, but I'm sure you know that.

Best wishes!

whatever flake

[Chad Hughes]

whatever flake

I got your flake. ;)

[Eddie]

Very interesting thread. It shows that many people have success doing things in so many different ways.

Or it actually shows how the world of discus has evolved into a completely different era. ;)

Eddie

[DiscusKeeper403]

Someone else raised the fact that temp. found in the wild is much lower then what we normally keep our Discus in. I believe Heiko Blehr was talking about this in an article in PFK. I have to argue though, that domestic Discus at this stage are quite a bit different from wilds. I would think keeping them in a lower temp. for a long period of time would probably stress them and thus you would end up with sick Discus. You also have to keep in mind, as you say, temperature fluctuates in the wild greatly.

Just my .02 anyways.

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Someone else raised the fact that temp. found in the wild is much lower then what we normally keep our Discus in. I believe Heiko Blehr was talking about this in an article in PFK. I have to argue though, that domestic Discus at this stage are quite a bit different from wilds. I would think keeping them in a lower temp. for a long period of time would probably stress them and thus you would end up with sick Discus. You also have to keep in mind, as you say, temperature fluctuates in the wild greatly.

Just my .02 anyways.

Thanks for your input..Discus are Discus..even new colored fish are still what they are. Discus. Identical as wilds, in fact they are wilds disguised. If you would allow these super colored fish back into the wild. Within 2 or three generations that same super red fish or blue fish would start to look like similar fish it was originally made from. The reds would become browns the blues, greens or some similar style. Within ten years they would all have lost their super colored traits. Discus are much healthier and happier at temps between 78 and 80..Try it and see for yourself

Sheldon

[roclement]

Sheldon,

Ineteresting point of view and observations, I almost agree with you, some points...

Domestic fish if released in a wild population will revert back to nature, if they survive long enough to cross breed with wilds, I doubt that would happen since our domestic fish would contract disease and die in days...Watley released some of fish in Guiana back int he 80's, kinda hoping to see Watley discus develop there, how naive we were! Not only that didn't happen, but most people today would frown appon that action! Theroretically what you state is 100% true, but in practical terms I can't see it happening, but again, theoretically true.

These fish we have are no where near as hardy or adaptable as wild fish, these strains grow so weak from inbreeding that good breeders have to re-introduce wild strains back into their lines in order to strenghthen them a bit, look at Blue Diamonds as an example, they got so far removed from strong lines that breeders are mixing them up back with other starins to fix problems like digestive tract underdevelopment, etc.

Another point is that almost everyone keeps fish now for less then 5 yeras in a tank, they either trade them, or kill them, even if unintentionaly...so there is really no long term studies, that I know of, tha has scientifically determined that we are affecting the longevity, or strengh of the fish. While logic (and me) agree with you, we just don't have thescience to back it up.

I don't agree with the temperature issue, JMO, but just like any other animal, if it was born and raised in a specific environmment, it has addapted to it. Can it addapt to another temp, of course, but will I try that with my expensive fish, no thanks! My common sense logic has always followed the basic, slow is good approach so when I get fish in, I ask the seller what his params are and try to mimic them as close as possible, and then slowly bring them to my personal preffered params, so temperature changes are very possible, I am just not sure that they are better or worse.

I love this thread, this is the kinda discussion that I remeber happening here! All my statements are my observations, not FACT, and not in any way scientifical!

Rod

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Sheldon,

Ineteresting point of view and observations, I almost agree with you, some points...

Domestic fish if released in a wild population will revert back to nature, if they survive long enough to cross breed with wilds, I doubt that would happen since our domestic fish would contract disease and die in days...Watley released some of fish in Guiana back int he 80's, kinda hoping to see Watley discus develop there, how naive we were! Not only that didn't happen, but most people today would frown appon that action! Theroretically what you state is 100% true, but in practical terms I can't see it happening, but again, theoretically true.

These fish we have are no where near as hardy or adaptable as wild fish, these strains grow so weak from inbreeding that good breeders have to re-introduce wild strains back into their lines in order to strenghthen them a bit, look at Blue Diamonds as an example, they got so far removed from strong lines that breeders are mixing them up back with other starins to fix problems like digestive tract underdevelopment, etc.

Another point is that almost everyone keeps fish now for less then 5 yeras in a tank, they either trade them, or kill them, even if unintentionaly...so there is really no long term studies, that I know of, tha has scientifically determined that we are affecting the longevity, or strengh of the fish. While logic (and me) agree with you, we just don't have thescience to back it up.

I don't agree with the temperature issue, JMO, but just like any other animal, if it was born and raised in a specific environmment, it has addapted to it. Can it addapt to another temp, of course, but will I try that with my expensive fish, no thanks! My common sense logic has always followed the basic, slow is good approach so when I get fish in, I ask the seller what his params are and try to mimic them as close as possible, and then slowly bring them to my personal preffered params, so temperature changes are very possible, I am just not sure that they are better or worse.

I love this thread, this is the kinda discussion that I remeber happening here! All my statements are my observations, not FACT, and not in any way scientifical!

Rod

Hi Rod..thanks for your excellent reply..concerning temp.. Temps above 80 inmho tend to hyper the fish. They swim around to fast for my liking. Of course i have some modern strains. So i can say at least for me they do just fine and dandy in the 78/80 param. In Asia i think temps are about what mine are. Almost all exported fish are raised in out door type compounds where temps fluctuate from 78/84. Almost all exported fish are raised in filtered river water which is about 78/80 degrees.

Best..Sheldon

[DiscusKeeper403]

Thanks for your input..Discus are Discus..even new colored fish are still what they are. Discus. Identical as wilds, in fact they are wilds disguised. If you would allow these super colored fish back into the wild. Within 2 or three generations that same super red fish or blue fish would start to look like similar fish it was originally made from. The reds would become browns the blues, greens or some similar style. Within ten years they would all have lost their super colored traits. Discus are much healthier and happier at temps between 78 and 80..Try it and see for yourself

Sheldon

Yes, I just think they are probably adapted to a temperature of around 30C, if they have been raised in it their whole life and their parents, and their parents, and their parents etc. Takes many generations to create the strains we see today, all of which I would argue have been kept in around 30C temperature.

I definitley agree though, introducing fish back into the wild would be a major fail. Not only would most of them get targeted by prey for their amazing patterns and colors (standing out that much) but as the above stated, they would probably end up dying off from disease. I know you were using that as an example, but I thought for fun, I would add onto it :p

[DiscusKeeper403]

Hi Rod..thanks for your excellent reply..concerning temp.. Temps above 80 inmho tend to hyper the fish. They swim around to fast for my liking.


Probably due to a higher metabolism?

[Chad Hughes]

Hi Rod..thanks for your excellent reply..concerning temp.. Temps above 80 inmho tend to hyper the fish. They swim around to fast for my liking. Of course i have some modern strains. So i can say at least for me they do just fine and dandy in the 78/80 param. In Asia i think temps are about what mine are. Almost all exported fish are raised in out door type compounds where temps fluctuate from 78/84. Almost all exported fish are raised in filtered river water which is about 78/80 degrees.

Best..Sheldon

I've seen some pictures of discus in the wild that are pretty big. If their metabolism in the wild is slower due to cooler temps, how long does it take them to get so large? I know with captive breeds, the high temps and hyper activity tend to contribute to fast, robust growth.

[ShinShin]

While I do agree with the diet suggestion, I tend to disagree with 78F being an optimal temperature for keeping discus. I have spawned discus at that temp, but found that most discus become a bit lethargic at temps below 80F. Mayland's and Wattley's findings differ from what you have posted. I have read where Jack found discus in 78F, it was not common or the norm. I agree that no one need keep discus above 82F, however.

The genetics in every color variation found in domestic discus can be found in wild discus. It has to be. The reason they are not found has little to do with being easy targets for predators as it is that selective breeding done in the domestic discus industry is responsible for keeping a red fish red, blue fish blue. This sort of breeding does not take place in the wild. If a lake uninhabited by wild discus were stocked with 100 pairs of red melons, red melons would be what inhabited that lake forever as the dominate discus, providing no other discus would be introduced. The only exceptions may be if a natural mutation occurred in this lake. This mutation would be faded out eventually, because no one is there to manipulate how this discus would spawn. To suggest that a blue or red fish would be elimenated because of color would be absurd. Just ask any cardinal tetra. This is the reason why a red melon discus released back into the wild would eventually revert back to wild coloration if introduced into, say the Rio Negro or Lago Tefe, it has been crossed with wild strains. They would not seek out another red or blue fish to breed.

Mat

[Sheldon Goldstien]

While I do agree with the diet suggestion, I tend to disagree with 78F being an optimal temperature for keeping discus. I have spawned discus at that temp, but found that most discus become a bit lethargic at temps below 80F. Maynard's and Wattley's findings differ from what you have posted. I have read where Jack found discus in 78F, it was not common or the norm. I agree that no one need keep discus above 82F, however.

The genetics in every color variation found in domestic discus can be found in wild discus. It has to be. The reason they are not found has little to do with being easy targets for predators as it is that selective breeding done in the domestic discus industry is responsible for keeping a red fish red, blue fish blue. This sort of breeding does not take place in the wild. If a lake uninhabited by wild discus were stocked with 100 pairs of red melons, red melons would be what inhabited that lake forever as the dominate discus, providing no other discus would be introduced. The only exceptions may be if a natural mutation occurred in this lake. This mutation would be faded out eventually, because no one is there to manipulate how this discus would spawn. To suggest that a blue or red fish would be elimenated because of color would be absurd. Just ask any cardinal tetra. This is the reason why a red melon discus released back into the wild would eventually revert back to wild coloration if introduced into, say the Rio Negro or Lago Tefe, it has been crossed with wild strains. They would not seek out another red or blue fish to breed.

Mat

Hi Mat..thanks for your ideas. Discus tend to reverse their color traits if they are not line bred. Even line breeding tends to degrade over a number of generations. One only has to look at the patterns on many of these new fish and compare them to wild patterns to see this. Simply because the color has been enhanced by in line breeding, taking a morph and developing it. Just allow for random mating within this group and before you know it. These same red fish will start to throw throwbacks, and after 3 generations will look very much like the browns they were made from originally. I feel we are splitting hairs over the temp. 78/ 82 fine...

Best

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

I've seen some pictures of discus in the wild that are pretty big. If their metabolism in the wild is slower due to cooler temps, how long does it take them to get so large? I know with captive breeds, the high temps and hyper activity tend to contribute to fast, robust growth.

Hi.. thanks again for your ideas. I must respectfully disagree with your assumptions. In the wild the fish find this 78 temp normal. They grow large because their enviroment is rich in protien rich food sources. In tanked discus, the hyper temps that are common today are normal for them as well. Hi protien foods etc. My point. the systems on board each type of fish creates HOMOSTASIS. For each of the two examples..Homostasis is the keyword.
When i was in SA we went fishing for some larger type of discus which were completly eatable. The man who took us here and there cooked them up with potatoes. It wasnt Halibut.. A bit boney but tastey . These larger discus i believe were some of the wild stock Watley and Focke used in their breeding programs. They were blueish. Some of them had a deeper coloration.

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Probably due to a higher metabolism?

See reply to avionics..Thanks


Sheldon

[DiscusKeeper403]

I've seen some pictures of discus in the wild that are pretty big. If their metabolism in the wild is slower due to cooler temps, how long does it take them to get so large? I know with captive breeds, the high temps and hyper activity tend to contribute to fast, robust growth.

I have heard it takes much longer for Discus to reach their adult size in the wild compared to tank raised Discus.

[Sheldon Goldstien]

I have heard it takes much longer for Discus to reach their adult size in the wild compared to tank raised Discus.

Thanks for your ideas. First how can we define maturity? Do we say 5 inches or do we say first spawn ? What do you say ?

Sheldon

[DiscusKeeper403]

Thanks for your ideas. First how can we define maturity? Do we say 5 inches or do we say first spawn ? What do you say ?

Sheldon

I think it takes longer in the wild for Discus to reach both sexual maturity and adults size. From what I have heard it can take up to two years before they reach their peak size, whereas in tank raised fish it can take as little as 9 or 10 months.

[roclement]

good thread!

my views...discus in the wild tend to be smaller in part beacause the older, larger fish get eaten...or simply die...when I had wilds back in my childhood in Brasil, the biggest ones we saw were 4 to 5 inches, they would live about 4/5 months and die, we knew little about proper care, etc...floss in a corner filter ruled and heaters where a luxury...

I remember vividly when I saw my first discus in the wild...I can never forget that! the fish collected where separated by size, bigger ones were stew, the smaller ones where shipped. This kinda worked well since the smaller fish shipped better and survived better. A collector back then ate part of his catch since the big fish were kind of a loss anyway...

These wild browns I just bought from Hans bear little semblence to the ones I had in Brasil, these are healthy, large, eat anything, and coexist with hybrids in hight temp waters. I am sure that at least part of this is due to proper collection practices, as well as the value of Discus in the current market.

Even going back only a couple of years, say 1999, wild discus dropped in value considerably since hybrids where flooding the market from Asia...why have a brown fish with some red, when you can have a red fish!? Now it seems that hybrids have caught up to our indiscriminate inbreeding. Many of the original hybrid strains are gone, and a lot of the current strains have develomental problems. Now wilds are again rising in price and importance since alot of breeders want them to cross back into their strains.

Stendker has some great looking "wild-like" fish, healthy as can be...why...beacuse they breed for longevity and quality. Not the same can be said about a lot of the new designer strains, many will just disappear, like a fad...

I like "wild" looking discus but appreciate the hardiness of some of these "wild-like" strains that can live in 7PH and will adapt to any water conductivity, my favorite fish in my tanks are the 3 browns I just got from Hans...and guess what...what fish would you think Hans has in his show tank in his warehouse...?

I am curoius to see how big my wilds get in my care, with hight protein foods, sterile environment, and high temparature tanks.

Rod

[Sheldon Goldstien]

I was thinking about water. We have discussed temp and some genetic characteristics. Water is worthy of a large discussion. There are varied ideas and varying ways of doing water. I myself have well water. It is extremely cold and has some dissolved white sulphur in it. This white sulphur water is very healthy to bathe in. In the early part of the 1900s this white sulphur water was considered the finest water on earth. Many people from all over the world came to my area to visit the SPAS..It was a bit fady. But there is some scientific evidence to it. White sulphur dehydrated from this water is better none as MSM. So people who drink this water tend to have less arthritis. Less pain in their old bones. Up here on the farm we drink it without a thought. We have to have filtered water for guests. This white sulphur also is fantastic for gardens and guess what. The fish are very fond of it. It acts as a great deterant to columnarus and fungal infections. In fact i havent seen any hard disease in years and years. For those who dont have white sulphur water and use tap water, and this is the majority. One must use some common sense and a little science to have very fine water for your fish.

Some things you can do

1. Call your water company and ask for water reports
2. Do some research about the findings
3. Install a large carbon filter on the tap you use for water for the fish
4. Use RO water
5. Use a sump for water storage airated and aged

My advice

Always age your water
Do not use Prime or any other dechlor products
Always have a secondary tank ready to go..this tank can also be the tank you use to refill primary tank with H20

I would greatly appreciate your ideas

Thanks

Sheldon baleing hay

[Disgirl]

Do not use Prime or any other dechlor products

Sheldon, why do you say this? I choose to do wc's straight from my tap, and have lots of chlorine in the water. Is Prime bad for the fish? I use it every day. Can you tell us what state you live in with the white sulphur water? Does your water smell like sulphur or is it the yellow sulphur that smells like rotten eggs?
Barb :)

[Tito]

Hey Sheldon,

I love it when someone speaks from experience and not something else. I will take you up on some of your tips. Thanks a hell of a lot!

I'm so glad I only type in a sentence or two in this or any forum these days. I think my blood preasure has normalized now. LOL

[Eddie]

Hey Sheldon,

I love it when someone speaks from experience and not something else. I will take you up on some of your tips. Thanks a hell of a lot!

I'm so glad I only type in a sentence or two in this or any forum these days. I think my blood preasure has normalized now. LOL

Don't confuse age with experience. ;)

Eddie

[yim11]

Always age your water
Do not use Prime or any other dechlor products
Always have a secondary tank ready to go..this tank can also be the tank you use to refill primary tank with H20


It's my understanding that aging water doesn't work in areas where city water is treated with chloramines. As I understand it, you can remove chloramines with an aging process and breakpoint chlorination, but even then you still have to use a dechlor to remove the resulting chlorine.

Does your advice take in account water treated with chloramines?

Thanks,
-jim

[Tito]

Don't confuse age with experience. ;)

Eddie

Dude really whatever man. I dont even know your angle. But I'll assume you meant something funny so I guess we can do a LOL

What I know is that what Sheldon said makes sense to me and I guess that's all that matters.

I'm certain it doesn't make sense to someone else but that's life.

Sheldon - thanks.

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Do not use Prime or any other dechlor products

Sheldon, why do you say this? I choose to do wc's straight from my tap, and have lots of chlorine in the water. Is Prime bad for the fish? I use it every day. Can you tell us what state you live in with the white sulphur water? Does your water smell like sulphur or is it the yellow sulphur that smells like rotten eggs?
Barb :)

Here is my thinking..These products tend to cause spikes in Ph up or down, or do an incomplete job of illiminating the toxic agents in ones water treatment plant water. The reason for aging your water is this. By ageing and airating, using carbon filter on your water line you can virtually assure yourself that your water will be almost free of chlorine and chloramines. I think ageing the water for 24 hrs is sufficient.

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

It's my understanding that aging water doesn't work in areas where city water is treated with chloramines. As I understand it, you can remove chloramines with an aging process and breakpoint chlorination, but even then you still have to use a dechlor to remove the resulting chlorine.

Does your advice take in account water treated with chloramines?

Thanks,
-jim

Can you be more specific. I wasnt aware that the ageing process and intense airation coupled with a good carbon filter was not adequate..Maybe when you call the water company and speak with the water quality guy he can lead us to a more accurate understanding
Thanks so much

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Dude really whatever man. I dont even know your angle. But I'll assume you meant something funny so I guess we can do a LOL

What I know is that what Sheldon said makes sense to me and I guess that's all that matters.

I'm certain it doesn't make sense to someone else but that's life.

Sheldon - thanks.

Hi Tito..im not always right. Not by any means..im simply suggesting and saying how i do things. There are many RIGHTWAYS..doing for yourself is always the best way. research, listen then adjust for your own way

Best

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Don't confuse age with experience. ;)

Eddie

Hi Eddie..how you doing. Or, dont confuse experience with age. The question always is the answer and the answer is always the question.

Sheldon

[Eddie]

Dude really whatever man. I dont even know your angle. But I'll assume you meant something funny so I guess we can do a LOL

What I know is that what Sheldon said makes sense to me and I guess that's all that matters.

I'm certain it doesn't make sense to someone else but that's life.

Sheldon - thanks.

Tito, you and I know exactly what I am talking about.


Someone that speaks from experience and nothing else

Now I wonder what that meant in your selective sourcing of experience. Its all good though, since everyone does things different and you are simply opting to side with anyone that might do something unorthodox. Lets just see how well you know how to "follow".

Eddie

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie..how you doing. Or, dont confuse experience with age. The question always is the answer and the answer is always the question.

Sheldon

Fantastic, you?

Eddie

[Tito]

Well - let me say this...

I was never a subscriber of high temps for Discus. That the Amazon could sustain a constant 84 86 88 or better temp is IMO unfounded.

So why keep a so called Domestic Discus at these temps - beats the crap out of me. That a domestic fish could be different from it's wild counterpart well...that beats the crap out of me too.

I think I am misunderstood. It's not that I like everything unorthodox...

It's that I like to make sense - common sense - I like it simple like that - others like it another way say la vie. Every now and then I like to give a good praise to someone when I see them making some dang gong common sense.

No one here has claimed to be a marine biologist - so mostly we are just blowing farts. LOL

[Eddie]

Well - let me say this...

I was never a subscriber of high temps for Discus. That the Amazon could sustain a constant 84 86 88 or better temp is IMO unfounded.

So why keep a so called Domestic Discus at these temps - beats the crap out of me. That a domestic fish could be different from it's wild counterpart well...that beats the crap out of me too.

I think I am misunderstood. It's not that I like everything unorthodox...

It's that I like to make sense - common sense - I like it simple like that - others like it another way say la vie. Every now and then I like to give a good praise to someone when I see them making some dang gong common sense.

No one here has claimed to be a marine biologist - so mostly we are just blowing farts. LOL

So nobody else on the forum is using common sense.....thats interesting. Maybe one day we'll all come to our senses.

And we also have to be Marine Biologists to make sense. Interesting since discus are "Marine" fish...:confused:. That makes sense. ;)

Eddie

[Tito]

LOL

Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Eddie

So here are some sites mentioning Amazon River Temps:
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/geography/amazon.html
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Amazonia/Facts/basinfacts.cfm
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/amazon.htm
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/18722/Amazon-River/41687/Climate

Amazingly, I could not find many credible sites dealing with this subject. Many sites were vacationing sites which I believe have a good chance of being biased in anything they say that may attract vacationers. I could not find much in the way of scientific evidence. But according to some of those sites I cited - the sweet spot appears to be around 79 degrees.

Eddie - history has taught us that many people have followed mad men like Hitler and Jim Jones, but that didn't mean those people were right. It's not the numbers man - it's what makes sense.

[Eddie]

LOL

Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Eddie

So here are some sites mentioning Amazon River Temps:
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/geography/amazon.html
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/Amazonia/Facts/basinfacts.cfm
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/amazon.htm
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/18722/Amazon-River/41687/Climate

Amazingly, I could not find many credible sites dealing with this subject. Many sites were vacationing sites which I believe have a good chance of being biased in anything they say that may attract vacationers. I could not find much in the way of scientific evidence. But according to some of those sites I cited - the sweet spot appears to be around 79 degrees.

Eddie - history has taught us that many people have followed mad men like Hitler and Jim Jones, but that didn't mean those people were right. It's not the numbers man - it's what makes sense.

Great info Tito, I will definitely take it into consideration the next time I have wild discus in my tanks. I only mess with hybrid tank raised fish at the moment but good info anyways. ;)

Thanks for contributing!

Take care,

Eddie

[Ardan]

Do not use Prime or any other dechlor products

If you have chloramines, you must use "something" to deal with the "ammonia" that is left after getting rid of the chlorine through "aging".
this is either done with a chemical such as prime
or

by using a biofilter.

Leaving it untreated will harm the fish



These products tend to cause spikes in Ph up or down

from the specs on Prime, it does not affect ph. I have not experimented with this product, but would like to hear from those who do if it affects ph.
Have you used it Sheldon?

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

hth
Ardan

[pcsb23]

The matter of temperature is an interesting one, particularly regarding measured temperatures over a period of time.

Over a period of time from 1967 to 2004 there have been many temperature, as well as other parameters measured and recorded by the likes of Mayland, Geisler, Bleher and others. These are documented in Heiko's book (pages 505 through 508). Temperatures were taken at depths between 1.5 and 2.5 meters and where the fish were caught, i.e. where they were living. Fortunatley Heiko saw fiit to average these temperatures, to save others the trouble ;)

They make interesting reading:
Heckel : Ave 28.6 Celsius or 83.5f (max 31.7, min 25)
Greens: Ave 28.2C or 82.75f (max 31, min 24.6)
Blue/Brown: Ave 28.8 or 84f (max 32.4, min23.5)

So from the above aiming for temps between 28 and 29c or 82 to 84f seems to make sense, common or otherwise.;)

[Sheldon Goldstien]

If you have chloramines, you must use "something" to deal with the "ammonia" that is left after getting rid of the chlorine through "aging".
this is either done with a chemical such as prime
or

by using a biofilter.

Leaving it untreated will harm the fish




from the specs on Prime, it does not affect ph. I have not experimented with this product, but would like to hear from those who do if it affects ph.
Have you used it Sheldon?


hth
Ardan

Hi Ardan

I have well water so no need to use it. I have seen this and other alike products cause swings in Ph. I will post more about it and the possible reasons why later today. Got to take the Honey off the bees.

Thanks for steering the ship right

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

The matter of temperature is an interesting one, particularly regarding measured temperatures over a period of time.

Over a period of time from 1967 to 2004 there have been many temperature, as well as other parameters measured and recorded by the likes of Mayland, Geisler, Bleher and others. These are documented in Heiko's book (pages 505 through 508). Temperatures were taken at depths between 1.5 and 2.5 meters and where the fish were caught, i.e. where they were living. Fortunatley Heiko saw fiit to average these temperatures, to save others the trouble ;)

They make interesting reading:
Heckel : Ave 28.6 Celsius or 83.5f (max 31.7, min 25)
Greens: Ave 28.2C or 82.75f (max 31, min 24.6)
Blue/Brown: Ave 28.8 or 84f (max 32.4, min23.5)

So from the above aiming for temps between 28 and 29c or 82 to 84f seems to make sense, common or otherwise.;)

Thanks Paul..The more info we have the better conclusions we can come to.

Thanks again

Sheldon

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Let us not forget keeping discus is an art form as well as a science. Each keeper must use his or her mind and devotion to the outcome of their experience. Some will follow the books. Others will read the books and make adjustments. Of course there are the basics. The tried and true formulas of MASTER KEEPERS. We can not over look these either. But like farming you cant get two farmers to agree on anything ..laughing..I like 78/80. The books say warmer. My experience has shown me for me i am right. For you i may be wrong. Its simply the nature of the hobby.

Sheldon

[Ardan]

I went to South America and visited some tributaries and saw the fish in the wild. Took water temp, ph, etc. Have been tending discus for 35 years. no biggy


I would love to see the pics of your visits to South America and of your discus over the years.

Thanks:)
Ardan

[Sheldon Goldstien]

I would love to see the pics of your visits to South America and of your discus over the years.

Thanks:)
Ardan

If you go to this website..You can have a read all about the subject of chlorine etc..The Skeptical Aquarist..

I do not at this time have a scanner or computer linked camera. But when i get a chance i will have a friend come by and will take some shots for ya

Sheldon

[Tito]

The matter of temperature is an interesting one, particularly regarding measured temperatures over a period of time.

Over a period of time from 1967 to 2004 there have been many temperature, as well as other parameters measured and recorded by the likes of Mayland, Geisler, Bleher and others. These are documented in Heiko's book (pages 505 through 508). Temperatures were taken at depths between 1.5 and 2.5 meters and where the fish were caught, i.e. where they were living. Fortunatley Heiko saw fiit to average these temperatures, to save others the trouble ;)

They make interesting reading:
Heckel : Ave 28.6 Celsius or 83.5f (max 31.7, min 25)
Greens: Ave 28.2C or 82.75f (max 31, min 24.6)
Blue/Brown: Ave 28.8 or 84f (max 32.4, min23.5)

So from the above aiming for temps between 28 and 29c or 82 to 84f seems to make sense, common or otherwise.;)

Well Paul,

It just so happens that I have always thought of 82 degrees as being the sweet spot for my Discus. Thumbs up.

I never kept them anything higher then 82.

[clogwood]

Sheldon thanks for the information and definitly put pictures of your trip up.I have kept discus in a planted tank at 79 to 81 with no problems and tend to think that the high temps are overkill.
I also commend Sheldon for sticking to his point and being objective and trying to state his experience in an honest direct fashion. I would be interested in hearing from other people who have tried lower temps and there experiences. Can't understand the needless attacks though on other peoples opinions. Curious about some people on this thread from Jersey like me and where they find their discus.

[fishorama]

My understanding of chlorine & chloramines is that chlorine can be "off-gassed" by aging or using sodium (or potassum) thiosulfate but not the ammonia that results from the chloramine after the chlorine is neutrilized with it.

We used to age water or use Genesis (sodium thiosulfate), even sometimes top up with a little straight tap (gasp!). But after moving 8 years ago & running out of Genesis I switched to Prime after reading on fish forums about it. I think it has kept my new discus safe during a recent ammonia spike.

Sheldon, I looked at http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/chlorine.shtml & don't understand your take on the chloramines. Could you explain?

My husband's a chemist & has tried to explain the whole "water chemistry" issues when we get town water reports. During periods of high chlorination chloroacetic acid can form & we had some fish deaths that seemed to coincide with that. Prime doesn't treat it & carbon doesn't remove it very well. I guess we're SOL when it happens. There only so many things I'll worry about.

There are so many variables in this hobby, part of what makes it so frustrating at times. Add to that the many opinions & experiences of others from all over & over time, new equipment, etc, I try to stay open to different ideas, to a point;).

[H82LOS3]

Very interesting, thanks for the info

[Sheldon Goldstien]

My understanding of chlorine & chloramines is that chlorine can be "off-gassed" by aging or using sodium (or potassum) thiosulfate but not the ammonia that results from the chloramine after the chlorine is neutrilized with it.

We used to age water or use Genesis (sodium thiosulfate), even sometimes top up with a little straight tap (gasp!). But after moving 8 years ago & running out of Genesis I switched to Prime after reading on fish forums about it. I think it has kept my new discus safe during a recent ammonia spike.

Sheldon, I looked at http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/chlorine.shtml & don't understand your take on the chloramines. Could you explain?

My husband's a chemist & has tried to explain the whole "water chemistry" issues when we get town water reports. During periods of high chlorination chloroacetic acid can form & we had some fish deaths that seemed to coincide with that. Prime doesn't treat it & carbon doesn't remove it very well. I guess we're SOL when it happens. There only so many things I'll worry about.

There are so many variables in this hobby, part of what makes it so frustrating at times. Add to that the many opinions & experiences of others from all over & over time, new equipment, etc, I try to stay open to different ideas, to a point;).

Excellent. I have retracked the statement concerning Prime etc until i can better explain my thinking. Anyway we did get to see what is what with chlorine and chloroamines. Thanks again. You are correct. Many ideas some contradicting each other. I hope in the end of this thread we will have debugged many ideas and find a optimum balance for everyone.

Sheldon getting stung about a zillion times. But lots of HONEY

Sheldon

[tcyiu]

Very interesting thread.

With respect to natural Amazonian conditions and their relevance to domesticated hybrids, I argue that the fish we have in our tanks are NOT the same as that which is found in the wild. The ones we have have been selectively bred/in-bred for traits which may have compromised other traits necessary for survival.

While genetically, they may hold the same genes as the wilds, some of these genes have been suppressed/turned off - intentionally or as a by-product of our unnatural selection. Therefore our discus are NOT the same as wild fish. We cannot expect them to survive in the wild.

BUT I do agree that after a few generations of fish applied with the same natural selection pressures as the wild, some small fraction of fish may survive and these will revert back to the similar morphology as the wilds. The genes hold the potential of devolving to the ancestral form, but our fish in their current form are NOT wild discus.

Therefore what I am proposing is the parameters of their natural cousins' ecosystem habitat can inform us, but should NOT dictate what we must maintain in our aquariums. Our fish are different. Period.

Sorry for being longwinded.

Tim

[Sheldon Goldstien]

Very interesting thread.

With respect to natural Amazonian conditions and their relevance to domesticated hybrids, I argue that the fish we have in our tanks are NOT the same as that which is found in the wild. The ones we have have been selectively bred/in-bred for traits which may have compromised other traits necessary for survival.

While genetically, they may hold the same genes as the wilds, some of these genes have been suppressed/turned off - intentionally or as a by-product of our unnatural selection. Therefore our discus are NOT the same as wild fish. We cannot expect them to survive in the wild.

BUT I do agree that after a few generations of fish applied with the same natural selection pressures as the wild, some small fraction of fish may survive and these will revert back to the similar morphology as the wilds. The genes hold the potential of devolving to the ancestral form, but our fish in their current form are NOT wild discus.

Therefore what I am proposing is the parameters of their natural cousins' ecosystem habitat can inform us, but should NOT dictate what we must maintain in our aquariums. Our fish are different. Period.

Sorry for being longwinded.

Tim

Thanks Tim

Can you tell us how they are different?

Sheldon