Should I remove the gravel?

[mareshow]

alright so i'm raising some little ones (the smallest is 3.5") and was wondering, should i remove the gravel, plants and driftwood from my aquarium, in order to raise them better or should i just leave it? I should also mention that i do 75%-100% water changes every day. the tank is a 40 gal, and there is 5 discus in there. thanks for your opinions!

[joanr]

There are many schools of thought about this. BB tanks are easier to maintain and you can still have some plants and driftwood in the tank. Look at some of the pictures in the photo gallery of BB tanks w/decorations & plants. A few folks have built retaining walls into the tanks, and others just tie some Annubus (sp?) to the driftwood. I think in a community discus tank a few decorations are pleasing, but some folks think the fish become shy and hide behind the driftwood. The main thing about having gravel, sand or other substrata is that discus create a lot of mess with their food and excretions that left to seeping into the gravel can cause lots of problems down the road. JMHO

[ifixoldhouses]

from my exp if you wanna get real good at figuring out whats wrong with em and medicating them,then keep them in a gravel tank, I had 5 and now I have 2, I recently took everything out and painted the bottom and sides, and am still trying to get them to recuperate, I have one healthy stunted one, and a large brilliant blue with finrot, I also have 7 fry in another tank, but thats another story, save yourself some trouble and go BB imo.

[joanr]

Yep, sometimes we all learn the hard way. If I had known about the cons of having gravel with my first juvies I would have saved myself tons of money on meds and not to mention the stress and aggrevation. I had four starter discus and kept them in a 55 gal with all the trimmings, within 6 months I was noticing all sorts of symptoms, external & internal parasites and fungus infections, fin deteriation, the whole nine yards. Took out the gravel and some of the other decos and they recovered but not without some permanent fin damage.

[mmorris]

they recovered but not without some permanent fin damage.

This is off-topic - sorry Mareshow, but Joan, if the soft rays did not grow in well, you can trim around the damage and the fin will grow back in. The hard rays won't repair, but the soft rays will.

[Eddie]

Substrate bottom tanks are best left for show tanks IMO. Grow out your beauty's and then add the substrate back. ;) I'm no expert but thats what I'd do. ;)

Taake care Mare,

Eddie

[joanr]

That was suggested to me Martha, a long time ago when it happened, but I was too chicken-sh** to do it. Now who was it that actually took their fish out of the tank and sutured it after a lid collision? Al? I think.

Anyway, Eddie is right, if you must have deco, do it after you grow out the juvies and they are big and healthy. By then, you probably will opt for the BB with some plants option. You will see as they grow just how much they dirty up the tank.

[Eddie]

I have cut my fishes fins dozens of times. After reading Adrew Soh's first book about the bacteria nodules that would never go away unless you cut the fins, I cut the tails of several fish and all the tails grew back without the nodules. ;)

You can see on this fish, where I cut the tail and trailing edge of the soft dorsal. The fins were growing back so you can see a fin line but it eventually went away.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/album.php?albumid=50&pictureid=424


Take care,

Eddie

[mareshow]

hmm i was dreading doing it but you guys are right, the plecos will just have to survive on the logs, so it should be ok to keep the drift wood in and maybe some plants as well?

[Disgirl]

Attaching some plants like anubias or java fern or java moss to driftwood with some fishing line or thread is a great way to have a bb tank and the beauty of plants with no gravel! A breeze to keep clean too!
Barb :)

[joanr]

It's a better way to go for now, the plants and driftwood shouldn't make that much difference considering the amount of water you change each day. Which brings us to another matter. You are going to loose a big source of good bacteria when you remove the gravel. It would be wise to get some extra biological media cycled before you start shoveling just in case your existing media can't handle the load. Of course with 75% w/c change everyday, it wouldn't matter as much, but you should still have backup. A sponge filter would work well. You know you will be able to cut back a tad with the w/c when they are grown out? I'm not a big fan of that big of a w/c everyday for many reasons, but it's ok when you are growing them out. The plecos, well another story...You can tie plants that don't need to be potted to the wood, or you can put the plants that need plant substrate in small clay pots. Your good to go. Just rinse the driftwood off occasionally to get rid of yuky stuff.

[mareshow]

alright so i removed about 50% of the water, all the gravel as best i could and then the other 50% of the water, its my fishies first true 100% so they are all a bit shocked lol but i kinda like the look of this bare bottom stuff with just the driftwood looks good... as for pots just your regular everyday clay pots from the greenhouse or...? lol my plecos were really grumpy they litterally sat on the last bit of gravel, i had to shoo them off of it so i get scoop it out, oh and here the discus come... out of "hiding" lol

[Eddie]

alright so i removed about 50% of the water, all the gravel as best i could and then the other 50% of the water, its my fishies first true 100% so they are all a bit shocked lol but i kinda like the look of this bare bottom stuff with just the driftwood looks good... as for pots just your regular everyday clay pots from the greenhouse or...? lol my plecos were really grumpy they litterally sat on the last bit of gravel, i had to shoo them off of it so i get scoop it out, oh and here the discus come... out of "hiding" lol

You can get the last bit by siphoning it out. Yes, just clay pots, I prefer terracotta pots (the orange ones), but any will do.

Eddie

[mareshow]

i tried my siphon wasnt strong enough :( but its ok, kinda looks neat... messy but neat, i should also say i'm using a overhead aquaclear filter and an airstone, should i just switch to a sponge filter (i have one for 40 gallon) or should i use two sponge filters, or should i just leave the aqua clear?

marek

[Eddie]

i tried my siphon wasnt strong enough :( but its ok, kinda looks neat... messy but neat, i should also say i'm using a overhead aquaclear filter and an airstone, should i just switch to a sponge filter (i have one for 40 gallon) or should i use two sponge filters, or should i just leave the aqua clear?

marek

You can leave the the AC and add a sponge filter too.

Eddie

[mareshow]

alright i did that, now i just need them to GROW!

[joanr]

Wow, that was fast! They will grow, lots of clean water and good food does the trick! Are you aging your water or straight from the tap with conditioner? Aging or not really depends on your tap water quality, some folks don't need to do it, some do. Have fun with them and keep us posted!

[mareshow]

no i dont age, unfortunately i dont have the time nor the ability to age (no where to store aged water) so straight from the tap for me, although i do not drop the ph or anything... i use prime and that's about it

[DLock3d]

i tried my siphon wasnt strong enough :( but its ok, kinda looks neat... messy but neat, i should also say i'm using a overhead aquaclear filter and an airstone, should i just switch to a sponge filter (i have one for 40 gallon) or should i use two sponge filters, or should i just leave the aqua clear?

marek

Marek,

If you have just hose and remove the large cylinder at the end of your siphon the suction should be more than enough to pull the existing gravel out.

[mareshow]

i'll have to try that tomorrow during tomorrow's water change, hmmmm one discus went dark after this one, the one that was showing its stress bars... its fins are still erect though, so could it just be a huge change or...?

[TankWatcher]

I use a wide hose (like for your washing machine or grey water) when I want to suck out gravel.

HTH

[tcyiu]

i'll have to try that tomorrow during tomorrow's water change, hmmmm one discus went dark after this one, the one that was showing its stress bars... its fins are still erect though, so could it just be a huge change or...?

I think you missed the post about preserving your bio filtering capacity. The gravel holds a lot of bacteria. Now that you removed all the gravel at once, and have not had a chance to establish the biofiltering capacity somewhere else, you will experience new tank syndrome. My guess is this is why your fish are stressed.

At this point, continue to do daily large water changes. And add a small amount of salt to help ease the stress from the build up of nitrites.

Also, I understand that you do not have a place to age the water. Do you have chlorine or chloramine in your tap? If yes, it will harm the good bacteria before the prime has had a chance to work. Best to mix the water in a bucket first. If not, add Prime to your tanke BEFORE adding the water.

Tim

[Don Trinko]

I have gravel or sand in my discus tanks. It is more work and you have to vacumn the gravel regularly. mine is not the majority opinion but it can be done. Don T.

[mareshow]

I think you missed the post about preserving your bio filtering capacity. The gravel holds a lot of bacteria. Now that you removed all the gravel at once, and have not had a chance to establish the biofiltering capacity somewhere else, you will experience new tank syndrome. My guess is this is why your fish are stressed.

At this point, continue to do daily large water changes. And add a small amount of salt to help ease the stress from the build up of nitrites.

Also, I understand that you do not have a place to age the water. Do you have chlorine or chloramine in your tap? If yes, it will harm the good bacteria before the prime has had a chance to work. Best to mix the water in a bucket first. If not, add Prime to your tanke BEFORE adding the water.

Tim

i do add the Prime first, in one corner and then add all the water after that, i suppose i should use a bucket but that'd be alot of bucketing, is what i'm doing causing the fish to be exposed to the chlorine and choramines? also i have a biowheel should i be concerned at all about build up?

[Eddie]

First off Mare, do you even have chloramines in your water? You should check to see if you chlorine or chloramines. Either way, I have never had any problems using straight tap, just adding Prime first. Done it with Chlorine and done it with Chlormines, no ill effects from the fish. ;)

Eddie

[joanr]

You may have also kicked up a lot of yuk when you did a 50% water drop, then scooped gravel while the fish were still in the tank. I was going to tell you to empty your water into a large bucket, add your heater and airstone, net the discus out of the tank and put them in the large holding container until you had emptied the gravel, cleaned the bottom and refilled and conditioned the tank. But, you had already done the whole thing while I was eating dinner!! Sorry. Anyhow, some aquarium salt should help the stress. keep an eye on the stressed out one.

[mareshow]

OK thats good to hear about adding prime first, second yeah i thought about that when i was watching them tussle about in the murky water and In the good ol' City of Edmonton we here use both i believe, i heard this from my girlfriends father who is a local science teacher so i believe it and besides i wouldnt want to risk it even if they dont lol, they'll tell you whatever they think is right for that day here... i saw poop today looked normal but i'm not too sure, i'll still deworm when the food gets here. The BD is really skittish, today again he darted around for no apparent reason and then is back to normal, is it normal for discus to be really active and dart then swim normally?

[joanr]

Some darting is normal, especially if stressed, but you may have some external parasite that's irritating him. Keep an eye out, add the salt now, and let us know how he's doing the next few days.
Watch for any rubbing, or gills that are closing down. Flukes can cause those symptoms. What is your water temp?

[mareshow]

84F i dropped it because eddie said i probably should, i was just reading about salts, what type of salts should i be using and will it affect my plecos?

[tcyiu]

84F i dropped it because eddie said i probably should, i was just reading about salts, what type of salts should i be using and will it affect my plecos?

Well, based on what you're reporting, it seems that they were just a little stressed from all the hullabaloo. If they're calming down, then nix the salt. In other words, if they're recovering naturally, just keep doing what you're doing.

I wouldn't add salt just because someone one the internet (like me) said to do so. Only do it if there is a reason like helping fish deal with a nitrite spike, or help a sick fish recover.

Good luck.

Tim

[Eddie]

84F i dropped it because eddie said i probably should, i was just reading about salts, what type of salts should i be using and will it affect my plecos?

Hey there Mare, as with anything anybody ever posts, its always good to check that it is a reputable source. I am no expert, nor ever claimed to be but there are those who feel they are. ;) Or shall I say feel they need to just post to post.

Take care buddy,

Eddie

[mareshow]

alright well i added minimal amount of both types of salt just in case, and the plecos do not seemed to be bothered by it too much, i was reading all over the place that plecos cant take the salt which is unfortunate to say the least, but oh well. when i do the water change today i'm not going to add any more i dont think they need it, although i think i caught a little bit of finrot on the striped one which was interesting because normally when they have finrot they have their fins folded and he doesnt... at anyrate i think it should heal now, i'm treating it with melafix

[tcyiu]

alright well i added minimal amount of both types of salt just in case, ...

Did you add Epsom salt as well as regular salt? Was there bloat in the fish also?

If there is nothing wrong, I highly recommend that you do a couple of water change and get both salts out, especially the Epsom salt. Additives like salt (both kinds) and meds are not needed for preventative purposes. Only use them to treat specific issues.

For disease prevention, keeping water clean and stable is the best thing you can do for them.

Tim

[mareshow]

i did my daily waterchange but before i did it the fish were swimming around happily so i think they were just adjusting to the "new" tank, also as for the "finrot" its weird its on one of the dangling fins the bone is showing... i never noticed it before but now that i did i'm hoping the melafix will help heal that, if that fin even will heal... should i be using something else other than melafix?

[joanr]

Sounds like you got the gravel out before anymore damage would occur. Just keep doing your w/c's and I'll bet you'll see an improvement in all the fish. Melafix is a good tonic, I used it for my Cardinal Tetras and other small tropicals, but not for the discus. You'll have to wait for someone else to answer that for you.

[mmorris]

i did my daily waterchange but before i did it the fish were swimming around happily so i think they were just adjusting to the "new" tank, also as for the "finrot" its weird its on one of the dangling fins the bone is showing... i never noticed it before but now that i did i'm hoping the melafix will help heal that, if that fin even will heal... should i be using something else other than melafix?

Which fin is it? I doubt broken rays (or bones) will heal on their own. You might want to trim around it if it is the soft part of the fin. If it is one of the hard rays don't trim. Pectoral or tail? Trim away! Mexafix is, IMO, a waste of money. People swear by it though and I suspect that their fish would have recovered anyway without the Melafix.

[mareshow]

um i dont know my physiology on the fish, but its one of the first two fins that hang down in front of the anal fin

[Eddie]

um i dont know my physiology on the fish, but its one of the first two fins that hang down in front of the anal fin

Are you talking about the ventral (pelvic fins)?

http://www.discusnada.org/discus/anatomy.html

It should be fine, I have cut those fins off until the tips of the boney edge before and they grew back just fine. ;)

Eddie

[mareshow]

yeah the ventral fins! lol they are healing by themselves so i'm not going to bother cutting them, i catch him every once and awhile not all striped up too. that picture on that website was CRAZY Eddie pretty graphic and interesting at the same time, not too mention it looked like my BD