HITH??

[dielectric]

I've noticed one of my large turqs has HITH... over the course of a month or two it has progressed from the normal size sensor pores to odd shaped white craters. I've also noticed it starting on one of the smaller turqs who has lost his appetite lately. i've had the majority of these fish for a few years and havent really done anything different lately as far as maintainance.... i've read that its caused by poor water quaility and/or lack of nutrition rather than hex?
they have also been showing their bars for the past couple months.

could it be my fertilizing regime? I follow EI loosley
i add 1-2 tsp of kno3 every other day along with 1 tsp of k2so4. this keeps my nitrates between 10-20ppm. i add no kh2po4 because i struggle with high phosphates... 2 to 5ppm from meaty food and poop i presume.
1 tsp of csm+b on alternating days.
if i dose any leaner my plants suffer.
my co2 is pushed to the max causing a ph drop from 7.0 degassed to 6.1.. if i drop it to 6.0 my fish gasp.

i change 50 gallons every saturday or sunday (125g tank) with r/o. 2 grams of nacho3 and 1/4 tsp of gh booster per 5 gallons. i dropped this down from 5 grams nacho3 and 1tsp of gh booster per 5 gallons just last week in an attempt to find out what is bothering them by eliminating possibilities. i need a tds meter.

i mainly feed bloodworms and beefheart plus, frozen. ive tried pellets but they would rather starve. i also throw in an emerald entree every few days.

cant really change much more water, or more frequently. i store r/o in 5 gallon jugs. fill about 2 up a day. my tap water is softened. w/o softener the GH is in the high 20's.

advice?????

thanks,
damon

[Eddie]

I'd say its a combination of poor environmental conditions (water quality) and nutrient deficiency. Most of the time, this goes hand in hand as Discus absorb just as much nutrients from the water as from food. If they lack nutrients in water and food, that could be the culprit. I'd suggest a good pellet or flake food packed with vitamins or making your own vitamin supplemented mix, that would could also include natural vitamins from veggies. ;)

Eddie

[dielectric]

I'd say its a combination of poor environmental conditions (water quality) and nutrient deficiency. Most of the time, this goes hand in hand as Discus absorb just as much nutrients from the water as from food. If they lack nutrients in water and food, that could be the culprit. I'd suggest a good pellet or flake food packed with vitamins or making your own vitamin supplemented mix, that would could also include natural vitamins from veggies. ;)

Eddie

so are the high nitrates & phosphates bothering them? or the high TDS? at what point do nitrates & phosphates become an issue for them? 'i've been assured by "plant people" that nitrates and phosphates need to be off the charts to stress fish.
theyve turned their nose to pellets for weeks. its like who will give in first... always me. what pellet food would you suggest? or could you perhaps offer a recipe to make my own food?
should i be adding some sort of discus trace to my r/o? or does gh booster cover that (calcium, potassium, magnesium)?

[Eddie]

It may be the lack of trace minerals in your water and food. You may want to get with Chad (avionics 30) about what he adds back to his water to get it nutrient rich. Check out the food/nutrition section for good mix recipes.

Here is one of mine

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69130

Take care

Eddie

[poconogal]

Could also be a nutritional deficiency that's being caused by internal parasites robbing nutrients from the food the Discus eats. You did say you had one who's lost its appetite recently. I feed mine the Vitamin Plus flake from www.angelsplus.com which gives an extra boost, in addition to the other foods I feed them.

[rickztahone]

just a quick question, why the need for R/O? is your tap water not stable?

[dielectric]

just a quick question, why the need for R/O? is your tap water not stable?

my GH is in the high 20's before being softened by salt. the softerner makes my KH super high. all that salt isnt good for my plants.

our water if from a limestone aquafer. i grew tired of my glass being white from buildup. hence the softener & R/O

[Chad Hughes]

OK, I'll give a stab at this.

Your water is interesting. I can see why you want to soften it, but I would not add chemicals back to it for remineralization. I would definately get a TDS meter. Looking at Ph, GH and KH is tough when you are dealing with limestone water.

I would say that your water isn't so much of the issue, but could possibly be the CO2. CO2 and discus have to be carefully balanced. How is your CO2 dosed and controlled? I wouldn't push the CO2 saturation past 30 ppm. You state that with a 10 point shift in Ph, your fish gasp. That is a red flag to me that you are at the high end of possible 50 ppm CO2. What is the KH in your tank?

Your nitrates and Phospahtes would have to be through the roof to cause any issues. I would discontinue the use of potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate if you have high levels in the tank. I have a 125 as well and I only dose ferts once a week at water changes. The most I have ever dosed a tank was twice weekly. Less is always more. ;)

Your HITH issue is likely a nutrition deficiency. Stick with a good home made, vitamin fortified mix if you can. They beat anything out there on the market. Trust me. Eddie has a good one, as do I. You can see mine here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=71454).

Get back to me with your KH, GH, Nitrate, Phosphate and CO2 injection methods. I'm interested to know.

Hope that helps!

[dielectric]

OK, I'll give a stab at this.

Your water is interesting. I can see why you want to soften it, but I would not add chemicals back to it for remineralization. I would definately get a TDS meter. Looking at Ph, GH and KH is tough when you are dealing with limestone water.

I would say that your water isn't so much of the issue, but could possibly be the CO2. CO2 and discus have to be carefully balanced. How is your CO2 dosed and controlled? I wouldn't push the CO2 saturation past 30 ppm. You state that with a 10 point shift in Ph, your fish gasp. That is a red flag to me that you are at the high end of possible 50 ppm CO2. What is the KH in your tank?

Your nitrates and Phospahtes would have to be through the roof to cause any issues. I would discontinue the use of potassium nitrate and potassium phosphate if you have high levels in the tank. I have a 125 as well and I only dose ferts once a week at water changes. The most I have ever dosed a tank was twice weekly. Less is always more. ;)

Your HITH issue is likely a nutrition deficiency. Stick with a good home made, vitamin fortified mix if you can. They beat anything out there on the market. Trust me. Eddie has a good one, as do I. You can see mine here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=71454).

Get back to me with your KH, GH, Nitrate, Phosphate and CO2 injection methods. I'm interested to know.

Hope that helps!

my co2 is pressurized, external extra large pvc reactor, distributed via a spray bar running the length of the tank just above the substrate (substrate is turface/SMS). its on a ph controller. i keep pushing co2 because tom barr says push it to the max then back off 0.1 ph, in not so many words.... i dont have a drop checker and my plants do not pearl heavily unless it is cranked. about the time my tank turns into a champaigne glass from pearling, is when the discus start hoovering at the surface.

r/o has a dkh of 0 and dgh of 0-1.

i havent tested the kh of my tank in a long time and am somewhat suprised to see how much has built up. why isnt it being removed with wc's?
tank: 12 dkh
6dgh
phosphates 2 ppm
nitrates 5ppm.

my nitrates bottom out fast which is why i dose them so much, these are usually around 10ppm. in the past they have been as high as 30ppm and dropped down to under 10 in a few days.


i have high light around 400watts of t5HO. LOTS of wood....stumps. not too much algae. i battle with spells of brown diatoms.

i need a food that wont turn to mush and get lost in my plants.

[Eddie]

Just make sure it has a good binder, to hold it together. Add calcium citrate to your mix. ;)

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

my co2 is pressurized, external extra large pvc reactor, distributed via a spray bar running the length of the tank just above the substrate (substrate is turface/SMS). its on a ph controller. i keep pushing co2 because tom barr says push it to the max then back off 0.1 ph, in not so many words.... i dont have a drop checker and my plants do not pearl heavily unless it is cranked. about the time my tank turns into a champaigne glass from pearling, is when the discus start hoovering at the surface.

r/o has a dkh of 0 and dgh of 0-1.

i havent tested the kh of my tank in a long time and am somewhat suprised to see how much has built up. why isnt it being removed with wc's?
tank: 12 dkh
6dgh
phosphates 2 ppm
nitrates 5ppm.

my nitrates bottom out fast which is why i dose them so much, these are usually around 10ppm. in the past they have been as high as 30ppm and dropped down to under 10 in a few days.


i have high light around 400watts of t5HO. LOTS of wood....stumps. not too much algae. i battle with spells of brown diatoms.

i need a food that wont turn to mush and get lost in my plants.

Your CO2 is way too high. I understand the method that you are using very well, but it is not a method that you should employ with discus. Other fish, possibly, but I am not well versed in other fish.

Discus require large amounts of oxygen. If your tank has a Ph of 7 with a KH of 12 and you are gassing it down to 6.1, then your CO2 ppm is around 286 ppm. Entirely too high for discus. I'll bet your plants thrive though! ;)

I'm not entirely sure what your substrate is, but something in that tank is driving the KH up and forcing your CO2 to run constantly. Have you ever watch the controller to see how often it cycles off/on? How often are you having to refill your CO2 canister and how large is it? I'm just curious now.

Anyway, running CO2 that high stresses the discus and ultimately will cause some sort of negative effect. Is this the root of your problem? Don't know for sure. Is it a possible contributor? Yes.

All your other parameters look great for a planted tank. That KH is what I would deal with and get that CO2 in check.

Hope that helps!

[dielectric]

Your CO2 is way too high. I understand the method that you are using very well, but it is not a method that you should employ with discus. Other fish, possibly, but I am not well versed in other fish.

Discus require large amounts of oxygen. If your tank has a Ph of 7 with a KH of 12 and you are gassing it down to 6.1, then your CO2 ppm is around 286 ppm. Entirely too high for discus. I'll bet your plants thrive though! ;)

I'm not entirely sure what your substrate is, but something in that tank is driving the KH up and forcing your CO2 to run constantly. Have you ever watch the controller to see how often it cycles off/on? How often are you having to refill your CO2 canister and how large is it? I'm just curious now.

Anyway, running CO2 that high stresses the discus and ultimately will cause some sort of negative effect. Is this the root of your problem? Don't know for sure. Is it a possible contributor? Yes.

All your other parameters look great for a planted tank. That KH is what I would deal with and get that CO2 in check.

Hope that helps!

if you are going by the PH/KH chart, those are very inaccurate. Phosphates interfere with these readings, which i have a moderate level of.

my substrate specs are:

TYPICAL CHEMICAL ANALYSIS
component weight %
volatile free basis
SiO2....................................76.72
Al2O3..................................11.28
CaO......................................0.63
MgO.....................................2.04
Na2O....................................0.10
K21O....................................1.26
Fe2O2..................................6.51
MnO.....................................0.01
P2O5....................................0.11
TiO2....................................0.52
FeO....................................0.82
Loss on Ignition.................2.20
it has a very high CEC rate, that and its size make it great for aquatic plants. it does not give off KH. though when i first set this tank up it dropped my PH below what the meter could read. (4.something), i assume by sucking up what little KH there was.
i dont have any rocks for decorations that could be leeching KH. i plan on doing the next months worth of water changes with straight R/O to bring the KH & GH back down to 4 or lower.
i have a 20# tank. lasts me anywhere from 6 -8 months. it runs for a few hours after lights on, then typically is off all afternoon, then comes back on in the evening for a little bit. then at lights off it kicks on again because i run an air pump at night which degasses some.

[dielectric]

Just make sure it has a good binder, to hold it together. Add calcium citrate to your mix. ;)

Eddie

calcium citrate is a good binder? will this hold it together so it doesnt turn into a soupy mess at first nibble?

[Eddie]

calcium citrate is a good binder? will this hold it together so it doesnt turn into a soupy mess at first nibble?

No....calcium for added nutrients. A good binder is something like gelatin or agar agar. I use a ripened banana, extremely ripe (brown).

Eddie

[Chad Hughes]

if you are going by the PH/KH chart, those are very inaccurate. Phosphates interfere with these readings, which i have a moderate level of.

my substrate specs are:

TYPICAL CHEMICAL ANALYSIS
component weight %
volatile free basis
SiO2....................................76.72
Al2O3..................................11.28
CaO......................................0.63
MgO.....................................2.04
Na2O....................................0.10
K21O....................................1.26
Fe2O2..................................6.51
MnO.....................................0.01
P2O5....................................0.11
TiO2....................................0.52
FeO....................................0.82
Loss on Ignition.................2.20
it has a very high CEC rate, that and its size make it great for aquatic plants. it does not give off KH. though when i first set this tank up it dropped my PH below what the meter could read. (4.something), i assume by sucking up what little KH there was.
i dont have any rocks for decorations that could be leeching KH. i plan on doing the next months worth of water changes with straight R/O to bring the KH & GH back down to 4 or lower.
i have a 20# tank. lasts me anywhere from 6 -8 months. it runs for a few hours after lights on, then typically is off all afternoon, then comes back on in the evening for a little bit. then at lights off it kicks on again because i run an air pump at night which degasses some.

You have a really weird situation goin on there. A KH that high and your CO2 is almost never on? If your KH is that high your CO2 should be running just about non stop to get the Ph that low. I use a KH/PH calculator. Works great for me! I don't think I needed the soil analysis. It might have well been in Japanese. I use play sand. Perfect.

I wouldn't tinker too much with the water chemistry unless you just really like to make RO water or you are breeding. Just my opinion though.

Best wishes!

[dielectric]

ok so after doing a water change today, i noticed a huge, probably twice the body length, solid white, un-uniformly segmented poop coming from the non eater. this is what i dread.

he is starting to get that pinched look. but still harasses the smaller discus, but also lurks behind some stumps most of the day. this WAS a very aggressive discus and was almost relentless in his pursuit of the smaller guys, beating on them almost constantly. i have had him for atleast a year.

i have metro & paracide-D on hand what should i treat with? i can move to a QT tank, but its not bare bottom, its a soil tank. or i can dig one out of the garage and set it up.

[Eddie]

Does the pinched looked fish eat?

Eddie

[dielectric]

[QUOTE=Eddie;575765]Does the pinched looked fish eat?

Eddie[/QUOTE
i havent seen him eat in a week, maybe more.

[Eddie]

[QUOTE=Eddie;575765]Does the pinched looked fish eat?

Eddie[/QUOTE
i havent seen him eat in a week, maybe more.

Then I'd pull that fish, treat with metro first. Watch the others for symptoms. You can worm the fish after the metro treatment.

Eddie