Why Beef Heart?

[Sony2]

and not liver or any other part of the cow?
Can it be chicken heart? or something else?:confused:
regards

[nesser]

I know one reason is that beef hart is relitively cheap per pound,I pay $1 per lbs,I believe it to be lean full of protien and free of grissle.Couldn't compare it to another part but cost vs volume and the lack of grissle.

[Eddie]

You can use liver, porkhearts, chicken hearts, turkey hearts.

Aside from the cost factor, beefheart is relatively MUCH easier to clean then say....a small chickenheart. You need to ensure the removal of all the fatty tissue and veins.

Eddie

[rich815]

I bought some Beefheart mix in frozen cubes but my discus will not touch it. Is it imperative to get something like Beefheart to my discus? I have a combonation of 7 fish sizing from 3.5 to 5.5 inches in size. They currently eat FBW, NLS discus pellets, OmegaOne Super Color Flakes and frozen spirulina brine shrimp cubes. With that kind of mixed diet is Beef Heart necessary as well?

[seanyuki]

IMO beef heart is to pump up the discus growth when they are juveniles.

[poconoboss]

I bought some Beefheart mix in frozen cubes but my discus will not touch it. Is it imperative to get something like Beefheart to my discus? I have a combonation of 7 fish sizing from 3.5 to 5.5 inches in size. They currently eat FBW, NLS discus pellets, OmegaOne Super Color Flakes and frozen spirulina brine shrimp cubes. With that kind of mixed diet is Beef Heart necessary as well?


The purpose of the beef heart is for fast growth. Discus have a finite growth period and BH is used to maximize this.

[rich815]

So on the diet and food sources I'm giving without the beef heart they will likely not be all the big? Personally I'm not shooting for 8" dinner plates, but would hope they'd all grow to 6" at least and their color and patterns reach good potential.....

All 7 of mine were gotten from Kenny's Discus back in June/July of this year and ranging from 3-5" when purchased. They've all grown about 0.5" in that time I'd say and all look very active, alert, healthy and strong. Good color too and have lost their shyness. I guess I could try beefheart again if really necessary.....

[Chad Hughes]

So on the diet and food sources I'm giving without the beef heart they will likely not be all the big? Personally I'm not shooting for 8" dinner plates, but would hope they'd all grow to 6" at least and their color and patterns reach good potential.....

All 7 of mine were gotten from Kenny's Discus back in June/July of this year and ranging from 3-5" when purchased. They've all grown about 0.5" in that time I'd say and all look very active, alert, healthy and strong. Good color too and have lost their shyness. I guess I could try beefheart again if really necessary.....

1/2" in that amount of time isn't what I would call healthy growth, especially from Kenny's fish. Discus can "survive" and look healthy on just about any tropical fish food out there. Getting discus to thrive takes a bit more attention to diet and care. With a well rounded diet, you should have seen an inch or more from your 3" fish in a couple of months.

The nice thing about homemade beefheart is that you can achieve the "well rounded" part of the diet by augmenting the recipie with everything that they would need for superior growth. I would not advise purchasing frozen cubes of beefheart. It's full of water and weak IMO. If you don't wish to take on making your own beefheart, buy from a breeder or stick to your routine that you already have success with.

Best wishes!

[Chad Hughes]

and not liver or any other part of the cow?
Can it be chicken heart? or something else?:confused:
regards

From all of my reading and experience, the beef heart is large enough that you aren't picking through tiny parts of poultry to get a small amount of product. That's probably the simplest reason. I couldn't imagine trying to clean a chicken heart. UGH!

The heart is made of a muscle fiber that is very tender, low in fat and high in protein. It comes in large quatities, it's cheap and relatively easy to find.

Finally, discus love it.

If you follow some of the recipies here, you'll have great success.

Best wishes!

[MSD]

I bought some Beefheart mix in frozen cubes but my discus will not touch it. Is it imperative to get something like Beefheart to my discus? I have a combonation of 7 fish sizing from 3.5 to 5.5 inches in size. They currently eat FBW, NLS discus pellets, OmegaOne Super Color Flakes and frozen spirulina brine shrimp cubes. With that kind of mixed diet is Beef Heart necessary as well?

In a word, no. What you are feeding now will sustain them and give them growth. Breeders who need to feed a lot of fish need a cheap alternative that will promote growth, that means beefheart, and a lot of water changes. The average discus keeper will do extremely well on the diet you feed, and clean tank and water.

[Sony2]

Thanks a lot for all your replays:)

[zamboniMan]

You can also use ground beef if you're extra lazy like me ;).

[Tito]

I got all my Discus at two inches last February. They are all either just below five inches or just past it. Most say Discus will grow to the 14 month - so I expect some more growth. I did this solely on Flake food and Bhrine Shrimp. I'm glad I never had to go to elaborate lengths to grow Discus. If they reach six inches and I think they will - I will consider myself succesful in growing them out.

Since I'm not a commercial breeder and my rent does not get paid from the proceeds of selling fish - I see no reason for me to rush their growth. Nature has done a fantastics job thus far and I can't complaint.

I got my Discus from Discus Madness - though I don't think it matters at all where they came from as long as they are healthy fish.

[tcyiu]

Tito,
Good for you. Great attitude. I think that a lot of times, the more hard core hobbyist also tend to be the loudest. So new discus keepers who come here for the first time become daunted by the sheer amount of "gotta do this..." and "gotta do that" (I'm not saying you're new). Your post helps provide more evidence that there are more than one way to raise discus.

As long as your fish are healthy, and you're deriving enjoyment, it's a win-win situation.

Tim

[Tito]

Tito,
So new discus keepers who come here for the first time become daunted by the sheer amount of "gotta do this..." and "gotta do that" (I'm not saying you're new).
Tim

Because of this statement is why I even bother to post here. I really hate it when I think that someone who desires to keep Discus gets turn-off by people that make these kinds of statements.

So for all you folks that just want to keep the fish in your tank and not win a nobel peace prize - I'm here for you.

[snoopy65]

Because of this statement is why I even bother to post here. I really hate it when I think that someone who desires to keep Discus gets turn-off by people that make these kinds of statements.

So for all you folks that just want to keep the fish in your tank and not win a nobel peace prize - I'm here for you.


I guess I am a stubborn newbie discus owner. I am doing just about everything the experts say not to do. I got 2 1/2" juvies on 7-22-09. I put them in a 6' long 110 gal planted tank with rams, rummies, cories, bn plecos, and amano shrimp. I feed them a variety of commercial foods from Kensfish.com six times a day. No beefheart, hamburger, fish etc.....In the 3 months I have had them they have all grown from 2 1/2" to 3 3/4"- 4 1/2". I don't think that is bad for 3 months. I got them from Discus Hans, so the quality and health was beyond question. I do admit to frequent water changes, but as far as the bare bottom, beef heart, etc, unless you are a breeder or competitor and as long as they are growing and are healthy - it is not necessary.

[jrodriguez]

hello and good moring everyone.How long you think they live? Feeding then a good diet must help giving them hamburger will give them (DIATESIS) lol. Can a 6 year old discus still breed?

[seanyuki]

Most breeders have their pairs breed up to 3 to 4 years old.....when the females are too old and ovulation slows down plus less eggs....old males having less milt to fertilize the eggs....just my 2 cents



hello and good moring everyone.How long you think they live? Feeding then a good diet must help giving them hamburger will give them (DIATESIS) lol. Can a 6 year old discus still breed?

[jrodriguez]

thanks bud!

[scottthomas]

Tito,
We are certainly blessed that you "even bother to post here". I would suggest that you relax and enjoy your beautiful fish. It can be very soothing. I do agree that many take the hobby of raising disus more serious than others. Thats ok. All hobbies are like this. I have found great information on this forum for all levels of discus enthusiasts. I just read all of the posts here and they each offered their own logical answer to the question: "Why Beef Heart?". I see no statement that someone should "really hate or turns people off of discus" ???? Maybe I missed something or this is a continuation of another thread?

[Eddie]

The funniest part about this thread, is how it strayed from using other parts or other type of hearts, to whether or not beefheart is "REQUIRED".

Eddie

[seanyuki]

I have tried using beefhearts and porkhearts but unable to locate turkey hearts in the supermarket...maybe oneday I will try turkey hearts also for the mixtures.:)

[Jhhnn]

As a returnee to discus keeping after years of absence, I've blended what I knew from years ago with what I've learned recently, mostly from SD. One of the things that really seems to work is beefheart.

I didn't feed it back then, and my fish never grew to the size I wanted, the size of large wildcaught fish. I did a lot of things differently then, but the biggest difference today has been wrt heavier feeding and more water changes.

With Carol's beefheart recipe and Eddie's seafood mix recipe as their dietary staples, my fish continue to grow out really, really well. I feed other stuff for variety- frozen mysis, brine shrimp, blood worms. I suppose that Kenny's fish would have adapted to pellets and flakes if I'd been more stubborn, but I really didn't want to sacrifice growth for convenience, and I really don't have to sweat the small stuff wrt money. They want a gourmet diet, they get it.

It's OK by me for other people to deal with their fish as they see fit, provided they're not killing 'em with neglect. We all have different goals, and mine are to raise some very large fish. Beefheart and seafood mix fit into that entirely, even if it is a bit of bother to prepare.

I *do* have a life, I'm not slave to the fish, at all.

I'm actually becoming rather envious of Acroken's contest fish- they're magnificent, as well-conditioned as discus possibly could be. I just can't be home enough to support that feeding schedule, and doubt that I possess the level of devotion required to do that every day. But it shows me what's possible.

[joanr]

Back to Beefheart, I ordered some from Safeway, planning to prepare it ala "Carol's Beefheart" with the Salad Shooter. The SS won't arrive 'till next week, had to order it online. My question is can I have the butcher at Safeway take a pound of this stuff and finely grind it and just feed it that way or do I have to pull out veins/membrane or whatever first? I ordered three pounds to start but wanted to use some of it before the Salad Shooter gets here.

[jeff@zina.com]

You can also use ground beef if you're extra lazy like me ;).

The problem with ground beef is fat content. Beef heart, once cleaned, has almost no fat content. Beef fat isn't just bad for the fish (same as it's bad for you...) but it also fouls the water quickly.

Lean ground turkey or chicken might be a better choice for the protein component of the food. Though frankly, I've never tried it.

Jeff

[scottthomas]

I could be wrong but I think Hans uses a mix with ground beef-very lean I guess. Ive used it and the fish love it, doesnt cloud the water because its gone so fast!

[tcyiu]

The problem with ground beef is fat content. Beef heart, once cleaned, has almost no fat content. Beef fat isn't just bad for the fish (same as it's bad for you...)
Jeff

Check this out: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/125/12/3041

I had always heard and believed that fish cannot metabolize beef tallow (fat) which is why we feed beefheart instead of ground beef. But the article above seems to indicate that beef tallow is not an issue for Red Drums which are a marine fish. I wonder if the same can be said for discus??

Tim

[Eddie]

Hey there Tim, I guess if the digestive systems are similar, might be a possibility.

I know there have been certain studies done with discus but I'll have to do some searching through the forum.

Eddie

[jeff@zina.com]

Check this out: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/125/12/3041

I had always heard and believed that fish cannot metabolize beef tallow (fat) which is why we feed beefheart instead of ground beef. But the article above seems to indicate that beef tallow is not an issue for Red Drums which are a marine fish. I wonder if the same can be said for discus??

I'm not sure if the same is for Discus but I do know that fat content is tolerated better/worse by different species. I didn't think Cichlids did well with higher fat contents. That doesn't really determine whether or not they can metabolize beef tallow though, just the tolerance to fats in general.

I don't know that beef fat is the issue or the ratios of fats to proteins. My assumption has always been the latter, but it also depends on the fish and their normal diet. Cichlids in general usually have a higher protein diet, where other fish might have a higher content of vegetable matter. There are also ways to bind fats in the food mix, the pure beef heart mix described here wouldn't be using any binders so the fats would be more likely to foul the water.

Jeff

[tcyiu]

Hey there Tim, I guess if the digestive systems are similar, might be a possibility.

I know there have been certain studies done with discus but I'll have to do some searching through the forum.

Eddie

I guess that is the key .. are they similar enough. It'd be great i fyou would post links when you find the studies. I am really curious since finding BH was so troublesome.


That doesn't really determine whether or not they can metabolize beef tallow though, just the tolerance to fats in general.

I guess what surprised me the most about this paper was that the abstract seems to indicate that they were intentionally fattening up the Red Drums with various fats. So it seems to indicate that at least in some species, fat is actively metabolized, and that tallow was more effective than some other fats.

Man, I kind wish I took the path of marine biology.

Tim

[Jhhnn]

I am really curious since finding BH was so troublesome.


I had trouble figuring that out, myself, but it's really quite easy. I call the meat dept at my King Soopers (Krogers) to "special order" it. If I call before 1:00 PM, they have it for me the next day at 9:00 AM, any day of the week. I just ask for it at the meat counter, pay at the register. Piece 'O Cake.

Fish in general are obviously capable of metabolizing fats from their normal foods. It's an evolutionary survival factor, I'm sure. Fats are converted to sugars, providing energy. The study w/ Drum indicates that they can metabolize beef tallow- that being true wrt discus remains an open question.

[tcyiu]

I had trouble figuring that out, myself, but it's really quite easy. I call the meat dept at my King Soopers (Krogers) to "special order" it. If I call before 1:00 PM, they have it for me the next day at 9:00 AM, any day of the week. I just ask for it at the meat counter, pay at the register. Piece 'O Cake.

Fish in general are obviously capable of metabolizing fats from their normal foods. It's an evolutionary survival factor, I'm sure. Fats are converted to sugars, providing energy. The study w/ Drum indicates that they can metabolize beef tallow- that being true wrt discus remains an open question.

After calling many many establishments, I found that I can special order at the supermarket 2 minutes away from my house. The problem remained that the special order took a week and several phone calls.

I agree that fish do metabolize fats. It's just that there are different types of fat which is why fish oil is good for us and butter/tallow is not. You're right. It boils down to whether discus can process it. And if they cannot, what happens.

I am reminded that in the case of humans, Olestra causes, um ... shall we say inconvenient problems. LOL

And also, when humans/mammals cannot digest something, gases develop in the intestinal tract and are expelled causing global warming. JK

I wonder what the effects are on discus if indeed tallow is not metabolized.

Tim

[scottthomas]

All I know is that I have used beefheart for several years and grown some healthy, big discus. IME the juvies that were fed bh grew faster and to larger adult size than those not fed bh. I also feed couple of flakes, pellets, Brne shrimp, blood worms. So far, nothing has fattened em up like bH. However, I have yet to make a seafood mix as my main food. Might have to try Eddies mix soon. For me BH is great because it grows big fish fast and it is less expensive to feed my many mouths that flakes and other store bought prepared fish foods. I have a friend that also feeds it to his rainbow fish and rams with good results