WOW Wilds - Why Don't We?

[ashaysathe]

To look for something different, I was doing some web searching and came across a wild caught fish exporter. Many of the fish that I saw on his website are purely amazing. The size, the color, the shape - fantastic.

This exporter is in Brazil and after asking a few folks he truely is a good collector of fish. He exports to UK and I have seen them on sale on Simply anologous community, headed by friend Paul, BIDKA.

Not trying to beat the dead horse or trying to challenge the demand based industry, fact remains fish are exceptional and its something that we in US never get to see, atleast I have not seen. It kind of ties back to the thread Al started on wild discus about price hobbyist here in US willing to pay vs. what they Asian markets value them at.

Look here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67388

We have a lot of European friends here, we have Eddie in Japan - what do you guys see or have access to?

For hobbyist here in US - where do u get your wild fish?

For the "wanna be breeding" hobbyists like myself, did you'll ever explore on possibilities of say crossing the reds shown in the photo below to RGDs or Blue shown here to Altum Flora. By saying this, I may be restarting the cycle where all these strains originated in the first place, but I do believe that we have lost something in the interim while creating the beautiful strains we now see.

Commercial aspects kept aside - I feel this will be fun. Forget breeding - but as a WOW factor - wouldn't it be nice to have a tank with these kind of fish and show that mother nature produces more stunning fish than we can imagine

Note: Fish in the photo are not mine. They are taken from Brazilian exporter's website.

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

I totally hear you on this one. I have seen this guys wilds before on youtube and on that website. truly some AMAZING wilds. some so beautiful they look like a created strain...just jaw dropping wilds. also if you search around youtube, youll see the Japanese get the most amazing wilds I have seen. I wonder what they pay!?! lol.

cool topic, if you find anymore pics of some jawdropping wilds like the ones above, you should post them up! ;)

[William Palumbo]

I would trade ALL my Domestics, for a handful of those wilds!...I really wish I was in a position to hunt down and aquire wild fish of that caliber. I too, have drooled over his YOUTUBE vids...Bill

[Moon]

Oliver Lucanis (based in Montreal) brings in some really nice wilds. He does not bother to advertise those here because people will not pay that kind of money. He sells really nice looking wilds for thousands to Japan.
It's quite simple. We are not prepared to spend extra big bucks on exceptional WC discus.
I have a good collection of wilds that I am trying to breed. I paid on average $80 to $100 for each of them. That's about my limit per fish. Mine are quite nice but not exceptional fish.
Joe

[ikevi]

Honestly wilds like the first and third aren't too hard to find. You just need to give them time and feed them foods that will bring out the red. As for the middle one... Well that is a fish that wasn't sent to the US. And if they do people like me who sneak/visit early into places like Ken Davis get them first before they are even done with quarantine.

[hedut]

love that discus, or may someone can bring smaller size like this:D:D

[Discus-Hans]

Got some wild in, still in Q. but start to eat from the mix already, I like them so much, maybe won't sell them lol lol

Olinda, Purus and Heckel.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4117.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4120.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4121.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4125.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4129.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4131.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4132.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4133.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4135.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4140.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4144.jpg

Hans

[vss]

I'm also confused why in the U.S there is nobody importing high quality wild. We're closer to the south America, but we're always drooling on the pictures of those nice wilds that our Japanese,European and Taiwan friends get...Now even in mainland China, there're people importing very high quality wild discus, and they sell very well. It's true that good wild fish are expensive, might costs a few hundred to more than a thousand bucks for an eye-catching piece, but I thought there should still be many discus hobbyist who're willing to get some. there is demand, so why no supply? :confused:

-Xiaofei

[rickztahone]

I'm also confused why in the U.S there is nobody importing high quality wild. We're closer to the south America, but we're always drooling on the pictures of those nice wilds that our Japanese,European and Taiwan friends get...Now even in mainland China, there're people importing very high quality wild discus, and they sell very well. It's true that good wild fish are expensive, might costs a few hundred to more than a thousand bucks for an eye-catching piece, but I thought there should still be many discus hobbyist who're willing to get some. there is demand, so why no supply? :confused:

-Xiaofei

i think there is a supply but the demand for high range WC discus is not there, at least in the US IMHO.

those discus are truly incredible and it boggles the mind how beautiful the creatures are in nature

[erikc]

In europe here is some of the fish we have access to :

http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Diskuswildf%E4nge/INDEX.htm

http://www.guarani-discus.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5

The Guarani discus link is to a shop that recieves WC's from H&K (Brazilian importer), who actually exports fish that are also caught by Heiko Bleher (I really need more room for some fish tanks).

http://www.amazon-fisch.de/

http://www.diskus-special.de/

http://www.diskus-special.de/

There are more places but I posted links (hope they work) to places I would either buy from or have bought from.

P.S. Hans, those are some nice WC's there you have. Looks like you are taking the plunge intio the darker side of discus keeping :D

[Eddie]

Hey there Ashay, I hear ya. Here in Okinawa there are not too many wilds avail and the ones that are, are pretty steep in their price. The real deal is on mainland Japan. They have some UNREAL wild discus available and the prices are the same, UNREAL. The company I picked up my Albino Pair from actually imports some amazing quality wilds and the owner is a young guy who breeds mainly wild discus. I think eventually, I might get some juveniles from him but that will be a long time from now. This guy carries and breeds some original Schmidt Focke lines.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/shopbrand/085/O/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJapan%2BDiscus%2BLaboratory%26hl%3Den&rurl=translate.google.com


Take care,

Eddie

[ashaysathe]

Oliver Lucanis (based in Montreal) brings in some really nice wilds. He does not bother to advertise those here because people will not pay that kind of money. He sells really nice looking wilds for thousands to Japan.
It's quite simple. We are not prepared to spend extra big bucks on exceptional WC discus.
I have a good collection of wilds that I am trying to breed. I paid on average $80 to $100 for each of them. That's about my limit per fish. Mine are quite nice but not exceptional fish.
Joe

Thanks Joe for the input. I will do some googling around and check.


Honestly wilds like the first and third aren't too hard to find. You just need to give them time and feed them foods that will bring out the red. As for the middle one... Well that is a fish that wasn't sent to the US. And if they do people like me who sneak/visit early into places like Ken Davis get them first before they are even done with quarantine.

In complete agreement, that the quality of fish shown in middle picture may or may not be found in abundance, but what intrigues me is as many hobbyist as we have here how come there not one that has it. I cannot believe that folks in US are not willing to pay the money.


love that discus, or may someone can bring smaller size like this:D:D

I would too if someone (or may be us) can get it from H&K in Brazil. Possibilities can be explored.

[ashaysathe]

Got some wild in, still in Q. but start to eat from the mix already, I like them so much, maybe won't sell them lol lol

Olinda, Purus and Heckel.

Hans

Thats excellent Hans. The uniform golden brown color is what appeals me here. I never knew you had wilds. These fish are excellent. And to me, whatever the price may be, a good fish is a good fish does not matter wild or domestic. That may very well be thoughts of someone been in the hobby for sometime (not lot of time). Great quality fish.
If I remember correctly, you at some point also were looking to import some high price wilds and check if there was interest around.

[ashaysathe]

I'm also confused why in the U.S there is nobody importing high quality wild. We're closer to the south America, but we're always drooling on the pictures of those nice wilds that our Japanese,European and Taiwan friends get...Now even in mainland China, there're people importing very high quality wild discus, and they sell very well. It's true that good wild fish are expensive, might costs a few hundred to more than a thousand bucks for an eye-catching piece, but I thought there should still be many discus hobbyist who're willing to get some. there is demand, so why no supply? :confused:

-Xiaofei

Thank you. Exactly my point.


i think there is a supply but the demand for high range WC discus is not there, at least in the US IMHO.

those discus are truly incredible and it boggles the mind how beautiful the creatures are in nature

I guess demand and supply go hand in hand. There was no demand for Albino RGD too. We created the deman. Somebody created the strain. May have even trashed a ton to reach to the quality today and when we started to get them and saw how nice they are, we started paying the price.

[ashaysathe]

In europe here is some of the fish we have access to :

http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Diskuswildf%E4nge/INDEX.htm

http://www.guarani-discus.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5

The Guarani discus link is to a shop that recieves WC's from H&K (Brazilian importer), who actually exports fish that are also caught by Heiko Bleher (I really need more room for some fish tanks).

http://www.amazon-fisch.de/

http://www.diskus-special.de/

http://www.diskus-special.de/

There are more places but I posted links (hope they work) to places I would either buy from or have bought from.

P.S. Hans, those are some nice WC's there you have. Looks like you are taking the plunge intio the darker side of discus keeping :D

Thanks for the links. H&K is what I was looking at as well.

[ashaysathe]

Hey there Ashay, I hear ya. Here in Okinawa there are not too many wilds avail and the ones that are, are pretty steep in their price. The real deal is on mainland Japan. They have some UNREAL wild discus available and the prices are the same, UNREAL. The company I picked up my Albino Pair from actually imports some amazing quality wilds and the owner is a young guy who breeds mainly wild discus. I think eventually, I might get some juveniles from him but that will be a long time from now. This guy carries and breeds some original Schmidt Focke lines.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/shopbrand/085/O/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DJapan%2BDiscus%2BLaboratory%26hl%3Den&rurl=translate.google.com


Take care,

Eddie


Thanks as always Eddie. Have you seen people waiting to get wilds from the shops you mentioned?

Don't get me wrong friends, I am not trying to create a fire here and its not that I am out there ready to buy 100 wild fish.

I just am intrigued. I hope its within the limits of the hobby

[Discus-Hans]

USA + wild = we want, we want, we want.

If you have them = not now, not now, not now.

lol lol lol

Hans

[MarkPulawski]

The guy I got mine from had some very nice wild fish but @ $150 each most sat for quite a long time. I ended up getting 3 for $100 each as 2 were small and 1 had damage to its dorsal fin, my other 4 were $150. Really nice fish at a few times that price I just don't see moving here in the US, though I am sure right place in front of the right person, yes.
Rarely do you see F1 offspring being offered, I would think paying a lot for an amazing wild pair (or a few to get a pair) would pay off if there was a demand for their babies, any comments about F1 offspring being sold?

[ashaysathe]

The guy I got mine from had some very nice wild fish but @ $150 each most sat for quite a long time. I ended up getting 3 for $100 each as 2 were small and 1 had damage to its dorsal fin, my other 4 were $150. Really nice fish at a few times that price I just don't see moving here in the US, though I am sure right place in front of the right person, yes.
Rarely do you see F1 offspring being offered, I would think paying a lot for an amazing wild pair (or a few to get a pair) would pay off if there was a demand for their babies, any comments about F1 offspring being sold?

Where did u get your wilds from?

I know of 3 so far has wilds:
1. Al - brewmaster15 (dunno if they are for sale).
2. Hans.
3. Moon (Joe) mentioned a gentleman in Montreal.

[brewmaster15]

I'm also confused why in the U.S there is nobody importing high quality wild. We're closer to the south America, but we're always drooling on the pictures of those nice wilds that our Japanese,European and Taiwan friends get...Now even in mainland China, there're people importing very high quality wild discus, and they sell very well. It's true that good wild fish are expensive, might costs a few hundred to more than a thousand bucks for an eye-catching piece, but I thought there should still be many discus hobbyist who're willing to get some. there is demand, so why no supply? :confused:

-Xiaofei

There really isn't a demand sufficient to warrant it which is why there aren't sellers of high end wilds... People always talk about wanting quality wilds etc...but those that actually buy them in the USA constitute a small fraction of the discus hobbyists here...Its not worth it for a seller to take the chance on bringing in High end wilds for the handful of hobbyists here that will pay for them... Just take a look around this forum at what kinds of discus most have...and even there...look at the prices... Its hard to sell good quality wilds in good economic times...but with things as they are today? not likely, IMO.

For those that really want those show piece wilds.... They are availible in the USA....provided you want to pay to have them shipped in to you at a Fish and Wildlife manned international airport....Anyone can import them or any discus for that matter....The USDA fees are not bad for personal use imports.....just contact someone like Those sellers on U-tube... I'd be interested to see what is sent to you and what it costs...

Good luck,
al

[pcsb23]

Possibly one way to get some decent wilds in is to group together and get money up front, then place an order with someone like Hudson. I'm sure if you twisted his arm, Al would help ;)

Having looked at the wilds Hans has, I have to say they look pretty good to me, so maybe there is your start point. Part of the "trick" here is to build a relationship with the suppliers, ime most want to provide what you want to buy, but both sides have to be realistic. It isn't easy !

I'm fortunate as I have a dealer 20 mins away, Paul Lucas, that gets Hudson fish in, and I can drive to Belgium and back in a day where Eric Hustinx has his place, and he definitely has some top notch fish. Also I think the prices over here are a lttle more reasonable as in we seem to get decent quality, but we do pay a little more (but not massively so).

After the show is over I may well get some more wilds, just not made my mind up yet if I want blues, greens or heckels (or all of them ;)).

[ashaysathe]

For those that really want those show piece wilds.... They are availible in the USA....provided you want to pay to have them shipped in to you at a Fish and Wildlife manned international airport....Anyone can import them or any discus for that matter....The USDA fees are not bad for personal use imports.....just contact someone like Those sellers on U-tube... I'd be interested to see what is sent to you and what it costs...

Good luck,
al

As I understand, shipping and FWS is not the issue. The constraint is striking a balance between the number of fish from the exporter for the shipping to make sense. You know what I mean - U have been there and even done lot more.

[Eddie]

Thanks as always Eddie. Have you seen people waiting to get wilds from the shops you mentioned?

Don't get me wrong friends, I am not trying to create a fire here and its not that I am out there ready to buy 100 wild fish.

I just am intrigued. I hope its within the limits of the hobby

Hey there Ashay, not really waiting to get wilds in the shops, more like waiting until they have enough money! Most of the quality wild fish are advertised at anywhere from >500 dollars up to about 2500 for one fish. Now I dont know who is getting those beauty's but somebody is. :o

Occasionally I'll see a nice wild fish here on Okinawa that runs about 300 or 400 dollars and it will end up sitting there in the shop for months and either it gets moved or it dies. Its too bad though, cause some of them are STUNNERS. I guess thats the sad story of the LFS though. :(

Take care,

Eddie

[ashaysathe]

$2500 a fish.. WOW..

Indeed its cost driven no doubt as Al, Hans and other friends were pointing out. But so far cost is the only factor I have heard.
I have not seen anyone comment on say I would buy, for e.g., Albino Red Turk instead of a Solid Red Alenquer. I thought that would be an intresting prespective.
Like me, when I visited Al for the first time - I was attached to color and wondered why would anyone buy "brown fish". Today when I go to Al's place I am stunned by his collection. Its amazing. I guess its the learning curve of the hobby.
Have not heard any of this from our friends. All said wilds are costly.

That may be purely -

1. Why would I buy a "brown" fish like a thought.
2. Instead I will buy an Albino Red Turk kind of thought

Nothing right or wrong - its just a perspective.

[Eddie]

Oh trust me Ashay, I'd take a collection of wilds ANY DAY!!! ;)

Eddie

[vss]

There really isn't a demand sufficient to warrant it which is why there aren't sellers of high end wilds... People always talk about wanting quality wilds etc...but those that actually buy them in the USA constitute a small fraction of the discus hobbyists here...Its not worth it for a seller to take the chance on bringing in High end wilds for the handful of hobbyists here that will pay for them... Just take a look around this forum at what kinds of discus most have...and even there...look at the prices... Its hard to sell good quality wilds in good economic times...but with things as they are today? not likely, IMO.

For those that really want those show piece wilds.... They are availible in the USA....provided you want to pay to have them shipped in to you at a Fish and Wildlife manned international airport....Anyone can import them or any discus for that matter....The USDA fees are not bad for personal use imports.....just contact someone like Those sellers on U-tube... I'd be interested to see what is sent to you and what it costs...

Good luck,
al


Thanks Al. I see the real scenario now.:o

Actually I'm not a wild fan at all. For most of the wild discus I've seen, I don't know how to appreciate their beauty. For those wilds that I thought are nice, their prices are absolutely unaffordable for me. I just heard some discus hobbyist friends complaining about no where to buy better wilds, but the sample size is small, and it might not be the case across the country. Anyways, I'm pretty happy with whatever I can get right now in the U.S. I definitely prefer domestics over the wilds.

-Xiaofei

[kirkp]

Hey Mark, I for one think that there would be a market for wild offspring. I know of someone in Chicago that has some F1 blues but he won't ship :)

Kirk

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

Got some wild in, still in Q. but start to eat from the mix already, I like them so much, maybe won't sell them lol lol

Olinda, Purus and Heckel.


http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll62/Hans-Discus/Wild%202/100_4131.jpg


Hans

Thats one hell of a fish IMO! very very nice wilds Hans.

take care.

[NanDiscus]

I bought my wild Xingús in Germany. The place had a very wide range of fish available and the price tags were between 50 and 400 Euros (~75-600USD) a piece. They were all rather nice fish, but my friend, who came along with me looking for p.r.o.p.e.r. Alenquer Reds was a little disappointed. When he mentioned it to the owner of the place he was told, that it is almost hopeless to get the nicest ones in, as many of them are snagged right after the capture and taken home by the Asians.
I think though, that it can be a good option for many to buy F1's instead of fish coming straight from the source. Here's an example of some fish my mate bred, who is a hobby-breeder, who only breeds fish when he finds the ones he really wants to breed.:
http://kovacsdiszkosz.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/2009-julius/

Nandi

[Discus-Hans]

Hi Nandi,

that's correct for a part, point is with a lot of shippers from Brazil etc. if they ship them to USA, Europe, etc. they have to fight, talk, real and deal to get some money for their Discus. If they have say a 400 Discus, make a call to Asia and say okay I've 100 of that price, 100 of this $$ etc. they just say okay bag them up send them Monday (or what ever)

I just posted here some nice Discus for $100 each (what for the Olinda's is a steal) I had at least 5 calls/emails: If I buy 2 can I get them for $75.00 each?
You know, you try to bring in some nice wilds (what's not easy/cheap these days) and you've to deal with those kind of things, even I'm thinking of giving up on them.
We do great with our Stendkers and don't need the extra work.

I saw on the link: Felhasználó: discushans. Kijelentkezés »

Wonder what it means, saw no picture or something,

Hans

[NanDiscus]

Hi Hans,

Well, there is a reasonble amount of truth and good sense in what you say there. I wonder why people are not willing to pay more for those wilds in the US? If you had those Olindas in Lelystad, I'd now be revving the Honda to 7500 in 6th going your way. (After talking the better half into yet another tank.) ;)

There is now one guy here, who imports the odd fish directly from Brasil (no idea about the source) and his asking prices are relatively low, but the quality is nowhere near to what you can see if you drive to almost anyone in Germany for instance. Some Tefés, browns of some sorts and the odd Rio Negro Heckels are available, but that's it. And there's almost no market, so a shipment of maybe 60-80 fish lasts for a year. But at least they last and not go wasted.
So if you want some reasonable wild fish (and the exact same applies to domestics), you have to get into the car and drive across half of 'Yerp' to be able to get what you want. Exactly like 13 years ago, when I first went to visit you. Not much progress made here since then... :(

I attach two pics from my friend's albums, just to show what sort of fish he plays around with (not exclusively).

Nandi

[NanDiscus]

I try to post the link again for you to cut and paste to the browser.:

kovacsdiszkosz.wordpress.com/page/1/

N./

ps.: As you scroll to the bottom there's a link saying 'Older posts', you can go back 5 or 6 pages. No need to open other links, all images are loaded on the main page otherwise.

[ashaysathe]

Price negotiation is a hard reality in any industry: technology - software, ferrari's, clothing (that why they have deals) and fish is no different.
But besides that, I feel that there has been some amount of cost/price politics (for lack of a better term) somewhere - meaning at some point somebody somewhere started dumping a large quantity of cheap fish (quaility and price) killing the market. Partly, that there is no market because people have not seen a high quality wild discus - what it is and what it looks like and have no access to it e.g. Jatapu Royal Blue, Cuipuea, Solid Nhamunda Blue Heckel. If you see around here people buy $200 fish. They need color and if we show a Jatapu Royal Blue with its potential I am sure there will be atleast 5 people who would it. It may not be everyday but every month - sure.
Some where the link is broken demand, supply, somewhere.

Awesome fish Nandi and nice setup. Would love to see your collection.

[Apistomaster]

Ken, fishfarm@mindspring.com sold me six of these at $40 each plus overnight shipping last March/April, '08. Nice red body color with some nicely blue striated others much less so. He called them Nhamunda Blues but Heiko Bleher calls them Alenquers. Both locations are known for red over toned body colors. Very reasonably priced nice wild Discus in my book.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/NhamundaBlueTank0014-1.jpg

[William Palumbo]

Hey Larry...sweet fish! and even a SWEETER price!. As much as I do like wilds, I am not willing to pay over $100 a piece for one. $60 is about my limit. Anything under that is great. There are plenty of nice wilds out there under the $100 mark...Bill

[NanDiscus]

You guys are simply too badly spoilt out there in the States. :)
Larry! The exact same fish would cost you around the 200-300USD mark if you were to buy them from a Western European importer. Really red ones even more.
for 40 bucks a piece I would call them free fish, that would even be a more than decent price to pay for them if you were to sell them on to other people.

Nandi

[Tito]

Folks it's simple. Americans love fish but we seem to have a limit. It's our economics. Those other countries have their own economics. What they value is not what we value.

Also - this is not exclusive to Discus.

I am a Tropheus keeper as well and I can tell you that the best Tropheus go to Europe.

Obviously - the average Joe in the USA is B R O K E compared to the average Joe in the old world.

Tough cookies I guess.

[ikevi]

Sorry Tito but that just isn't true. First the US per capita is almost 1.4 times Japan... so we have more money. And if you look percentages of citizens (or even numbers of millionaires) North America has by far the most. Especially with over 30 million dollars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millionaire#Number_of_millionaires_in_the_world

So in other words the US has the money, but it truly is that most fish buyers in the US would rather buy 10 good discus rather than 1 great one.

Honestly the only way I see the really good discus coming to the US and also being for sale if if someone decides to buy a bunch for there collect, but is willing to sell them if people are willing to pony up the money. I don't see someone like Hans being able to offload them so quickly such that he can order complete new shipments each month or more frequently like he does with the Stendker discus.

That said even I am one of those people that drools and the "great" wilds but I can't condone the cost to get them, I have a few higher priorities first. (Though I confess I do have some quite "good" ones, I will try to post some updated pictures soon.)

[William Palumbo]

Economics aside. There is not that big of a wild Discus market. I feel they are a bit more popular now than they were in the past, but that is usually amongst more advanced/dedicated hobbyists who have been into Discus for sometime. I too drool over those Wild Discus that never make it to our shores. Just as well I guess, because there has to be a limit when how much is too much? Maybe we in the U.S know that. We are either smart enough to NOT pay those prices for a FISH...or just too cheap. My small efforts in breeding Wild Discus, is that the fry rarely look as good as the adults. And a Wild pair that could cost upwards of a thousand dollars, that would throw mediocre fry at best, would never be financially effective. You would not be able to sell enough fry at the higher than average price to pay for the pair. Assuming breeding was your intention. I can only imagine how I would feel to lose a $1000+ fish...no wait...I can't...Bill

[TURBOFROG]

Love to get my hands on some wilds, so Bill let me know if you ever get any!

[William Palumbo]

Try Butch at Chicagoland Discus. If you can get ahold of him, the last time I spoke with him he had some nice Wilds for sale...Bill

[terps]

I think even in good economic times, wild discus were never popular. I asked a LFS owner why he didn't import wilds and he told me even though they are inexpensive to stock, nobody buys them. They like the fancy colored discus instead and he can get a lot more money for them.

[brewmaster15]

I'll share some of my perspective here...

If you want a tank full of those high end drop dead gorgeous wilds and can afford that kind of a display tank...moneys no option for you and there is always a way in the USA to buy what you want... If I had money...which I definetly don't... I would have tanks and tanks of those fish as I like them better than domestics...by a long shot.... The reality is..those fish are financially out of range of most people, and....not just here...but elsewhere in the world......Somewhere , somehow, an idea has taken hold that theres alot of these fish and we only need to order them.....the truth is there is not...The rivers are not swimming with what a discus hobbysist calls top grade AAA wilds....They are mostly average to below average fish...as in all wild populations of any fish....and thats why the best command a premium.

Now if you want wilds for breeding stock..as Bill alluded...the fruit can fall far from the tree with wild discus....Consider this though, which is where I think the real value lies.. its not what the wild fishes phenotype is thats valuable...Sorry if you think the looks matter, they don't always......its the genotype...what they carry as genes that really count. Look at the mass numbers of domestics out there.......these are the prodigy of common wilds...not fancy smancy ones...back then when the domestic programs began....to get a wild exported out, then healthy and bred was success in itself..Grade AAA whatever didn't exist for wilds.... so when you look at all the beautiful domestics...keep in mind that they hail from your average wilds in more cases than not. And that is their true value...not in what they look like...but in what they have the potential to be.

JMO,
al

[Eddie]

Makes alot of sense to me Al, for sure. Out in mainland Japan, they definitely don't carry tankfuls of spectacular wild caught discus, having all the same traits. Its a single fish with a very special shape, color, pattern etc. Its these one of a kind fish that run into the thousands of dollars.

Eddie

[ashaysathe]

their true value...not in what they look like...but in what they have the potential to be.

JMO,
al

This is an excellent excellent point Al. There is tremendous variance (in which ever way you want to look at it) in discus, as it appears in the wild -to what we have today as domestics.
But thinking of this, what you said - the value lies in the genotype to what they can give and not the instant phenotype. This makes sense.
This is exactly what I wanted to get out of this thread - Is cost a constraint - ABSOLUTELY - and it will always be.
Not that this is something I didn't know about but its more geared to the fact that the lack to pick the "potential to be in generations to come"

Excellent point Al.

[ashaysathe]

Makes alot of sense to me Al, for sure. Out in mainland Japan, they definitely don't carry tankfuls of spectacular wild caught discus, having all the same traits. Its a single fish with a very special shape, color, pattern etc. Its these one of a kind fish that run into the thousands of dollars.

Eddie


Exaclty - this is because its already in the tank of some renowned breeder and it will never make to the common market.
Let take an e.g. a true Royal Blue has thick continous straitions from nose to tail, with pattern on operculum and forehead and 2 things values the most no breakage in straition on the stomach and red eye - a Royal Blue like this can cost $2000 because again like Master Al said mother nature does not make these everyday. Now how many local buyers can buy that. Not me. But some champion breeders sees potential - again coming back to what Al said - what it can produce and sees a ton of shipments exported out of it inturn.

[Discus-Hans]

Funny, most people who post are talking about breeding as the main goal.
99% of the people who contact me about the wilds, just want a show tank with a few nice not too expensive wilds,

Hans

[brewmaster15]

Funny, most people who post are talking about breeding as the main goal.
99% of the people who contact me about the wilds, just want a show tank with a few nice not too expensive wilds,

Hans

Hans,
I think thats because breeding wilds is a feather in many of the more experienced Hobbyists hat.. and truthfully...how many hobbyists do you know of that are actually breeding domestics for that matter?....not many compared to those that actually keep domestics for show and enjoyment....so I am not surprised that those inquiring to you about wilds aren't looking to breed them....but I am sure that most would be thrilled if their wilds did breed.;):)
-al

[ikevi]

Funny, most people who post are talking about breeding as the main goal.
99% of the people who contact me about the wilds, just want a show tank with a few nice not too expensive wilds,

Hans


True heck even in my case, if a good pair forms I don't even know if I would take it out of my show tank to breed.

[William Palumbo]

I guess I am in the 1%, because showtanks do nothing for me. I get my enjoyment from trying to breed the wilds, and the more expensive...the harder I try!...Bill

[NanDiscus]

I think I should also consider myself as a canditate for membership in Club 1%, but on a completely different account.
It is true, that my aim is to breed the Xingús, but there are absolutely no financial reasons behind the idea. It was simply love at first sight with the Xingús many years ago and it is only a mere coincidence, that when I bought them, they happened to be the cheapest wild discus available.
And since they were so cheap (because nobody else wanted them) I had the chance to put my hands on I think the absolute cream of the type.

I quite liked Al's post on the genotype-phenotype matter for two reasons.:
For one, I simply agree with it as a theory, and for another, it also gives a perfect explanation of why <b>I</b> would like to breed these wilds. Luckily, I have the infrastructure at hand to grow up to about 100-150 F1 fish out to nearly full size at once and be able to select the absolute best of them. And maybe even find out what a real AAA+++ quality Golden Xingú looks like...

In five years' time I will update you all on my new plans. Until then I'm busy with Xingús. :)

Nandi

[brewmaster15]

Bill and Nandi... thats at least 3 of us in the 1%!:):):):)

-al

[Moon]

I don't have any show tanks. All ten of my discus tanks are utility set ups for grow out and breeding. So I suppose I am also in the 1% rank.
Joe

[William Palumbo]

Same here Moon. Mine are either grow-outs, or breeding tanks...Showtanks take up space and eat up electric...Bill

[Discus-Hans]

None of you are even in the 1%

If you read what I said: 99% of the people who contact me about the wilds

Hans

[brewmaster15]

None of you are even in the 1%

If you read what I said: 99% of the people who contact me about the wilds

Hans Hans, True...very true....

then again... maybe those that breed wilds or seek to are what? in the .005% of total discus hobbyists? We may have been a bit conservative in our 1% assessment;)

:):):)

[Discus-Hans]

Hans, True...very true....

then again... maybe those that breed wilds or seek to are what? in the .005% of total discus hobbyists? We may have been a bit conservative in our 1% assessment;)

:):):)

I think on the forum the %% will be much higher, maybe even up to 50% who buy to breed (or buy to try to breed, everybody wants to be Discus Hans :D)

Hans

[rwong2k]

Ken, fishfarm@mindspring.com sold me six of these at $40 each plus overnight shipping last March/April, '08. Nice red body color with some nicely blue striated others much less so. He called them Nhamunda Blues but Heiko Bleher calls them Alenquers. Both locations are known for red over toned body colors. Very reasonably priced nice wild Discus in my book.
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t41/apistomaster/NhamundaBlueTank0014-1.jpg

Wow great price on the wilds and nice looking ones,

There's only two sources for wilds in my area, one of them's April the other is a LFS

[Eddie]

Example for you Ashay, these are in Japanese Yen. All imported and this is the breeder that sold me my ARD. He breeds wilds primarily with his stock being a reasonable price. But these one of a kind wild caughts are way out of my price range for one fish.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/&ei=AfPsSqTeK5GasgOt3uj1Aw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dt-aquarium%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DUhQ

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/&ei=AfPsSqTeK5GasgOt3uj1Aw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dt-aquarium%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DUhQ

Here are his homebred domestic wilds, exceptional!

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/&ei=AfPsSqTeK5GasgOt3uj1Aw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dt-aquarium%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DUhQ

Eddie

[ashaysathe]

Example for you Ashay, these are in Japanese Yen. All imported and this is the breeder that sold me my ARD. He breeds wilds primarily with his stock being a reasonable price. But these one of a kind wild caughts are way out of my price range for one fish.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/&ei=AfPsSqTeK5GasgOt3uj1Aw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dt-aquarium%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DUhQ

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/&ei=AfPsSqTeK5GasgOt3uj1Aw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dt-aquarium%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DUhQ

Here are his homebred domestic wilds, exceptional!

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://t-aquarium.com/&ei=AfPsSqTeK5GasgOt3uj1Aw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBMQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dt-aquarium%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DUhQ

Eddie


Thanks Eddie.

I would surely belong to the the category that would want to breed discus. But I would want to pick and choose what I want to do. Space, time, efforts all at premium I would want to choose what I want to do.
Putting a pair together and working with it would be a great learning experience but when I get fry what do I do with it. So first step is to choose what I want to play with. I am getting a feeling its with something related to wild caught fish and may be a wild caught and domestic fish. Possibilities are unlimited just choosing a start point - thats all.

[NanDiscus]

Putting a pair together and working with it would be a great learning experience but when I get fry what do I do with it.

That is a very good point. You just made me think about what I am going to do with those 1 months old drab and plain Xingú F1's. (???)

Nandi

[Discus-Hans]

Eddie, is it me or??? I see in all 3 the same red what ever it is???

Hans

[Ed13]

Eddie, is it me or??? I see in all 3 the same red what ever it is???

Hans
Same here:confused:

[Eddie]

Eddie, is it me or??? I see in all 3 the same red what ever it is???

Hans


Same here:confused:

Sorry guys, not sure how come the links get screwed up with the whole google translation. :o

If you click on the left menus, the pages will open for what I thought I was linking to. The October 17th shipments are the wilds. ;) They are NICE!

Eddie

[Ed13]

Did as you said Eddie, but, perhaps I shouldn't have. This three fish right here have me drooling again about wilds. 6 fish of each and I'd be very happy;)

Oh never mind, link didn't work for me either, but they were under "Allen Carr Northen Chestnut pair The "red Pearl", the "Soriddoreddo" and the "ICA type"

[Eddie]

Did as you said Eddie, but, perhaps I shouldn't have this three fish right here have me drooling again about wilds. 6 fish of each and I'd be very happy;)

Oh never mind link didn't work for me either, but they were under "Allen Carr Northen Chestnut pair The "red Pearl", the "Soriddoreddo" and the "ICA type"

Yeah Ed, you just have to search around. He has alot wild caughts that are pretty nice. I really like his domestic bred reds, see small photo.

[kirkp]

Nice fish Eddie. 100,000 yen is about $1100.

[Discus-Hans]

If you see the prices, you understand why we don't get those Discus in the USA,

Hans

[Eddie]

Nice fish Eddie. 100,000 yen is about $1100.

Oh yeah Kirk, did you see the Allen Carr Inanu southern "Royal crepe" NO-5, its 150000 YEN or $1,666.38 at today's rate. Yeah.........thats about a months rent for me. :o

Eddie

[ashaysathe]

Cost is always a constraint and will remain to be.

I guess its for whom who realize a future potential in taking the fish and breeding with what one has for loads worth of export back to us.

I am not first hand aware of which breeders buys such a stock. I wouldn't want to throw names in here fearing what conclusions that get drawn but would be an interesting study.

As Al was saying - there could very well be hobbyists who buys these one of produce by mother nature and have them in their tank. Nothing wrong to have top of the wilds as show tank its choice of the beholder.

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

Eddie, some of those Japanese fish are SOOOO beautiful...mainly the wilds, but even all the domestics too! some of those wilds are really jaw dropping. ;)

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

check it, got these off the Japanese youtube.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4KywiaNLCM&feature=PlayList&p=C228DE699DF513C1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CY0HEk5ZBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpY65voKEzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfnbcnrjRJY&feature=related

you guys should watch all 4 videos, some really amazing pieces in there...lucky Japanese :p if fish like this were priced the same as domestics, Id have 2 tank fulls in a heartbeat. theres something about wild caughts that intrigue me...you know...no one MADE that fish, its just good ol' mother nature. and the choice specimens are rare.

[wgtaylor]

Pretty cool video's. The first three video's are of wilds that have been captive for a while and colored up very nice.
The second video of a proven pair with fry is great.:):)
The fourth video appear to be wilds that have been in captivity much less time but they sure are finding out where their food is coming from now.
Really hard to match the beauty of wild discus especially with fry, thanks for the links Jason. :)
Bill

[Eddie]

The second video is from Dan, he is a member on here. ;)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=67485

Eddie

[wgtaylor]

Thought I recognized that background !:D

[William Palumbo]

That pair in Dan's video are SWEET...I love the plainer look of the female? her body looks like velvet. Such even coloration. I also love the long red feelers on the male? Discus. I always liked long trailers/feelers on Discus. Used to be pretty common in the Asian Discus in the early years...Bill

[Eddie]

That pair in Dan's video are SWEET...I love the plainer look of the female? her body looks like velvet. Such even coloration. I also love the long red feelers on the male? Discus. I always liked long trailers/feelers on Discus. Used to be pretty common in the Asian Discus in the early years...Bill

Ditto! Those ventral fins are SUPER long, very angelic. :angel:

[TankWatcher]

Wilds are very hard to get a hold of in Australia. I have been waiting on some to come for ages. The price I have paid in the past for wilds ranged from between AUD$180 to AUD$220, and these will be for the plainer wilds. We don't get A Grade discus (wild or domestic) because the price is too high.

[Pelle]

Hello from Sweden!
Posting some photos taken yesterday of my Wild Red Spotted Green (Tefé region). My favourite Discus!
I’ve had them for little over a year now and they have really started to show some nice colours. I paid about 100USD (700 Swedish crowns) each, and I hope to find some more of the same type. They have never been sick and they eat like horses.
The thing with wilds is that you have to give them time and not get disappointed after a month or two because they don’t show great colours. It takes about six months and good water parameters to get them used to their new home. If you wait long enough and give them a good environment to swim in you will not be disappointed in any wild Discus.
The tank my Discus live in is 450liter (120 US gal) 150x60x50cm (59x23,5x19,7”) with mixed light sand and gravel. The background is a Back to nature Slimline that I think work nicely with the colour of the inhabitants and don’t take unnecessary space,
All fish in this tank are wild caught: fifty Cardinal tetras, one L-177, two Ancistrus (+ some fry’s) and only two Corydoras right now.
More corys will follow and a few other L-#? And hopefully some more Wild RSG.

//Pelle

[NanDiscus]

Pelle,

This setup is brilliant.

Nandi

[roclement]

Pelle,

Beautiful tank and pictures! There is much truth in what you say! My group of wilds came from Hans and are gorgeous, I'll post pictures later and are beautiful fish! Then I adopted two wilds from a LFS that were beat-up and and emanciated, one didn't make it but another one did and now is in the same tank as the other wilds and I challenge anyone to point him out in the pictures! Once they get aclimated and well cared for, the fins get clean, and uniform, collor comes out...looks great!

Having said that...I haven't seen a true "cabeca azul" discus since I moved to the US! Hans is right! If he can't get people to buy the $100 high quality wilds...how can we find the super high quality wilds here in the US???

My brother who lived in Japan sent me some pictures and I was floored!

The other thing is that some exporters in Brasil are being succesful in breeding wild caught fish in captivity so they are exporting tank bred F1 wilds as full blown wild caught, nothing wrong with that if they are diclosed as such but some people have issues with that! The obvious advantage of the F1 versus true wild caughts...easier to feed, easier to adapt to water condition, better quality fish with no scars on any kind...and the most obvious...easier to breed!

I've spoken with one exporter directly that sells both F1 stock and true wild caught, he discloses them as such...just not sure if his buyers do that...in any case...Hans has some great wilds, I can't wait to be able to go over to his place to pick up some more!!!

Rod

[Pelle]

Thanks Nadi!!!

[Pelle]

Thanks Rod! I'm looking forward to see your photos.

Pelle

[roclement]

first shot...

[roclement]

snakeskin got in the first shot...sorry!

[NanDiscus]

These fish would fall under the "Holy Molly" category over here.
Really nice ones! Just what you'd expect from Hans. :D

Nandi

[MarkPulawski]

Pelle,

This setup is brilliant.

Nandi

I agree, a really nice display!

[kirkp]

Pelle and Rod, you both have some beautiful fish.

Rod, who was the exporter that dealt with the F1s? PM me if you like.

Kirk

[ashaysathe]

Pelle - awesome fish. I think I have seen threads of them spawning as well. Super nice.

Oh man Rod.. these are unreal. Beautiful.. Bravo !!!!

[Pelle]

first shot...

Super nice!!! Wonderful coloration and very nice shape.
They are all stunning but I wonder if the middle one is wild caught? Have never seen one like that? Looks like a snake skin or something similar?
//Pelle

[roclement]

Super nice!!! Wonderful coloration and very nice shape.
They are all stunning but I wonder if the middle one is wild caught? Have never seen one like that? Looks like a snake skin or something similar?
//Pelle

it is a snakeskin, I posted on the second picture that the snake made it in to the shot.

Rod

[Discus-Hans]

Oh man Rod.. these are unreal. Beautiful.. Bravo !!!!

Ashay, I've a few more lol lol lol

Hans

[Eddie]

Pelle, very colorful RSG!

Rod, those wilds from Hans are marvelous! They look very nice! I could do with a tankful myself, great buy!

Eddie

[MarkPulawski]

Just wondering on the breeding of these "show" wilds, would they throw a certain % of offspring that had the same show characteristics? Or would they throw all common. I would suppose that 2 fully colored WC fish would throw quite a few that would look like them or better....if color is genetic. However a project like this would take a great magnitude as the late coloring up of WC fish would require grow out of entire spawns. I would love to hear if anyone has gone down this road. Perhaps this would be best answered in a new thread?
mark

[Eddie]

Just wondering on the breeding of these "show" wilds, would they throw a certain % of offspring that had the same show characteristics? Or would they throw all common. I would suppose that 2 fully colored WC fish would throw quite a few that would look like them or better....if color is genetic. However a project like this would take a great magnitude as the late coloring up of WC fish would require grow out of entire spawns. I would love to hear if anyone has gone down this road. Perhaps this would be best answered in a new thread?
mark

Great question Mark, I guess it would be great to find out! It would definitely be a lot of work....but well worth it IMO. I mean, the strains/types of today all orginated from those genes right?

Eddie

[William Palumbo]

I can only go by what I have done. Breeding two good looking wilds together, produced mediocre, plain Discus. I have seen it like that in my tanks, and other local hobbyist tanks. Is it all wild fish, I doubt it. Even in most pics of the so-called HeckelxHeckel spawning...the pics of the juvies have very poor looking 5th bars. Now cross a sweet looking wild to a domestic...and you see very nice results...Bill

[Discus-Hans]

It's strange and I don't know what it is, but with wilds the 2nd or 3rd generation, or F2 / F3 most of the time look more like the parents (or Grand parents) as the F1.

Hans

[ashaysathe]

Interesting point Hans.

I think this is where Mendelian Law of Inheritence come into picture.

And also isn't this what domestic breeding is all about - by domestic breeding we are isolating the gene pool and thus improving the predictability of the outcome?

Same may apply for wilds too - if the wilds came from isolated areas where one of the kind wilds are found then the outcome can be predicted.

[Discus-n00b]

Love those RSG! Greens have always been my favorite.

[TankWatcher]

Pelle, Rod beautiful wilds. Pelle, those are just how I'd like the wild RSG I'm searcing for to look. But I seriously doubt any of the quality will make it to my shores.

[Jhhnn]

I can only go by what I have done. Breeding two good looking wilds together, produced mediocre, plain Discus. I have seen it like that in my tanks, and other local hobbyist tanks. Is it all wild fish, I doubt it. Even in most pics of the so-called HeckelxHeckel spawning...the pics of the juvies have very poor looking 5th bars. Now cross a sweet looking wild to a domestic...and you see very nice results...Bill

Makes sense to me. Wild fish have wild heterozygous genes. Even breeding two exceptional individuals will still yield fish with their wild genotype. Unless the fish were collected from the same school, chances are that they're only distantly related, reinforcing that effect. Selective breeding of those offspring can intensify the desired traits, as can line breeding back to the parent with the traits desired. F2 more colorful than F1? Absolutely, if the breeder makes the right selections among closely related individuals... something probably not available when breeding F1.

[MarkPulawski]

pretty interesting...i do remember something about subsequent generations taking on characteristics, too bad it would be such a large undertaking with resources being so limited for most folks. I do find it interesting that something like this has not come out of the Far Eastern fish operations where so many Discus come from, if they were to get those F2's and F3's going to produce a fixed Royal Green, Royal Blue & Red Spotted Grren that were wild color morphs in tank raised offspring....how much demand would there be? To have tank raised RG's, RB's & RSG's that are near identical to the high end WC fish....well maybe I have a winning lottery ticket in my pocket, if so i will take on this several year project.
mark

[Jhhnn]

pretty interesting...i do remember something about subsequent generations taking on characteristics, too bad it would be such a large undertaking with resources being so limited for most folks. I do find it interesting that something like this has not come out of the Far Eastern fish operations where so many Discus come from, if they were to get those F2's and F3's going to produce a fixed Royal Green, Royal Blue & Red Spotted Grren that were wild color morphs in tank raised offspring....how much demand would there be? To have tank raised RG's, RB's & RSG's that are near identical to the high end WC fish....well maybe I have a winning lottery ticket in my pocket, if so i will take on this several year project.
mark

I think that's what happened many years ago when discus were first bred on a commercial scale. And I suspect that fish like that are still available in limited quantities. Domestic royal blues come to mind. They're not all completely "royal", and not widely bred, either, because breeders need to go with the market if they're to prosper.

There are apparently other varieties like that, too. Lawrence Soon offers a "wild red" strain in his catalogue, for example, and some turq varieties yield throwbacks that closely resemble wild fish...

Part of the appeal of wild fish, at least for me, is that they are "different", each one unique, no two exactly the same, something that runs counter to the goals of commercial breeding and internet marketing. They want a predictable and uniform product- hard to blame them for that. That's what most buyers want, as well. wysiwyg. I think that sellers do themselves a disservice when they post pics of only the very best specimens of a given strain- it leads to disappointed buyers... The fact that near-wild fish color up late complicates the whole process tremendously, too.