Incompatible Pairs or bad genes

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Just curious on what everyones experiences have been with pairs that just don't work out... spend enough time on the forums and you'll read about inbreeding too much in some lines or bad genetics...so I was just curious what everyones experiences have been.
Have you ever had a pair that just could not produce good fry when all your others were fine? Did the fry have alot of defects?If so what were they? Did the fry have a poor survival rate and growth rate? poor shape etc?

-al

[William Palumbo]

Hi Al...I have a wild Blue male, and he was paired with RoseRed female, and over 75%+ of their fry had deformed(not formed) top fins. After a few more spawns, it was the same thing. I paired him with another RR female, thinking she was the problem, and to my dismay...more batches of fry with the same defects. It was coming from my wild male. I would have never guessed that. Anyways he is in a community tank now. Wild genes...go figure!...Bill

[brewmaster15]

Bill,
Thats interesting...and the Rose red females were good breeders otherwise?

-al

[William Palumbo]

Yes Al...Is why I just KNEW it was my original RR female. Nothing like that with my RRXRR pairs...Bill

[brewmaster15]

Sounds like thats a confirmed one!:) What kind of defects did you see?

-al

[John_Nicholson]

I have seldom gone further then about F4, but I have never had a pair that threw many poor fish. All spawns will have some culls but nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe I have just been lucky. I know that when some people get a pair going they will ride that horse as far as it will go, but I have always mixed and matched my fish around. Seldom do I spawn the same pair more then 3 or 4 times. I guess it is better to be lucky then good...

-john

[Rod]

I have almost lost my red turk strain from poor breeding, I have bred these since the late 80's and they produced flawless fry for many years. In 2000 i crossed with red diamond (rsg x red turk) and produced awesome fry so went along this line to continue on, but f2 is very difficult to breed, and f3 almost immpossible. Males grow enormous and thick (they are my biggest discus) but are very lazy (ie stupid lol) and hardly any eggs are fertilized. I am not bothering with them anymore, but i still have some in my tanks.

[William Palumbo]

Al...this is the defect that shows up most. I have seen and gotten it before from other pairs, but usually only one or two from some spawns. My older Brilliant pair...RARELY throw any culls. I guess the most common defect I see amongst some, but not all of my pairs are the short gill flaps...Bill

[Jhhnn]

Hi Al...I have a wild Blue male, and he was paired with RoseRed female, and over 75%+ of their fry had deformed(not formed) top fins. After a few more spawns, it was the same thing. I paired him with another RR female, thinking she was the problem, and to my dismay...more batches of fry with the same defects. It was coming from my wild male. I would have never guessed that. Anyways he is in a community tank now. Wild genes...go figure!...Bill

Have you tried pairing him with another strain, like a turk, cobalt or blue snakeskin? Just curious... might just be a bad combination w/ your reds, rather than something w/ that particular fish... do other strains cross OK w/ your reds?

Great topic, btw...

[William Palumbo]

Hi Jhhnn...I never crossed him with anything else...at least not yet. I plan to start mixing some pairs up over the winter to see what happens...Bill

[Dutch dude]

Hi there,

Just my opinion on this,.......I'm one of the costomers who seem to have bought fish with poor genetics from a large "reputable" breeder. I know I'm not the only one with this issue (and this particular breeder). I also realize some people blame the breeder but ended up with deformed fish becouse of their own lack of knowledge how to grow out small fry for example.

Al,....I think it is a good idea to start a post abouth qualety in the hobby and the issues some costomers have with poor strains or just bad selected fish. I do think you have chosen the wrong group of people to ask. I notised some breeders responded and thats realy honnest of them to stand up and tell us abouth their experiences. So far I seen some common and easy to defect flaws. If those breeders were living in the same aria were I live I would feel more confidence to buy from them,....becouse they seem to be honnest people. But,...there is an other group of breeders not willing to take risks by admitting they have deformed fish among their batches of fry or tell us abouth the poor genetics. I expect the people who are still close to the hobby have a higher standard of fish or at least try to keep it at a higher standard. Imo the problem is more with the breeders who make a living out of it and money becomes more important as the hobby. Lets face it,....the majority of people that buy a discus are focused at the nice strong colors of a discus and lack in knowledge to recognise qualety. I large reputable breeder wrote not so long ago that 95% of their costomers go to the shop to buy a nice looking strong colored discus and only 5% of their costomers are looking for real qualety (and have to knowledge to see the diference). Those are the breeders I'm woried abouth becouse they don't seem to be to much interested in the small 5%.

I would be willing to pay 20% extra on top of the normal price and receive good qualety fish. How abouth you?

[mmorris]

I would be willing to pay 20% extra on top of the normal price and receive good qualety fish. How abouth you?

I expect to pay the asking price and receive good quality fish. :)

[Rod]

I would be willing to pay 20% extra on top of the normal price and receive good qualety fish. How abouth you?

Absolutely, but i wish it was only 20%. To give you an idea, a very high quality penang eruption(show grade) is about 400% higher in cost that a regular good quality penang eruption. A high grade albino san merah about 200% higher than a regular one, and a white butterfly is about 50% higher in cost than a white butterfly throwback. Many suppliers grade out the fish and price accordingly.

Rod:)

[Dutch dude]

Hi Rod,

Well I wasn't talking abouth show grade qualety discus but just good qualety.

Let me explain. Imo good qualety fish are healthy, are from the right color morph and don't show serious deformaties like a bended spine, large saddles, beaky look, large fin deformaties. So I'm not looking for top grade perfect fish but just normal qualety

If I buy alenquer from a breeder who claims to have high qualety fish I expect to receive fish like that and not a beaky alenquer with the paterns and colors of a red turq. I don't have problems with some small imperfections but I don't like a fish like this. (+/- 6 months old 5 inch alenquer)

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5286/dsc02063c.jpg

[Peachtree Discus]

i grow all my fish out to adults before sale, so i have the opportunity to see the end result of an entire spawn. I had a pair of striated turks that produced decent spawns. I noticed the largest fish from the spawn would typically have 1 gill that would open HUGE (perhaps short gill plate). neither of the parents had gill plate issues and it was only the one largest fish of the spawn that showed the problem. I broke up the pair cuz I got a better looking female. the new pair has yet to make it to wrigglers.


...I noticed some breeders responded and that's real honest of them to stand up and tell us about their experiences. ....because they seem to be honest people. But,...there is an other group of breeders not willing to take risks by admitting they have deformed fish among their batches of fry or tell us about the poor genetics.

A seller's "honestly" may depend on the seller's knowledge and nature of the defect. If a seller always sells off entire spawns at a young age - then all defects/flaws may not be so obvious. And, as you said, some people don't care for show quality fish. If you look at the show quality fish as the standard, then a "normal" fish could be looked at as a genetically flawed fish.