What to do with demented discus?

[CammieTime]

I want to know what I should do with the demented discus I get every once in a while. You know the kind, they are somewhat stressed, don't swim with the main group, stare off into la la land into the back corner of the tank tail facing the front of the tank, don't really eat, and just...don't....die. They go on like this for months and they are an ugly element to the naturally attractive flow of my display tank and the rest of my healthy discus.

What should I do with these demented discus? They don't show symptoms of hex or other sickness. Of the two fish like this I've had this year, one I think got this way because my water didn't quite agree with him. He became skeleton skinny and always dark/stressed, but didn't die, even after 5 months of this. I finally killed him because he just didn't look happy/healthy. The other fish used to be my #1 big healthy beautiful bully brilliant turk, but once I put him in a tank with other fish his size he was no longer the bully and slid into this long depression and now just sits alone in the back corner of the tank most of the time. Like the other fish, he's been like this for a long time. I really don't want to kill him, he was my favorite fish last year, but he certainly isn't happy.

So my questions are: A) Do you guys ever have discus that end up like this? B) What do you do with them? C) Can you ever get them back to full strength? D) What causes them to become demented?

I did notice that once I killed the one demented fish that didn't like my water, the rest of the dicus in the tank reacted very positively and swam around a lot more and appeared less stressed. It was obviously a good thing that I got rid of him, keeping only a group of healthy happy fish.

[tcyiu]

... So my questions are: A) Do you guys ever have discus that end up like this? B) What do you do with them? C) Can you ever get them back to full strength? D) What causes them to become demented?

Wow. The quick answer to your question A is, yes I do have discus like that. I've had a Blue Diamond that became very very ill, and slid into that behaviour. Twice over two years. But he did come back and regained his number two position in the pecking order. However, on the third time, I finally put him down - just like you did. On the first two times, I have no idea what I did to bring him back. I did not medicate.

Currently, I have another BD that was healthy, became unhealthy, medicated and came back to full health, and has slid back into weird behaviour. He will NOT eat. He rushes over to the food like everyone else, but will not partake. When he is not getting beat up (he is now low man on totem) he spends most of his time stalking and harassing the Sterbai cories.

Perry, another SD member has advised culling. I can't bear to do that. I'm at a loss as to what to do. Shrug.

Tim

[bettebulldog]

maybe get another tank and put all the short bus kids in that tank. there has to be a reason why they dont like there surroundings now so maybe a seperate tank would help them.

[Jhhnn]

I've not had fish like that, although I've seen some.

If it's a new fish, I'd strongly suspect internal parasites, ones that require an intermediate host. Some worms are like that. Other fish won't get sick because the intermediate host is absent in the aquarium.

I also suspect that seemingly healthy specimens harbor organisms that can become pathogenic when the subject is stressed or traumatized.

John Nicholson wrote what I consider to be a very interesting article about his experience with cryptobia-

http://home.flash.net/~tcichlid/cryptobia.html

He was dealing with a particularly virulent strain. It seems to me that less potent varieties could lead to the kind of general wasting away described in the OP... Other fish in the environment would very likely harbor the same organisms, but at a level where they appear healthy...

[Eddie]

I kill it

[tcyiu]

John Nicholson wrote what I consider to be a very interesting article about his experience with cryptobia-

http://home.flash.net/~tcichlid/cryptobia.html


VERY interesting. Seems to mirror my experience (minus the parts about breeding).

Here's another article I found after reading your link.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM077

Here's a quote that's kinda depressing:
"Currently, there is no effective treatment for Cryptobia. Part of the difficulty may be that the parasite seems to have an intracellular stage. Parasites are occasionally seen in phagocytic cells, called macrophages, which are part of the immune system and are supposed to destroy foreign protein by engulfing it. Cryptobia seems to be able to live within these cells rather than being destroyed by them. This can make it difficult to treat Cryptobia because most drugs are not able to penetrate the cell wall of a macrophage. "

Coincidentally, I put my not eating BD in a metro bath just before reading your link. Will see if this helps at all.

Tim

[tcyiu]

I kill it

Wow. I can't do it.

Tim

[Eddie]

Wow. I can't do it.

Tim

LOL, not immediately and its not too often that this happens. I'll definitely try to save the fish but there comes a time when its too late. :o Then I'll put it down but this is definitely not a common occurrence.

Eddie

[Jhhnn]

I think John's article is newer than the one you quote, tcyiu. The medication he used, dimetridazole, is available here-

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/5070.html

It's also listed on the label as an ingredient in Clout, but the MSDS indicates metronidazole. I emailed a query to the manufacturer, never got an answer...

As I said earlier, this is all hypothetical on my part, as I've not experienced this problem, hope I never do. The sad truth is that we're left guessing when something like this happens- the best we can hope for is to make an educated guess, get lucky...

[CammieTime]

The one that I still have that is acting like this was JUST FINE for over year. It wasn't until I put him into a tank with other fish his size (fish I'd had for a year and were happy too) and he was no longer the bully did he start to become weird. The other two fish that were moved with him are happy and healthy.

I don't think it's a sickness, I think it is psychological in some way.

[tcyiu]

I don't think it's a sickness, I think it is psychological in some way.

I do agree that there is some "mental" issue involved, although I hesitate to use that term because most fish aren't smart enough to have mental issues. They mostly react out of instinct. So maybe it's a brain wiring issue.

Most of my new discus have a coordination problem between the eye and the mouth (which is very likely a bad wiring problem). Meaning that they aim at a piece of food and consistently miss. The aggressive ones don't seem too bothered and will keep trying until they get the food. The sickly BD seems to give up after the third try. This is what I mean by a mental issue. He doesn't seem to have the stick-to-it-iveness/tenacity that the others have.

He seems demoralized by the whole affair and just gave up trying to eat. Plus he feels threatened as soon as another discus heads in his general direction.

Tim

[Jhhnn]

I think stress can set the process in motion, but that there's some underlying cause, something not quite right even before the symptoms appear...

I try not to anthropomorphize wrt my fish- as tcyiu offers, they're not really smart enough for us to make attributions wrt their mental state...

[tcyiu]

It's hard not to anthropomorphize, but language is also partly to blame. For example, when I used the word "demoralized," it's so much more succinct and descriptive than "the fish ceased to peck at empty space because of negative conditioning." LOL

Yea. At the end of the day, fish brains are really basic. We really can't and shouldn't ascribe emotions or higher order mental functions to them.

Tim

[Jhhnn]

I didn't realize it for a long time, but one of my scorps, the smallest, has the same eye/mouth coordination problem. I discovered that he/she does alright at feeding time if I use something that tends to stay together in a chunk, that's hard to miss...

I don't understand if it's a problem that develops over time, or what... seems to me it'd be tough to raise fish having that problem to saleable size w/o having lots of food in the tank at all times...

[tcyiu]

According to Kenny, they feed frozen worms or frozen shrimp/BH mix in large cubes. Can't really miss when it's that big.

The issue is at the juvie-almost-subadult stage. At this juncture, every little scrap helps. The ones who suffer this problem less - well guess what ... they're much larger. The ones with the worst coordination, stay small.

Tim

[rickztahone]

I don't understand if it's a problem that develops over time, or what... ...

i've had small juvies that have this problem and i do not believe it is something that developed but something they are born with. it is my belief that although we are getting great fish in regards to size/shape/patter/color some things must be compromised. one of those being eye-sight. it's difficult IMO to have a breeding program that takes eye-sight into consideration. i know i probably wouldn't if i bred discus. this is all just IMO though :p

[Fraise]

I finally killed him because he just didn't look happy/healthy.

how did you go about doing this?

[mareshow]

I have a discus similar to this guy, he just swims around, not usually with the group and almost always has his stress bars showing, until i put my face infront of the aquarium and then the stress bars are gone and he is all happy and swimming about, its really quite hilarious to be honest, could i kill him? no, hes not my prettiest fish and i would love to replace him, but he's growing and is healthy (or at least i think he is) just a little screwed in the head me thinks lol

[exv152]

VERY interesting. Seems to mirror my experience (minus the parts about breeding).

Here's another article I found after reading your link.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM077

Here's a quote that's kinda depressing:
"Currently, there is no effective treatment for Cryptobia. Part of the difficulty may be that the parasite seems to have an intracellular stage. Parasites are occasionally seen in phagocytic cells, called macrophages, which are part of the immune system and are supposed to destroy foreign protein by engulfing it. Cryptobia seems to be able to live within these cells rather than being destroyed by them. This can make it difficult to treat Cryptobia because most drugs are not able to penetrate the cell wall of a macrophage. "

Coincidentally, I put my not eating BD in a metro bath just before reading your link. Will see if this helps at all.

Tim

I just had a female leopard die two days ago, which I suspect had cryptobia. She had not fed in weeks, emaciated, dark coloured (black), and constantly hiding out under the leaves of my huge amazon sword. Then in the last couple of days she started hanging out near the surface (hypoxia). I just hope the others don't get it too. Thanks for posting this link, it was helpful.

[Eddie]

I just had a female leopard die two days ago, which I suspect had cryptobia. She had not fed in weeks, emaciated, dark coloured (black), and constantly hiding out under the leaves of my huge amazon sword. Then in the last couple of days she started hanging out near the surface (hypoxia). I just hope the others don't get it too. Thanks for posting this link, it was helpful.

Those are symptoms of many diseases.

Eddie

[discusjoe27]

I got some prozac,geodon,seroquel,and depakote I can send yeah bad old crazy discus.:p try to figure out what is wrong with them. when I got a bad wild caught tefe green I had to treat with proazola(spelling?) flakes. it didn't make it I didn't up putting it in a samwich bag, then froze it. then throw it away.

[marodri]

every blue diamond i get goes thru this demented state i had several discus with me five years already and all thrive except blue diamonds guess weak genetics i have a mixed blue pigeon blood who changes color well i like to call her a mutt discus nothing gets to her knock on wood it