pls help discus isnt looking so happy

[bigslick]

hi i just recently started with the whole discus thing..
i bought a few discus from a lfs and a few from out of town from someone on here..
the problem is that all the local ones are doing very well in the tank but the others are having a hard time adjusting.
do you think that has to do with diff water ph or hardness and so on from diff citys?
cause the fish were looking good when they arrived so it wasnt that the fish wasnt taken good care of... few are starting to come around but some are still not looking soo good yet eating..

thanks in advance

Darren

[mmorris]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Darren. We can't even hazzard a guess without a lot more information because there are just too many possibilities. What, exactly, are the symptoms? What are your water stats (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph)? How long have you had both batches? Was the second batch quarantined? What is your water change regime - how much and how often? How many fish in how large a tank? How big are they?

[plark]

How long has your tank been set up? Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite levels? Are you using Tap water? Need some more info before we can tell you what's going on

[bigslick]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Darren. We can't even hazzard a guess without a lot more information because there are just too many possibilities. What, exactly, are the symptoms? What are your water stats (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph)? How long have you had both batches? Was the second batch quarantined? What is your water change regime - how much and how often? How many fish in how large a tank? How big are they?

the tank was set for my peacocks before.. i changed 60% of the water before 2 days bofore i added them in... its a 135gal their are 16 ranging from 3-6'.. 2 was added today and are eatting and doing fine..
all fish from store are quarantined. i also got the product the lfs here used to quarantine their discus with and added it to the tank and seem to help a few of them so far in the last 9 days..
3 of the 9 from out of town are doing well now..2 are staying really dark with white cloud all over the body but eating.. and the others are not eatting but same problem they are very dark with white cloud and slim on them.. i'm not sure if it makes a diff that i have a black background..

i've changed the water 3 times at 40% in the last 10 days.. tape water with prime temp at 84 same as tank..

just strange to me as the locals one are good so i figure it was teh water diff and the few of them are slowy adjusting to it and more and more of them seem as time goes by..

just kinda wondering if i should take the others out into a hospital tank? or wait and see.. i was also gonna get teh discus buffer dunno if i wanna keep making changes at this moment?

[TankWatcher]

Hi and welcome to the hobby :)

What was your quaratine period for each group of fish you added.
all fish from store are quarantinedDo you mean that you quaratined them, or do you mean the LFS did this. What about the ones from out of town, did you quarantine them?

When these are adults, you will most likely need a bigger tank. From what I have learnt here, adult discus require 10G, so 16 in a 135G is too many. If these are juveniles, it's ok for a while.

It's good to hear that some are already adjusting. Discus do tend to take a while to settle into a new environment.

[April]

id say your ones from the lfs..were carriers and had immunities to what htey were carrying..but..the other guys didnt have immunities and got ill. thats how it works..its the ones who had been sick before ..thatr carry..and the new ones would suffer. fish from lfs have been mixed with alot of others and fish in the store .
id start by adding salt . one tablespoon per 10 gallons. if that doesnt help..then id get maracyn or acriflavin.
best to get all your fish at the same time from the same source..new fish..new tank. at least for 6 weeks..then add one fish to the new group and see if all goes well..

[plark]

Are you using anything like Prime to take out chlorine? Are you letting the water sit for 24 hours before adding to the tank?

[mmorris]

the tank was set for my peacocks before.. i changed 60% of the water before 2 days bofore i added them in... its a 135gal their are 16 ranging from 3-6'.. 2 was added today and are eatting and doing fine..
all fish from store are quarantined. i also got the product the lfs here used to quarantine their discus with and added it to the tank and seem to help a few of them so far in the last 9 days..
3 of the 9 from out of town are doing well now..2 are staying really dark with white cloud all over the body but eating.. and the others are not eatting but same problem they are very dark with white cloud and slim on them.. i'm not sure if it makes a diff that i have a black background..

i've changed the water 3 times at 40% in the last 10 days.. tape water with prime temp at 84 same as tank..

just strange to me as the locals one are good so i figure it was teh water diff and the few of them are slowy adjusting to it and more and more of them seem as time goes by..

just kinda wondering if i should take the others out into a hospital tank? or wait and see.. i was also gonna get teh discus buffer dunno if i wanna keep making changes at this moment?

I'm still having trouble figuring out the scenerio here. You have 16 discus, 9 from out of town and 7 from the LFS. How long have the two groups been together? Did you get both batches of discus at the same time, 10 days ago, and put them into the same tank together? But you added two more today? Were the peacocks removed immediately before the new fish were added? It may well be cross-contamination, as April pointed out, parasite or bacteria, but it sounds to me like your tank isn't cycled. It's really important that you measure your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels. Black background wouldn't make a difference.

[April]

the best thing to do is to talk to who you bought the new batch from..and maybe they can help you with figuring out what went wrong.

arent peacocks africans? if thats the case and you have rock etc in there..that creates or holds hardness..it wouldve been better to redo the whole tank. also water is quite hard in calgary..maybe they didnt acclimate well to your harder water. whats your ph. the fish being shipped most likely had fairly soft water by the time they were done shipping. less than 7 . a big jump up from say 6.5 to 7.8 is too much too fast.
but..quarantine is still the rule..new discus..new tank..separate hoses, nets, etc.

[bigslick]

ph - 6.5
nitrite - 0.3
nitrate - 10-20
ammonie -0.6 -1.2

[icemanx23]

ammonie -0.6 -1.2 . That doesn't look good. I am no expert.

[Chad Hughes]

ph - 6.5
nitrite - 0.3
nitrate - 10-20
ammonie -0.6 -1.2

With a Ph of 6.5 I wouldn't sweat the ammonia too much, but I'd get some salt in the tank, as recommended above, to ease the impact of the nitrite on the fish.

Best wishes!

[judy]

if you have changed 40% of the water 3 times in the last 10 days and are getting ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (but that is weirdly high) readings like that, you're going through a cycle. change a third of the water daily, keep testing. You have added far too many fish all at one time and your biofilter has been overwhelmed by the demands placed on it. The nitrite and ammonia readings are likely why your imports are sick (the LFS ones may have become accustomed to bad water quality.) And those nitrate levels aren't helping. Many discus keepers insist on keeping their nitrate levels BELOW 10.
You will be very lucky indeed if you don't lose many, most or even all these fish by the time your tank completes its cycle.

[mmorris]

I'm with Judy, although I think the nitrates are fine (I like mine under 10) and I would be changing even more daily until the biofilter catches up. What are you using for filtration? It's also likely that the lfs fish brought something to the others.

[bigslick]

thanks for all the replys...
the tank has been up for over a year with other fish i've been doing 40% every 3 days but im gonna do as you guys say i'm gonna change 20% everyday from now on..
they are all eatting now and slowly getting their color back tho i did loose 2 of them but the rest seem to be coming along very well..
hopfuly daily water changes will be even better i'm also useing seachem paraguard right now.

[mmorris]

Since you are showing ammonia and nitrites I'd be doing something more like 75% a day for the next week or so. Keep us up to date, and I hope the rest continue on the road to recovery.

[bigslick]

thank you they are doing better and better everyday...

i have learned to always have a extra tank for quranteen..
i should be getting either a 180 or 230gal soon.. i also have a 120 gal i'm in process of emtying and do another set up for a few discus
and ofcorse a 40gal for new fish

[judy]

Just make sure those tanks are fully cycled before you put discus in them! And don't dump fifteen fish in all at once!!

[bigslick]

my tank was cycled like i said its been up for over a year...

[judy]

With how many fish in it for that year? Bear in mind that when you throw fifteen fish into a tank at once, you dramatically increase the bioload immediately, and the tank does not have nearly enough nitrifying bacteria to cope with that load.
Why do you think you are struggling with ammonia and nitrite readings? A cycled tank has ZERO ammonia and ZERO nitrite. The high nitrate indicates the tank has gone through a cycle, yes.
But the presence of ammonia and nitrite is a guaranteed indicator your tank is in fact cycling again-- it is going through another cycle, sometimes called a mini-cycle, in order to develop enough nitrifying bacteria to cope with the higher bioload you've put in there.
Understand your water chemistry; it's the most important aspect of keeping discus. Just throwing fish in and hoping you'll only "lose a couple" is no way to start of keeping discus.

[bigslick]

well i wasnt hoping any would die lol...
like i said i'm new to the discus world i have never had this problem with any other kind of fish so how do you expect me to think its bad to add fish to a tank? when all fish were doing find in the tank before?
either way thanks for you input i'm not gona sit here and argue with ya..

[judy]

But you might be interested in learning something, I would hope. Otherwise, why are you even here?

[bigslick]

i'm learning did i not say i learnt?
all your doing is acting like you the **** and not helping me with anything..
i hope you cycle this i hope you do that and not dump a bunch a fish in and hope they live next time lol....

your the kind of ppl that make me not even wanna be here

i posted what was wrong found out and in process of fixing it right now
thanks to a few ppl on here

[TankWatcher]

Hi bigslick

I'm glad things are improving for you & your discus. Re the nitrate reading (10-20), the water coming straight out of my tap is around the same. My discus have been happy for many years now. I would love to be able to get my nitrates to under 10, but unless I use RO water (which I won't, due to the waste water created in making RO & Australia is in a drought) I am stuck will higher than ideal nitrate readings. Do what you can to get it down, but ......

Yes the other readings were an issue, so I agree that for whatever reason, your well established tank went through a mini cycle. I swapped an established African tank over to a discus tank & put a tankful of my existing discus straight in. Now I moved my discus in on the same day the Africans (& their decor) moved out. I used the existing filters, but obviously with a whole tankful of fresh water (used some from the tank they came from). The filters never missed a beat.

Just trying to figure out the reason you might have gone into a mini cycle. Did you have a day or more when the tank was empty of inhabitants (eg Africans moved out, but no discus immediately replaced them) therefore meaning the good bacteria in your established filters was not being fed? This might have caused a die off. Another possibility is if your Africans were smaller (both in the number of fish & their physical size) than the discus you replaced them with???? Just tossing possibilities around.

I'm glad you have a QT now. That's such a necessity.

Don't forget to share some pictures. We love pictures here.

[mmorris]

Just trying to figure out the reason you might have gone into a mini cycle.

When you add 16 discus to a 135 gallon tank, you're going to get a mini-cycle. I think Judy explained it beautifully. The solution, IMO, is lots of substantial water changes until the filters catch up, and let's hope that was the problem. If it doesn't help, be sure to post some pics and we can look at another potential reason for the problems.

[TankWatcher]

Yes, 16 in 135G is too many for sure, if they are adults. I think still too many even if they are juveniles, but I'll leave that to others to comment. Sadly he's now down to 14, so he's now pretty close to the correct number.

But the key thing here is that it was an established tank. When you do a fishless cycle using an ammonia source, aren't we told that at the end of the cycle we can fully stock the tank in one go? That's what the articles I've read say. IMO, if the bioload of the African occupants = the bioload of the discus occupants, then in theory the swap over should have worked.

Now, African Tanks are usually overstocked tanks. The hobbyist is recommended to overstock them to spread the aggression around. If that 135G had been fully stocked, jam packed with big meaty Africans and they moved out on the same day as the discus moved in, the tank shouldn't have gone into a mini cycle. I did this myself. I grant you that I stuck to the 1 discus per 10G rule, but I assure you my filter never skipped a beat. It may have helped that my tank was over filtered (72G with 2 big eheim canisters). I also knew I could immediately return them to their previous tank, which was still running, so I did have a back up plan.

IMO, there must have been some unintentional errors in the conversion process that caused the mini cycle. For example, too great a time lapse between Africans moving out & discus moving in; and/or previous African stock level too low in comparison to new discus stock level; in addition to 16 discus being too many for a 138G. But I can understand how a hobbyist, especially if he doesn't fully understand the biological cycle process, could easily make such mistakes & I personally would cut him some slack.

It's just my opinion, but I think it can put new members off, if they feel the forum's members will be too judgmental of them & their errors. What's done is done. He knows he made an error re overstocking and not using a QT. We all need a place where we can go & explain the situation, be kindly told the errors of our way & compassionately helped along the way with fixing things.

[mmorris]

When you do a fishless cycle using an ammonia source, aren't we told that at the end of the cycle we can fully stock the tank in one go? That's what the articles I've read say. IMO, if the bioload of the African occupants = the bioload of the discus occupants, then in theory the swap over should have worked.

IMO, there must have been some unintentional errors in the conversion process that caused the mini cycle. For example, too great a time lapse between Africans moving out & discus moving in; and/or previous African stock level too low in comparison to new discus stock level; in addition to 16 discus being too many for a 138G. But I can understand how a hobbyist, especially if he doesn't fully understand the biological cycle process, could easily make such mistakes & I personally would cut him some slack.

It's just my opinion, but I think it can put new members off, if they feel the forum's members will be too judgmental of them & their errors.

If you've been adding enough ammonia to support a population of bacteria large enough to be immediately prepared for however many discus you care to add, then you shouldn't see a mini-cycle. If he is going through a mini-cycle, then yes, either the tank was left empty, or there was a lighter bio-load. IMO noone is being judgemental.

[TankWatcher]

Hi Martha,

After this I'm backing away from this thread as I've had my say & it's no point saying it again, but I got the feeling that bigslick did feel judged, even though that may not have been the intention.

[mmorris]

I see your point. :)

[frenchie100]

Hi Martha,

After this I'm backing away from this thread as I've had my say & it's no point saying it again, but I got the feeling that bigslick did feel judged, even though that may not have been the intention.

I am right there with you Robyn ;):).

[bigslick]

thanks for all the replys.. i had about 20 africans in the 135 and about 30 before i took some out as they grew.... also i only added 5 adults discus at 1st then aded 4 more from 3-4" each a few days later then another 4 adults another few days later then the newst 2 3" a week later..
i did take the africans out the same day and did a 50% water change before i put the discus in..
i know its a lil much at the time but i was suppost to get a 180gal the same week i got the discus in but got sick for a week and then argued with the tank supplyer for now being able to pick up the tank cause i was sick.. so i'm gonna get a new tank soon once i find a new place to buy one either a 180gal or a 230gal.. i also have a 120gal that i wil be useing in the future for some of them as well..
i have been doing 50% water change everyday since mmorris said to do it daily but i did skip a day and a lil more salt... they are all eating now and useing the whole tank and acting alot more active with a lil agression now at feeding times...only 2 of the 14 doesnt have full color now and seem to be doing better everyday so hope within a week they will come through as well..

again thanks everyone for the replys and inputs:)

[TankWatcher]

Hi bigslick

Sorry to learn you were sick. I'm glad everything is going better & I hope those 2 colour up soon.

What's done is done, but if ever you are stocking a discus tank in the future, it's not a good idea to add discus from several sources in the way you did. Sorry if I'm repeating what was said earlier in this thread :o After you added the first 5 adult discus into the main tank, the next 4 should have gone into a QT tank. Their QT should last 4-6 weeks and if all goes well with both the first and 2nd group, you then transfer one fish from group 1 into the QT tank where the group 2 fish are. Then wait another 2 weeks or so (I'm cautious, so I usually wait a further 4 weeks). If all goes well, you can then transfer all of group 2 into your main tank. After that, you start the process of QT for the 3rd group you add.

Whenever you add new fish, this is the procedure to follow. This can save you a lot of heartache down the track.

Keep us posted. Looking forward to seeing pictures of your discus once you have everything sorted. For the 2 that still aren't coloured up, if you are worried about them, pictures of them may help members here give you advice for them.

HTH.

[bigslick]

thank you tankwatcher.. i have learned that from this experiecne to qt fish before i add them for sure...a;; fos are from 2 diff source only but still need qt.. i have a 40gal that i will be setting up this week for qt so it will be cylcled before i get any more fish.. now i just need to find a place to buy a new tank..
1 of the 2 color comes and goes but doing better and better from the looks of it and the other looks like it slowly coming through as well...

[TankWatcher]

Yes, even if you buy all from the same source, if do buy them at different times the need to QT is still there. Seems a pain at first, but you only need to have a major catastrophe once & then you'll never skip QT again. I learned my lesson the hard way and killed my favourite discus by not QTing a new comer.

We all live & learn.

Right now, with 14 discus in a 135G you are fully stocked and shouldn't add more. Are you still planning to get that large tank (the one that fell through because you were sick) ?

[bigslick]

ya i have lived and learnd from this one as well lol..
i will be getting a bigger tank real soon most likly a 180gal and once i get teh 120gal ready i'll decide what fish will go where.
what is the best thing to use for QT?

[bigslick]

here is a quick pic of most of them
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/babymack_88/DISCUS135.jpg

[Chad Hughes]

Beautiful tank and discus! I really like that fine tan gravel.

Best wishes!

[bigslick]

thanks you chad:)

[frenchie100]

Wow! No kidding! Gorgeous fish and cool set up!

Julie :)

[bigslick]

thank you julie i'll get more pics once everyone is doing better and happy

[TankWatcher]

Wow, that's a very nice selection. They all look healthy & happy. My favourite is the red one, with it's back to the camera & swimming toward the right hand rear corner.

I'd love to see a front on shot of that one.

Re the size of QT, if you have the room a 40-55G is a good size. If you will only be QT'ing one or two discus at a time, you could go smaller.

[bigslick]

i'm gonna use a 40gal for QT.. what is the best med to use for QT?

here are a few pics of some of the fish i have in the tank
Spotted Eruption
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/babymack_88/spottederuption.jpg
Maze
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/babymack_88/MAZE.jpg
RGD
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/babymack_88/RGD2.jpg
Spotted Leos
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/babymack_88/spottedleos.jpg
Red Dragon
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c69/babymack_88/REDDRAGON1.jpg

[Eddie]

Nice fish, really like the Maze. A nice Maze can't be beat by no fish. Good photo skills too.

Take care,

Eddie

[TankWatcher]

Hi

Thanks for the extra photos. I think now the Maze is my favourite, though I do like them all a lot.

QT size sounds good. Preventative treatment whilst in QT can be a controversial subject. A lot of people are very passionate about whether you should, or whether you shouldn't do it. Probably, most will tell you don't treat unless you know you need to ...... but I do treat preventively for worms using a 4 week schedule. Week 1 and Week 4, I treat with Prazi. Week 2 and Week 3, I treat with levamisole. I am thinking of adding a PP treatment before the worming. I don't use antibiotics, unless I know I have a sick fish that needs them.

[MostlyDiscus]

Nice fish for sure. The silver pigeion is one of the nicer ones I have seen. You kind of remind me of Chad, Big "S". You jump in and jump in big. If you have a problem with the new fish comming in or cycling your new tank, Feed less. Discus can go a long time without food unlike their larger family members ie Peacocks and oscars. You have to understand that there are alot of folks that ask for help here(and only a handfull are willing to help) so getting as much info about someones situation is very important. Anyway, Welcome SD

Ed

[bigslick]

Eddie thank you the Maze is deffinitly one of my fav as well

Tank watcher thanks i'll go check if the lfs have all that.. if not i'll see waht they what else they have

[TankWatcher]

Tank watcher thanks i'll go check if the lfs have all that.. if not i'll see waht they what else they have Prazi (short for praziquantal, but don't rely on my spelling :D ) is the active ingredient. It won't be the actual name of the med that LFS sells. Levamisole is more likely to be from a farm produce store. The one I use is actually marketed for pigs & poultry, so you may find it in places you don't expect.

As I live in Australia, you have different options than I do. I've read threads here where sometimes pple in the USA are looking for levamisole, but can't find it. Then someone pops into the thread & tells them where to get it. Do a search here on levamisole, or even worming. I'm sure that will bring you up a whole bunch of sources more relevant to you & your location (as it's no point to give my sources LOL ).

[mmorris]

LFS don't carry wormers around me. I got levamisole at a farm feed store where it is sold as a pig wormer.

[bigslick]

Ed yea i get a lil excited when i get started with something... my brother and the lfs here have been bugging me to get dicus for a while.. and when i saw the red dragons and spotted leos i had to get them and just got a lol out of hand... i also got a few fish from April so i need to set teh 40 gal up asap!

tank watcher thanks i'll go and see waht my store has here

mmorris realy you can give them that?

[TankWatcher]

It doesn't take much to get addicted to discus, does it? Glad you joined us here at Simply, once you got hooked.


mmorris realy you can give them that? You sure can. Like I said, mine is for pigs and poultry. Here's the link http://www.2easy.com.au/shop/article.php?article=2090&cat=1507 BTW, I am sure they do ship to USA, but that obviously wouldn't be your best option.

Here's an interesting article on levamisole, it's treatment and effects. It's from the University of Florida
http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/levamisole-hydrochloride-1

[bigslick]

It doesn't take much to get addicted to discus, does it? Glad you joined us here at Simply, once you got hooked.

You sure can. Like I said, mine is for pigs and poultry. Here's the link http://www.2easy.com.au/shop/article.php?article=2090&cat=1507 BTW, I am sure they do ship to USA, but that obviously wouldn't be your best option.

Here's an interesting article on levamisole, it's treatment and effects. It's from the University of Florida
http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/levamisole-hydrochloride-1

well i'm actualy from canada but i dunno how to change the flag on my info lol...
i'm gonna check the links thanksf or the info:)

[TankWatcher]

well i'm actualy from canada but i dunno how to change the flag on my info lol...
i'm gonna check the links thanksf or the info:)

I think you can change it in "Edit Profile"

[bigslick]

ahh i got it edit your info...