Flukes and Fry

[Mr Wild]

I have wrigglers at present and was wondering at what point can I treat for flukes so that I do not get a big die back that I have read about?

Obviously I thought it too early to do now but wondered when it might be safe?

[Eddie]

Hey Kath, no expert here but I'd wait and not treat until you have a reason. I know you probably dont want to hear it, but I'd wait and if you lose some to symptoms associated with flukes, then it may be necessary. :(

HTH

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

What type of symptoms would you expect on small fish? Like 2-3 weeks?

[Eddie]

What type of symptoms would you expect on small fish? Like 2-3 weeks?

Them dying, dropping like flies, zipping around the tank, spiraling around and laying on the tank floor. But this can also be attributed to poor water quality, high bio load. If you are on top of water changes and keeping everything clean and the fish are still dropping off, then I'd assume flukes.

As far as age, I use Carol's timeline. Once the wrigglers go free swimming, thats the date born.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=26679

HTH
Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Eddie

Yeah I use the same dateline as well. This is purely a theoretical question as mine have not gotten that old yet. Just wanted to be prepared and thought a pre emptive strike might have been handy when they neared the "death age".

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie

Yeah I use the same dateline as well. This is purely a theoretical question as mine have not gotten that old yet. Just wanted to be prepared and thought a pre emptive strike might have been handy when they neared the "death age".

Best of luck Kath!

Eddie

[Dutch dude]

Hi there.

As some of you might know I lost an awful lot of fry. Until a couple of weeks ago I thought it had to do with my skills (new into breeding) and not feeding enough bbs. I discovered the reason for the death fry was something diferent and labeled as "4 weeks syndrome". At the age of 3 to 4 weeks fry are suscepteble to protozoa. The symptoms are start to go dark, breathe heavily and sometimes go to the surface or into a corner and die. I lost over 60 fry to this illness. The reason should be that baby discus of 3 to 4 weeks are not immune to the mainly protozoan. Some claim if the fry are still with the parents at that age their immune system would be better developed and the 4 week syndrome doesn't make so many victims. On the other hand it takes a lot of the parents and might be to stressfull or couse to much demage.

The 4 week syndrome can make a lot off victims and you even may lose the entire batch (I lost 90% of one brood and 30% of an other). The fish that don't die have developed immunity to the protozoan.

Next time I will treat the fry tank when the fry are 3 weeks of age. I read a dosage of 1cc of acriflavine per 50 litre of water should be enough. Keep in mind that acriflavine will kill bacteria in your filter system as well.

Sometimes gill flukes are also a reason for the high losses but often the gasping for air makes people think it is gill flukes but it also fits the 4 week syndrome.

I know I will try the acriflavine next time.

Ruurd

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Ruurd

I will keep that in mind and get some acriflavine to have on hand.

Many thanks to Eddie and Ruurd for your advice and thoughts.

[Eddie]

Thanks Ruurd

I will keep that in mind and get some acriflavine to have on hand.

Many thanks to Eddie and Ruurd for your advice and thoughts.

Anytime Kath, take care

Eddie

[mmorris]

I think die-offs at four weeks are most commonly a result of bacterial infection because the water isn't clean enough. I used to lose a few at four weeks - never a die off - in spite of two 80% wc's a day in the 29 gal with their parents. Now I move the fry into a 55 gal. at three weeks.

[Dutch dude]

Martha,....If it would be bacteria related the acriflavine also solves that problem. Some people lose entire batches to the 4 week syndrome and some non.

In my case I kept 70 fry in a 50 gallon, pump driven sponge filter and 90% water change every day. I lost abouth 60 of those fry. The other group were in the same conditions (not the same tank) and abouth 60 fry and I lost abouth 20 of them. I did had to cull quit some fry becouse of a size diference (set back possibly coused by the 4 week syndrome).

Your welcome Kath and I can only share my expiriences so far. keep in mind I'm new to breeding discus.

[mmorris]

Martha,....If it would be bacteria related the acriflavine also solves that problem. Some people lose entire batches to the 4 week syndrome and some non.

In my case I kept 70 fry in a 50 gallon, pump driven sponge filter and 90% water change every day. I lost abouth 60 of those fry. The other group were in the same conditions (not the same tank) and abouth 60 fry and I lost abouth 20 of them. I did had to cull quit some fry becouse of a size diference (set back possibly coused by the 4 week syndrome).

Your welcome Kath and I can only share my expiriences so far. keep in mind I'm new to breeding discus.

I suspect it's the inexperienced who lose batches, or large parts of batches, rather than the experienced but I could be wrong. The trick is figure out what needs to be done differently.

[taekwondodo]

Martha,....If it would be bacteria related the acriflavine also solves that problem. Some people lose entire batches to the 4 week syndrome and some non.

In my case I kept 70 fry in a 50 gallon, pump driven sponge filter and 90% water change every day. I lost abouth 60 of those fry. The other group were in the same conditions (not the same tank) and abouth 60 fry and I lost abouth 20 of them. I did had to cull quit some fry becouse of a size diference (set back possibly coused by the 4 week syndrome).

Your welcome Kath and I can only share my expiriences so far. keep in mind I'm new to breeding discus.

IME (and it's been a while - been "out" for almost 10 years (Having kids took over my fishroom space ;) )) - It's the heavy water change that may be your problem. Test the water - If it's not overly high in NO3 (or NO2/NH3+), why are you changing it?

IME, Small discus are very sensitive to drastic changes in water conditions...

- Jeff

[mmorris]

IME (and it's been a while - been "out" for almost 10 years (Having kids took over my fishroom space ;) )) - It's the heavy water change that may be your problem. Test the water - If it's not overly high in NO3 (or NO2/NH3+), why are you changing it?

IME, Small discus are very sensitive to drastic changes in water conditions...

- Jeff

You make a good point, Jeff. The water being added must be the same ph and temp as the water removed. That said, heavy wc's are, IMO, imperative. Nitrates are only one of the contaminates but it gets a lot of attention because it is the one we can measure.

[kaceyo]

Heavy wc's are only a problem if the make up water isn't adjusted to the same specs as the tank water. When raising fry artificially I change 100% of the water a number of times during the day. These guys are just a day old to start and they handle it fine. The more the better, along with wiping down tank and equipment and cleaning filters daily.

Kacey

[Big Tuck]

Kacey you nailed it. Tuck

[Dutch dude]

My tapwater is stable and the PH hardly changes when aged. I started with 20% wc with fry of 1 week old (counted from free swimming) and raised it. I did 90% wc's on fry of 3 weeks and older. It isn't hard to notice the fish love the fresh water. Not changing water gives issues imo becouse of dirt build up and bacteria feeding on dead bbs. By the way,.....I change the water straight from the tap with the same temp as the water in the tanks.

Nice to get feedback on this but don't forget the O.P. :)

Kacey and Big Tuck,....have you witnessed the 4 weeks syndrome?

[Big Tuck]

Hi Dutch,yep im fighting it right now in 3 tanks (approx 800 fry)Loosing 8 to 15 a day.Ive tried everything i know with NO results.Just ordered some Acriflavine,but most will probably be gonners by the time i get it.Really ticks me off,because one spawn is from a pair of exceptional leopards iv been trying to get going for a long time.Seems like if its not one thing its another,just got to keep trying and not give up.Sure is testing my stamina. Tuck

[Dutch dude]

Sorry to hear of your losses Tuck. I know how it feels when you switch the lights on in the morning and find an other bunch of dead fry and not been able to do anything abouth it. For me it was the first and second spawn of 2 young pairs only 4 day's after each other. Luckely I managed to get enough fry for my own future breeding stock. Those are now doing great and have grown to 2 1/3 inch (TL) average in 11 weeks. Nice average growth if I'm informed well enough. Realy a pity I managed to only grow out 34 nice fry becouse I hoped to earn back some of the expenses I made. I see it as part of the learning process and next time I defenately add the acriflavine.

I like to know how things worked out for you.

Thanks for sharing your expiriences.

Ruurd

[Rod]

Hi Kath,

I like to treat for ectoparasites at about week 2 or 3. Potassium Permanganate at 2ppm, 3 days later treat with Trichlorfon at .8ppm. 3 days later repeat for an additional 2 doses of each chemical. This works well where 1 or 2 babies a day are dropping dead.

If you notice slimey looking fry huddling together and sticking to the back corners, then Nitrofurzone along with 1ppm salt. Repeat dose daily after a good tank clean. Metronidazole at 5ppm 3 days after the fry have recovered helps. This problem is likely to arise if you do not keep the tank really clean. I would also recomend treating the pair with a 10 day course of Nitrofurzone/ salt combo if you see this problem in the fry, before the next spawning attempt.

IMO these problems are transmitted from the parents, it is a good idea to remove the fry from the parents as soon as possible to reduce infection pressure.

Keep water slightly acidic (6 to 7 ph) and 28c during treatments.

Rod:)

[Big Tuck]

Hi Rod,do you think PP would work at this late date.If so how much by volume per gallon.I use PP exclusivly for flukes,i dr. by the color of the water,a med. purple works great.Ill try anything at this point. Tuck

[kaceyo]

My tapwater is stable and the PH hardly changes when aged. I started with 20% wc with fry of 1 week old (counted from free swimming) and raised it. I did 90% wc's on fry of 3 weeks and older. It isn't hard to notice the fish love the fresh water. Not changing water gives issues imo becouse of dirt build up and bacteria feeding on dead bbs. By the way,.....I change the water straight from the tap with the same temp as the water in the tanks.

Nice to get feedback on this but don't forget the O.P. :)

Kacey and Big Tuck,....have you witnessed the 4 weeks syndrome?

I havn't noticed anything consistantly at 4 weeks. More like you have to be particularly careful about keeping water and equipment as clean as possible for the first 4 to five weeks as your more likely to have problems during this period. It's usually fluke type symptoms, though may not be flukes, or bloating in the first couple of weeks, With harder to diagnose, or Mystery problems later on. For me, formalin or acryflavin will take care of most of the problems while occasionaly you need antibiotics to pull them out of it.

Kacey

[Rod]

Hi Rod,do you think PP would work at this late date.If so how much by volume per gallon.I use PP exclusivly for flukes,i dr. by the color of the water,a med. purple works great.Ill try anything at this point. Tuck

Hi Tuck, I use pp at 2mg per liter. The purple color should last for at least 15 minutes, if it is not lasting that long then the pp is being oxidized by waste and may not be effective. In this case increase w/c. What i like to do before pp treatment is drain tank 90%, then while syphon is still sucking water, turn on your water pump from the water processing tank and keep sucking/filling until the water is crystal and perfect. If you use any anti clor products, then wait an hour or so before pp treatment to avoid a reaction pp has with conditioners. Try triclorfon mate, discus are very very tolerant of this chem. Mind you it will wipe out many non discus at the dose rate i recomended, so use with caution on other species.

Rod

[Big Tuck]

Thanks Rod ill see if i can locate some here in Ca. Tuck

[Dutch dude]

wow:shocked2: I'm realy surprised you guys use all those meds to keep the fry alive (especialy Rod). I wonder how healthy those fry will be if they still need antibiotics to pull through and how that will effect their health long term. In other words,....aren't those just weak fry?

Now abouth cleaning,......I do the water changes but I find it dificult to vacume the tanks with all those tiny fry around. How do you guy's do that? I tried air hose but it is still easy to drain fry along the process.

[Rod]

wow:shocked2: I'm realy surprised you guys use all those meds to keep the fry alive (especialy Rod). I wonder how healthy those fry will be if they still need antibiotics to pull through and how that will effect their health long term. In other words,....aren't those just weak fry?

Now abouth cleaning,......I do the water changes but I find it dificult to vacume the tanks with all those tiny fry around. How do you guy's do that? I tried air hose but it is still easy to drain fry along the process.

You misunderstand my post, i did not say i use antibiotics to cure that slime disease in my fish room, that is what i recomend to my discus friends who are having that problem. I am often consulted for my knowledge from local breeders, and i see that problem from time to time and have found that treatment to be effective in some cases. I am simply passing on my experience.

Regarding the pp, triclorfon treatment. That is standard practice for all new fry in my room. Many parasites eggs are resistent to treatment. Treating for parasites is all about control, the total elimination of parasites still eludes me.

You will learn to herd the fry. Discus fry respond instinctively to your actions. In time you learn to manipulate that instinct and can syphon without fear of sucking a fry. You must have a lot of free time on your hands to use airline syphon :D

Rod:)

[Dutch dude]

Hey Rod,

Yes I indeed misunderstood the treatment with antibiotics. Still your other routine treatment surprises me. Maybe thats becouse I don't know how the professionals breed their discus. Thanks for sharing this with us and maybe this info lead to lower mortality rates among fry of hobby breeders. I will first try the acriflavine and go from there. I'm the type of guy who isn't to fond on using meds ;)

During cleaning I notised the fry become curious at my hands. Fast movements backs them of but maybe I'm just to scared to vacume the small fry. After a couple of day's free swimming they are much more close to mom and dad.


You must have a lot of free time on your hands to use airline syphon


Well I don't. So what I did was quickly vacume the big poo chunks from mom and dad and dead bbs by air hose and taking out the larger quanteties of water with the normal hose extracted from the filter compartment. No risks on syphon fry. :) Only problem is that there was still to much dirt on the tank floor. I'll try to heard the fry next time. But eeeh,.....how should I do that,...can you reveal some tricks? :D

[Rod]

tricks hmmmmm, ok. Try gently chasing the fry with your syphon (before you get the suction going), they will run to the pair for protection. The parents will be used to your actions and won't be too bothered by you in most cases. Some pairs though can attack the syphon, or even attack you, but after a short while they will herd the fry and keep them close.
Keep your glass wiped clean, especially the bottom. The filter causes water movement which will tend to make the waste products accumulate in one general area of the tank, therefore making removal much easier. With clean glass the detritus slides more easily into a neat pile.

HTH

Rod

[MostlyDiscus]

Good stuff Rod. Clean tanks to start with are important. I find that overfeeding is the biggest problem. Overfeeding brings down the water quality and burdens the babies digestive systems.

Ed

[mmorris]

Don't know about their digestive system. Uneaten food pollutes really quickly.

[Mr Wild]

Wow, I was offline for a day amd boy check out this thread!!! I am thrilled to have so much information and advice!

Don't know where to start...OK I have fry attaching to Mum and Dad...can you see them in the picture? Yeah I know its hard they are tiny but I am soooooo excited!:p

So I should still wc - ok I can handle that I guess I can wipe down the glass too - carefully! So this is Day 1 - anything else I should be doing now?

Rod I have printed out your instructions but I might send a pm of thats ok.

[Eddie]

Nice Kath, thats great news! Them 2 buggers are naturals.

All the best!

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Nice Kath, thats great news! Them 2 buggers are naturals.

All the best!

Eddie

Thanks Eddie

Gosh they are so good ATM very attentive! I am jumping out if my skin with happiness they are sooooo beautiful, I am truly blessed.

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie

Gosh they are so good ATM very attentive! I am jumping out if my skin with happiness they are sooooo beautiful, I am truly blessed.

I am very happy for you too, its like no other experience IMO!

Eddie

[mmorris]

Congratulations Kath! Keep up with the wc's and read, read, read! :)

[MostlyDiscus]

Congratulations Kath,


If you dont feed them then there is no reason to change the water. Are the parents and fry by themselves?

Ed

[blueeyes]

Regarding syphon and fry i remember an article years ago and if i remember correctly,the guy used a disposable bic razor with the blade removed and the tube inserted,think it was in the handle?

[Mr Wild]

Congratulations Kath! Keep up with the wc's and read, read, read! :)

Thanks Martha will do!


Congratulations Kath,


If you dont feed them then there is no reason to change the water. Are the parents and fry by themselves?

Ed

Perhaps I should have read this sooner, after their wc today I cleaned all the sides and bottom with some filter foam and since then Dad looks to be eating the fry. I have come home to only 6 fry in the tank and Dad on the hunt.

Perhaps I should just leave them alone until they are firmly on their backs?
I have done wc each day even through hatching and that never worried them but I have not cleaned down the glass at all I think that is what did it - got too close.


Regarding syphon and fry i remember an article years ago and if i remember correctly,the guy used a disposable bic razor with the blade removed and the tube inserted,think it was in the handle?

That would be a little home jobby, could even work!

Too sad to try now though will have to wait for the next batch.

Ahhhhh:(

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear Kath...:( From the sounds of them 2 you got, they will be at it again in no time. All the best of luck on the next round!

Eddie

[Scribbles]

Sorry to hear about the lost fry Kath. They are a beautiful pair. Best of luck with the next spawn.

Chris

[Mr Wild]

Sorry to hear Kath...:( From the sounds of them 2 you got, they will be at it again in no time. All the best of luck on the next round!

Eddie

Thanks Eddie, the ball is in your court now mate! I was thinking of pulling the male and letting the female raise the 6 she had left but honestly I thought it better for them to have another spawn and I will see what I do next.


Sorry to hear about the lost fry Kath. They are a beautiful pair. Best of luck with the next spawn.

Chris

Thanks Chris
Yes they are a beautiful pair now I just need to get them through this hurdle, I usually use a scourer on the end of a handle type cleaner but this time I thought the pad would give a better clean, maybe he didn''t like that!

I have learnt see what happens next!
Thank you both for your kind words of encouragement, it is always nice to hear when you are a bit down it picks you up. Many thanks!:)

[Mr Wild]

I can count about 20 fry around the place near Mum and Dad and some not so close, I will leave them alone and see where this takes us....mmmmmmm there's that word again ...patience!

[Dutch dude]

Congrats Kath!!! :thumbsup:

Sounds familiar with dad "eating" wigglers. I have seen something similar in one of the first spawns that made it to wigglers. Dad picked up a whole bunch of fry and it looked like he ate them. Later on I discovered he didn't and just collected them and kept them in his mouth. Sometimes it took over 5 minutes for him to spit them out. I think they also clean the fry in the mouth.

When the fry become free swimming they can be all over the tank. My tanks do have black silicone and they are attracted to it. If the tiny creatures are on the silicone they are very hard to detect. So you might have more fry as you expected.

By the way,....I have a bunch of fry as well with one of my pairs. Most of them just became free swimming. I have know idea how many fry I have but I estimate somewhere around 40 to 50,....a small spawn. I turned the filter of and tomorrow when all fry are attached to mom and dad I will put the sponge filter back on with a very low flow (only to get some minor surface agitation). I lowered the water height to 9 inch and half of the fry are already attached to mom and dad.

I want to thank everyone for the all the info on medication and cleaning and special thanks to Kayce and Rod. Hopefully I become good at herding fry ;)and I get the chance to raise this batch and deal with the 4 week syndrome.

[kaceyo]

Hi Kathy,
I do daily wc's throughout the entire spawning process w/out problems (usually). Cleaning the sides may have triggered the fry eating or it may have happened anyways. If you know Dad is the culprit you might want to remove him. If this spawn doesn't work out, you're definitley moving in the right direction so next one will go better. We learn something about breeding and about the particular pair every time they try.

Dutch Dude,
Glad to be of help. Sounds like things are going well for you now.

Kacey

[Dutch dude]

Kacey,....yes things look good right now. Two posebileties for that,.....smaller (10% to 15%) every day during egg and wiggler stage in stead of 50% to 70% wc. The second reason might be a worm and paresite treatment I finished a week ago. I suspect the wc's during egg and wiggler stage to make the diference.

Breeding can be frustrating when you have eggs or wigglers every week and loos them just before or during free swimming. I hope I get the chance to test out the acriflavine ;)

Ruurd

[kaceyo]

You don't have to tell me how frustrating it can be. Believe me, I've been there, LOL!!!
You'll have young juvies in no time.

Kacey

[Mr Wild]

Congrats Kath!!! :thumbsup:

Sounds familiar with dad "eating" wigglers. I have seen something similar in one of the first spawns that made it to wigglers. Dad picked up a whole bunch of fry and it looked like he ate them. Later on I discovered he didn't and just collected them and kept them in his mouth. Sometimes it took over 5 minutes for him to spit them out. I think they also clean the fry in the mouth.

When the fry become free swimming they can be all over the tank. My tanks do have black silicone and they are attracted to it. If the tiny creatures are on the silicone they are very hard to detect. So you might have more fry as you expected.

By the way,....I have a bunch of fry as well with one of my pairs. Most of them just became free swimming. I have know idea how many fry I have but I estimate somewhere around 40 to 50,....a small spawn. I turned the filter of and tomorrow when all fry are attached to mom and dad I will put the sponge filter back on with a very low flow (only to get some minor surface agitation). I lowered the water height to 9 inch and half of the fry are already attached to mom and dad.

I want to thank everyone for the all the info on medication and cleaning and special thanks to Kayce and Rod. Hopefully I become good at herding fry ;)and I get the chance to raise this batch and deal with the 4 week syndrome.

Thanks for your support Ruurd great to hear you have some too, hope they behave for you!


Hi Kathy,
I do daily wc's throughout the entire spawning process w/out problems (usually). Cleaning the sides may have triggered the fry eating or it may have happened anyways. If you know Dad is the culprit you might want to remove him. If this spawn doesn't work out, you're definitley moving in the right direction so next one will go better. We learn something about breeding and about the particular pair every time they try.

Dutch Dude,
Glad to be of help. Sounds like things are going well for you now.

Kacey

Kacey

I am doing wc's everyday about 10% twice a day and using a low flow when I refill, I will try doing the sides etc again this afternoon and I will use the stick sponge thingy that they should be used to and see how that goes.
I am more relaxed with this one taking it as you say if not this time then next time, this is as far as they have gotten so far so we will see.
Thanks for the support and advice it really does help!

[kaceyo]

Any time Kath. That's how it usually goes, a little step forward each time.

Kacey

[scottthomas]

This is a great thread. I need to re read it again. I have 3 tanks with fry. In one tank I lose one to three fry a day and I cant figure it out. The other two tanks no problems. The fry start breathing hard at about 4 weeks old. (this is the second batch that this is happening to) Some of them seem a little bloated. I assumed there were gill flukes in this tank and I have been careful to not cross contaminate. However, I see now I might be wrong. I know it is almost impossible to completely rids of some flukes. One other thing I notice is that the largest healthiest looking fry are the first ones to die off. I clean all the tank (29 gal) daily with about 90% wc. Am I wrong? It seems if the die offs are in just one tank then it is probably some parasite problem? Should I do the pp treatment? or try to clean up the parents before next spawn?

[mmorris]

How big are the tanks? How large are the spawns? I do two and sometimes (although not as often) three 80% wc's on 3 week-old fry in a 29 gal before I move them to a 55. Certainly clean up the parents.

[Mr Wild]

Well no live fry left, they were dead on the bottom of the tank, is it because the bottom is not painted? You know they see the mirror image of mum and dad on the bottom ? Sounds weird I know but hey I have to try and think of everything!

I have placed them in a fully painted tank now, bare bottom, sponge filter and cone, totally devoid of plants and driftwood, it seems so sterile but if that is what I have to do to get fry then so be it!

Onwards we go!!!!!!!!

[Eddie]

I'm sorry Kath, not sure about the reflection thing. I'd love to see the new love motel!

Take care and them 2 should be laying again shortly!

Eddie

[kaceyo]

That's too bad Kath, but it's OK. Now you can try to get a bigger batch going. Sometimes parents won't raise a spawn if there aren't enough fry in it.
Were there any signs of damage on the fry or symptoms of a problem?

Kacey

[Scribbles]

Sorry to hear that you lost the fry Kath. Maybe the new tank will help. My fingers are crossed.

Chris

[Mr Wild]

That's too bad Kath, but it's OK. Now you can try to get a bigger batch going. Sometimes parents won't raise a spawn if there aren't enough fry in it.
Were there any signs of damage on the fry or symptoms of a problem?

Kacey

Hi Kacey
Not that I could see all looked fine but they are so small it is a wonder they ever grow as big as they do!


I'm sorry Kath, not sure about the reflection thing. I'd love to see the new love motel!

Take care and them 2 should be laying again shortly!

Eddie

Thansk Eddie

My yellow pidgeon blood (the one you said I should get judged as it is so clean) and a golden laid today we will see if that brings anything.


Sorry to hear that you lost the fry Kath. Maybe the new tank will help. My fingers are crossed.

Chris

Chris, thanks for your kind words, I have just about painted all my tanks on 3 sides and the bottom so we will see if that makes any difference at all, there will at least be no disturbance!.

[Eddie]

Nice Kath, egg laying extravaganza at yours!!!

Good luck with them!

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Nice Kath, egg laying extravaganza at yours!!!

Good luck with them!

Eddie

Plenty laying just no one got it down so far but they are all young fish, mature but still learning!

Ahh its great init?

[Eddie]

Plenty laying just no one got it down so far but they are all young fish, mature but still learning!

Ahh its great init?

Definitely!

They'll get it down, some faster than others for sure. Practice makes perfect most definitely.

All the best,

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

This pair eats the eggs!

Oh well try try again!

[Eddie]

This pair eats the eggs!

Oh well try try again!

Oh Kath, they'll get it right soon enough. ;) Still wishing you luck with your egg layers!

Take care,

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Eddie!

[TankWatcher]

Eventually, one of your pairs is bound to get it right. Practise makes perfect !

[Mr Wild]

LOL yes Robyn one of them has to come through for me!
Thanks for popping in!


:D:D

[MostlyDiscus]

Hi Miss Kathy, I really do admire when someone jumps in completly untill they get it right. As Kacey so aptley said, one small step forward. I really believe the parents can see the fry better than we can. MHO but they have a tendency to eat fry that are not completly developed or eat fry due to poor eyesight. The first reason is the one that can be fixed trough water management. Have you used PP before? If so then try doing a big cleaning, I mean think of everything that touches the water. Do a WC. Do your PP treatment, light solution for 4hrs. Do another big WC. Try to time this within 24hrs before spawning. Feed heavy before your treatment with live food if you can find it. Do not feed after PP treatment. Hope this works.



Ed

[kaceyo]

Don't be dissappointed Kath. It's very unusual for a new pair to get everything right within the first few spawns. They'll do better next time.

kacey

[TankWatcher]

LOL yes Robyn one of them has to come through for me!
Thanks for popping in!I've been mainly a silent watcher, since I don't have any practical advice to give. But my fingers are crossed & I am looking forward to reading of success. There's a thread on that other forum we both occasionally visit. It was a very comprehensive, a bit like a day to day diary process of an Aussie guy raising his fry. He does mention treatments he gave for gill flukes. If you can find it, it might help. If you need help finding, let me know & I'll try to find a link.

[Mr Wild]

Hi Miss Kathy, I really do admire when someone jumps in completly untill they get it right. As Kacey so aptley said, one small step forward. I really believe the parents can see the fry better than we can. MHO but they have a tendency to eat fry that are not completly developed or eat fry due to poor eyesight. The first reason is the one that can be fixed trough water management. Have you used PP before? If so then try doing a big cleaning, I mean think of everything that touches the water. Do a WC. Do your PP treatment, light solution for 4hrs. Do another big WC. Try to time this within 24hrs before spawning. Feed heavy before your treatment with live food if you can find it. Do not feed after PP treatment. Hope this works.



Ed

Hi Ed

Oh wow I cannot tell you how happy I am to jump on and see the people willing to help me through this. I have come along way it was only this time last year that I started in Discus keeping and had a run of terrible deaths, Chad and Eddie and others got me through those and since then I have gained so much knowledge from this forum and others and of course I bought myself about 1/2 doz books to read too!

They are so magnificent a creature we are truly blessed to be able to keep them and so for me having successful spawns will just be MAGIC!

Re PP yes I have used as a short strong bath, not as you say but I am sure I can. Do you mean to leave the fish in there too for 4 hours? Just want to be very clear and of course I will be here the whole time!
I can get live black-worms so before feeding will be fine..afterwards how long to I withhold food?

Thanks so much for chiming in to help, I really do appreciate it.


Don't be dissappointed Kath. It's very unusual for a new pair to get everything right within the first few spawns. They'll do better next time.

kacey

Kacey, hi again!
I am getting pretty happy actually that they seem to do a little better each time, I am a very proud Mum! LOL


I've been mainly a silent watcher, since I don't have any practical advice to give. But my fingers are crossed & I am looking forward to reading of success. There's a thread on that other forum we both occasionally visit. It was a very comprehensive, a bit like a day to day diary process of an Aussie guy raising his fry. He does mention treatments he gave for gill flukes. If you can find it, it might help. If you need help finding, let me know & I'll try to find a link.

Thanks Robyn
I will have a look for it, Thanks for the good wishes I would love to raise a huge tank full ! LOL That would be just awesome!

[MostlyDiscus]

I would say that sounds great. Make sure your PP treatment is a pink solution and not purple. Purple will burn gills and skin. CBWs or other type worms are fine to use. Any external pathogens introduced by them should be kept in check with your PP treatment. If the parents dont breed right after the first PP treatment then you can do another PP treatment within 2 days. The biggest problem with hatch rate and deformities IMO is bactiera or fungus spores in the water. Thus less feeding after the treatments should help your chances. GLGD


Ed

P.S. 3 to 4 hour bath in light pink solution is fine. Just watch your discus for signs stress, ie going to the surface to breath.

[Mr Wild]

I would say that sounds great. Make sure your PP treatment is a pink solution and not purple. Purple will burn gills and skin. CBWs or other type worms are fine to use. Any external pathogens introduced by them should be kept in check with your PP treatment. If the parents dont breed right after the first PP treatment then you can do another PP treatment within 2 days. The biggest problem with hatch rate and deformities IMO is bactiera or fungus spores in the water. Thus less feeding after the treatments should help your chances. GLGD


Ed

P.S. 3 to 4 hour bath in light pink solution is fine. Just watch your discus for signs stress, ie going to the surface to breath.

Thanks Ed
Will follow your instructions to the "T". Many thanks will see how I go and update here of course!

[mmorris]

When using PP it is important to note that there is quite a fine line between a therapeutic level and a level that causes injury to the fish. Not enough and you are wasting your time. Too much and...:( I highly recommend you weigh out the pp to get a 2 ppm solution - 2mg per liter. This is a link to the best set of instructions I know of:
http://www.bidka.org/pp1.shtml

[MostlyDiscus]

I totally agree with Martha here. Thx Double "M" for chipping in:)

[kaceyo]

Absolutely. PP should always be weighed, checked and double checked. You can get a digital scale online for $20 +/-.

Kacey

[mmorris]

Thx Double "M" :)

LOL :D

[Mr Wild]

When using PP it is important to note that there is quite a fine line between a therapeutic level and a level that causes injury to the fish. Not enough and you are wasting your time. Too much and...:( I highly recommend you weigh out the pp to get a 2 ppm solution - 2mg per liter. This is a link to the best set of instructions I know of:
http://www.bidka.org/pp1.shtml

Ok thank you will do waiting for the pecking to start before I dose to try and get them just before a spawn!


I totally agree with Martha here. Thx Double "M" for chipping in:)

Sounds like a Maxwell Smart / agent 99 type of name eh Martha?


Absolutely. PP should always be weighed, checked and double checked. You can get a digital scale online for $20 +/-.

Kacey

Thanks Kacey I have digital kitchen scales that will measure that for me - old weight watchers scales - should put them to use! LOL

[mmorris]

Sounds like a Maxwell Smart / agent 99 type of name eh Martha?



Thanks Kacey I have digital kitchen scales that will measure that for me - old weight watchers scales - should put them to use! LOL

So long as it doesn't become M&M! :bounce: My scales weigh tenths of a gram but I wish I had purchased one that weighs hundredth of a gram.

[kaceyo]

So long as it doesn't become M&M! :bounce: My scales weigh tenths of a gram but I wish I had purchased one that weighs hundredth of a gram.

Me too! At the time I was sure tenths would be more than enough. Little did I know!

Kacey

[TankWatcher]

I got my digital scales at Big W.

[Mr Wild]

mmm might be getting closer! seeing some pecking not much though and only one of them he's trying to entice her!

[scottthomas]

So much great sounding advice here that I'm not sure what to do. lol. I am also a frustrated hobbiest breeder who is experiencing die offs at 4 1/2 weeks now free swimming. I have been losing 1-4 a day from a group of about 70. Often it is the largest of the fry that perish. Symptoms include, hudling in a corner, becoming darker and bars, fast breathing with gills really flaring, and laying on thier sides for moments. I am about to give up on this group as many of the best have died and I feel they are not growing well now. About half looked stressed. I tried putting them in a 100 gal tank since I am only home to do wc once a day. (I have help feeding bbs, flake, bh, bw all chopped 5x day) I am running to sponge filters and fill the tank only 50 gals full. I clean the bottom and sides daily w/ 90%wc. (aged treated heated airated) I have not been cleaning the sponges daily.

I have two ther 29 gals that have about 50 fry that are 3wks still with parents and I'm not even using a sponge filter, just 90%wc morning and 90% evening. I have no deaths there and faster groeth. What you think I should do or what causing my die offs.

Sorry so long post. thanks for the help

[scottthomas]

Also, someone was claiming that "4 week syndrome" was the result of protazo infections and that some fish develop an immunity to prot0zoans? Can fish build an immunity to Protozoan? I didnt think that was possible but then again I am no scientist but ratgher an historian.:)

[MostlyDiscus]

Hi Scott,

I cant tell you for sure but I will tell you what I did:). I had 120 or so dime sized BDs. Like you I started loosing a couple a day and same symptoms. I cut out all food for 2 days. Hit them with epsom salts and raised the temp to 89 AFTER the first day of fasting. The key I think is to let the food run through theirsystem I wont get into the reasoning behind this for fear of self incrimination. I am not a scientist, historian or an english teacher.
Ed

[kaceyo]

Hi Scott,
If they seem bloated at all try adding Epsom salt at 1 tbs/10gals for 24hrs. If not, or if the Epsom salt doesn't work, treat with formalin or Quick Cure. They will take care of most external parasites. In most cases this will be all you need, but occasionaly neither works and you need to go with something with more antibacterial properties like acryflavin.

Kacey

[scottthomas]

Thanks,
I just did a major complete cleaning and filled the 100 gal with clean water. (probably overkill changing 90 gals a day but I will try that and add salt too). I had 3 -4" juvies that were head standers with bloated stomachs a few weeks ago and epsom salt helped them pass no problems. I didnt think about that with fry. If that doesnt work I have some Quick Cure I will try. There are about 40 left so this is their last chance as parents already have about 100 wrigglers in another tank.

[mmorris]

I don't ever recommend withholding food from fry for any reason. As I understand it problems at four weeks are either water quality, bacteria (often, if not normally, associated with water quality) or external parasites. If you are absolutely certain your water is really clean then I would dose 1 drop acriflavin per gallon of water. Treat for a week. If it doesn't make any difference in a few days then I would use pp for likely gill flukes. I don't think Quick Cure does much of anything for gill flukes.

[scottthomas]

Thanks, I am a little nervous about using pp But maybe I will experiment on some of my less valuable fish first.

[Eddie]

Thanks, I am a little nervous about using pp But maybe I will experiment on some of my less valuable fish first.

Scott, although PP can be effective on many external issues, there are better chemicals than PP for flukes. The concentration of PP needed to kill flukes is higher than what the fish should be exposed to. I can get you documentation on this in the morning, as tonight I'm at the job. PP is good for alot things, dont get me wrong. ;) Many fluke treatments include PP but not as a first choice. If you have not used it before, its definitely not something to try out on your own.

In fact, the following reference suggests Formalin as being the better choice:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA033

Eddie

[scottthomas]

Thanks Eddie. I was wondering though if pp was a good idea to clean up my breeder tanks before the next spawn. I have so many fry I need more tanks. However, I would rather not use pp if there is a safer way. My adults seems healthy and show no signs of flukes. I do have a microscope but havent used it to examine parasites etc. in my tanks. All my fish adult seem very healthy, just trying to figure out the deal with fry deaths. I did try acryflavine in one tank to see if it makes a difference. I was at the point of giving up on this batch anyway so no harm I guess.

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie. I was wondering though if pp was a good idea to clean up my breeder tanks before the next spawn. I have so many fry I need more tanks. However, I would rather not use pp if there is a safer way. My adults seems healthy and show no signs of flukes. I do have a microscope but havent used it to examine parasites etc. in my tanks. All my fish adult seem very healthy, just trying to figure out the deal with fry deaths. I did try acryflavine in one tank to see if it makes a difference. I was at the point of giving up on this batch anyway so no harm I guess.

I hear you Scott. The problem with healthy Adult fish and flukes is that you never really know if they are present without doing a scrape/scope. One very good method is treating the Adult fish for flukes and then immediately moving them to a tank that has been cleaned/sterilized/aired out well. The filter new or newly cycled as to not house any fluke eggs that may hatch out later.

You may check with some of the regular breeders and try their methods on fry. For me, I have yet to encounter this situation due to just now having fry that dont get eaten up! LOL But I will be using J. Quarles method of 1 drop of formalin per gallon and 2 drops of Malachite Green per gallon. Pretty much just Quick Cure but I am sure the concentration may be different. Complete 100% WC with total wipedowns every day and cleaning/rinsing out the sponge every day. Although I cannot say this method works on entire batches of fry, its worked for my 2 baby Albino fry. :o

Good luck my friend and hope you get it worked out!

Eddie

[mmorris]

For me, I have yet to encounter this situation

Flukes are flukes. It doesn't matter if they are living on adults or on fry. Quick Cure does essentially nothing against flukes. Prazi Pro, at double dose, for 21 days, may knock the flukes back a bit but it does not eradicate them and so the flukes return. Same with repeated doses with Fluke tabs and Prazi powder. None are completely effective. PP seems to be the best I have found to date but it entails repeated doses. I recommend if people are losing fry, as so often happens, get a microscope if you don't already have one, sacrifice a living fry and scope the body mucus and the gills.. At least then you'll know. Don't buy a cheapo 'scope. :o

[Eddie]

Flukes are flukes. It doesn't matter if they are living on adults or on fry. Quick Cure does essentially nothing against flukes. Prazi Pro, at double dose, for 21 days, may knock the flukes back a bit but it does not eradicate them and so the flukes return. Same with repeated doses with Fluke tabs and Prazi powder. None are effective. PP seems to be the best I have found to date but it entails repeated doses. I recommend if people are losing fry, as so often happens, get a microscope if you don't already have one, sacrifice a living fry and scope the body mucus and the gills.. At least then you'll know. Don't buy a cheapo 'scope. :o

Thats great Martha, I was actually talking to Scott but yes, Formalin is better at treating flukes as outlined in the reference posted. You can argue with most but not with aquatic veterinarians. Keep up the good work! ;)

Eddie

[mmorris]

Thats great Martha, I was actually talking to Scott but yes, Formalin is better at treating flukes as outlined in the reference posted. You can argue with most but not with aquatic veterinarians. Keep up the good work! ;)

Eddie

Personal experience and a microscope has made it perfectly clear to me that QC, two days on, one day off for four cycles, is not sufficiently effective against flukes to do more than knock them back for a bit.

[Eddie]

Personal experience and a microscope has made it perfectly clear to me that QC, two days on, one day off for four cycles, is not sufficiently effective against flukes to do more than knock them back for a bit.

Darn, that sucks. Might check the date on your QC. Also, formalin alone is what is prescribed in the link above. Not F&MG.

PP is nothing new and I am pretty sure if it was the surefire treatment for fluke in fish fry, it would be well documented. Or maybe there is a secret following that only certain people know about. ;)

Eddie

[mmorris]

Might check the date on your QC.
LOL Eddie. Funny guy.
You might want to re-read the article you posted the link to re. PP. ;)

[Eddie]

LOL Eddie. Funny guy.
You might want to re-read the article you posted the link to re. PP. ;)

Have many times, Formalin is the choice, PP comes.....second.

Also, may need to practice on your scrapes.

This one is my favorite:

http://books.google.com/books?id=SAdDtT7YRRoC&pg=PA88&dq=best+fluke+treatment+fish&lr=#v=onepage&q=best%20fluke%20treatment%20fish&f=false

Eddie

[mmorris]

When you reference an article or book you should always check the publication date. This one is 13 years old! Why on earth did you say I need to practice on my scrapes? I don't understand.

[Eddie]

When you reference an article or book you should always check the publication date. This one is 13 years old! Why on earth did you say I need to practice on my scrapes? I don't understand.

Thats right, and all still pertinent. ;) Many of today's experts reference to Noga. ;)

[mmorris]

Why do you think I need to practice on my scrapes?

[Mr Wild]

mmmmmm well I think I am glad I started the thread..............

[mmorris]

mmmmmm well I think I am glad I started the thread..............

LOL Kath :D

[Eddie]

Why do you think I need to practice on my scrapes?


Personal experience and a microscope has made it perfectly clear to me that QC, two days on, one day off for four cycles, is not sufficiently effective against flukes to do more than knock them back for a bit.

Regardless of your argument Martha, PP may be effective for you but it is not the first choice in Fluke treatment. It may be for you and that is great. ;)

Eddie

[mmorris]

Regardless of your argument Martha, PP may be effective for you but it is not the first choice in Fluke treatment. It may be for you and that is great. ;)

Eddie

Well, Eddie, hopefully one day you will be able to speak from experience. :D

[Eddie]

Well, Eddie, hopefully one day you will be able to speak from experience. :D

Me too, hopefully I wont have to wait THAT long. ;)

Eddie

[mmorris]

LOL Then we'll talk.

[Eddie]

LOL Then we'll talk.

Definitely!

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

Hi Kath, Please let me know when the next spawn comes... Thx

Ed

[Mr Wild]

Hi Kath, Please let me know when the next spawn comes... Thx

Ed

Ed
Just want to clarify re the PP treatment. My tank has 176 litres at 2ppm does that mean a dose of 176x2? That would be 352mg or .352g - is that correct?

Please confirm, I will not do anything until I hear from you.

[frenchie100]

Since it is the middle of the night for Ed, I did the math and yes you are right.

1ppm=1mg/L

so 2ppm for 176L would be 352mg.

Good luck,

Julie :)

[Mr Wild]

Since it is the middle of the night for Ed, I did the math and yes you are right.

1ppm=1mg/L

so 2ppm for 176L would be 352mg.

Good luck,

Julie :)

Thanks so much Julie!~ Didn't want any overdose happening!

Cheers!

[TankWatcher]

Hi Kath,

I like to use the information on this thread to make up a PP stock solution.
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14585
The stock solution is then used to dose the tank.

[Mr Wild]

Hi Kath,

I like to use the information on this thread to make up a PP stock solution.
http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14585
The stock solution is then used to dose the tank.

Thanks Robyn but I actually made up the BIDKA solution in post #70 of this thread:

Volumes Measured in Litres

1.Take a clean plastic bottle that holds 1 litre (1,000ml) such as a cola or lemonade bottle.
2.Weigh out 20 grams of PP.
3.Add this PP to the bottle, using a dry funnel or a funnel made from paper may help.
4.Half fill with fairly hot water.
5.Put the top on and close firmly.
6.Shake vigorously until all the PP crystals have dissolved.
7.Carefully open the bottle and top off to the 1 litre mark with cold water.
8.Close the bottle and store in a cool dark place away from children.
Dosing:
1 drop of this stock solution will give 1mg/litre or 1ppm dose rate.
2 drops of this stock solution will give 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.
3 drops of this stock solution will give 3mg/litre or 3ppm dose rate.
4 drops of this stock solution will give 4mg/litre or 4ppm dose rate.
20 drops is equivalent to 1 millilitre of stock solution and will treat 10 litres at 2mg/litre or 2ppm dose rate.


I will do tomorrow morning after I come home from town I will be here then for the day and will be able to watch the fish and clean up etc

[TankWatcher]

Good, as long as you have a recipie for a stock solution, as that makes accurate dosing easier. Also it's good that you will do it when you are home, as the fish should be observed when they are in PP. Good luck.

[Mr Wild]

Ok as fish were showing signs of spawning and I have been feeding them up big I have done the PP today at 2ppm as advised.

They have been in 1/2hour so far, no signs of stress and water still nice and pink...I think we have success!

YAY for me!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D

[MostlyDiscus]

Cheers Kath,

Your formula sounds fine to me. I am doing at PP treatment atm as well. light pink solution for 4 hrs. Check every 15 minutes or so to make sure water stays pink. Some will moan and groan about how I treat with PP so I wont get into how I measure or what my formula is. When first using PP you should have a starting point though.
Intresting that my PH dropped down to 5.5 and 4 pairs spawned right away. All the parents ate the eggs though. Im fine with that due to the fact that I had not cleaned the water in a while and I feel that most parents eat the eggs because the eggs are dead. Bactiera,fungus maybe little critters. Point is that if you do a PP treatment you relieve most of the infection pressure. The cleaner the water the larger the hatch provided ph and tds are in line. Let me know whats up.

Ed

[Eddie]

Cheers Kath,

Your formula sounds fine to me. I am doing at PP treatment atm as well. light pink solution for 4 hrs. Check every 15 minutes or so to make sure water stays pink. Some will moan and groan about how I treat with PP so I wont get into how I measure or what my formula is. When first using PP you should have a starting point though.
Intresting that my PH dropped down to 5.5 and 4 pairs spawned right away. All the parents ate the eggs though. Im fine with that due to the fact that I had not cleaned the water in a while and I feel that most parents eat the eggs because the eggs are dead. Bactiera,fungus maybe little critters. Point is that if you do a PP treatment you relieve most of the infection pressure. The cleaner the water the larger the hatch provided ph and tds are in line. Let me know whats up.

Ed

Dont worry Ed, I bet even you would frown on how I use PP!

Take care,

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

No Eddie,


I rather like the fact that you are willing to try different things instead of following the herd. Too many people say you cant do this or dont do that. I have raised 10s of thousands of discus. There is no one right way to do things. You my friend, have learned alot. Andrews the man right?
ok maybe not 10s of thousands, but many discus. more than I ever counted anywho

Ed

[Eddie]

No Eddie,


I rather like the fact that you are willing to try different things instead of following the herd. Too many people say you cant do this or dont do that. I have raised 10s of thousands of discus. There is no one right way to do things. You my friend, have learned alot. Andrews the man right?
ok maybe not 10s of thousands, but many discus. more than I ever counted anywho

Ed

Thanks Ed! Definitely learned from you and many of the experienced and not so experienced members on here. I love THIS SITE!!!!

And definitely, Andrew is "The Man"!!! :D

Take care,

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

Started PP at 4AM. Its been 2 hours 45 minutes and all of the fish look good so far. I have been adding PP every 30 minutes or so to maintain light pink solution. My guess is that it is 7PM down under. How did your treatment go Kathy?

[Mr Wild]

Cheers Kath,

Your formula sounds fine to me. I am doing at PP treatment atm as well. light pink solution for 4 hrs. Check every 15 minutes or so to make sure water stays pink. Some will moan and groan about how I treat with PP so I wont get into how I measure or what my formula is. When first using PP you should have a starting point though.
Intresting that my PH dropped down to 5.5 and 4 pairs spawned right away. All the parents ate the eggs though. Im fine with that due to the fact that I had not cleaned the water in a while and I feel that most parents eat the eggs because the eggs are dead. Bactiera,fungus maybe little critters. Point is that if you do a PP treatment you relieve most of the infection pressure. The cleaner the water the larger the hatch provided ph and tds are in line. Let me know whats up.

Ed


Hi Ed
Water went a kind of yellow brown colour after an hour, I I drained and let them have clean water again.
I will try again tomorrow, I should have taken the sponge filter out!

Also is this solution ok to use on angels? I am getting a few in to be in, they will be in a tank separate to my discus and thought I might treat them as well.

Any thoughts on this?

[Mr Wild]

Started PP at 4AM. Its been 2 hours 45 minutes and all of the fish look good so far. I have been adding PP every 30 minutes or so to maintain light pink solution. My guess is that it is 7PM down under. How did your treatment go Kathy?

LOL it is 10.50PM here your a bit out! Maybe I have to do that too? Keep adding pp I mean.

[MostlyDiscus]

WOW, so your 28 hrs ahead of US east coast. Yes maintain a pink color for up to 4 hrs. Im at 3 hrs plus now. Water is pink to brownish. I think the sponge filter should be ok. I have 20 or so in my system atm. To do it right though you would pull and clean then nuke in the microwave for a min or so. Wait a day to see if they spawn. I have used PP even with eggs on the cone and all seemed to be ok.

Ed

[Mr Wild]

Ok Ed will do. I ended up making the stock solution and just adding the 2 drops per litre, made it easy to measure and dose.

Will do again tomorrow then and add more as I go to keep it pink. Ok no worries thanks for that!

[Eddie]

Ed, you hitting the entire system with PP?

Eddie

[MostlyDiscus]

Hey Eddie,


Just the 1000 gallon grow out system. Fish look great and are eating like little piglets. I may do the breeder system later today.

Ed

[Eddie]

Hey Eddie,


Just the 1000 gallon grow out system. Fish look great and are eating like little piglets. I may do the breeder system later today.

Ed

How often do you do a full system PP treatment, out of curiosity?

Thanks

Eddie

PS Sorry Kath, just seeing what others do :o

[mmorris]

I ended up making the stock solution and just adding the 2 drops per litre, made it easy to measure and dose.

Will do again tomorrow then and add more as I go to keep it pink.

I'm glad to $ee you mea$ured correctly rather than ju$t gue$$ing. (My $ key doe$n't work! :D) If the water turned brown then the PP i$ burned out. It'$ really not a good idea to keep adding more. Are you u$ing dechlorinator? If you $tart out with a clean tank and there i$ no dechlorinator in the water, then the water $hould $tay pink for the full four hour$. If it turn$ brown before four hour$, I recommend you abort and do it again the following day. You can (and $hould) leave the $ponge in the tank for the treatment but rin$e it out fir$t. Time to get a new keyboard!!!

[scottthomas]

Ok That does it. seems all the experienced breeders use pp with no problems. I dont know why I have been so fearful of using pp. Would the best option be for me to use pp to clean the tanks my breeders are in before they spawn rather than fry? I have two 29s with parents and fry that experience no probs. I have one tank that every hatch starts experiencing die offs at about 4 weeks. (even after they are removed from the parents after 2 weeks) Each tank is kept seperate and not cross contaminated. I clean all like mad. Only problems in the one tank. Seems to me that this speaks to some type of parasite problem such as flukes. Although the parents do not show any real signs of stress. Is there a best type of pp to buy?

[seanyuki]

You can buy pharmacy grade Potassium Permanganate(KMnO4)from the pharmacy section.....People here get them at Sears.....I have seen them for sale in Ebay too.....not that expensive.


http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=potassium+permanganate&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=prottassium+permangate&_osacat=0


cheers
Francis:)





Ok That does it. seems all the experienced breeders use pp with no problems. I dont know why I have been so fearful of using pp. Would the best option be for me to use pp to clean the tanks my breeders are in before they spawn rather than fry? I have two 29s with parents and fry that experience no probs. I have one tank that every hatch starts experiencing die offs at about 4 weeks. (even after they are removed from the parents after 2 weeks) Each tank is kept seperate and not cross contaminated. I clean all like mad. Only problems in the one tank. Seems to me that this speaks to some type of parasite problem such as flukes. Although the parents do not show any real signs of stress. Is there a best type of pp to buy?

[wgtaylor]

https://www.pondrx.com/categories/260.html

[scottthomas]

Thanks guys!

[seanyuki]

Just sharing


Potassium permaganate

I contacted the ordering department of Sears(USA):

Potassium permanganate
Part # 3441599
Division # 42
Source #625

:)

[Rod]

Also is this solution ok to use on angels? I am getting a few in to be in, they will be in a tank separate to my discus and thought I might treat them as well.

Any thoughts on this?


It is ok to use on angels Kath, i keep a few with my discus and never had any problems with the pp.

[Mr Wild]

It is ok to use on angels Kath, i keep a few with my discus and never had any problems with the pp.

Thanks Rod! This thread appears to have created a life of its own! I will be keeping the angels separate but as they are coming in from another source I thought to commence with this maybe a good treatment.

[Mr Wild]

I'm glad to $ee you mea$ured correctly rather than ju$t gue$$ing. (My $ key doe$n't work! :D) If the water turned brown then the PP i$ burned out. It'$ really not a good idea to keep adding more. Are you u$ing dechlorinator? If you $tart out with a clean tank and there i$ no dechlorinator in the water, then the water $hould $tay pink for the full four hour$. If it turn$ brown before four hour$, I recommend you abort and do it again the following day. You can (and $hould) leave the $ponge in the tank for the treatment but rin$e it out fir$t. Time to get a new keyboard!!!

Hey MM :) LOL

I do not use a dechlor as I have rainwater so no chlorine but I do use amazon mineral supplement could that be the issue?

I intend to retry today after they have finished their brekky.

[kaceyo]

Hi Kath,
The minerals won't hurt the process at all. A dirty sponge, water or tank walls will. If you clean the sponge, wipe the tank down and do a wc before the treatment, there's no reason the PP shouldn't last for 4 hrs or more. If I slack a little on the pre-cleanup, I find more PP is needed towards the end of the 4hrs.

Kacey

[Mr Wild]

Thanks Kacey, I am 1.5 hours in to the second treatment and colour is stable so I guess yesterday's attempt cleaned up the tank enough for it to work well today!

I did do a wc change yesterday but only partial and while I cleaned down the sides and floor not all of that would have been removed with the partial wc so that explains it I think.

Thanks again!

[Mr Wild]

Update
I did the treatment in 150litres with 6 fish. 4 are in perfect nick but 2 have burns and have lost slime coat and do not look good at all.

I did the 2ppm dose from stock solution as prescribed but there must have been a "hot spot" where more medication gathered although to me it looked well stirred through.

I have isolated the 2 and have only put salt in the tank to help them along. Is there anything else I should do? They are swimming, I have not offered food, just gave them fresh water and salt.

The other 4 look great and are eating like pigs and of course they were also given fresh water.

Any thoughts?

[MostlyDiscus]

I agree with Kacey here 100%

[Mr Wild]

I agree with Kacey here 100%

Sorry Ed
what do you mean?

[MostlyDiscus]

Hey Kath,

Sorry to hear this. PP can be tricky to use. When I first used it I too burned a little skin. DONT FREAK. The biggest problem discus keepers face is trying to treat the problem too quickly. Your biggest concern would be secondary infections due to bactiera. If you dont feed the fish then the water should stay clean and present less problems. Clean is the word of the day here. The biggest concern may be the gills and infection. Keep the tank clean for the time being. Im not a big fan of the QT tank option, too hard to keep water parameters etc constant.

Ed

[kaceyo]

Hey Kath,
You may want to double check the dosage as you should not be able to cause burns using it at 2ppm. Make sure it's 1 drop per litre (I think that's what you said) and not 1 drop per gal, check the weights and measurments etc. There can't be hot spots, and even if the fish swim through the cloud of PP when you first add it it won't burn them.
Your fish should be fine in a short time.

kacey

[roundfishross]

hello all ,give the young fry a dose of prazi (jungle mmakes a fizz tab thats prazi and metro blend it will not hurt them and they should get theyre color back by morning!!!

[Mr Wild]

Hey Kath,
You may want to double check the dosage as you should not be able to cause burns using it at 2ppm. Make sure it's 1 drop per litre (I think that's what you said) and not 1 drop per gal, check the weights and measurments etc. There can't be hot spots, and even if the fish swim through the cloud of PP when you first add it it won't burn them.
Your fish should be fine in a short time.

kacey

Kacey
2ppm in 2 drops per litre, 1drop would be 1ppm.


Hey Kath,

Sorry to hear this. PP can be tricky to use. When I first used it I too burned a little skin. DONT FREAK. The biggest problem discus keepers face is trying to treat the problem too quickly. Your biggest concern would be secondary infections due to bactiera. If you dont feed the fish then the water should stay clean and present less problems. Clean is the word of the day here. The biggest concern may be the gills and infection. Keep the tank clean for the time being. Im not a big fan of the QT tank option, too hard to keep water parameters etc constant.

Ed

Well I did freak but now I am setlled to hear others have had the problem. They are now in clean fresh water only.
Thanks Kath

[TankWatcher]

Hi Kath

IME, the fish sometimes peel a little bit of skin, here & there, after the treatment. It doesn't seem to bother them, and it also doesn't seem to bother them while they're in the treatment. I know we can't ask them, so guess I can't say for sure it is so that they're not bothered, but there's nothing in their behaviour that would suggest it.

[Mr Wild]

Hi Kath

IME, the fish sometimes peel a little bit of skin, here & there, after the treatment. It doesn't seem to bother them, and it also doesn't seem to bother them while they're in the treatment. I know we can't ask them, so guess I can't say for sure it is so that they're not bothered, but there's nothing in their behaviour that would suggest it.

Exactly Robyn!

I was watching them the whole time as the tank is in my lounge room I would like go and washup them back to watch them, then fold some laundry then back to watch them, I was there and they did not appears to be at all worried they were just swimming around!

I have one bad one though, it is head standing now, perhaps something else was wrong with it although it appeared healthy and fat.

What I find amazing is that I treated 6 fish. 4 are just fine, would not even know I treated them, 1 is really burnt and the other only minor. So figure that out! They were all in the same tank at the same time and yet with different outcomes.

[TankWatcher]

So, he was not headstanding or acting sick beforehand?

[Mr Wild]

So, he was not headstanding or acting sick beforehand?

I had treated her 2 weeks ago with metro for a period of 10 days due to non eating and white poop.

She has been back in with the others for about a week, but she was flicking on the air-hose so I thought pp would benefit her.

2 others that went through the same treatment in the exact same tank are shimmying at the cone as we speak! So weird.

[TankWatcher]

Still headstanding? To give you hope, Rox's headstander no long headstands !

[Mr Wild]

Still headstanding? To give you hope, Rox's headstander no long headstands !

No she pasded this morning just too much damage. The other 4 that went threough the treatment are now pecking at their cones.
The last one that was slightly burnt will recover, there is progress already.

Blue Turq pair and My goldens are the ones pecking.

Really strange how it only really got to 1 of them so badly, I do not understand it at all.

[mmorris]

It is strange. I killed my fish the first time I used PP. I very carefully followed incorrect instructions that gave 8ppm rather than 2. There were no physical signs on the fish at all.

[scottthomas]

Sorry about your loss.

[kaceyo]

Sorry to hear that Kath. It may have just been very sensitive to PP, the way some people are much more sensitive to certain meds than others.

Kacey

[Eddie]

No she pasded this morning just too much damage. The other 4 that went threough the treatment are now pecking at their cones.
The last one that was slightly burnt will recover, there is progress already.

Blue Turq pair and My goldens are the ones pecking.

Really strange how it only really got to 1 of them so badly, I do not understand it at all.

I am sorry to hear Kath. :( All the best with the others.

Take care,

Eddie

[Mr Wild]

It is strange. I killed my fish the first time I used PP. I very carefully followed incorrect instructions that gave 8ppm rather than 2. There were no physical signs on the fish at all.[/I]

You know I was having a discussion with Rod about measuring dosages the other day. His eye dropper gave him 16 drops per ml, my medicine dropper was 13 drops per ml. So for every 13 drops I was putting in he would have counted 16 which means I would have put more in. The BIDKA instrustions just quote drops per litre, no size was given, that is possibly were things went wrong. I have pm'd Paul to let him know and I have asked that the instructions are mls per 100litres or something like that, that way you can measure it out with a syringe and have no problems.


Sorry about your loss.

Thanks Scott, it is all a learning curve, and I am learning albeit the hard way sometimes.


Sorry to hear that Kath. It may have just been very sensitive to PP, the way some people are much more sensitive to certain meds than others.

Kacey

Yes it could be Kacey, but I really would have thought that with the damage that was on her I would have seen her flip sideways or go to the top or something, nup she just stayed swimmin.


I am sorry to hear Kath. :( All the best with the others.

Take care,

Eddie

Thanks Eddie.

[mmorris]

[/I]

The BIDKA instrustions just quote drops per litre, no size was given, that is possibly were things went wrong.

I doubt if that was the problem. The difference wouldn't have given you an overdose. There are supposed to be 20 drops to a ml (cc). I measured once and got 19. Measuring by drops from the stock solution should have been safe. I suspect something else was going on with the fish. It's a horrible feeling to lose a fish to PP. I know. When I lost one my first time using PP I analyzed it thoroughly before I figured out that the instructions I had used at the time were wrong. I guess it was a relief to know it wasn't me! Sometimes, I guess, it's the fish. :sad:

[Mr Wild]

I doubt if that was the problem. The difference wouldn't have given you an overdose. There are supposed to be 20 drops to a ml (cc). I measured once and got 19. Measuring by drops from the stock solution should have been safe. I suspect something else was going on with the fish. It's a horrible feeling to lose a fish to PP. I know. When I lost one my first time using PP I analyzed it thoroughly before I figured out that the instructions I had used at the time were wrong. I guess it was a relief to know it wasn't me! Sometimes, I guess, it's the fish. :sad:

You might be right Martha!