Can someone ID these for me...

[rht1231]

I've got 8 new fish in a 50 gallon tank and they've never been "right" since I got them 3 weeks ago. They're in a tight group and scared most of the time and eat very carefully and selectively (FBW and live CBW). Found some scratching and hith. I treated with clout for 6 days and they are doing better but not 100%. I took a fecal sample on the 7th (4th day of treatment) and found the following this morning. One looks like an egg and the other swims around with a dark spot that comes and goes (nucleus?). There are also very little guys that appear to swim super fast but this may be Brownian motion. I do 40% WC everyday. bi weekly water samples always show ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates to be 0. ph is 7.2 in the tank. 7.4 in the aged tap water with gh=kh=3dH. I told the seller about the possibility of gill flukes and says it is not uncommon due to seasonal changes. I want to verify I'm treating this properly. Thanks in advance!

Ryan

[rht1231]

Oh ya, the guy that swims around may be some sort of flagellate because I saw a tail like thingy that moved it used to help it move around. There were quite a large number of these.

[rht1231]

Wow, there are a lot of living organisms! Attached are several more pictures of dead worms the bigger ones and live, moving worms (smaller white ones) and things that zip around super fast, things that have two dots that look like eyes, things that are small and float around, things that look like a pill, things that twist, etc... how is one to determine which one belongs and which one doesn't? :confused: I'm sure the worms shouldn't be there... I think... Well I have Prazi on the way so i'll definately try that. The experts please chime in!

Ryan

[frenchie100]

Unless it is a sample that came straight from the fish, without touching any surfaces of the aquarium, then all these things could be millions of things.

There are many microscopic organisms in your tank that have different shapes or forms and most of them are not pathogenic.

What you have to worry about is if it is a sample that is taken fresh off the fish. I used to pull poop off the fish with an eye dropper.

Even then, you are going to fins tons of nonpathogenic swimming things with flagella, cilia, etc...

For me an easier way to determine what was wrong with my fish was to rule out what it didn't have. You look for micrographs of common pathogens here is a general list and description and look for them. Some are easier to see than others, like spiro/hexamita are extremly hard to see even at 400X (dimming the lights help) because they are very small and swim very fast. Others like nematodes and flukes are very easy to see at 40x.

This is a really good reference to help you start the process of elimination:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/topic_series_common_freshwater_fish_parasites

Click on each series and download the pdf. On page4 of each series, you will have micrographs of the different groups of parasites.

Good luck! Microscopes are just way too much fun! :D

Julie :)

[rht1231]

Hi Julie,

Thanks for the response. The sample was indirectly collected. White poop that was siphoned out. I looked through the guides and didn't find anything that matched up conclusively. So that is a good sign I guess! Microscopes are fun, just wished I knew what I was looking at! :(

Ryan

[frenchie100]

Hi Ryan,

That is the frustrating part of having a microscope. Not being able to identify everything!

You are having white poop?

You seem pretty good at using a microscope, so if you couldn't positively identify anything, then I think certain pathogenic culprits can be safely ruled out.

That said, there are more difficult ones to see such as spiro v. and bacteria which are tiny.

This is my experience with white poop, spiro v, bacteria etc.. the link that Eddie posted in that thread was enlightening for me and helped me prioritize my issues:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=71120

White poop ( or clear poop, more precisely) can also be caused by stress, so you want to make sure there is nothing wrong with your water that could be stressing them.

It would be really helpful if you could copy/paste the disease questionnaire and fill it out. Those are questions that will eventually be asked at some point or another!

Julie :)

[Eddie]

See the pictures in the first post, definitely not a good sign.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=61228&highlight=pictures

Eddie

[rht1231]

Thanks for the response guys. I've stopped the clout treatment. I have Prazi on the way. What do you guys recommend in terms of dosage, treatment routine, WC, etc...


DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started



Introduced three weeks ago 8 new 2.5"-3" juvie in a 50 gallon BB. The filters were cycled for three months prior to new inhabitants.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

They've been skittish especailly of the light from day one and are always in a corner hugged tightly. noticed HITH seven days ago, treated with clout and next day, the hole is healed. Then noticed fish flashing and breathing heavily. It is possible that they were breathing heavily all this time but I wrote it off as stress due to new enviornment. continued clout treatment for 6 consecutive days with 40% WC daily. Noticed white poop on the second day of clout treatment and took fecal sample. They are all eating CBW and pooping dark now. They seem more active after the clout wears off and are fighting aggressively which is good. I've never seen them this active. I think there is continued infestation with gill flukes as the fish would alternate with one clamped gill. For instance one fish would be clamped and breathing fast one day, the next it would be another with the initial one recovering. They are still shy and prefer to be in a darker area of the tank. But when no one is around, they roam freely throughout the entire tank.




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Clout 1 pill/ 10 gallons for 6 consecutive days.



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

50 gallon including sump, 8 2.5" to 3" SL when I got them but they are now a little bigger with the biggest one being 4" TL.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

40% daily aged for 24hr with PH stable at 7.4 the tank is BB.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____initially 82, bumped up to 87

- ph _____7.2

- ammonia reading ____0 (twice a week reading)

- nitrite reading ____0 (twice a week reading)

- nitrate reading ____0 (twice a week reading)

- well water ____

- municipal water ____yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

no

[rht1231]

Also, on the first post, is that a capillaria egg? This is from Brand New Discus by Yamada and Mori.

[frenchie100]

I took the thread back from the top again and it kind of seems that you might have several things going on. So let me try to break it down as best as I can.

-The first picture doesn't have me convinced that it is a capillaria egg because it doesn't have the distinct shape at both ends of the egg. How many of these are you seeing per angle of view?

-Those worms do look like some type of nematode, but it is not clear what type. If you saw a nematode like that with eggs like pic#1 then I would say that it was capillaria. Prazi won't do anything for that.

-The fast moving organism you saw that looked like it had 2 eyes: was it small even at 400X?

-The one gill breathing is tough because it can be caused by ANYTHING that is irritating the gills, so unless you take a gill sample ( which is way too crazy for me) we can't know for sure that it is gill flukes.

- Where is the tank located? Is it getting direct sunlight or is in a very bright room? Mine hated being in our bright kitchen in their grow out tank. As soon as I covered 3 of the 4 sides with construction paper ( and even some of the front at times) they relaxed more. They grow out of that too.

-Where was the hith located? Only one hole?

- Clout has a cocktail of drugs in it, so it would be better if we could find a more specific drug. The fact that clout is helping is further making think one of your core problems might be Spiro V.

- Are they still scratching too?

- If you are still having the external issues ( ie-scratching, heavy breathing, one gill breathing) those need to be taken care of first. The internal issues I think you are having are slower progressing so can be taken care of afterwards.

-Prazi will take care of flukes (maybe) and tapeworms. Did you get it from Jehmco?

Sorry this turned out so long!

Julie :)

[texasdiscusman]

First pic is capillaria and yes as long as it is pure prazi not prazi pro it will kill the capillaria.Also pure prazi is not water soluable must be put in vodka to disolve.Prazi is nothing more than puppy wormer from your vet.But it will do the the trick

[Eddie]

First pic is capillaria and yes as long as it is pure prazi not prazi pro it will kill the capillaria.Also pure prazi is not water soluable must be put in vodka to disolve.Prazi is nothing more than puppy wormer from your vet.But it will do the the trick

Sorry Randy, Prazi does nothing for capillaria.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA091


Capillaria Species

The Capillarids as a group can infect a wide variety of fish hosts. Capillaria pterophylli is a relatively common nematode seen in the intestines of cichlids (including angelfish and discus). Capillaria species are also seen in cyprinids, gouramis, tetras and other species of fish. Capillaria females are easily identified when they are carrying the brown, barrel-shaped eggs with a plug-like structure on each end (Figure 10).

Figure 10.

Capillaria female showing eggs with plug-like structures at each end.

Capillaria species have direct life cycles, and can spread from one fish to another by ingestion of infective larvae. It may take Capillaria pterophylli eggs up to three weeks at 68-73°F (less time at warmer temperatures) before they contain embryos developed enough to be infective when ingested by a fish. The length of time required from infection until the mature adult parasites are producing eggs or larvae is approximately three months at these temperatures. Even though Capillaria species have direct life cycles, a tubifex worm may act as a paratenic (alternative) host and "carry" infective stages of Capillaria to the fish that consumes them.
Diagnosis

Capillaria species are relatively transparent and, if only immature or male nematodes are present, they may be easily missed during necropsy. However, Capillarid infection is relatively easy to diagnose when females containing the typical barrel-shaped eggs with a polar plug on each end (opercula) or eggs alone are present in the intestinal tract.
Treatment

Capillarid infections can be treated with dewormers such as levamisole or fenbendazole (see “General Treatment Notes”). To avoid reinfection, organic debris and feces should be removed as often as possible, especially following deworming treatment.

;)

[texasdiscusman]

Oh yeah it will Eddie it is just a worm it works used it many times on it myself.

[Eddie]

Oh yeah it will Eddie it is just a worm it works used it many times on it myself.

Prazi works on cestodes not nematodes. Capillaria is a roundworm. If it worked, they might have mentioned it in the provided data. ;)

Eddie

[texasdiscusman]

When you get to Texas and if Jack shows we can sit down and talk about this.Guess what food causes capillaria more than any?

[Eddie]

When you get to Texas and if Jack shows we can sit down and talk about this.Guess what food causes capillaria more than any?

The issue here is that if someone wants to accurately treat their fish for capillaria, then the right chemicals need to be used. Levimasole, Fenbendazole, Flubendazole are the proper chemicals used for nematodes. I understand there may be some followings...but nothing compares to research performed/documented by aquatic vets. ;) You may want to do some more research. This book is a good start:

Noga, E.J. 1996. Fish disease: diagnosis and treatment. Mosby-Year Book, Inc., St. Louis, MO, pp. 166-170.

Eddie

[frenchie100]

First pic is capillaria and yes as long as it is pure prazi not prazi pro it will kill the capillaria.Also pure prazi is not water soluable must be put in vodka to disolve.Prazi is nothing more than puppy wormer from your vet.But it will do the the trick

Although I had never heard of this, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and researched it to find nothing that linked the use of pure prazi to eradicate capillaria. Anytime prazi is mentioned as a dewormer it is specifically for tapeworms.

Is the Merck Veterinary Manual a good enough source to show you what the treatments are for capillaria? Notice that prazi is not included...

http://www.vetmanual.org/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170412.htm&word=capillaria%2cin%2cfish

Here is another table with treatment options:

http://www.vetmanual.org/mvm/servlet/CVMHighLight?file=htm/bc/texl10.htm&word=capillaria,eggs


When you get to Texas and if Jack shows we can sit down and talk about this.Guess what food causes capillaria more than any?

If you would like to start yet another debate on the use of CBW and whether or not they carry worms, then you can go start your own thread.

I cannot say 100% that the OP's first pic is a capillaria egg because I do not see the distinct caps on each end.

Julie :)

[Eddie]

Great references Julie, this type of information is very good for the benefit of all members. Two thumbs up! ;)


Take care,
Eddie

[rht1231]

Thanks for the input guys. Julie, to answer you question I only saw one egg. I saw wiggly jelly bean shaped guys that are really small that I would guesstimate to be about 1um or so wide. The guy with two eyes is actual in the picture labeled liveworms on the upper right near the two white threadlike worms. That thing is probably about a few microns across. I'm using a 50X lens. I couldn't get good pictures with the 100x becasue they move so fast. One fish had a hole in the head dead center a little above the eyes. After the first day of clout treatment, it healed up and is now a light gray dot, hardly noticeable. The fish seem to be ok now, not breathing rapidly and no signs of flashing although they are still skittish. I've got the following from DRSfoster: 4oz. PraziPro, clout and metro. Again thanks for all the help. I will take another sample tomorrow. :)

[rht1231]

Correction, just saw one guy "cough" and shake. I will proceed with PraziPro for the gill glukes and take it one step at a time.

[frenchie100]

When you are giving me magnifications are you just giving me the lens magnification or are you including the eye piece magnification as well?

For example the eye piece is usually 10X or 16X. Then the lens is whatever is written on it. So if the eye peice is 10X and the lens is 40X then your magnification is 400X.

Sorry, I don't remember the micron estimates compared to magnification.

I wish I could zoom in on tht picture to look at it more closely, but I can't. Are the eyes next to eachother, and does it spiral around when it swims?

Are you using Prazi pro, or pure prazi powder?
Edit: sorry just saw that you already answered that.

Julie :)

[MostlyDiscus]

I use Flubenol 15 for Capillaira. I dont think that is a capillaira egg though. Shape is wrong and no cork ends. You know a cap egg when you see it. Most times with an infestation of capillaira there are many eggs.

Ed

[frenchie100]

I use Flubenol 15 for Capillaira. I dont think that is a capillaira egg though. Shape is wrong and no cork ends. You know a cap egg when you see it. Most times with an infestation of capillaira there are many eggs.

Ed

Thanks Ed! That's what I was thinking too, but the only thing that gave me a doubt was if maybe the micrograph was taken at an angle where those cork ends were not in focus. But again, exactly like you said, there should have been many eggs, hence why I was asking him how many eggs he was seeing per angle of view. Do you agree that if Ryan thinks he has external issues still going on, he should tackle those first before dealing with any potential internal issues?

The thread was just going off on an tangent with the capillaria issue.

Julie :)

[rht1231]

Hi,

Julie, the microscope has a 50x and the image capture bypasses the eye piece. It is 50x optics, but the digital capture system is very advance so you can easily use a 50x optic to get a usable 1250x. No, its not mine. ;) So, I put prazi in last night at the recommended dosage. Fish are a little skittish today but they are all eating so that is good. What's everyone's take on adding hydrogen peroxide? Just curious. I shall wait it out. :(

Ryan

[frenchie100]

Prazi pro made my fish skittish too for some reason.

Your microscope specs are too advanced for me, but I am still suspecting Spiro V. as your main internal problem. Just too many things lead me to believe that it's what it is: white poop, hith, 2 eyed flagellate and the fact that Clout seemed to have helped. Spiro V responds really well to metro, which is one of the ingredients in metro.

The clout treatment you did might have just reduced the population of the flagellate enough to make the symptoms of a more adanced infestation go away.

After you are done with the prazi pro, you can either: wait it out and see if the white poop comes back, or start a metro treatment at the proper dosage for eradicating the flagellate. The choice is yours.

I have no experience with hydrogen peroxide so I can't really comment but here are a couple of good links:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=74138&highlight=hydrogen+peroxide

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA157

Julie :)

[rht1231]

Thanks Julie, you rock! :drummer:

[frenchie100]

You welcome! Hope it all works out for you.

Julie :)

[rht1231]

Hi,

Is this a capillaria egg? I took this before the PraziPro treatment. During the PraziPro treatment, I did not see any worms expelled by the fish. All the fish are eating pellets and FBW now. They are still skittish when I'm near the tank, but a few will come out to cautiously eat. One eye on the food and the other on me LOL! Perhaps they need some more time to adjust to non-medicated water? They were really skittish during the Prazi treatment. I looked at the feces and now they are long and red (from the pellets) and appear to be "hanging" longer than normal. It is not white so that is good. I looked at the feces under the microscope and did not see any more eggs. Should I start levimasole if this indeed is capillaria?

Thanks,

Ryan

[frenchie100]

Oh yeah, that's a beautiful capillaria egg!

I would go ahead and start the Levamisole. Just make sure that you have done several WCs after the end of the Prazipro to make sure there is no med left in the water.

The Prazipro was used because you thought you were having some external issues right? Are all those symptoms gone now?

Good luck

Julie :)

[rht1231]

Hi Julie,

The heavy breathing and occasional flashing is gone now. I suspected flukes hence the PraziPro. So now where do I find levamisole? At this rate, I will have more meds than fish. :o

Ryan

[frenchie100]

Jhhnn posted this link:

http://www.aitsafe.com/cf/add.cfm?userid=4216664&product=586 Levamisole Powder 100gr.&price=17.95&units=0.50&return=www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/index.html

Otherwise it is really hard to find.

I know how you feel ,trust me! When it rains it pours, huh!

Good luck

Julie :)

[Jhhnn]

That link is funky, Julie... The source is Foy's pigeon supplies.

http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/586.html

I've not used it, myself, but have some on order in case I need to do so...

John Nicholson mentioned racing pigeon supplies as a source for dimetro in an article, which led me to Foy's...

[rht1231]

Thanks Jhhnn and Julie, I went ahead and order the 100gr powder. I went ahead and looked at some older fecal sample, and sure enough I saw a live capillaria flickering about in the bio matter. whadaya think? I didn't find anymore eggs. I think a total of 2 so far.

Ryan

[frenchie100]

Yeah, what you have is really minor. some people wouldn't even treat unless they see a lot more.

The levamisole should take care of the very few that you have no problem ;)!

Julie