Trying to cycle a new tanks and filter but need advice.

[smallfin]

Hello

I have been trying to cycle in my new tank and new external canister filter over the last few weeks and have been trying to do a ‘fishless cycle’ I haven’t been able to track down any ammonia product so I have been using an aquarium product called Cycle which claims to have high levels of good bacteria etc in it. I have been putting it in each week like the instructions say and then testing after a week and getting results of 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrate and 0 Nitrite.
I became suspicious that this was even doing anything so basically tested an almost full strength tube of ‘Cycle’ to find it read 0 also. My conclusion is that the reading I am getting from the tank are not going to tell me when it is ready.

The ph is high. High range of 7.8 but comes out of the tap around 7.4 (should I use product to modify ph or will that just cause issues with water changes etc. I was at a LFS on the weekend and thought I would get a couple of little sucker / catfish to help clean the tank a little and also test if the water was suitable yet or not. They have now both died within 3 days. It has been 3weeks of cycling so far and I’m wondering if I Keep going for another 3 weeks if it will make a difference.

Can anyone suggest what might be wrong or what I should do from here?

Another question I had was that I was thinking about adding an simple sponge filter in there too in addition to the canister. More so to get fish used to it being in there if they end up breeding and also to be able to assist in my next tank cycle. Should I put the sponge in now with the rest of the cycle or should I wait until it is basically ready for fish?

Also If I was thinking about putting in a plant either in a pot or on a piece of driftwood should I put that in now too or is that just going to cause more issues?

[ifixoldhouses]

You have to have some ammonia in there to start the cycle, you can seed from another tank, or if you use fish to cycle, keep the water changed 50% every day and use Prime.

[Ben75]

Hi Smallfin,
I cycled my entire system earlier this year.
I used seachem stability , dosed daily with no water changes.
For my ammonia source i used a little pinch of beef heart every 2 - 3 days.
kept temp at 29°C. i was able to cycle with in 2.5 weeks. it may not have worked for others , for me it got the thumbs up.
I think the key is to provide an ammonia source & dose daily.
Regards,

[tcyiu]

No disrespect intended, but I feel you should really read and try to understand what a cycle is before trying to start adding stuff.

The nitrogen cycle starts with fish waste which breaks down into ammonia. The bacteria (and there are many species) take it from there and carry the nitrogen based waste through the whole cycle.

Live bacteria by itself will test zero for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

The bacteria you added week after week, probably just died from starvation or is in hibernation because they had no ammonia to use as food. So basically, your tank was not cycled. The proof was in the death of the fish you added. Those fish were not be tolerant of ammonia produced by their own waste. Since the tank was not cycled, the ammonia hung around long enough to poison the fish.

I would recommend going the normal route of adding ammonia tolerant fish (like danios), and let the cycling happen naturally. And after the cycling has occurred, I would then start with something other than discus. When you feel you're ready, try to keep a school of cardinal tetras alive. Only then should you attempt discus.

Again, no disrespect intended, but based on what you wrote, my feeling is that you do not yet have a command of the basics and may be moving way too fast. It's just my opinion.

Tim

[smallfin]

Hi Tim

No offence taken, and thank you for your reply. It has been over 15years since I've had a fishtank and Discus and backthen without much info just put in the fish and conditioner and away I went. This time I have been reading as much as I can to try and determine the best way but with benig able to find an off the shelf source of ammonia I have struggled a bit. I starting to agree with your idea of getting a little more comfortable with some other fish before investing in some discus. (not overly happy about it though as I am keen as ever) But will see how I go.

I'll try another few shops to see I can find some amonia. I have read of someone using dead prawns / shrimp in the tank but not sure if I want to try that method.

Thanks again
smallfin

[tcyiu]

Thanks for not taking offense as I do tend to speak my mind.

As to a source for ammonia, I really recommend using live fish such as danios. Danios tolerate high levels of ammonia and are very good for starting the cycle.

In my area, the good fish store sells danios at a really reasonable price and will buy them back at half price once you've seeded the tank. If you happen to like energetic fish, you might actually keep the danios because they are pretty (but way too hyper - for me).

The advantage of using live fish is that their poop is natural and will spawn a more natural mix of micro-organisms. Plus you don't have to hunt for pure ammonia.

As for using meat (any meat such as shrimp, BH etc), these will decay and provide a source of ammonia. But they could also spawn a host of pathogenic bacteria and fungus from the decay process. I wouldn't go that route personally.

Just a thought.

Tim

[poconogal]

A great product for clean, fishless cycling is AmmonChlor, and even with the small jar, you'll have plenty left over for cycling many tanks, since a little goes a very long way. This product was developed specifically for cycling aquariums without any chance of introducing pathogens or decay to a tank. It's not an expensive bacterial starter either. It's also good for keeping a QT/hospital tank cycled while empty of fish. Here's a link:

http://www.ammonchlor.com/main_index.html

[Joe]

I use a product called Nitro Max. It contains 25 billion live nitrosomonas & nitrobacter per bottle. I use it when doing water changes also.I love this product and would not use anything else!

Joe

[David Rose]

I've used the AmmonChlor in cycling my sponges on my breeder tank. It works great!

[joanr]

Apparently the NitroMax has been discontinued, or so a few online stores say. I've used the Tetra Safe Start and it works well also.

[smallfin]

Thanks guys
I ended up ordering some ammonchlor which will hopfuly arrive in the next fews days. Question now is, should I do a WC and start the process with new water? The filter ha been running the whole time so I guess it could stay with the same water?
I hope this stuff works quickly and I can get some fish soon (as much as I think the tank looks nice, it would be even nicer with somthing in it.
Thanks again
smallfin

[David Rose]

I would just make your stock solution as per the directions that come with your AmmonChlor and add the recommended dosage to bring your ammonia level between 4-5ppm. IMO 4ppm is plenty, so I would add a little at a time and retest until your reach your desired level of ammonia.

As for the Cycle that you've used, the bacteria are "dormant" and need ammonia to feed on, which isn't present so I wouldn't expect to see a change. IMO, the fishless cycle is the way to go and AmmonChlor will work great for you. I don't think you need to do a water change, but you can PM Connie/PoconoGal to ask. I would think if there is any benefit to the Cycle you used, the AmmonChlor will kick in to provide a food source.

Best of luck!

[joanr]

Thanks guys
I ended up ordering some ammonchlor which will hopfuly arrive in the next fews days. Question now is, should I do a WC and start the process with new water? The filter ha been running the whole time so I guess it could stay with the same water?
I hope this stuff works quickly and I can get some fish soon (as much as I think the tank looks nice, it would be even nicer with somthing in it.
Thanks again
smallfin

You may want to try what I call the "cycle combo". You start off with the ammo product and wait until the Nitrites spike to their highest level. Then you start adding the SafeStart to the tank for a week or so. Then you do a big w/c, about 80-90% when you see 0 for the ammo and nitrite levels. I had great results using this method and it shaved off 2 weeks from the whole process. I wouldn't place a big load on the tank at first though, and I can't guarentee this method would work for you but it does speed things up if you are in a hurry. The Tetra SafeStart has not hit the local stores around here yet, it used to be called another name, and they have improved on it and released it under SafeStart. Not to be confused with a similiary named product they have also. It does have a shelf life and the best way to get it in is to order it 2 day delivery so it's not over exposed to the heat or freezing.
I'd change some water before starting the cycle again just to get out the "Cycle" product. I find Cycle does not do what they claim.

[philip69285]

I have used cycle many times to start new aquariums up and never had a problem ever with this product. I also recommend it for my customers to use and they as well never have a problem using this product. The ones that tend to buy the less expensive bacteria tend to have problems right away or later on. I started a shrimp tank up in 2 weeks (9gallon) and they all survived and are breeding like crazy. Also setup my 120gal with cycle and its doing just fine and went right into discus which are doing great :). So Im not sure why it didnt work but stability is a great product and maybe using both at the same time will do it for you.

[David Rose]

Not to argumentative, but I'm confused... you start off defending Cycle by Hagen, but end with supporting Stability by Seachem?

Are you suggesting that someone that wants to do a "fishless cycle" and had no ammonia present will have success as indicated by our OP?

In either case, both products are nitrification boosters and are not sufficient in themselves to cycle a tank. Pure ammonia or AmmonChlor is the "purest" approach to avoid any pathogenic containments from other fish or borrowed cycled media and IMO, is the safest for our discus. At least I wouldn't want to take that risk given my investment.






I have used cycle many times to start new aquariums up and never had a problem ever with this product. I also recommend it for my customers to use and they as well never have a problem using this product. The ones that tend to buy the less expensive bacteria tend to have problems right away or later on. I started a shrimp tank up in 2 weeks (9gallon) and they all survived and are breeding like crazy. Also setup my 120gal with cycle and its doing just fine and went right into discus which are doing great :). So Im not sure why it didnt work but stability is a great product and maybe using both at the same time will do it for you.

[poconogal]

I've tried Cycle several times many years ago, and unless Hagen has drastically improved it, it didn't work one bit. May as well have been pouring a bottle of water into the tank.

I was a great fan of Stability when it first came out, but within the last 1-1/2 years, I've had NO luck with it and ended up subjecting 2 expensive, large adult Discus to ammonia and cycling of the QT tank. :mad: See:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69787

Others too have reported that Stability has not worked for them either, even though it WAS great when it first came out. Perhaps Seachem produced a bad batch, but it seems more likely to me that like most everything else, when a product is newly introduced its much better and when customers are found, the company downgrades the product.

IMO for sure-fire cycling of a tank, nothing beats a clean, clear source of ammonia, even though it takes longer. There ARE some bacterial starters that DO work, but cost wise, the AmmonChlor clear ammonia product is much less expensive because only a little bit is used, with the remaining amount in the jar left over for cycling many, many more tanks, or keeping a QT up and running. The AmmonChlor product also lasts indefinitely, unlike bacterial starters, which to the best of my knowledge all have an expiration date.

[poconogal]

smallfin, I hope you will post your results with the AmmonChlor when you're done cycling your tank. I'm sure lots of people would be interested to hear about your experience with the product.

[David Rose]

smallfin, I hope you will post your results with the AmmonChlor when you're done cycling your tank. I'm sure lots of people would be interested to hear about your experience with the product.


Whoops...I guess I should do that too. I hope smallfin is better at tracking the progress stats than I was. I know it took about five weeks to cycle my sponges, but it is important to follow the direcitons. I messed up and added a second dose from the stock solution along the way that set me back.

[smallfin]

Hi Guys

A bit of an update. Thanks for all your suggestions but like David said and after wasting so much time in the first plae I am just sticking to the instructions inluded. It's almost been 4 weeks since I added the ammonchlor product to my tank. (seems like a very long 4 weeks!)
Once ordered it arrived in a day or 2 which was great, mind you it would be a little longer for you on the other side of the world. It has clear instruction and what seems a very simple process. The results have been showing what they are meant to be according to the instructions and I am now just waiting for the Nitrate and Nitrite to return to 0 before I move into the next stage.


Although I now have enough to last me a lifetime so I wouldn't need to order it again. I wouldn't waste time looking in the shops looking for ammonia again and just get on with it and order ammonchlor (and no I'm not getting any $$ on the side) LOL

Hope this helps others particularly those in countries where it is hard to find clear ammonia.

Happy New Year everybody and I will let you know final results and times when it's done and ready.

[phatdave]

Just curious here, not trying to be crass. But isnt human urine a pretty good free source of ammonia?

Urine is usually stertile, unless the donor has kindey infections, so that wouldn't be a problem.

[philip69285]

I love both products. Im not going to down talk either one of them as I find them to be very equal. I never had any problem just using cycle or stability as a started bacteria and then adding whatever fish I wanted to add with no deaths. Guess it just works better for me and the ppl I recommend it to as they see great results with either or. Everyone has there own ways and everything so you will hear lots of different ways to do things but in the end do what works best for you and thats all you should do :).

[Eddie]

Just curious here, not trying to be crass. But isnt human urine a pretty good free source of ammonia?

Urine is usually stertile, unless the donor has kindey infections, so that wouldn't be a problem.

You are correct, you can cycle an aquarium using urine. I havent done it but there is an article I've posted before on the subject. :o

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/startover/fishless.shtml

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bionitrogencycle/a/aa042403.htm

Eddie

[diskus24.de]

Fatfree Milk does the job of feeding your bacteria as well as Urine but might be a bit more easy to handle ... ;-)

Depending on the size of the tank, start with small quantities and watch your tank to become cloudy. The faster the clouds henceforth disappear, the better your cycle is working. The more milk you add, the more 'bacteria food' is available and the more bacteria can develop, only limited by your filter's capacity. Test for nitrite and nitrate until all Params are i.O.
This methode works fine, but is only recommended for fishless tanks. Plants are not affected.

Regards, Rudolf

[scuba guy]

No disrespect intended, but I feel you should really read and try to understand what a cycle is before trying to start adding stuff.

I would recommend going the normal route of adding ammonia tolerant fish (like danios), and let the cycling happen naturally. And after the cycling has occurred, I would then start with something other than discus. When you feel you're ready, try to keep a school of cardinal tetras alive. Only then should you attempt discus.

Tim

Spot on! This is the only way to cycle a discus tank - no discus. Cardinals and Rummy Nose tetra's are the Discus aquarium Canary's. Get a school of these fish to thrive and your tank is ready. If these fish start to die - for any reason - it's a warning that something is wrong. This will be true long before Discus show signs of stress.

The experts that write in this forum are knowledgeable enough to keep Discus by themselves. For the rest of us, I keep a school of tetras (cardinals and rummy nose) and observe them like a hawk. Their health tells me I have a good tank for Discus. And when feeding beef heart - they are fantastic scavengers - the left over bits never make it to the floor of the aquarium.

[Bela]

Just to add my experience to the bonfire. I've done fishless cycles several times. IMO, the 2 chief benefits are 1) the system being cycled will not be exposed to any contaminants from the cycling fish (no parasites or bacteria), and 2) no live fish are subjected to the stress of ammonia and nitrite spikes, which often kills one or more of the cycling fish.

I recently cycled a new 70G Oceanic Tech with a 20G sump (10G running capacity). I've used several cultures in the past and have come to the conclusion that most do the job just fine.

My recent experience was this:

I used Stress Zyme (it's an API product I think, worked fine) and generic non-scented household ammonia as a food source for the bacteria (I've found the cheapest stuff is usually the best - just ammonia without any additives).

30 Oct 09: completed tank setup and filled with water, got parameters (ph/kh/gh/temp) where I wanted them. I cycled at around 86 deg F, which will be the operating temp of the tank.
31 Oct: dosed the tank with recommended amount of Stress Zyme, added ammonia sufficient to yield around 4 mg/l.
Daily: Each day I checked ammonia level in tank and re-dose up to 3 - 4 mg/l. Checked nitrite levels (I'm looking for a nitrite spike). During first week ammonia ran down to 1 mg/l over 24-48 hours, little nitrite detected (< 0.03 mg/l).
8 Nov: ammonia = 1 mg/l, nitrite = < 0.3 mg/l, re-dosed Stress Zyme (per product recommendation), dosed ammonia up to 3 - 4 mg/l.
9 Nov: ammonia = 1mg/l, nitrite = 0.5 mg/l. Dosed 50 ml ammonia. Started testing for nitrate at this point because the nitrite level was beginning to climb (i.e., there was now a nitrite food source for the second culture of bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate). Note though, IMO it is not necessary to test for nitrate at all once you begin to detect it, the important thing is to keep on testing for nitrite, because the tank is cycled once you start getting zero nitrite readings, together with zero ammonia readings - regardless of the level of nitrate, which will be high.
10 Nov: ammonia = 0, nitrite = 1.5 mg/l, nitrate = 12 mg/l. Dosed 50 ml ammonia.
13 Nov: Ammonia = 0, nitrite = >3 mg/l, nitrate = 60 mg/l. Dosed 50 ml ammonia.

Let me spare you the blow-by-blow here, you can see the pattern starting. The daily readings from 14 Nov through early Dec showed a steady pattern: Ammonia = 0, nitrite = > 3 mg/l (ranging up to >30 mg/l, test kit doesn't distinguish much at high concentrations of nitrite, as this level would be fatal to fish anyway), nitrate steadily climbing, though I did a 50% water change 21 Nov to cut out some of the nitrate and keep algae growth down. I dosed 50 ml ammonia each day, and re-dosed the Stress Zyme at 21 Nov per product directions.

Now comes the fun part, when the nitrite falls off to zero and the tank is cycled:

3 Dec: Ammonia = 0, nitrite = 30+ mg/l, nitrate = 100+ mg/l.
5 Dec: Ammonia = 0, nitrite = 30+ mg/l, nitrate = 100+ mg/l.
6 Dec: Ammonia = 0, nitrite = 0, nitrate = 100+ mg/l. (Re-tested twice to be sure.) DONE. One cycled tank and sump with NO dead or stressed fish, and NO parasitic or bacterial contamination in my new tank!

At this point I did 90% water changes for 3 consecutive days, dosing 50 ml ammonia each day to keep feeding the bacteria cultures, and testing daily to be sure the bacteria continued to clear ALL of the ammonia through the full cycle into nitrate by the following day (which it did). Until the day I was able to pick up the fish for the tank I kept dosing with ammonia up to approx 1 mg/l to be sure my bacteria had food. The night before stocking with fish I did a 90% water change and added no ammonia.

Note, I ran my lighting on the same schedule I intended to use for my fish. I don't know if it makes much or any difference, but I wanted the tank to operate during the cycling process as close to the intended use as possible (temp, light type and duration, hardness, ph, etc.). Why make my bacteria get used to a change? Anybody have any data on whether or to what extent lighting matters?

My experience this past Fall was typical for me. First, it worked, and second, it took much longer than I liked (I think I'm a typical aquarist this way, I've little patience). In my experience the first bacterial culture (which converts ammonia to nitrite) gets a foothold fairly fast, but the second (which converts nitrite to nitrate) takes a long time. I am always amazed at how FAST the second culture finally gets its footing and clears out the nitrite though - from fatally high to zero overnight.

Now I must humbly apologize for droning on and on like this, but if you've read this far . . . then I hope you found something interesting or useful!

Cheers - KW

[David Rose]

Hi Smallfin,

Glad things are progessing well for you.

Happy New Year!
David

[Eddie]

Great post Bela, very informative!

Take care,

Eddie

[diskus24.de]

My experience this past Fall was typical for me. First, it worked, and second, it took much longer than I liked (I think I'm a typical aquarist this way, I've little patience). In my experience the first bacterial culture (which converts ammonia to nitrite) gets a foothold fairly fast, but the second (which converts nitrite to nitrate) takes a long time. I am always amazed at how FAST the second culture finally gets its footing and clears out the nitrite though - from fatally high to zero overnight.


Nitrosomonas, the bacteria responsible for turning ammonia into Nitrite, splits itself every 20 minutes or so.
Nitrobacter, the bacteria responsible for turning Nitrite into Nitrate splits itself every 24 hours or so.

So it takes far much longer to establish a culture of Nitrobacter large enough to deal with the accumulating products the step befor is already steadyly producing.

Regards, Rudolf

[smallfin]

Thanks Bella
Yes I'm going insane waiting for the Nitrite to drop. So it is very reasuring to read your pot and know that I just have to wait and everything is still going to plan.

I'm on holidays at the moment and wan't to just get some fish in there to play with...Hopfully not too much longer.

Thanks for everyones input.

[smallfin]

Todays readings
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite= 1
Nitrate = 5

[Bela]

Hang in there! As Diskus24 wrote, the second family of bacteria take a long long time to divide as compared to the first family. You'll get there, and then you'll send us pictures of your fish! (which reminds me, I should do the same.)

[Ben75]

Hi Smallfin,
Mate this is a great thread, reading through all the posts has
been very informative, thanks for the updates of your progress.
Your fish will appreciate all the effort you have put in to doing it right.
Kind Regards,

[smallfin]

Thanks Bela, Thanks Ben, yes it has turned out to be full of info.

So things are happening now. I watched the Nitrates drop over the last day and a bit down to a reading of 0 this morning. Yay!
The next stage is to redose with ammonchlor until it can reduce ammonia down to 0 in 24hrs.. My current reading of nitrates is 10. It was around 15- 20 a few weeks ago then sitting at 5 for a while and last few tests have been 10. Do I need to wait untill the Nirtates drop to 0 before redosing?

Anyone have any idea how long this next stage takes?

As Bela said, waited a long time for Nitrites to drop but when they did I could pretty much get a different reading every few hours as it was reducing quickly.

Thanks again everyone for you input.
Now to start getting ready for some fish.

[David Rose]

Did you mean your Nitites and Ammonia are now zero? Nitrates will not go down during your cycling process.


If your ammonia and nitrites are zero then redose as per the instructions up to 5ppm.

The goal is that when you redose and the ammonia stock solution you added is used up within a 24hr period, your filter has been fully cycled and has enough of a bacteria colony to support your fish.

Do you have your discus picked out and ready to be picked up or delivered? If not, you will need to redose to provide an ammonia source from your stock solution the same as above and when you're ready to introduce your fish do a 100% water change before adding fish.

Won't be long now!

[David Rose]

This last phase should go pretty quickly as in a matter of days.

[smallfin]

Hi David

Hmm not going as quickly as I hoped. I redosed up to 5 and it took about 2.5 days for the ammonia to get to 0 I redosed again after that and it has been 3 almost 3.5 day this time but just keep getting a reading of 1 which it has been stable for the last coulple of days. I Just checked Nitrites and they are 0

I didn't have the light on over the last few days, not sure if that would make a difference or not but I really want this tank to be ready soon. I have ordered some beautiful fish and want to make sure this is ready before I give the ok for delivery of fish. Would more light or more air stones help?

It seems to drop ammonia from 5 to 1 easy enough but takes a long time to get to 0 each time. I'm right in assuming you do wait until it reaches 0 before adding more stock solution or am I meant to add it each day regardless if it made it to 0 in 24 hrs or not?

Thanks again for everyones help. The support is definately helpful.

Cheers
Smallfin

[Elite Aquaria]

Your best bet is to go with a fish-less cycle. If you can't find pure ammonia without surfactants then go with one of the commercial based products. Also be patient a fish-less cycle can take 4-6 weeks.

Here is what I use...

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/eliteaquaria/m_002-3.jpg

[David Rose]

Hi David

Hmm not going as quickly as I hoped. I redosed up to 5 and it took about 2.5 days for the ammonia to get to 0 I redosed again after that and it has been 3 almost 3.5 day this time but just keep getting a reading of 1 which it has been stable for the last coulple of days. I Just checked Nitrites and they are 0

I didn't have the light on over the last few days, not sure if that would make a difference or not but I really want this tank to be ready soon. I have ordered some beautiful fish and want to make sure this is ready before I give the ok for delivery of fish. Would more light or more air stones help?

It seems to drop ammonia from 5 to 1 easy enough but takes a long time to get to 0 each time. I'm right in assuming you do wait until it reaches 0 before adding more stock solution or am I meant to add it each day regardless if it made it to 0 in 24 hrs or not?

Thanks again for everyones help. The support is definately helpful.

Cheers
Smallfin


Hi Smallfin,

I kept my light on the same as I would with fish in the tank (8-10hrs). What are your other readings such as pH etc? I suspect your pH has dropped below 7.0, so you may need to raise your pH up to 7.0 or greater.

Take care,
David

[dbfzurowski]

anyone ever tried using gold fish? I'll be moving in a couple of months and will be setting up a new tank. From what i've heard gold fish are very messy fish so it might be a good natural source of ammonia.

[David Rose]

Smallfin is using a pure source of Ammonia.

IMO you have sufficient "good" bacteria to add fish when ready after a 100% water change given you have started with 5ppm and down to zero a couple of times now. As mentioned earlier, pH lower than 7.0 will slow the process.

Please post all your water parameters as soon as possible.

pH
Ammonia
Nitrites
Nitrates

Also, how many fish are you planning to add to start?

Thanks!
David

[smallfin]

Hi David

Yes your right the Ph has dropped to 6 I checked it 9 days ago and it was more like 7.2 which I thought was good and hadn't cheked since until this morning. Other Readings

Ph = 6
Ammonia = 1
Nitrite = 0
Nitrates = 10

And of course the only thing I have in the cupboard is to lower ph (when I started it was right up there at 7.6) I guess I should get some to raise it then asap. I am running lights as standard now too.

I am getting 6 x 10/12cm Blue Diamonds and was hoping to get them Thursday evening.
I'm not sure if useing api stresscoat at first could be a way to go as it also lowers ammonia or would that prevent the filter from doing the job and defeat the purposse.

When it does finish and I do the first water change. It says to use dechorinated water. Is it fine to use a hose and just use tap water and 'Safe' or similar to de-chlorinate? I assume it doesn't need to be aged first time round.

Thanks soo much again.

[David Rose]

Using tap water directly would depend on your whether your pH changes over 24-48hrs. If you haven't tested for pH shifts, do so as soon as possible putting tap water in a clean container and aerate for 24 hrs, then test pH. continue to aerate 24 more hours and test again. If it changes significantly, you will need to age your water.

As for Stress Coat, you won't need it given you will be doing a 100% water change before adding fish and your newly cycled filter will do the rest.

To get ready for Thursday... ideally if you can raise you pH soon, do so ...if you can't, let it go the way it is at 1ppm until you're ready to do your 100% water change on Thursday before your fish come. You may need to add a little of your stock solution if you drop to zero again, but I would only bring it up to 1 ppm.

Let me know about your pH stability of your tap water above, but in short, I think you're fine for getting your discus Thursday.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[David Rose]

PS: Typically, if your pH is stable, you would just add Safe to your tank or similar to dechlorinate your water just before filling. I use a garden hose to fill my tanks and it isn't an FDA rated, but I don't let water sit in the hose between water changes to where it could be contaminated depending on what the hose is made of. Some folks prefer to be safer using a vinyl hose or FDA rated for drinking water usage.

[neon]

I just started a new 55gal tank. This how I did mine I used ro water no tap and added tetra SafeStart and add 20 neon tetras. Also I did not lose any fish this was over a week ago. :angel:

[Eddie]

I just started a new 55gal tank. This how I did mine I used ro water no tap and added tetra SafeStart and add 20 neon tetras. Also I did not lose any fish this was over a week ago. :angel:

20 neons in a 55 isn't going to establish a bio-bed sufficient for a school of discus. Also, using fish to cycle a filter is dangerous due to the introduction of possible parasite/bacteria. A healthy neon can = a dead discus.

Eddie

[smallfin]

Thanks again for you help
I ducked home at lunch today via the pet shop and added some ph up and brough it back to 7.4. Came home tonight and ammonia has dropped a little more but not quite to 0 maybe by morning.
I will start monitoring PH as I first thought my ph was high reasonably stable from my first few tap water tests but I am now not thinking this is the case.
I was susspicious the other day when I added some aged water to my other small tank out in the garage and it looked different and the fish behaved differently so I checked ph and it was much lower than had normally been.
I started to wonder if the fact I used a hose a few times that had been left in the sun was the cause as other times I have filled the bucket straight from the tap (no hose) So interesting you have mentioned that. For this tank currently cylcling i have the drinking water hose (more because I like the colour blue it came in but also thought it may ahave better material quality for fish use,.

Keen to find out what my ph is doing and then I'm bound to start searching SD for info on stabilising ph. I will take some readings and let you know.

Do you think from now on only dose ammonia to 1 or should I go to 4 or 5 for the next couple of days.

Also with doing the 100% water change is it ok to drain to the point of the canister filter intake and then add some, drain some more ,add some and drain again to replace the last bit on the bottom to avoid messing around with filter? or should it really be a drain all and wipe down all surfaces etc and fill with completely new water. Does that not disturb the filter?

I think I would have pulled all my hair out by now if you guys hadn't been so helpful and supportive.

Thanks
Smallfiin

[David Rose]

When you age water and pH changes over 24-48hrs, it tells you that your water source has a high level of CO2 content. When you aerate your water it agitates the water to speed up the process which gases off the CO2 and your pH will stabilize to your true pH reading. You may or may not have to age 48hrs depending on how much of a shift occurs between 24 and 48hrs of aging.

You probably already know that you need to heat your aged water to match what your tank temperature as well.

In short, Discus do not like sudden shifts in water quality, whether it is pH, temperature or TDS.

[David Rose]

If your ammonia level drops to zero today, I would dose to 4ppm and wait to see how quickly it goes to zero over the next day now that you can keep your pH at 7.0 or higher.

Keep in mind we need to determine what your true stabilized pH reading is as soon as possible. We need to have pH readings out of the tap, at 24hrs and again at 48hrs all from the same sample of tap water.

In regards, to your 100% WC on Thursday... turn off your canister, drain your tank, wipe down, refill with aged water. As for the canister, I would disconnect, gently squeeze water from sponges and gently rinse media for a few seconds with non-chlorinated water, put it back together, reconnect, and start up. Your way, would be fine too, but you may use more water that way. Some folks may not even bother doing anything with the filter given it shouldn't have enough ammonia content to impact at a harmful level realtive to the size of canister and your aquarium.

[David Rose]

Did you get your discus today SF? I hope all is well.

Take care,
David

[smallfin]

Hi David

I decided to put the delivery off till Monday. That way I can spend the weekend doing the WC, cleaning the tank and filter and get my aging water drum set up and feel ready.
Now that I have raised the ph the ammonia is reducing more quickly. It was almost down to 0 this morning when I checked so I redosed and should be within the next 24hrs I think. At least this way I will also feel like I have completed the full cycle and not be as stressed about it.

I have been taking some readings of my ph in a bucket thats been aging for my smaller tank and will post them soon but so far fairly steady.

Thanks for the follow up and will let you know how I go. Is there anything I should specifically NOT DO when I clean out the filter that would distroy the bacteria?

Smallfin

[David Rose]

Any sponges, I just squeeze them once to remove as much water as I can. The media such as ceramic rings or similar, I just gently rinse in non-chlorinated water. I wouldn't wipe the inside of the parts or chambers at all with the filter. Just put it back togethr and add some of your aged water as needed to prime.

Once you have everything together and running for 1/2 hour or so, test your tank water again to be safe. Add some Prime or Safe if need be. Depending on your test kit, Prime will give you a false ammonia reading (NH4 non-toxic).

[smallfin]

Yay!

I can officially now say my tank has finally finished it 'fishless cycle'
Ammonia down from 4/5 to 0 within 24hrs.

I now have the weekend to get my ageing tub together and clean everything ready for the arrival of my 6 Beautiful Blue Diamonds from Rod.
Can't wait!

Thanks again for everyones input.

:):)Smallfin :):)

[melon9]

Sorry, just a crazy idea of mine. Can I just add poo from another fish tank? I am also trying to cycle a fishless tank, instead of having to buy the ammonia stuff or using urine or milk, make full use of what is already available at home.

[David Rose]

Sorry, just a crazy idea of mine. Can I just add poo from another fish tank? I am also trying to cycle a fishless tank, instead of having to buy the ammonia stuff or using urine or milk, make full use of what is already available at home.

You could I suppose, but it wouldn't be a fishless cycle. Using fish or their poo is inviting problems from the donor...even if they are healthy at the time.

[smallfin]

Here are some photos of my new fish from Rod.
6 Blue Diamonds.
I will take some more after they have settled in more. I better turn the light off again as they are not enjoying the brightness yet.

[smallfin]

I would really like to thank everyone for their imput and ideas regarding a fishless cycle. Although at times it was frustrating with how long it was taking and getting to the point of almost giving up, I'm glad I stuck to it made it through to the end. I will have to go back over my time records and post readings at a later time but I think in short it was about 5 weeks.

I still need to monitor my ph over the next week or so but for now I can enjoy my new fantastic fish and know that I'm giving them the best start that I can in a clean tank with a bio filter without disease.

I would really like to thank members such as David Rose who have been incredibly helpful offering step by step advise and support which has been invaluable. It is members like David that make SD the great place that it is.

Thanks again to all and for those interested I will post my summary of readings for others to compare against going through the same thing.
Credit to the Ammonchlor ammonia product and instructions as the process was pretty much they eay the described it.

Finally got my fish
makes for one happy Smallfin :D

[David Rose]

Glad to be of help and appreciate the compliment. Can't wait to see pictures of your new discus bud! :p

[melon9]

You could I suppose, but it wouldn't be a fishless cycle. Using fish or their poo is inviting problems from the donor...even if they are healthy at the time.

Thk u David.