Can you keep plants w/ T8's ? ?

[caparzo]

I have a 92g. Corner tank using 2 30w T8's are there strains of plants that can utilalize this light or should I be using T5's to have any kind of luck with live plants ?

[stephcps]

I use a lot of T8s on my tanks and they are planted. I like to spend my money on fish!! I grow crypts, moss, ludwigia does OK not stellar, pennywort does pretty well. Lots of low light plants out there.

[discusjoe27]

I've used t8 and grown plants. matter of fact I grow plants in my 240 gallon tank I use to have with t12's. I guess it just comes down to what plants will grow with the lights you have.

[Harriett]

Crypts do very well with T8s, as do anubias.
Harriett

[caparzo]

thanks you guys.

[lemondiscus]

I made my own hood and stuffed it with T8s.... I am at the low end of mid/moderate lighting and those plants all work for me!

Wattage and Luminens are whats important... not the bulb type... You get more power for the size from a T5 than you do a T8 and T12 respectively... T5 bulbs pack more luminens per bulb than T8s and T12s.... Even though the wattage goes down per type (ie: T5s take less watage and output more luminens than a T8 and T12 respectively...)

Hope that helps...

[bs6749]

I made my own hood and stuffed it with T8s.... I am at the low end of mid/moderate lighting and those plants all work for me!

Wattage and Luminens are whats important... not the bulb type... You get more power for the size from a T5 than you do a T8 and T12 respectively... T5 bulbs pack more luminens per bulb than T8s and T12s.... Even though the wattage goes down per type (ie: T5s take less watage and output more luminens than a T8 and T12 respectively...)

Hope that helps...

Actually, that's not quite true.

First off, you don't GET power from the bulbs, wattage refers to how much power is CONSUMED to operate the fixture and bulbs. Secondly, bulb type is EXACTLY what matters as you will see from reading.

Lumens, or the brightness of the bulb is important, however, if you don't have the right spectrum/temperature (measured in K/kelvin) then the bulbs are pretty much useless. Generally, when comparing the same type of bulb (T8 to T8, T5 to T5, etc.) the lumens increase as wattage increases. Different style bulbs have different characteristics which can make them appealing over other style bulbs. T8 and T12 bulbs are readily available and are relatively cheap, however the quality of light they put out is poor (though still workable if you have lots of them) and the amount of energy required to operate them will far surpass the cost of T5 bulbs, which are far more efficient (they produce more lumens per watt, which is what lemondiscus was getting at). T5's also stay relatively cool, which is a result of most of the energy being converted into light rather than thermal/heat energy like T8 and T12 bulbs, which makes those less efficient. T5's also have better depth penetration into the water, which is definitely something you should consider as a 92g tank is a rather tall tank and would benefit from having T5's overhead.

Most plants do well between a temperature range of 5,000K to 10,000K so the bulb that you need for plant growth should be in this range. Actinic bulbs (those blue bulbs seen in saltwater setups that make the colors of the fish "pop") are useless to plants because the spectrum of the bulbs lie outside the useable range of plants. No matter how many watts the bulb is rated for it is still useless to plants. Run 50W or 1000W with actinics and all you are doing is spinning your meter...maybe heating the water very inefficiently at the least.

Hopefully I was able to help somewhat. If you have any more questions I'd be glad to help you out.

[lemondiscus]

Actually, that's not quite true.

First off, you don't GET power from the bulbs, wattage refers to how much power is CONSUMED to operate the fixture and bulbs. Secondly, bulb type is EXACTLY what matters as you will see from reading.

Lumens, or the brightness of the bulb is important, however, if you don't have the right spectrum/temperature (measured in K/kelvin) then the bulbs are pretty much useless. Generally, when comparing the same type of bulb (T8 to T8, T5 to T5, etc.) the lumens increase as wattage increases. Different style bulbs have different characteristics which can make them appealing over other style bulbs. T8 and T12 bulbs are readily available and are relatively cheap, however the quality of light they put out is poor (though still workable if you have lots of them) and the amount of energy required to operate them will far surpass the cost of T5 bulbs, which are far more efficient (they produce more lumens per watt, which is what lemondiscus was getting at). T5's also stay relatively cool, which is a result of most of the energy being converted into light rather than thermal/heat energy like T8 and T12 bulbs, which makes those less efficient. T5's also have better depth penetration into the water, which is definitely something you should consider as a 92g tank is a rather tall tank and would benefit from having T5's overhead.

Most plants do well between a temperature range of 5,000K to 10,000K so the bulb that you need for plant growth should be in this range. Actinic bulbs (those blue bulbs seen in saltwater setups that make the colors of the fish "pop") are useless to plants because the spectrum of the bulbs lie outside the useable range of plants. No matter how many watts the bulb is rated for it is still useless to plants. Run 50W or 1000W with actinics and all you are doing is spinning your meter...maybe heating the water very inefficiently at the least.

Hopefully I was able to help somewhat. If you have any more questions I'd be glad to help you out.

Yes that is what I was trying to say... lol... exactly how you put that although I seem to not have worded that at ALL as well as you did! lol

And thank you I forgot all about the temp of the bulb! And yes that IS just as important if not more than anything else for the reasons stated (I run 6700 bulbs myself).

I also missed the 92 gallon so yes that is a tall tank and the T5s do penetrate better in deeper tanks.

[caparzo]

Ok.. great, you've very much validated my thoughts of conforming to T5's. Now .. What medium is best for plants? I'm using pea gravel purchased from Hom Depot to match the slate of my bar top. I like the look of it but I'm not sure this makes the best plant medium.. I have pics posted in my album if you wanna check it out. I still consider myself a nube. So any help is apprecieated. TIA

[lemondiscus]

Ok.. great, you've very much validated my thoughts of conforming to T5's. Now .. What medium is best for plants? I'm using pea gravel purchased from Hom Depot to match the slate of my bar top. I like the look of it but I'm not sure this makes the best plant medium.. I have pics posted in my album if you wanna check it out. I still consider myself a nube. So any help is apprecieated. TIA

IMO pea gravel is rough and can injure some fish... also for plants its not that great and easy to gather waste in it...

I prefer sand as a substrate and a few friends of mine swear by Eco-Complete even though it is MUCH more than sand... They do have better luck with plants than I do...

[zamboniMan]

I layer my substrate with play sand, peat moss, miracle grow, and diatomacious earth. I also use substrate heaters in most of my planted tanks. Alot of people don't like them but I find 2 things when using them.
1. The tank temperature is more stable because the substrate is warm all the way through as well as the water.
2. The plants look better than the plants with the same lighting, substrate, and bioload than the plants without them (for instance the red plants are a deeper red).

As for lighting I use either the standard T8's (multiple per tank) or Power Compacts (usually avaliable refurbished on Ebay for less).
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+9654+12109&pcatid=12109

Though I will probably switch to T5's soon if for no other reason than it's slightly cheaper to power them.

Hope that helps,

Josh

[caparzo]

Ok.. when I vacuum the gravel I don't get too close to the plants, I leave a little waste for them to eat near the base of each plant.. (is that the wrong way to think about it ?) I'm more concerned about the metel ring some stores use to bunch the plants together.. Those should be removed right ?

[bs6749]

Ok.. great, you've very much validated my thoughts of conforming to T5's. Now .. What medium is best for plants?

It all depends on what type of plants you want. Some plants like mosses, Java fern, and anubias (many types of anubias) actually prefer to not be buried by a substrate. Rather, these plants prefer to be anchored to a piece of driftwood or rock. You can place them in a substrate, however you should only partially bury the rhizome (where applicable).

Some plants like many swords would benefit greatly from a nutrient rich substrate such as Eco-Complete, however, this substrate is dark colored and is not a good idea in a discus tank if you are trying to get bright and vibrant colors of your fish to show. They will darken to try to blend in with the surroundings. A compromise would be to take larger terra cotta pots and plant in those and use a plant substrate like Eco-Complete, Flourite, ADA Amazonia, etc. I've done this and it works well, however you will need to vac up the substrate that your plecos will eventually fling out of the pots.

A good substrate would be pool filter sand as it is light colored and it isn't very abrasive. The granules are also large enough that it won't compact and suffocate the plants, which can happen with play sand and finer grained substrates. It is also light colored and your discus (should you have any) won't darken. Pool filter sand does not provide anything to the plants and you will have to dose for a carbon source, a potassium source, and probably a nitrogen source as well, in addition to micronutrients on occasion. Planted tanks can definitely be beautiful but they are quite an undertaking and can get expensive fast.

[lemondiscus]

It all depends on what type of plants you want. Some plants like mosses, Java fern, and anubias (many types of anubias) actually prefer to not be buried by a substrate. Rather, these plants prefer to be anchored to a piece of driftwood or rock. You can place them in a substrate, however you should only partially bury the rhizome (where applicable).

Some plants like many swords would benefit greatly from a nutrient rich substrate such as Eco-Complete, however, this substrate is dark colored and is not a good idea in a discus tank if you are trying to get bright and vibrant colors of your fish to show. They will darken to try to blend in with the surroundings. A compromise would be to take larger terra cotta pots and plant in those and use a plant substrate like Eco-Complete, Flourite, ADA Amazonia, etc. I've done this and it works well, however you will need to vac up the substrate that your plecos will eventually fling out of the pots.

A good substrate would be pool filter sand as it is light colored and it isn't very abrasive. The granules are also large enough that it won't compact and suffocate the plants, which can happen with play sand and finer grained substrates. It is also light colored and your discus (should you have any) won't darken. Pool filter sand does not provide anything to the plants and you will have to dose for a carbon source, a potassium source, and probably a nitrogen source as well, in addition to micronutrients on occasion. Planted tanks can definitely be beautiful but they are quite an undertaking and can get expensive fast.

As an experienced novice (sorry for the oxymoron lol) I have to say you are very thorough in your explanations and very attentive to every detail regarding plants and planted tanks! I hear MUCH experience coming from your words...

Thank you for being as clear and thorough as you are! I have been doing planted Discus tanks for several years so I know what I am doing, but only an idiot knows it all and everyone has room to grow... So I keep reading and I try to enhance what I am doing now... I have already got ideas from many of your posts! I just wanted to pass that on to you! :)

[caparzo]

I like the catagory you've used here.. I would also consider myself an experienced novice. Meaning: I know enough to know that I don't know. Check out my album to see my fish and set up.. I didn't hear any other concern about the metel ring question I was asking about? I saw one (a metel ring) that I missed removing the other day between the glass and the pea gravel.. I will remove it tonight as I know a piece of metel can cause problems.. what kind of problems, I have no idea. Perhaps I will upgrade my lights and keep a mix of faux and live plants... I do also have a concern about Planaria ?? I was introduced to it the last time I bought Petco plants.. I have since used a copper sulfate solution to treat and I think I'm ok now. My next purchase will be an R/O system and I'm sure everyone will agree that is the smarter money for me at this point. Thanks for all of the input.. it is a lot to digest but I'm learning and I feel that is what an open forum is all about. I'm really glad I've joined here.

[bs6749]

The metal ring is most likely a lead weight and it can be planted in the substrate and removed after the roots have had a chance to take hold or it can remain there indefinitely. I have used those weights before on fast growing stem plants in a bare bottom tank. With no substrate to anchor the roots the plants would otherwise float to the surface if it weren't for the weight. Lead is nearly insoluble in water and shouldn't cause you any problems.

Also, avoid plants from Petco as they are most likely grown in greenhouses in the south part of the country. They are grown out of water or "emersed" and they have different leaves than they would if they were grown under water. Many aquatic plants have two leaf types, one for under water and one for above water (emersed growth). The plants may be healthy, but when you take them home and put them in your tank the emersed leaves will die as the plant grows its underwater leaves to adapt to its new environment. 90% of the time this causes the plants to die because the hobbyist is inexperienced and doesn't know how to care for the plants. Underwater leaves will form, however you will need to make sure that it has the nutrients and proper lighting otherwise the plant will die in a very short period of time (2 weeks or so). I strongly recommend purchasing plants from fellow hobbyists. A good site to look on is AquaBid ( www.aquabid.com ) There are many good sellers of quality plants there.

As far as planaria goes, they are usually associated with "dirty water" and are commonly the result of overfeeding. One of the best ways to get rid of them is by reducing the amount of food that you put into the tank and increase both the frequency and size of water changes in the tank.

[caparzo]

Stepped up size and frequency of WC's . i'll keep ya posted. THanks!