Need help fast

[moik]

Did a light PP treatment last night and now I have fish gasping at top the tanks..Tooo many fish have the same problem .Yes i did neutalize the PP and 100% water changes done.

[Eddie]

Did a light PP treatment last night and now I have fish gasping at top the tanks..Tooo many fish have the same problem .Yes i did neutalize the PP and 100% water changes done.

I am pretty sure that is all you can do. Now you just have to wait it out. You can add extra air and keep the lights off.

Was it the PP that caused the gasping? Why did you hit them with PP? Do the fish look burned, like fin damage?

Eddie

[kush]

Add an air stone or two? Sounds like low oxygen.

[moik]

I did a very light pp treatment..Just to clean them up ..I mean very LIGHT ,they were all playing aroud aND THE MATING RITUAL OF BOWING AT EACH OTHER DURING THE TREATMENT..could it be a secondary infection? Bacterial or other..This is disgusting...

[Eddie]

I did a very light pp treatment..Just to clean them up ..I mean very LIGHT ,they were all playing aroud aND THE MATING RITUAL OF BOWING AT EACH OTHER DURING THE TREATMENT..could it be a secondary infection? Bacterial or other..This is disgusting...

Them gasping at the surface is basically what was mentioned, low o2. Adding air and performing multiple water changes with aged water is all you can really do.

If you notice any other symptoms at all, it could be the initial phase of bacteria but I wouldnt jump the gun just yet. Clean water and air and see what develops. If you have to hit them with antibiotics, be prepared. Any Furan based antibiotic is my weapon of choice. Furanase or Furan-2.

best of luck Vince,

Eddie

[moik]

I have furan-2...I used pp many times with no problem..Never going to use PP again..

[brewmaster15]

Vince,

PP Burns the gill Surfaces and can these surfaces are important for oxygen transport.... You may have over done the PP... one thing you can do try to help sooth the irritated gills by using salt... 1 tablespoon per 3-5 gallons may help.



-al

[Eddie]

I have furan-2...I used pp many times with no problem..Never going to use PP again..

Sorry to hear Vince, PP is some tough stuff. The toxic level is too close to the therapuetic level. I also try to avoid using it but if a tank crashes, thats when I'll use it.

Good to hear you have the Furan-2. I'd also recommend having some salt to use in combination with the F-2.

Take care

Eddie

[moik]

never going to use it again..I did a very light treatment on my pairs..This is so disgusting seeing all this..Changed water again and added airstones and a little salt too.This is not how I wanted to wake up and get ready for work..Years of time and love going down the $hitter..

[Eddie]

never going to use it again..I did a very light treatment on my pairs..This is so disgusting seeing all this..Changed water again and added airstones and a little salt too.This is not how I wanted to wake up and get ready for work..Years of time and love going down the $hitter..

Dont be too hard on yourself Vince, we'll get through this. Andrew Soh told me that everything happens for a reason. I know exactly how you feel and everything is gonna be alright. ;)

Eddie

[moik]

I know ,but it is VERY hard dealing with this at the moment. Time will tell..wish I can go back in time right now.

[Eddie]

I know ,but it is VERY hard dealing with this at the moment. Time will tell..wish I can go back in time right now.

Dont give up....your fish wont. They are fighters and so are you!!!

Eddie

[moik]

Thanks Eddie,,Scared to see what comes out of this mess..
Dont give up....your fish wont. They are fighters and so are you!!!

Eddie

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie,,Scared to see what comes out of this mess..

Dont be....I got your back. ;)

Eddie

[moik]

Thanks so much,,never too old to learn something...MY way/the hard way
Dont be....I got your back. ;)

Eddie

[smiley]

dont worry mate...the entire simplydiscus family is behind you...

Mate, I suggest you to take your mind off the fishes and maybe hear some music...maybe it will make you feel better..I have felt at times that the more i look at a sick fish...the more tensed i get and the more mistakes/rapid changes i tend to do with the fish/tank (That's just me but I hope you understand my point)

Look at it this way...You have done your part by treating it well..Now give the fish some time...(Also ask yourself - Do we get fully healthy after we have had a cold/fever...it fades away slowly...)

And i am sure your fishes will make it through..Like Eddie said...They are fighters just like you

Take care and best of luck

[moik]

Thanks so much,,,I will have to see how it goes..I have to go to work and get my crew started with the day's task and try to leave early,,real early..The weather is rain all day ,kind of hard to do concrete work in this weather..My day is just getting better and better. Lets see what comes next!!!!
dont worry mate...the entire simplydiscus family is behind you...

Mate, I suggest you to take your mind off the fishes and maybe hear some music...maybe it will make you feel better..I have felt at times that the more i look at a sick fish...the more tensed i get and the more mistakes/rapid changes i tend to do with the fish/tank (That's just me but I hope you understand my point)

Look at it this way...You have done your part by treating it well..Now give the fish some time...(Also ask yourself - Do we get fully healthy after we have had a cold/fever...it fades away slowly...)

And i am sure your fishes will make it through..Like Eddie said...They are fighters just like you

Take care and best of luck

[jaykne]

Hey really sorry to hear about your fish, I use PP and know you have to be really carfull with it, if you don't do a high enough dose does nothing and if the dose is to high can kill. When I first starting using it I had a fish go belly up, and of course the best one in the tank, I couldn't beleave she was just floating and got the fresh water in there and she came back. I also had 2 others that were showing symtoms like yours and they were alright after 4 or five days, I am sure it probably damaged there gills but they can come back, mine did took a week but there gills healed back. Just do lots of water changes keep your head up and hope for the best, I think they will be alright, Larry.

[moik]

Thanks for the support...I can see that I am going to loose one WS female now,,the others are looking better but far from promising...I guess I have to wait and see..What a miserable situation.
Hey really sorry to hear about your fish, I use PP and know you have to be really carfull with it, if you don't do a high enough dose does nothing and if the dose is to high can kill. When I first starting using it I had a fish go belly up, and of course the best one in the tank, I couldn't beleave she was just floating and got the fresh water in there and she came back. I also had 2 others that were showing symtoms like yours and they were alright after 4 or five days, I am sure it probably damaged there gills but they can come back, mine did took a week but there gills healed back. Just do lots of water changes keep your head up and hope for the best, I think they will be alright, Larry.

[Chad Hughes]

So what were you cleaning them up from? Is it possible that the PP treatment made whatever you were cleaning up worse?

This is a prime example of why I avoid chemicals at all costs! :(

Sorry to hear of your troubles!

Best wishes!

[moik]

I have not done anything to the pairs for about a year atleast...Sometimes there are hidden problems that keep mated pairs from spawning..So I decided to do a very light treatment of pp to make them feel better with hopes of jump starting them spawning..Man was I wrong..Knock on wood have not had issues /disease for a while..Sometimes good intentions go bad....
So what were you cleaning them up from? Is it possible that the PP treatment made whatever you were cleaning up worse?

This is a prime example of why I avoid chemicals at all costs! :(

Sorry to hear of your troubles!

Best wishes!

[moik]

Well, VERY LIGHT PP treament was started at 5:30pm to 9:15 pm,,PP treatment nuetralized and a 100% water change done...Around 10:00pm all discus fed..11:00pm All food eaten and everything/discus look normal..Went to bed and awoken by my other half to this mess at 5:45am...After talking to Forrest and Kenny about dose of PP treatment and water quality being ruled out...One minor thing that turned into the main topic of concern,,the PP treatment knocked the bio back in the filters and an ammonia spike occurred causing this mess...This is just the theory for this situation. Additional comments welcomed...............Can not thank everyone enough for the help..

[Harriett]

The PP would have definitely knocked the hell out of the filter media, so depending on gallons of water per fish and how heavily with what food they were fed after the treatment, the water could have gone south quickly--overnite. When I did Andrew's suggested PP treatments for flukes in some juvies, I pulled all the filter media and started new floss into the clean fish/sterilized tank after each of the 3 treatments I did. I had to do 80% water changes 2 x a day and could have done more I suspect, because the water was going white and felt 'off' when I looked at it and the fish were subdued until I would do another water change. I had a heavy bubbler going in there and I was salting heavily at 100mg/100liters as he said to do. When the 8 day cycle of [3]] treatments was over, I loaded the filter with new media again and started adding double dose of STABILITY for a few days and things rapidly got sane again. The salt is really important. All of mine recovered nicely but it took a week or so. LOTS AND LOTS of clean water and salt.
I think I caused mild gill damage in one of the 12 but unsure on that. THeir gills are all perfect now and all is well, so hope that calms you somewhat?
Best regards,
Harriett

[David Rose]

Hi Vince,

Sorry to hear that the PP treatment went bad. I hope you see improvement very quickly with the clean water, extra air and salt approach. Hopefully it will only be a day or two at most for them to bounce back.

Out of curiousity what form of PP do you use? Oxy Clear type or Sears brand crystals for example?

Take care and best of luck!

[moik]

Thanks for the support..Oxy clear is what I used..
Hi Vince,

Sorry to hear that the PP treatment went bad. I hope you see improvement very quickly with the clean water, extra air and salt approach. Hopefully it will only be a day or two at most for them to bounce back.

Out of curiousity what form of PP do you use? Oxy Clear type or Sears brand crystals for example?

Take care and best of luck!

[moik]

Sounds like you are reading my mind..Trust me, I know alot better now..
The PP would have definitely knocked the hell out of the filter media, so depending on gallons of water per fish and how heavily with what food they were fed after the treatment, the water could have gone south quickly--overnite. When I did Andrew's suggested PP treatments for flukes in some juvies, I pulled all the filter media and started new floss into the clean fish/sterilized tank after each of the 3 treatments I did. I had to do 80% water changes 2 x a day and could have done more I suspect, because the water was going white and felt 'off' when I looked at it and the fish were subdued until I would do another water change. I had a heavy bubbler going in there and I was salting heavily at 100mg/100liters as he said to do. When the 8 day cycle of [3]] treatments was over, I loaded the filter with new media again and started adding double dose of STABILITY for a few days and things rapidly got sane again. The salt is really important. All of mine recovered nicely but it took a week or so. LOTS AND LOTS of clean water and salt.
I think I caused mild gill damage in one of the 12 but unsure on that. THeir gills are all perfect now and all is well, so hope that calms you somewhat?
Best regards,
Harriett

[shawnhu]

Well, VERY LIGHT PP treament was started at 5:30pm to 9:15 pm,,PP treatment nuetralized and a 100% water change done...Around 10:00pm all discus fed..11:00pm All food eaten and everything/discus look normal..Went to bed and awoken by my other half to this mess at 5:45am...After talking to Forrest and Kenny about dose of PP treatment and water quality being ruled out...One minor thing that turned into the main topic of concern,,the PP treatment knocked the bio back in the filters and an ammonia spike occurred causing this mess...This is just the theory for this situation. Additional comments welcomed...............Can not thank everyone enough for the help..

I would never run the bio-filter with a PP treatment. Your fish has ammonia burn resulting from the PP treatment killing off your bio-filter.

If a treatment is still effective after 4 hrs, with the bio-filter running, I wouldn't consider that a light treatment. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Let's hope that this is a learning experience for all the readers.

[moik]

Please clarify the second half of your response...Just a little blurry how to take it. I am just a mentally dead over this whole ordeal,,stupid me ,stupid me, stupid me....
I would never run the bio-filter with a PP treatment. Your fish has ammonia burn resulting from the PP treatment killing off your bio-filter.

If a treatment is still effective after 4 hrs, with the bio-filter running, I wouldn't consider that a light treatment. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Let's hope that this is a learning experience for all the readers.

[shawnhu]

moik,

What I meant by the latter half of my response is that I don't feel that the treatment used was a light treatment. I've used PP before, and a light treatment does not last the full 4 hrs, even with the bio-filter off. I wish I could provide concentration in ppm that I used, but I do not recall right this moment.

One has to realize that PP will interact with anything organic, and expense itself as it goes along. In most non-planted tanks, the abundance of organic material is in the bio-filter. If you had to neutralize the treatment even after 4 hrs of PP treatment, with the bio-filter running, I would tend to think that the treatment was more than light. I would consider it a strong treatment.

Finally, PP is a chemical that one must respect. It's been used by professionals for decades, and has proven very useful. There's still nothing like it in the market, and deserves a special place in our hobby. I've come to realize that mis-use of this chemical is deadly, and in many cases, very sad. I've only had to resort to this chemical twice, and I'm thankful for that. I wouldn't want to use it more often than necessary.

I hope this clears up my response.

Much luck to your fish's recovery. You have been given excellent advice thus far.

[David Rose]

I think Vince/Moik is being hard on himself here and somewhat modest as he really isn't new to Discus or using PP.

I suspect that Vince is diligent with his water changes and as such he may not have had a huge organic load so the concentration even though light had time to negatively impact the discus gill tissue and or bio-filter.

[moik]

I am not being argumentative,,I am very appreciative with all the help all of you have given. Trust me it was a light treament...The tank only had a pair of discus in it ,and the bio would not be that large to start with..I only made the water a very pale pink in the very beginning and I did not add MUCH AT ALL during the four hours...I am sure the organics in the tank have very well depleted the effectiveness of the PP..It did not take long for the pale pink color to turn yellow..The pairs were bowing at each other and doing other mating rituals during the whole treatment and of course looking for food..To me they were very good signs of not being stressed.The discus were fine after the water change and ate..That to me is a very good sign that everything was good..There were no fins or eyes showing ANY burns of any sort...The catch being the bio got knocked back/killed and the ammonia spike came into play..Stupid me,,stupid me......Hopefully this is more than just a learning experience me.
moik,

What I meant by the latter half of my response is that I don't feel that the treatment used was a light treatment. I've used PP before, and a light treatment does not last the full 4 hrs, even with the bio-filter off. I wish I could provide concentration in ppm that I used, but I do not recall right this moment.

One has to realize that PP will interact with anything organic, and expense itself as it goes along. In most non-planted tanks, the abundance of organic material is in the bio-filter. If you had to neutralize the treatment even after 4 hrs of PP treatment, with the bio-filter running, I would tend to think that the treatment was more than light. I would consider it a strong treatment.

Finally, PP is a chemical that one must respect. It's been used by professionals for decades, and has proven very useful. There's still nothing like it in the market, and deserves a special place in our hobby. I've come to realize that mis-use of this chemical is deadly, and in many cases, very sad. I've only had to resort to this chemical twice, and I'm thankful for that. I wouldn't want to use it more often than necessary.

I hope this clears up my response.

Much luck to your fish's recovery. You have been given excellent advice thus far.

[moik]

My water is changed every other day at the most extreme case.80% or better..I have been told by my fellow discus/angel buddy that I am too meticulas about keeping things clean..He said that I definitely do have a problem in that topic. Sad to say I am not new to discus or PP ,but there is apperantly room for improvement...It only takes the smallest detail to be overlooked and the biggest problem arise...I try to be very calculating in what I do..If I do not know something, I am the first person to ask questions..I am always willing to ask for advice in times of doubt and very willing to give advice.... Just my nature of taking on challenges and do not like the taste of accepting defeat..I can not say THANKS enough to evreybody for their help..
I think Vince/Moik is being hard on himself here and somewhat modest as he really isn't new to Discus or using PP.

I suspect that Vince is diligent with his water changes and as such he may not have had a huge organic load so the concentration even though light had time to negatively impact the discus gill tissue and or bio-filter.

[pcsb23]

Sorry to hear of your troubles, if I have read this correctly I suspect that you may have over done the H2O2 when you neutralised, this is all too easy to do. Best you can do is to do w/c's and add salt as Al says, I'd also drop the temp a little (80 to 82), slows them down and keeps more O2 in the water.

[moik]

I have lost one pair of discus ,but the other 3 pair look like they are going to be alright..The next couple days will tell...After talking to Kenny/Forrest we think it is an ammonia spike from the bio being knocked back..All clues lead to this theory.Thanks for your help.
Sorry to hear of your troubles, if I have read this correctly I suspect that you may have over done the H2O2 when you neutralised, this is all too easy to do. Best you can do is to do w/c's and add salt as Al says, I'd also drop the temp a little (80 to 82), slows them down and keeps more O2 in the water.

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear about the loss Vince. Hoping the rest pull through.

Take care,

Eddie

[moik]

I hope they do..Looks promising,,Thanks for all the help..
Sorry to hear about the loss Vince. Hoping the rest pull through.

Take care,

Eddie

[Eddie]

I hope they do..Looks promising,,Thanks for all the help..

Any time buddy, the last thing anybody should be doing, is being judgmental. Whatever happened, happened and now lets keep the fish alive.

Take care,

Eddie

[David Rose]

Finally, PP is a chemical that one must respect. It's been used by professionals for decades, and has proven very useful. There's still nothing like it in the market, and deserves a special place in our hobby.

Hi Shawn,

Francis posted some info about Benzalkonium Chloride that may warrant further research.

Best,

[moik]

Please elaborate..Not that I want or have a need for it ,but curious...
Hi Shawn,

Francis posted some info about Benzalkonium Chloride that may warrant further research.

Best,

[David Rose]

Here are a few items to check out:

Post #15

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=69984&highlight=Benzalkonium+chloride

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/ and subsequent page: http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products.html

http://www.quatchem.co.uk/benzalkonium-chloride-bkc-bac-.html (http://www.quatchem.co.uk/benzalkonium-chloride-bkc-bac-.html)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzalkonium_chloride

[moik]

Well I lost one pair of discus..So sad to loose any of them ..I value my discus so much and hate to see bad things happen to them..My discus are a very intrical part of my life.The other 3 pair are looking better and some spawning activity is happening..Hopefuly everything will work out..I appreciate all the help from all of you..Can not say thanks enough..One day ,I will be more than happy to return the favor. Also a very valuable lesson learned. Thanks again..

[tcyiu]

Sorry to hear about your loss. It's always the most shocking when one does not expect it. I mean, if the fish are really really sick, and you're trying to do diving catch, but they die any way, it's sad, but one is somewhat prepared. But when it happens out of the blue, it really hurts.

The one bright side to this is that the thread is now available for future readers to search. Maybe someone will learn something as a result.

If you don't mind, I want to re-raise an issue that Paul brought up earlier. I may have missed it, but did you say how you neutralized the PP?

Hydrogen Peroxide is normally used. Did you use that and how much? H2O2 in sufficient quantity is extremely harmful to fish.

Tim

[kaceyo]

Personally I doubt very much that the PP was the problem. I've used it for treatments that lasted up to 6hrs at 2ppm and never had it kill a biofilter in one treatment. It may lose a small % of it's effectivness, but that's it. Also, the fish were fine after the treatment, which wouldn't be the case if it were caused directly by the PP.
Paul's idea sounds much more likely. How much H2O2 was used to neutrilize the PP? If it was enough to kill the fish, it would have nuked the bio. Have you done an ammo test?
It also may have been something that hasn't even been considered yet.
Good luck with the remaining fish. I hate losing fish to a mistake.

Kacey

[moik]

I usually add the H202 slowly,little at a time til the water goes clear..Directly after that I start to drain the tank til they lay on their sides and directly fill the tank up..Time elasped between all that is under 10 minutes..did several PP treatments before with no problems at all..The treatment was very light and the discus ate and looked normal..They were not even show any signs of stress during it..Sorry to say I had no water test because I flushed 100% immediately seeing that there was something wrong..The ammonia spike is the only conclusion between Kenny,Forrest and I..Also could be something new like you said Kacey..
Personally I doubt very much that the PP was the problem. I've used it for treatments that lasted up to 6hrs at 2ppm and never had it kill a biofilter in one treatment. It may lose a small % of it's effectivness, but that's it. Also, the fish were fine after the treatment, which wouldn't be the case if it were caused directly by the PP.
Paul's idea sounds much more likely. How much H2O2 was used to neutrilize the PP? If it was enough to kill the fish, it would have nuked the bio. Have you done an ammo test?
It also may have been something that hasn't even been considered yet.
Good luck with the remaining fish. I hate losing fish to a mistake.

Kacey

[kaceyo]

It really doesn't sound like it was anything to do with the PP treatment to me. Ammonia doesn't sound right either since you did a 100% wc and in less than 24hrs your losing fish. It takes alot of ammo to kill fish that quick. I'd keep an eye on the ammo though since, if the biofilter is shot, you'll have big spikes.

Kacey