Why "Media" in a filter?

[GlennR]

I don't understand why media is important when you're doing 2 or more major water changes per week. It seems to me that good circulation and basic filteration would be sufficient.

So, would somebody please "fill me in" on what is important about media?

thanks,
Glenn

[Jhhnn]

Media is a place for beneficial bacteria to colonize and a place to trap the wastes they consume.

[David Rose]

and this media stabalizes your tank from highs/lows in between water changes consuming the ammonia/nitrites that would otherwise become harmful.

[GlennR]

So,

If your media area was "large enough" you would theoretically only need to add water to the tank to replace evaporation (except for the increased levels of minerals left behind from the evaporation)?

Also, what types of media is in a canister filter. Floss, sponges, plastic bio-balls things? Anything else? Some of it you leave alone & some of it you wash out when cleaning the cannister?

Does increased aeration help rid the tank of the ammonia, nitrates, nitrites or anything else? Or does it just increase circulation and O2 levels?

[zamboniMan]

So,

If your media area was "large enough" you would theoretically only need to add water to the tank to replace evaporation (except for the increased levels of minerals left behind from the evaporation)?

Also, what types of media is in a canister filter. Floss, sponges, plastic bio-balls things? Anything else? Some of it you leave alone & some of it you wash out when cleaning the cannister?

Does increased aeration help rid the tank of the ammonia, nitrates, nitrites or anything else? Or does it just increase circulation and O2 levels?


1. I guess in theory this could be true but it would depend on how much you feed and if your tank were planted.

2.In my canister filters I use seachem "Matrix", Activated Carbon (Almost Always) alot of people will tell you to avoid carbon but I like it. I also use filter floss, and different sized sponges.

3. You can't go wrong with increased aeration. You could infact hook medical grade O2 up to an airstone in your tank. I've only heard of this being done once and I think it's kind of overkill but it can be done. The more the surface tension of the water is broken the more oxygenated the water will become.

[Jhhnn]

So,

If your media area was "large enough" you would theoretically only need to add water to the tank to replace evaporation (except for the increased levels of minerals left behind from the evaporation)?

Also, what types of media is in a canister filter. Floss, sponges, plastic bio-balls things? Anything else? Some of it you leave alone & some of it you wash out when cleaning the cannister?

Does increased aeration help rid the tank of the ammonia, nitrates, nitrites or anything else? Or does it just increase circulation and O2 levels?

1 Water changes are still necessary to keep nitrate levels under control. Nitrates are the end product of aerobic bacteria consumption of wastes.

2 Lots of different media types are available. I use coarse sponge as the first stage, then ceramic biorings, Eheim substrat pro in the final stage. Lots of variations are possible. Those who want really clear polished water often use filter floss in the final stage. Bioballs are too coarse for most canister filters, I think, not having nearly the same surface area per volume as other media types. They're intended for wet/dry trickle filters.

3 I just rinse the media in a bucket of tank water occasionally, not my strongly chloramined tap water. I also use a prefilter sponge on the intake to trap most of the detritus, rinse it thoroughly in tap water once a week. The canister stays clean that way, requiring only (very) occasional attention. People who use activated charcoal or adsorption resins need to change them on a regular basis. How often, dunno.

4 Aeration keeps oxygen content high and the fish and the bacterial colonies active and healthy- not so much from the bubbles produced but from the surface agitation, the act of constantly circulating water to the surface. It also strips CO2 from the water, so planted tank enthusiasts aerate in a more controlled fashion, sometimes even add CO2 to their aquaria. Even in heavily planted tanks, successful discus keepers still make regular water changes, if less frequently.

[joanr]

John, you said heavily Chloramined water. Does Denver add chloramines to the water and also Chlorine? I called the Lab at the Utility Company here in the Springs and the woman told me they do not add chloramine and most areas of Colorado do not. Also I have seen a gradual raising of the PH out of the tap here in the Springs. In 2002 it came out at 6.8 to 7.0, Now it's always at 7.6 or higher. I wonder why?

[Jhhnn]

John, you said heavily Chloramined water. Does Denver add chloramines to the water and also Chlorine? I called the Lab at the Utility Company here in the Springs and the woman told me they do not add chloramine and most areas of Colorado do not. Also I have seen a gradual raising of the PH out of the tap here in the Springs. In 2002 it came out at 6.8 to 7.0, Now it's always at 7.6 or higher. I wonder why?

Definitely chloramines in Denver water, as per their website. Some suburbs have their own providers- don't know about them. Other providers nationwide are going in that direction because of stricter federal drinking water standards. And it's not like they make a big announcement about it, either, so it's smart for public water aquarists to use Prime or similar. Better safe than sorry.

As I understand it, providers are also delivering at higher pH because that inhibits bacterial growth as compared to near neutral water...

Denver Water website, a wealth of information-

http://www.denverwater.org/

[tcyiu]

If your media area was "large enough" you would theoretically only need to add water to the tank to replace evaporation (except for the increased levels of minerals left behind from the evaporation)?

Yes for ammonia and nitrites. Sorta, kinda, maybe for the nitrates. The reason is that the bacteria which consume the nitrates have VERY different requirements than the other bacteria. They are very slow acting and cannot tolerate oxygen or light.

You can set up a special filtration system to convert the nitrates (search for denitrifying or denitrification filters). The simpler way is to use plants. BTW, plants preferentially consume ammonia and nitrites. They consume nitrates after the others are exhausted.


Also, what types of media is in a canister filter. Floss, sponges, plastic bio-balls things? Anything else?

Depends on what you're trying to do. Different media do different things. You really can't just lump all media as one thing. Floss is a media that is good for mechanical filtration (i.e. trap floaties). Ceramic noodles etc. provide a huge amount of surface area per given volume. So they can hold more bacteria and are considered a biological filtration media. Sponges are sorta both mechanical and biological filtration media. Bio balls et al were designed to allow for maximum air interchange for wet dry filters (ppl have successfully used vinyl scrubbing pads). Somewhat useful in a canister, but not what they were designed for. Activated carbon and other resins are used for adsorption of bad chemicals.


Some of it you leave alone & some of it you wash out when cleaning the cannister?

When doing maintenance on the cannister, you rinse everything with water from the tank to get rid of the detritus (gunk). Why? Because any gunk you leave behind on the media will just decompose and add to the nitrogen cycle. Since you have the canister open, rid of the gunk. If you rinse with tap water that may have chlorine/chloramine, you will kill off a good percentage of your good bacteria leading to bad things. So rinse with tank water or aged water.


Does increased aeration help rid the tank of the ammonia, nitrates, nitrites or anything else? Or does it just increase circulation and O2 levels?

Bacteria that convert the nitrogen compounds in the fish pee and poo into NO4 (nitrite) and NO3 (nitrate) requires a lot of oxygen (O2) to do their job. Therefore keeping the water in the tank well aerated is important to the bacteria in a cannister filter since they can't get O2 from anywhere else. The fish also need the oxygen. Circulation is important so there are no pockets of "dead" water in the tank.

I know this may all sound complicated, but once you understand the nitrogen cycle, the various media and how to use them will suddenly make sense.

Hope this helps,

Tim

[joanr]

Definitely chloramines in Denver water, as per their website. Some suburbs have their own providers- don't know about them. Other providers nationwide are going in that direction because of stricter federal drinking water standards. And it's not like they make a big announcement about it, either, so it's smart for public water aquarists to use Prime or similar. Better safe than sorry.

As I understand it, providers are also delivering at higher pH because that inhibits bacterial growth as compared to near neutral water...

Denver Water website, a wealth of information-

http://www.denverwater.org/

Thanks John, that explains the higher PH around here. If the Springs started using Chloramines this year it may explain the traces of ammo I'm seeing in the test tube. Looks like I'll be calling them again and ordering the Seachem ammo test kits. Even if they are not adding chloramines perhaps there is certain amount of run-off downstream and we are seeing a bit of that? I use Prime but hopefully they are not adding chloramines.

[Jhhnn]

Modern water providers deliver a product that's been highly processed to be safe and appealing to the customer. What those processes really are, I don't have more than an inkling. Your provider may well use ammonia at some stage of the process, with traces left behind- dunno. It seems unlikely that ammonia would last long in a riverine environment unless the concentration were very high when it entered the waterway.

The whole system of water delivery to the Front Range is really quite complex, with a lot of collection and diversion of western slope colorado river water occurring at high altitude thru tunnels to reservoirs on our side of the divide.

Denver water combines that with South Platte river water, Colorado Springs combines theirs with Arkansas river water. The only reason I know much about it at all is that I worked on the Fryingpan Arkansas project back in the 70's, when I was a much younger man...

[joanr]

Interesting, we get our water from 2 different sources then. Anyhow, it's not the tap water, I just tested my 50 gal storage tank which I treat with Prime also when filling it up. Ammo is 0, so it's diminished bio in the tank, probably from the Clout I did last week and overzealous cleaning of the sponge media in the 2 AC 70's (300's) that I'm running. I've been adding Stability with each w/c and I'm not expecting the SafeStart in until Tuesday or Wed., I just ordered it yesterday. My question; with 50% w/c everyday and adding 2x Prime daily, they should be ok until it builds back up? I'd hate to have them get poisened now after curing from the other probs....

[Jhhnn]

I think the bio will recover rapidly and they'll be fine. Stay on top of it, and you should be alright.

[GlennR]

Thanks for all the info so far. It's not really too confusing, but I will need to decide what kind of filter to get and then decide what media to place in it.

My last tank (20+ years ago) was a 55 with a Magnum 330 using the micro filter full-time and an undergravel filter. I had 6 Discus from Jack Wattley, which did quite well for a number of years.

New tank will be a 120 with 10+ Discus and a couple of Angels. I know U/G filters aren't popular, but circulation under/through the substrate sure seems healthier than none in my mind. But I've got plenty of time to read & ask questions, and I'm wise enough to listen to the majority with something I've been away from for so long.

I'm glad you're all here.

Glenn

[tcyiu]

I know U/G filters aren't popular, but circulation under/through the substrate sure seems healthier than none in my mind.

I too was in the hobby 20 years ago and UGF was the state of the art back then. And they sure do keep the water clear.

But there are many very good reasons why it has been abandoned, the most important being that even with good gravel maintenance, once can never really clear out the detritus which will continue to decompose and release nitrates into the water. And there is always a non-trivial risk of anaerobic pockets forming under the gravel which can lead to sudden inexplicable fish death.

So you see, it's not a fashion/popularity thing. Filtration technology has gotten much better.

Tim

[GlennR]

What happens to the "detritus" that gets into the gravel w/o an undergravel filter? Seems it would really get nasty without oxygenated water flowing through it. I assume you just vacuum it really well and it doesn't build up?

Glenn

[Scribbles]

What happens to the "detritus" that gets into the gravel w/o an undergravel filter? Seems it would really get nasty without oxygenated water flowing through it. I assume you just vacuum it really well and it doesn't build up?

Glenn

Yep, lots of vacuuming. An undergravel filter just pulls the waste to the bottom to break it down. It's still there. Plus an undergravel filter is much harder to clean because you have to take everything out of the tank. It's much easier to clean a HOB or canister.

Chris

[joanr]

What happens to the "detritus" that gets into the gravel w/o an undergravel filter? Seems it would really get nasty without oxygenated water flowing through it. I assume you just vacuum it really well and it doesn't build up?

Glenn

Yoy may also decide to do a bare bottom tank, especially if you plan on growing out juvies. You can always add potted plants and some driftwood, but most of us, unless planning a heavily planted tank, go BB. Just a whole lot cleaner for the Discus, they produce an amazing amount of poo....

[Queenserpentine]

Its where you're bio-filter lives (beneficial bacteria) if you didn't have media in a filter the excess waste would just circulate in the water, not only that is stabilises the parameters of your water.

[fishorama]

^^With BB there aren't many surfaces for bacteria to grow on unlike UGF gravel. So you need sponges, ceramic rings etc for them & depending on size they can also hold larger detritus. Finer sponges, floss or micro pads help with tiny bits but even with prefilters etc my tank has visible particulates. Juveniles just eat & poo a lot.

We used UGF for many years but they IMO are just as hard to maintain well as gravel, sand is easier as more "stuff" sits on top. I started with a very thin layer of sand with discus & within a couple weeks I removed it. BB is not without it's issues though, I get diatoms & slime on all the glass that has to be wiped off at least weekly.

I use 2 HOB filters with prefilters, sponges & floss, clean the prefilters almost daily, the filters rinsed every 1-2 weeks alternately.

I had originally thought I wanted a planted discus tank with sand eventually but now I'm not so sure. I added 2 potted plants & the gravel catches a surprising amount of detritus.

I wish we'd have tried reverse UGF so stuff would go into the water column where the filter can get it rather than under the plates but the tubes are ugly too. Now most of our tanks have sand, & loaches not discus.

[tcyiu]

What happens to the "detritus" that gets into the gravel w/o an undergravel filter? Seems it would really get nasty without oxygenated water flowing through it. I assume you just vacuum it really well and it doesn't build up?

Glenn

Yup, it builds up and that's why gravel is not recommended either. When I was using gravel, I would do a deep cleaning every once in a while. I removed the fish and used my hand and turn everything over. This throws a LOT of muck into the water column and then I do a close to 100% WC. Then I throw DE filter on for good measure.

Now I have sand, I do the same thing just to make sure there are no anaerobic pockets. But generally, the detritus stays right on top of the sand.

With a UGF, you can't get underneath very easily without tearing down the whole set up (i.e. remove gravel etc.). That's where the potential problems are.

Someone mentioned a reverse UGF. I used to take the output of my cannister and route that down the uptake tubes on my UGF. It works, but at the end of the day, I prefer the output stream of the cannister to aerate the water (vs using a bubbler).

Tim

[GlennR]

It's been a while (a long while...), but I remember using my Magnum 330 with micron filter connected to a vacuum hose/tube (borrowed from my Python) with outflow into the U/G tube to super vac my the U/G & substrate. That allowed me to clean as long as necessary, til I'd see no more debris in the vac tube. I had a number of micron filters on hand, and always had a freshly bleached one ready.

I kept 6 juvies in a planted (lightly planted w/ a medium piece of driftwood) 55 using this method and never had any illness. I did 1-2 weekly 50%+ W/C's. I fed them live white worms from a cone feeder, hand fed sliced beefheart strips, and frozen shrimp.

They reached a point when I thought they were displaying mating acts. I decided to place a flower pot into the tank, and made a huge mistake...I bleached the pot and didn't leach it out well enough. The pH went through the roof and tried to save them with massive W/C's and removing the pot, but lost 4 of them. It was a very sad day. Two survived, but never bred. I didn't wonder why. :( They did quite well in a mixed tank with a few Angels for another few years until I stopped keeping fish.

I don't have any experience keeping them in a BB tank, so I don't know how much better they might have done. I will definitely begin with a BB when I set up a tank again, but I'm sure I'll eventually give in to the desire of loving a planted tank eventually.

[tcyiu]

...and made a huge mistake...I bleached the pot and didn't leach it out well enough. The pH went through the roof and tried to save them with massive W/C's and removing the pot, but lost 4 of them. ...

It wasn't the pH swing. It was the bleach. This is why I always recommend sterilizing with strong salt solutions. Even if not all the salt is flushed away, the fish will not be harmed.

If you ever do use bleach again, have some Sodium Thiosulphate handy. You can get these very cheaply at pool supply stores. This is a non-toxic, fast acting neutralizer of chlorine and chloramine. A very small amount will neutralize a lot of bleach.

It (or a related chemical) is the active ingredient in off-the-shelf de-chlorinators. The difference is the concentration. For essentially the same price as Prime, you can get a bottle of sodium thiosuphate that will last you an entire lifetime.

Tim

[GlennR]

Hmm?

I'd always assumed it was the pH. I just realized recently that bleach isn't an acid, but rather a strong base. I'd tried to neutralize it with baking soda along with the water chages.

It's always hard to fix things that you don't understand...

This time around I'll never-ever use bleach. I'll be armed with a pH & a TDS meter. And I'll have the benefit of having an ultra clean deep mountain well as a water source. If the Trout like it I'm sure the Discus will too.:)

Btw, (off Topic, but) I just saw a breeding pair of Leopard Discus & complete 29 gallon tank here for $225. I'd planned on getting juvies, but would have jumped on that deal if I had the time & space right now. I could easily be happy with a BB tank and constant feeding & WC's with a tank full of babies to raise.