Changing to Sand Substrate

[ILuvTropicalFish]

I have been lurking for a few days now and reading alot of GREAT info. Now I have a question. I have a 55 gallon tank with gravel substrate and artificial plants and caves and such. I have had one discus in this tank for well over a year and have recently added three more. The original one was too much of a bully and had to be moved until the newbies grow up a bit. I read some time ago that gravel was not good so I thinned it out quite a bit, but it is still in there.

I have 1 BN Pleco, 1 Cory Cat, 2 Unknown Cats (similar to Cory), and One upside down Cat....oh and one Killifish in the tank. The Killifish is just too big to go anywhere elso and is tolerating the higher temps just fine....I think he thinks he is a discus.

Anyway, I am convinced now from reading many posts that I need to change my substrate. I really do not want a BB, so I guess I need to use sand. I keep saltwater fish too and know how messy sand is when you add it to the water. Can you tell me how I should go about doing that? Do I need to move my discus temporarily?

Oh, and how do you "gravel vac" sand? Doesn't it get sucked out?

[DiscusFreakaZoid]

i used estes white marine sand. no need to rinse. i dumped it in like i was doing a number 2 and went in very nicely with no mess and didnt cloud the water

[zamboniMan]

Does marine sand have marine salt in it?

[jhamil]

Does marine sand have marine salt in it?
Well i use marine sand in my tank. To me it is the next best thing to BB tanks. It forms a tight surface (easy cleaning) and it reflects the light which helps in admiring the colors of the fish. As far as salt i don't think the content if any would matter, Remember adding salt to your tank has its pluses.
Read the Content table on the bag it will tell you if it has salt. For cleaning I use a syphon, yes, you will loose a bit of sand but it will not be significant.

[tcyiu]

Anyway, I am convinced now from reading many posts that I need to change my substrate.

Make the switch ONLY IF you want/like the look of sand. BUT DON'T make the switch just because a posting on the internet told you to do so. A thin layer of gravel which is regularly cleaned is fine.


I keep saltwater fish too and know how messy sand is when you add it to the water. Can you tell me how I should go about doing that? Do I need to move my discus temporarily?

When I made my move from gravel to sand, here's what I did:
1. Moved all fish to bucket with water from tank, a heater and an air bubbler.
2. Washed the gravel in the remaining water, and siphoned the dirty water out. (Why waste more tap water to wash the dirty gravel?).
3. Scoop out gravel and let it air dry somewhere. (You don't want the moist gravel to develop nasty bacteria and mold).
4. Clean the sand. Rinse in water until most of the fine dust is gone.
5. Put sand into what is now a bare tank (no water or gravel left).
6. Refill with aged water.
7. If you have one, run a DE filter to remove most of the cloudiness from the remaining dust. Otherwise run your normal filter, but with polyester fibre to trap most of the dust particles. This could take up to 1/2 day, so make sure your fish are comfortable in the temp holding bucket (watch the temperature etc.).
8. When the tank is mostly clear, you can re-introduce the fish.

NOTE, if you use marine sand, make sure you test the sand for calcium. Just to be sure, test the water before re-introducing the fish. You do not want sand that contains more than just silica. The shells and other stuff will really muck up your water chemistry.


Oh, and how do you "gravel vac" sand? Doesn't it get sucked out?

During WC, you stir up the sand. Normally, the sand will fall to the bottom first and the detritus will be layered on top of the sand or suspended in the water column. Your siphon hose will be ABOVE the sand. At the right height, you should see the gunk being lifted off, but the sand will generally stay at the bottom. Vary the height to get the effect you need because the suction pressure will vary. An inch or so off the bottom would be a good place to start.

Hope this helps.

Tim

[tcyiu]

Does marine sand have marine salt in it?

Marine salt is not an issue at all. The main issue are shells and other sources of calcium/magnesium etc. These will harden the water, raise the pH and make the water unfit for discus.

Tim

[ILuvTropicalFish]

Thank-you everyone. I have a large trash can that is dedicated to water changes that I can use to hold the fish while I make the switch, and clear the water. If I can find the Estes sand, I will try that.

One more question, how much sand do you have? ie how thick?

[zamboniMan]

I use play sand and black flourite sand (expensive so I'm getting away from it).

I use it as the top layer of my layered substrate (no i can't spell).

Maybe I'll have to get some nice white marine sand and give it a go.

[tcyiu]

Thank-you everyone. I have a large trash can that is dedicated to water changes that I can use to hold the fish while I make the switch, and clear the water. If I can find the Estes sand, I will try that.

One more question, how much sand do you have? ie how thick?

I had not heard of Estes sand before you mentioned it. I googled it. Looks really interesting. I wonder if they sell it on the West Coast.

As for thickness, I try to aim for the absolute minimum depth upfront, sloping up to about an inch in the back. Because of how tightly the sand compacts, I would worry about anaerobic pockets if it were much thicker.


Maybe I'll have to get some nice white marine sand and give it a go.

Ummm. I hope you saw my post above. Most marine sand contains stuff that do not belong in a discus tank. And it's not the salt. Test the sand with acid before you put it into your discus tank.

Tim

[DiscusFreakaZoid]

Does marine sand have marine salt in it?

no doesnt change water chemistry at all. its synthetic. it also says that on the bag. thats if you get Estes marine sand. other marine sand brands however may.

[Tito]

Marine Sand - aka Aragonite.

Most marine sand come from the coral reefs.

It will buffer the water up a bit. Example.

My community tank has Pink Samoa sand in it.
My pH out of the tap 7.2 with the sand in the tank 7.6.

Also - Manzanita wood - when I had it in my tank pH was 6.6.

These are text book expectations.

[DiscusFreakaZoid]

Marine Sand - aka Aragonite.

Most marine sand come from the coral reefs.

It will buffer the water up a bit. Example.

My community tank has Pink Samoa sand in it.
My pH out of the tap 7.2 with the sand in the tank 7.6.

Also - Manzanita wood - when I had it in my tank pH was 6.6.

These are text book expectations.

true that but Estes white marine sand is just imitation synthetic sand safe for FW

[zamboniMan]

Ummm. I hope you saw my post above. Most marine sand contains stuff that do not belong in a discus tank. And it's not the salt. Test the sand with acid before you put it into your discus tank.

Tim

I did my lfs sells Estes so I'll probably look into that.

[tcyiu]

Marine Sand - aka Aragonite.

I don't think marine sand has a standard definition so I was confused. My apologies.

Pure silica sand is inert and will not react with anything. This can come from ocean beaches, from quarries and are chemically the same. The only difference is the shape. Quarried sand (blasting, play sand etc.) have sharp edges. Next would beach or river sand which is smoother. The smoothest would be silica sand harvested from sand dunes (wind action is the best for smooth edges).

Artificial sand like Estes, or 3M ColorQuartz (which I have) have a ceramic colour coat. These were designed to be inert, but one never knows (because the formula is a trade secret). So best rely on other people's experience.

White coral sand is what I would associate with "marine" sand. These are intended for reef tanks (and can be used with African cichlids). But bad for fish that need soft water.

Tim

[gators111]

I've used, on the recommendation of someone on here, pool filter sand that they sell at Home Depot. It's cheap and looks good. I have used it for several years without any problems. Plus it is course enough not to get sucked out of the tank during WC's.

[Tito]

I would not use pool filter sand - it contains a lot of silica and it is rough on catfish (cory's) plus it looks cheap! Does not belong in a show tank.

There's plenty of inert sand out there from local fish stores to online departments.

I have Pink Samoa in my African Cichlid setup which is a Reef Sand from the... drumroll please - the Samoa's LOL It has pink grains in it and the rest of the grains are whitetish. Very attractive. I also have White Aqua Terra Sand in my Discus setup which is a very fine inert sand. Beautiful sand for rays and catfish. Since most Discus tanks do not have strong currents this is a perfect sand to have.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/4352/product.web

[cfi on the fly]

Pool filter sand that is white in color is not cheap looking at all. Now they do have some off white, brown pool filter sand that is not attractive in my opinion. My planted tank looks awesome with white pool filter sand, but make sure you get a grade that is heavy enough that it sinks with tank cleanings

[tcyiu]

I would not use pool filter sand - it contains a lot of silica and it is rough on catfish (cory's) plus it looks cheap! Does not belong in a show tank.

There's plenty of inert sand out there from local fish stores to online departments.

I have Pink Samoa in my African Cichlid setup which is a Reef Sand from the... drumroll please - the Samoa's LOL It has pink grains in it and the rest of the grains are whitetish. Very attractive. I also have White Aqua Terra Sand in my Discus setup which is a very fine inert sand. Beautiful sand for rays and catfish. Since most Discus tanks do not have strong currents this is a perfect sand to have.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/4352/product.web

Silica is inert sand. On the other hand reef sand or coral sand has lots of carbonates and are NOT inert. The point is that NOT all sand in a fish store are suitable for discus.

As for pool filter sand, most are quarried and have sharp edges by design. Therefore Tito is right in that cories and other fish with barbels may not be real comfortable with that type of sand.

But cheapness is in the eye of the beholder. Some may want the natural "buff" colour of play sand.

Tim

[Tito]

Silica is inert sand. On the other hand reef sand or coral sand has lots of carbonates and are NOT inert. The point is that NOT all sand in a fish store are suitable for discus.

As for pool filter sand, most are quarried and have sharp edges by design. Therefore Tito is right in that cories and other fish with barbels may not be real comfortable with that type of sand.

But cheapness is in the eye of the beholder. Some may want the natural "buff" colour of play sand.

Tim
Um Tim,

In a previous post in this thread I made it clear that Reef Sand is basically aragonite and that it raises pH plus hardens water. But no worries - I don't read every thread from the beginning either.

My point in that post was to focus on the quality of the sands. For a show tank no one should go cheap on sand - I mean ...it's a show tank! LOL

[ILuvTropicalFish]

I appreciate all the input from everyone. I would think that a quality sand in a discus tank would be a high priority. Discus feed off the bottom, as well as my catfish. I don't think sharp edges would be good for either. I have had the cory cat since the beginning of my fish keeping days in 2003. Thanks again, all the information provided is important in determining what sand to get.

[Nismo]

I wish I would have found this forum a lot sooner. I've had my discus for about 9 months now. Jumped right in without knowing what or what not to buy.

I've been wanting to change over to sand for the past month or so. This thread helped with a lot of information. I looked at Estes sand and Super Naturals that Carib Sea provides. I ended up going with the super naturals. I think I'm going to start the process tomorrow. Really bright and early.

[csarkar001]

i got a pH swing that was fairly large when i put my sand in. i'd go slow.

[Nismo]

i got a pH swing that was fairly large when i put my sand in. i'd go slow.

You're scaring me. I don't want to kill my discus.

[fishorama]

I use pool sand in several tanks with loaches, corys & plecs. It comes in several grades & color varies by local source, mostly whitish or light tan. I can surface vac or use a gravel vac if it's not too deep ~2 inches.

My favorite is 0 grade. Some is larger & sharp looking. I rub a bit between my fingers to get a feel for sharpness, the pool store people think I'm odd.

I have some Estes marine sand in my shrimp tank, cleaning it takes a light hand. I lose a bit each time. Shrimp waste is tiny, I imangine I'd lose more with discus size poo.

Play sand is often mixed grain sizes, more apt to compact & change pH. Mine was very dirty too.

[zamboniMan]

As long as you're careful (which will become habit after a time) play sand is just fine and will stay clean. I haven't noticed it altering my pH

[fishorama]

It all depends on local sources, it's too expensive to ship far. I meant my playsand was muddy before washing it for quite a while. Pool sand IME takes very little inital washing just to get rid of dust.

[sbanks78]

As long as you're careful (which will become habit after a time) play sand is just fine and will stay clean. I haven't noticed it altering my pH

did you get your play sand at home depot? how deep is your sb?

[zamboniMan]

yes i got it at home depot. I use it to layer my substrate. I do play sand around the edges first, add miracle grow (organic), sphagnum moss, diatomacios earth, mix it up (without disturbing the play sand around the edges), and cover it with like 3 inches of play sand. Comes out to about 4 inches total. Only problem with doing this is that everything needs to be wet when you add it. Or else as it soaks up water it'll cause air bubbles to bubble up through the sand (trust me it gets messy). Though if you only want to use the sand it won't matter.
The other thing is if your careful when you add water (use a piece of slate to run water off) the sand will get all mixed up in the water and take a while to settle.

After about 24 hours I use a Magnum 350 with a micron filter cartridge to get the water nice and clear. After that it's never a problem.

[csarkar001]

You're scaring me. I don't want to kill my discus.


just do a small experiment in another tank or bowl to see if you sand changes the pH before you put it in the discus tank.