what causes this? [Archive]

tcmemphisbbq

12-17-2009, 04:54 PM

its one of my white diamonds, the other is pure white but this one started having this inside his nose... she is in qt right now for long white slimy poop, but is doing better, 2 90%wc daily - did a 3 day metro, day off, then did another today and yesterday.... she just ate some bw's so hoping to see some better lookn poop tonight.

hehehe - nothing like waiting around to see a fish poop lol

Chad Hughes

12-17-2009, 05:01 PM

Red in the nostril, face or pectoral fin could be related to bacterial infection. If the fish go off food and exhibit the feces that you mentioned, I'd lean more towards bacterial than anything else. Kanaymycin would be my drug of choice. I'm no disease "expert" so this is just an opinion.

Hopefully you'll hear from some others that have a bunch more experience in this arena than I do. "Eddie" has come to be quite the Pharmacist here on SD. He may be able to guide you better.

Best wishes!

tcmemphisbbq

12-17-2009, 05:20 PM

well thats the thing, she never went off food, and has been laying eggs at a regular rate for some time now, they lay them on the glass on the thermo strip lol - but she never has clinched fins, never went off food always one of my best eaters... only recently did I see her entire body getting a bit darker and her poop long and white..... the nostrils have been like this for much longer though....

her mate came from same lfs, same tank, same size, and is pure white with slight baby blue fin tips - but his poop is perfect lol -

tcmemphisbbq

12-17-2009, 05:22 PM

i guess my thing was is I have another one that looks like the same thing, im wondering if they just ran into something or if its from agression, from her keeping fish from her eggs and the other one because it DOES get picked on alot but lately has been more acertive in its place in the tank lol -

is there a product that contains that medication or is that the actual medication?

Right now I dont wanna give her anything else because shes in qt for another week at least before I put her back into general population lol

David Rose

12-17-2009, 06:25 PM

Tony,

Do they look something like this? Maybe you could post a picture or two?

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/20091217073.jpg
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/20091217072.jpg
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/20091217071.jpg

tcmemphisbbq

12-17-2009, 09:15 PM

thats EXACTLY what it looks like - got three of 8 that look like this now... I know there is alot of agression still in the tank but the one had it almost right after he was in the tank 2 months ago the other two just saw today - they are the newest and get picked on and chased around the most.

I just figured the first one ran into something...

tcmemphisbbq

12-17-2009, 09:16 PM

BTW thats a nice lookin fish -

Double Up

12-17-2009, 09:54 PM

Check your water temp!!! I had a heater take a **** on me and that is what happened to my bolivian rams!!! temp dropped to like 60 something

ShinShin

12-17-2009, 10:19 PM

tcmemphisbbq

12-17-2009, 11:02 PM

David Rose

12-17-2009, 11:57 PM

Hmmm come to think about it my green snakeskin and the whites eyes do seem a little bulgy -

Where can I buy this at? Would there be another antibiotic that might take care of this that would be more readily available? I have limited availability to meds... Kanamyacin Normal for a good lfs? since I have multiple fish am I better to treat the whole tank - It's a 125 planted - my only qt is a 10gal designed for one fish....

I purchased Kanamyacin Sulfate powder from Jehmco.com and also have kanamyacin flakes form AngelsPlus.com. You could also call your local fish stores to see if they carry it. Both Jehmco and AngelsPlus will ship same day. In the mean time bring your temp down to 80-82.

Jhhnn

12-18-2009, 12:25 AM

Just a word of caution wrt Kanamycin- it's really rough on biofilters.

One of the commonly available forms is Seachem Kanaplex.

David Rose

12-18-2009, 09:52 AM

It has always been my understanding if the fish is still eating, it's best to use medicated food. Would that be the recommendation in my situation given my CBP is still eating and appears very healthy? Or should I QT and treat only the one with either medicated flake or use the powder?

Secondly, Tony has several showing signs of this bacterial infection, so in his case would it be best to treat the entire tank with the powder form (predissolved of course in non-chlorinated water)?

David Rose

12-18-2009, 09:56 AM

It very well could be a bacterial infection. Kanamyacin will usually take care of this situation. Watch carefully, because such an infection can be followed by fluid build-up in tha cranial area, causing a popeye condition.

Mat

Thanks so much Mat for jumping in here! I do have one question though...if our fish do start to show signs of fluid build-up, what is the best way to handle this so we know in advance?

Take care,

Eddie

12-18-2009, 10:04 AM

Thanks so much Mat for jumping in here! I do have one question though...if our fish do start to show signs of fluid build-up, what is the best way to handle this so we know in advance?

Take care,

Good internal bacteria antibiotic David, something such as Kanamycin. ;)

Eddie

David Rose

12-18-2009, 11:53 AM

I sent an email with the above pictures off to Kenny a few posts ago and I hope he doens't mind, but here's response:

"The Red Markings you mentioned (I assumed you meant the red nose) on the ACP, is quite commonly seen on gold/white base color strains such as Albinos, Red Whites, Yellow Whites, Red Melons, Snow Whites, Pigeons, etc...some think it has to do with the blood vessels in that area and usually it looks more pronounced after they have their meals but the red color does not show as much beforehand. Some also think it has to do with infection but only if your fish are showing symptoms that they are sick."

In my situation, my ACP isn't showing any signs of illness, eats well, very active and so on. I may hold off on treatment ATM, but this isn't to mean that your discus Tony may need to be treated. You'll need to make the best decision for you based on your observations.

I hope this helps and take care and keep us posted.

David

tcmemphisbbq

12-18-2009, 04:39 PM

Same here in that they seem fine in how active they are and such, I will keep a close eye on them in the next few days. Its wierd that one of my whites isnt showing it but the other is... very strange... Will be diligent about keeping a close eye....

On a good note, the one that has this is now pooping nice firm brown poop and is chomping blackworms before they hit the bottom of the qt :-) I stopped meds and am just gonna do clean water for a few days before introducing him back into the main display. :-)

Thanks all... thanks David for jumping in also on this...

ShinShin

12-19-2009, 12:09 AM

My experience with this situation is that I had 5 solid yellow discus in a tank. One developed red nostrils and a few days later, it's eyes were about to pop out of their sockets. Since I was doing 50-90% wtaer changes daily, water conditions was not the problem.

I treated with kanamyacin, and in days it was well. None of the other discus developed any red in the nostril area, then or at anytime during their stay with me.

Fluid buildup is a common symptom with bacterial infections, and one reason epson salts do not always work in an apparent bloat condition. It is not bloat, but an infecttion in such an instance.

Mat

David Rose

12-19-2009, 11:29 AM

Thanks Mat, it does make me wonder after losing my other ACP from bloat a few weeks ago that it may have been an infection and not a blockage. It didn't have the red nostrils, but this one does. It appeared very healthy, eating and active, but that all changed quickly and from the time it showed signs of bloat and I started with epsom salts and after 24 hours started Kanamycin, it was too late. Within 36 hours it died.

It's always a risk isn't it, but it's probably better to treat them rather than lose them.

tcmemphisbbq

12-19-2009, 12:35 PM

Im gonna head up to indy to the lfs, about an hour drive.... IF they do not have Kanamycin is there an alternative anti I can use? I know they carry stuff like furan 2, and stuff like that - am hoping they carry kanamycin also...

After pretty much watching them nonstop for the past 24 hours Im convinced something bacterial... I do not suspect water as the issue as I do 2 50% to 80% wc weekly without fail, The tank is planted with plenty of good bacteria in the filters and overkill on filtration.

Still cant figure out HOW they got it but suspect theyve had it for a long time with the runt/stunted discus being ill on and off for past 9 months.

Unfortunately I think I have to treat the whole tank... I can drain it down to about 80 gallons and still use both canisters so that will save some med cost.
When theyve been ill in the past always used metro and prazi which always seemed to fix the issue but it seems I may have an underlying bacteria going on that may be just keeps getting passed around... I really dont know and hope someone can shed some light on it for me.......

The reason I suspect bacterial is the following:
*Green Snakeskin started darkening up, eyes seem a little bigger then
normal, but not popping out of head...
*White diamond showing some fin notches on back fin,
*Red Turq that had "fin rot" is not getting better with more frequent water
changes
*my two yellows now have red nostrils and one is darkening up black in the
face

ALL of the fish are eating well and active though even with the above symptoms....

Its so confusing and frustrating when they get ill...i lost three a few months back over treating and knee jerk reactions :( learned alot since then... the more I think about it though I think ive had whatever it is they got for a long time and perhaps just kept it at bay with wc's and non anti meds - I dont know....

help? Beuller.... anyone? lol
Tom

David Rose

12-19-2009, 02:46 PM

Hi Tom,

For what it's worth, I've used Furan-2 for other issues in my tank that my ACP is in, but it didn't do anything for this.

That said, Seachem makes Kanaplex, which you might find more easily in stores or online. I usually buy meds from:

I didn't see Kanaplex or Kanamycin on Ken's website who is a Sponsor here, but would be good for other meds:
http://www.kensfish.com/medicationlinks.html

Jehmco and they ship quickly, but depending on how far away you're located will factor in a bit: http://www.jehmco.com/html/medications.html

That Pet Place:
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/198732/product.web

AngelsPlus
www.AngelsPlus.comhttp://www.angelsplus.com/MedsParasite.htm with Kanamycin as its active ingrediant :(

4FishStuff doesn't have it, but would be good for other meds:
I didnt' see Kanamycin or Kanaplex on http://www.4fishstuff.com/index.php?cPath=61&sort=3a&page=2 , which I know Eddie recommends them to buy from. If they show out-of-stock, best to call them to check according to Ryan (Dkarc).

joanr

12-19-2009, 04:52 PM

Angels still has the Kanamycin flake, it's here:
http://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeMedicated.htm

David Rose

12-19-2009, 05:00 PM

Angels still has the Kanamycin flake, it's here:
http://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeMedicated.htm

LOL...thanks Joan...I must be going totally blind!:confused: I revised my earlier post.

joanr

12-19-2009, 05:47 PM

No, not blind, that flake was not on that page that you posted, just the other two medicated flakes. I had to go there to see for myself why they discontinued the anti-biotic flake and found the original page where it's still listed. IMHO if the fish is still eating, getting the meds straight into the body by food is a better method, and these flakes have the kanamycin in them. If the fish is not eating then a bath is necessary. Furan-2 usually works for septic conditions if you can't get the kanamycin.

David Rose

12-19-2009, 05:54 PM

joanr

12-19-2009, 06:19 PM

Agreed...when they're still eating, medicated flake is the way to go. If it's within your budget, stock up on flake and powder forms, so you're ready to go. At least those meds that your LFS doesn't carry!

Of course I don't follow the instructions on the bags of Angel Flake, I don't think those folks keep Discus. But in your case David I tend to agree with Kenny, lots of pics of PB show these red areas around the nostrils, look like broken tiny blood vessels, they also tend to get a shaded area right around the cheek, especially the light faced strains.

tcmemphisbbq

12-19-2009, 06:25 PM

I ordered some kanaplex - hopefully it will get here mid week, lfs an hour away only had merycin products for anti's -

Thanks for everyone's input

Eddie

12-19-2009, 07:37 PM

I ordered some kanaplex - hopefully it will get here mid week, lfs an hour away only had merycin products for anti's -

Thanks for everyone's input

Jehmco is the best source of Kanamycin for price and amount. Kanaplex can get expensive and there is not enough for proper dosing.

Eddie

tcmemphisbbq

12-20-2009, 01:14 PM

It said each one does 150gal, so I bought like 5 tubes of it to make sure I had enough to properly give them a thorough dose.... wish I woulda read this before I ordered hehe but already did...

Sure hoping this works and gets my fish on the right track.... Even this morning they are eating good....

Put the white diamond that had stringy poo back in main display and her mate and her are already cleaning the glass to lay and been doing the shimmy shake love dance since I put her back in....

joanr

01-23-2010, 05:40 PM

So guys, what ever happened with the Red Nostril Syndrome? Was it what Kenny said or did you both treat with Kana? My little RGD has the red nostrils, they come and go. She also gets pecked in the face all the time by the monster Piggie who is a little terror on wheels. I added some salt today and ordered the Kana flake just in case but wanted to hear your results and what you decided it was.

David Rose

01-23-2010, 05:54 PM

I tried Kana flake and it didn't change a thing. Kenny was right. I guess I never noticed it before, but my RGDs have them as well which is a little harder to notice given their coloring.

joanr

01-23-2010, 06:20 PM

Good to hear, thanks! I was going to put them in with the others next weekend and then noticed the nostrils looked a little redder than two weeks ago. Probably the pigeon pecking her face too much and what Kenny said. I can't wait for my big CT to straighten out this little piggie. The RGD is soo sweet tempered, she won't defend herself.

tcmemphisbbq

01-23-2010, 10:37 PM

Mine still same also... only thing I DO notice about THAT fish vs others in the tank is he is a bit jumpier than the others, they all beg and he runs - but did kana and saw no change on him. He eats well, active, good poop.

joanr

01-24-2010, 12:42 AM

I guess all is well as long as the redness stays put and the eyes remain normal. I never had white/yellow faced fish before so this is something new for me. My Flamingo also had the redness which changed in intensity at certain times throughout the day. Well if the Kana did nothing then most likely not bacterial in these cases.

tcmemphisbbq

02-26-2010, 08:49 PM

I know this is older but wanted to update, The darkening has over time gotten worse, very slowly - Its the male of the pair, has never stopped eating fine, very active, never clinched fins, always settles in and greats me, the pair has been a little skiddish last couple weeks because I moved them out of the display into the 75 gal dual breeder i setup, over the course of the past couple months I have tried a couple things to no avail -

Did the kana treatment - No change
Tried Clout - No change (I know its mainly for external)
Did a FULL 10day regimine of triple sulfa to no avail -

Here are some pics - when I first got the fish it was pure white like the female, over time this has happened. You can barely see small blood streaks in the finnage -

http://tcmemphisbbq.com/tank/2-26/2.jpg

http://tcmemphisbbq.com/tank/2-26/3.jpg

This is the female, her coloring is fine -
http://tcmemphisbbq.com/tank/2-26/4.jpg

http://tcmemphisbbq.com/tank/2-26/5.jpg

http://tcmemphisbbq.com/tank/2-26/6.jpg

http://tcmemphisbbq.com/tank/2-26/7.jpg

What am I missing - any suggestions to what to try next?

Thanks in advance -
Tom

tcmemphisbbq

02-26-2010, 08:52 PM

Also is it just me or do the eyes seem a bit bulgy? - I know above someone stated cranial buildup with bacterial - so now I am wondering what to do next if this is the case. -

tom

Eddie

02-26-2010, 08:53 PM

Tom, you may be treating something for no reason. I would never apply antibiotics for red or blood nostrils. It is more than likely the water. Only use antibiotics if there are other symptoms to follow, such as swollen abdomen or popeye. Now I am not saying that something is wrong with the water but it may be the composition of your water or excess gas in your water. If the fish is healthy and doing fine, dont fret the red nostrils.

Eddie

tcmemphisbbq

02-26-2010, 08:59 PM

Its the other discoloration - I mean yeah the nostrils have gotten worse but when it started his finnage and such were pure white like the female. I thought it was thier food but they do not eat anything with color enhancers and havent for about 4 or 5 months - The yellowing/orangish/veiny looking finnage looks wierd in person -

On another note, they used to lay eggs twice a week sometimes in the community tank but haven't touched the cone since I moved them a few weeks ago hehe, I know they are still settling in.

Just hoping its not gonna keep getting worse...

Eddie

02-26-2010, 09:06 PM

No worries. The pair may just need to get comfortable in the new tank and then all the chemicals you subjected them to, they may be off spawning for a while. Clout has metro in it and metro can cause issues in spawning IME.

Eddie

tcmemphisbbq

02-26-2010, 09:21 PM

I guess with both ab, prob safe to say they dont have anything bacterial at this point -

They haven't had any meds in about 10days or so - just lots of clean water and lots of mal bw -
The spawning I am sure was just the new home also....they have been growing great also in the new tank, they eat like crazy and poop like it also, been having to vac twice a day hehe

Eddie

02-26-2010, 09:32 PM

When you do water changes, do you use Prime or SAFE? Do you age your water?

Eddie

tcmemphisbbq

02-26-2010, 10:05 PM

No I don't age, I do use prime, yes - I generally let it sit for an hour if doing bucket/vac changes - my water is hard, high ph but its crazy stable.....never changes - hour, day or week

I tried to do a test in a bucket with some ph down and WOW, then it crashed, so as they say - leave well enough alone lol - had wrigglers twice as well.

Speaking of which right before I did a nightly vac on the 75 bare bottom, I caught the female cleaning the cone ;-)