Please Help. Discus have inflamed Gills. Parasites?

[marcus319]

All,

I've had these Discus for over 5 years. It's only a 30 gal. tank with water changes of 30% every 3 days, but I've done my best to keep them healthy. Now I fear that I simply don't have the skills to keep them healthy.

Water Quality....PH - 6.5, Water Hardness 109, Water Temp 86. Ammonia 0, Nitrates ). Yet, my Discus have really inflamed gills and white stuff but it doesn't look like flukes or a parasite to me.

I've attached pictures, please help. The medications I've tried exactly as prescribed on the packages are....Melafix (Active Ingredient Melaleuca), Pimaflex (Active Ingrediant Pimenta racemosa), Metronidazole. I tried a salt bath on one fish as I saw recommended on this website at 2 tbs per gallon but it simply killed on of my Discus.

I'm sorry if I sound like someone who doesn't know how to take care of these beautiful fish but I'm really trying. It's a specialty tank with on Discus and a small school of Neon Tetra's.

Regards,
Mark

[marcus319]

My camara wont take a picture with such low res. I will send to anyone who wants to see. Thanks again.

[Moon]

Mark
Give us some information about your set up. How many fish, size, BB or gravel etc.
I would not use melafix and primafix. They don't work. You really need to identify what is wrong with your fish. Give us some of the symptoms. If it's gill flukes their gills will be extended or only one gill will be working. The fish will be flashing or rubbibg against objects in the tank.
I might also add that your tank is too small and WC every third day may not be adequate.

[pcsb23]

Hello Mark,

From what you describe it sounds as though they may have either a bacterial or parasitic infection (even both).

Before we diagnose or suggest treatment send me the pics and I'll re-size them and post them up. I've pm'd you my email addy.

[marcus319]

I'm sorry for not enough detail. Not sure what give us your "BB" means but I have 3 Discus in a 30 Gal. tank. Gave the rest of the specs, pls let me know if you need more info

[pcsb23]

BB means bare bottom, and we're talking about the tank :o as in no substrate ;)

[marcus319]

Both gills are working, though inflamed, but sometimes they clamp their fins. It also appears a secondary infection is occurring as I see some fin rot and some white fuzz on them.

My 1st thought is water quality so a couple days ago I moved them to a 10 gallon tank and completely cleaned the 30 gallon before transferring them back. I use reverse osmosis water (ends up 30 on my TDS meter) for all the changes and then put Kents's Discus Essentials and Kent Liquid R/O right at the prescribed amount for Discus leaving the tank at about 150 TDS and 6.5 PH at a water temp of 86.

Thanks again. I'm embarrassed that I dont know how to keep these beautiful fish alive. I thought about giving this up but there's no fish stores suited to take care of them properly around where I live so its up to me to be a good parent.

[marcus319]

Not BB but a very thin layer of gravel for aesthetic reasons. I thought you'd want some gravel to develop a bacteria colony as these fish seem to be very messy. BTW, I use a Marineland Penguin 150 with the bio wheel and also use no carbon. Remove the carbon given the info I heard about HTH disease.

[marcus319]

Also use a U/V light for the tank though its been off while I've tried to medicate

[marcus319]

Is there something else I need to provide to get some feedback? It seems like every hour counts and the sooner I have this diagnosed, the better for the Discus.

[David Rose]

I'm no expert, but I would bring the temperature down to 82F slowly in order to use F&MG (QuickCure or Rid-Ich) to treat for parasites. Lights off and add extra aeration because the medication will deplete oxygen levels.
Follow med instructions before second dose and perform a 25% water change after 24hrs before a second dose.

I would pick up some Furan-2 to use later in a day or two after F&MG treatment. This will help with bacterial such as fin rot.

Eddie or Paul will probably jump in to assist or advise better, but this would be my approach.

Can you post pictures or send them to Paul or myself and one of us will post them to this thread.

[marcus319]

Thanks David, I really appreciate you offer to help, Pictures sent as requested! Merry Christmas

[David Rose]

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http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/P5050084.jpg
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[David Rose]

Hi Mark,

There is a questionnaire that we often use on Simply Discus that will help us understand your situation such as Moon suggested above. Here is the link to it: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=38545 .

Often times there can be numerous issues causing illness and completing this questionnaire provides much of the detail needed to help. Please complete and copy/paste it into this thread when you have a chance.

Best of luck... if you need me to post any more pictures, feel free to email me and I'll post them right away.

Regards,
David

[marcus319]

Thanks David,

F&MG (QuickCure or Rid-Ich)...where can I get that? I've noticed now some stinging white stuff hanging off the Discus.

Here's what I have in my medical inventory.....

1. Metronidazole
2. Dewormer (Piperazine)
3. Pimafix (Active Ingredient Pimenta racemosa) Fungus
4. Melafix (Active Ingredient Melaleuca) Bacteria

See previous for water PH, hardness, etc...

Best regards,
Mark

[David Rose]

Most local pet stores will carry Quick Cure in smaller bottles. You could call in advance to be safe.

Is the stringly white stuff hanging from the anal area? Is it transparent/clear or opaque/solid?

[David Rose]

Online:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4734

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4827

[marcus319]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

The Discus have inflamed gills and whites "stuff" though I'm not an expert and would welcome anyone's expertise.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Clamped Fins, Starting to secrete excess slime and most importantly, their gills look inflamed and have white stuff on them(see pictures in earlier posts)


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

1. Metronidazole
2. Pimafix (Active Ingredient Pimenta racemosa) Fungus
3. PraziPro
4. Melafix (Active Ingredient Melaleuca) Bacteria

All as prescribed






Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
30 Gallon Tank. 3 Discuss & 7 Neon Tetra's. Discus 4-5 Inches.


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Have light gravel. Change 25-30% every 3-4 days. Don't age water but all water is processed through Reverse Osmosis and then treated with Kents R/O Liquid Right and Kents Discus Essentials as prescribed.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 86

- ph 6.5 / TDS Reading of 109

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading unknown

- nitrate reading unkown

- well water use R/O Water

- municipal water use R/O Water

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
One Discus from store,

[David Rose]

Hi Mark,

Do you have a complete test kit such as API (Aquarium Pharamceuticals, Inc) or Tetra kit?

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3635399

If not, I would definitely recommend getting one.


Until you can get the Quick Cure or Rid-Ich, you should start to lower your temperature to 82F gradually and add Aquarium Salt or Kosher or Table Salt at 1 tablespoon/10G.

Take care,
David

[David Rose]

Have you observed your discus rubbing up against objects or darting about in the tank?

Have you noticed a change in breathing, rapid or as if they are gasping for air?

Do they point toward the back of the tank and isolate themselves?

Has there been a change in their eating habits?

[marcus319]

Thanks David,

Ordered express the Ich treatment and the test kit.

No, they don't rub themselves nor indicate that their gills are itches or bothering themselves. Though the gills are inflamed and they seem 50 % red and 50% white. I dont see worm like things on them so perplexed.

[marcus319]

If I add the salt at 1Tsp per gallon and my TDS is 190 should I be concerned about the water getting to hard or an adverse effect on the PH (6.5)?

[Eddie]

Do you have a hospital tank? I'd salt dip each fish and return them to the hospital tank. From the looks of it, you may actually be better off going with a 4 hour PP treatment but this will need to be done in a BareBottom hospital tank.

Eddie

[marcus319]

By salt dip you mean 2 tbs per gallon until they start to loose their equilibrium. I did that once and it killed my Discus so I'm not sure I'll ever do a salt dip again. Let me know what I'm missing...thx

[Eddie]

By salt dip you mean 2 tbs per gallon until they start to loose their equilibrium. I did that once and it killed my Discus so I'm not sure I'll ever do a salt dip again. Let me know what I'm missing...thx

Yup, thats what I mean. Basically, you have to return the fish to a hospital tank as they are very vulnerable to any and all issues in the main tank.

Eddie

[marcus319]

BTW, What does a 4 hour PP treatment mean? Not sure of the acronym. Thanks!

[Eddie]

BTW, What does a 4 hour PP treatment mean? Not sure of the acronym. Thanks!

Potassium Permanganate, very strong oxidizer and should only be used under strict instructions. It is however, extremely useful in treating gill issues as well as other external problems.

Eddie

[pcsb23]

Here are marcus's pictures ....

[pcsb23]

Having looked at the photos, this is what I would do.

Get a very clean container and with clean dechlorinated water in at the right temp. Temporarily put the fish in this container. Remove all decoration from the 30 gal and give it a good wipe down, rinse the filter media in clean dechlorinated water.

Refill the tank with heated dechlorinated water, the heater and an airstone. Wrap some floss around the airstone to catch crud.

If you have access to PP then do a PP treatment at 2ppm for a minimum of 4 hours, longer is better if not then do a salt dip on the discus as per http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=70580 and place them back in the 30 gal.

Use a broad spectrum antibiotic, furan 2 may be a good bet here, but maracyn 1&2 combined will also work well. Keep temps at 82f (28c). Daily water changes and redose. Feed lightly or preferably not at all.

As far as the bio filter goes, if you keep it damp but not submerged it will remain active enough to pick up once treatment is over. As your ph is 6.5 any ammonia will be ammonium (very low toxicity) and with F2 or M1&2 you will be doing daily w/c's.

Salt (NaCl) will not affect ph will affect tds, don't worry over tds.

Longer term a 30 gal is a tad cosy for adult discus but is still a useful tank (qt/hospital/fry etc). 55 or bigger is better :)

hth and good luck.

[marcus319]

Thanks for the advise. Do I do the PP treatment first and then Maracyn 1%2 or do I combine?

Also, during these treatments, I should do a daily water change?

Thank you

[pcsb23]

Do the PP first and once only, then a big w/c, then dose with the maracyn 1&2. Daily w/c's and re-dose :) Good luck.

[David Rose]

Here's a thread Al accumulated various other info together that will help you prepare for using PP.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=70066

[marcus319]

Thank you both. After treating with the PP and prior to the Maracyn 1&2, do I need to use carbon or anything to pull out the PP or will the large water change suffice?

[pcsb23]

The large w/c should suffice, I usually do a 80%+ w/c then do another straight after :)

[David Rose]

PP is a harsh oxidizing agent and can do harm if not used properly. Are you comfortable from your reading in knowing how to use it? If you have any questions prior to treatment, please be sure to ask.

Are you getting PP crystals or Oxy Clear fizz tabs?

[Moon]

I use Hydrogen peroxide to neutralise PP.

[David Rose]

Good point Moon! You definitely want either Hydrogen Peroxide or Prime on hand to neutralize the PP in case of an overdose (water is purple and not a light shade of pink).

Actually, I use Prime anyway during all my water chagnes, so I add it just before refilling my tank during the water change following treatment for added safety.

[pcsb23]

Just a word about neutralising PP.

Using something like prime will work and is relatively safe, you still need to do a large w/c though, partly to remove the prime/PP concoction and partly to remove the oxidised matter.

Using H2O2 you can easily end up damaging the fish as there is a delayed reaction using it an dmost people keep on adding it. H2O2 is an aggressive oxidser in it's own right (and can be used in place of PP). You still need to do large w/c's for the same reasons as above.

So why not elimiate the risk? Just do 2 large w/c's, (or one @110%) no more PP, oxidised matter, and no risk. I never neutralise PP now.

[vss]

We can also use vitamin C tablet to neutralize PP after the treatment, which I think might be an easier way. Every time I grinded 4-5 tablets and desolve them in a little ammount of water in a cup bedore I dose the PP, and after the treatment I pour the vitamin solution in. The tank water changes back to transparent in a few seconds. Still, a large W/C is required no matter what.

-Xiaofei:)

[marcus319]

Thanks everyone. I was late in reading the posts and lost one of the Discus who didn't even look sick (isn't that always the way). My tank was purple and not pick (previous mentioned in a post). I did do an immediate water change when I saw the fish stressed.

The PP didn't seem to do much in terms of visual effects. The gills are still inflamed and have white on them. I'm on to another w/c and then Maracyn 1 &2.

As a reference I did move them to a small 10 gallon tank, then completely striped down the main tank and cleaned everything thoroughly.

Also here's the water the specs again:

Water Temp: 82 (was 86 but lowered as per suggested temp for PP treatment)
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
TDS: 109
Total Chlorine: 0
Total Alkalinity :40
PH:6.5

Should I start using aquarium salt?(concerned about water hardness) Should I start using carbon (after treatments).

I love these fish but am simply afraid when I buy them I'm sending them to an early death. Really feel like a bad owner. I have one left that I've had for 6 years, the others are less then 2yrs.

Thanks for everyone's help!
Mark

[David Rose]

Hi Mark,

Sorry to hear of your loss. No carbon until you're finished with the M1 & M2 treatment given it will remove the meds from the water. No worries about adding salt, it will raise TDS, but high TDS isn't bad when it's because you added a therapeutic level of salt.