New to Discus

[scuba guy]

I am new to Discus. I installed a 500g show aquarium with Malaysian tree roots and rocks. The aquarium is 3 months old and is fully cycled. I have two 2260 eheim's and a 50 gallon sump-wet/dry trickle filter. Water is at 84 degrees.

The company that sold me the installation insisted I put a school of discus - and the owner managed to convince me.

I have 6 red mellons and 3 Leopards and 200 cardinals and rummy nose tetra's.
I feed them beef heart (I mix myself), frozen blood worms and tetra bits, two to three times a day.

5 of the red mellons are thriving - eat voraciously and are growing with great color. one of the Red Mellons has not grown much and hides and I have not seen it eat. All three of the Leopards have never eaten and are dying. They all exhibit Hexamita (white fecal strands), dark color, wasting away and hide in corners.

I treated the tank with Metronidazole, to no effect. I learned on this site and others that the fish need to ingest Metro for it to be effective.

I worry that my good Discus will suffer the same fate - although I can probably feed them Metro treated food.

I am curious as to your experiences with healthly and sick fish in the same aquarium? I can't get the sick fish out since the rocks and wood hide them - short of tearing apart the tank and putting all of the fish through stress - I am in a quandary ...

My big mistake was buying the Leopards without first seeing them eat and have a QT set-up. I was told they were healthy and ready to go. I don't think it was intentional since they are more than willing to credit me - but now I have an infected tank. And it is not practical for me to set up a hospital QT system. The show tank is for show.

Will the healthy fish survive?

[hedut]

welcome to SD, You need to remove all your sick discus to hospital tank like 20gln. If fish not need don't bother put metro in food:D:D cause is useless. You need quarantine use metro 500g for each 10 gln, temp at least 90F - 93F even when you change the water manage same temp. WC daily after 5 days you will see the result. That way having discus is better at least at 86F for juv and 83F -86F for adult :D:D:D. Good luck ;);). Merry Christmas and Happy new year

[Tropheus]

Wow, what a tank. I am not sure I would have done discus with their need for water changes and finickiness at first. That is a lot of real estate. I don't know what to tell you because I am not a discus expert, but I feel your pain. I think I would pull the discus, tell the guy to take em back and raise the tank temp above a 100 degree for a week and then perform a massive water change. Let it settle for another week and then I would move in the direction of adding fish that are often considered "Tank Busters" and too large for the mere mortal aquarist. Lots to choose from and it seems the bigger they get the hardier at times.

I am not to big on letting someone steer my wallet in a direction from a fish store or aquaium maintenance business. I would do some reading and walk the asiles of a few LFS, maybe even a local public aquarium before going in a direction.

[Eddie]

welcome to SD, You need to remove all your sick discus to hospital tank like 20gln. If fish not need don't bother put metro in food:D:D cause is useless. You need quarantine use metro 500g for each 10 gln, temp at least 90F - 93F even when you change the water manage same temp. WC daily after 5 days you will see the result. That way having discus is better at least at 86F for juv and 83F -86F for adult :D:D:D. Good luck ;);). Merry Christmas and Happy new year

Ditto. No matter what, you need to remove the sick ones. The others may do fine if they remain healthy and unstressed. Hexamita or Sprinucleus is transferred to other fish via feces of infected fish. Discus and pretty much all fish mouth other fish feces. Taking out the sick fish will eliminate the risk to the others.

Eddie

[William Palumbo]

Iwant to see a pic of that tank...500 gallons!...WOW!...Make a good wild(bio-tope) tank huh Eddie?!...Bill

[Eddie]

Iwant to see a pic of that tank...500 gallons!...WOW!...Make a good wild(bio-tope) tank huh Eddie?!...Bill

HECK YEAH!!!!

[blkrob]

I'd love to see the pic also. I'm gonna have to check this thread often.:D

Robert

[namasgt]

Your water could be polluted from the beef heart feeding that resulted in stress and then the sickness. In my opinion Beef heart feeding should be done before the water change. If you feed beef heart and decide to change the water a few days later you may risk water pollution (I'm just making an example here, I don't know whats your water change routine). Also beef heart can get in to the filtration system and stay there. I used a sponge on water entrance from the tank for my canister filter so that food particles would not get in.
take the sick fish out and siphon any feces from the tank bottom. Then clean your filters out.

every Discus has Hex in their system. when they get stressed out, their immune system comes down and then the hex takes over making the fish sick.

[scuba guy]

Hi All - Thanks for all of the responses.

Here is a pic of a small part of the aquarium:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/mjz_3348/IMG_0868.jpg

It gives an idea of the look I was going for - and to the post earlier, I am creating an Amazon biotope with lots of driftwood and rocks common to the area.

I'll shoot a full aquarium picture when the water clears.

The beef heart I feed doesn't last more than 30 seconds. I use a gelatin matrix which binds it very well as the fish nail it. The 200 cardinals and rummy nose swarm the mouths of the discus as they feed. Not a bit gets to the bottom. It is wonderful to see (I'll try taking video). The cloudiness I have started almost immediately when I first filled the aquarium - it has never gone away except when I use a diatom filter. I suspect what started out as a normal new tank bacterial bloom has been replaced with one celled algae. Over time it should clear up.

[scuba guy]

Here is a picture of the tank:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/mjz_3348/IMG_0868.jpg

The intent of the design is to mimic Amazon backwaters.

[MostlyDiscus]

Would love to see a picture of the tank, pic of the discus would help too.

Ed

[David Rose]

Scuba Guy's tank

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/mjz_3348/IMG_0868.jpg


Sick fish:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/mjz_3348/IMG_0869.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/mjz_3348/IMG_0873.jpg

[mmorris]

I, too, would treat affected fish with metro in the water in a quarantine tank. A hospital quarantine tank is part of the discus package. :)
1. How long have you had them? It sounds like you got them in two lots.
2. Was the one ill melon healthy when you added the leopards?
3. Although the leopards never ate, did they have white feces from the start?
4. What is your wc regime: how much water do you change, how often, and do you match temperature of incoming water with tank water?
If the fish arrived ill, then store credit is, IMO, hardly adequate compensation for the delivery of sick fish because I would not buy fish from them again.

[Tropheus]

Awsome tank my friend.

[scuba guy]

I bought the Discus in two lots. At first I did not want to buy any Discus because of my reading on the care and the knowledge that unless I was committed it would not be fair to the fish. But the owner of an Aquarium design company "lobbied" me hard that my set up MUST be a Discus tank. We chatted over lots of wine and Scotch on the merits and he convinced me that Discus today are much more resistant to disease than years ago and that with such a large water volume (500g) I can hold a fair number of Discus in a happy state - and one big factor was that the supplier he uses had a stellar reputation for selling disease free fish (because they pre-treated).

The decision was mine to take the chance - and sure enough all my worst fears happened - including a cloudy tank (milky color which I believe is one celled algae - don't know why it's not green).

The first lot of six red mellons did well except for one. After a couple of days they started to eat and then started to really eat. They love the beef heart - and have since doubled in size with awesome color and personalities to boot - I understand now why you guys love Discus so much. These 5 red mellons are family now. I can almost pet them in the water if I wanted to. The Red Mellons came from an overseas supplier that the store (and several owners) have been using for a long time.

About three weeks later I added 4 juvenile Leopards and this is where my problems began. The Leopards were sourced from a local breeder. Everyone (shop owner, me) thought that the fish would be in even better shape because they were bred in local conditions with zero transit problems (no bagging, shipping for several days, etc.). I thought I would have strong fish. But the opposite was true. The shop owner did not pre-treat the fish either - so they came in with parasites. and when they were added to my tank - within a day I saw the dreaded white feces.

I am so angry at myself for not QT'ing them first for 3 weeks at the shop to make DAMN sure they were disease free and eating. BIG MISTAKE. The shop owner is as mad as I am because he knew I was new to the Discus hobby and a new customer! He will credit me for any fish that dies. He personally came to my home twice to help out - he wanted to net out the fish and take them back for treatment - but he and I were unable to catch them. 500 gallons with all kinds of wood and rocks makes for a great hiding place for fish. We spent hours trying to catch them and finally gave up. Like I said - he was more sad than me.

Now all I can do is watch them waste away - I have already lost one. The other 3 are soon to follow. The one Red Mellon that seems to have the same problem seems to be recovering. He eats and has not lost any where near the weight of the others.

And I also have a tank full of decomposed Metro that will take lots of water changes to get rid of.

So this is my story ... It's my hope that I can get the tank stable after many more months before I consider adding any more Discus. Seeing the 5 Red Mellons in a 500g aquarium all by themselves is not that impressive as having 20 discus (my goal) - but they are beautiful. And the tetra's are fun to watch school as well (200 makes for a great display).

I'll try and post video/more pics when the tank clears up and I am proud of it.

Also - ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate are zero. Ph is about 7.5, water temp is 85. I have some java moss and an amazon sword trying to grow.

[Finatic]

Even though your experience has started out for the worse, it does sound like you have some local dealers who are reputable and willing to work with you. They realize that you being a new customer, and one willing to shell out some dough for a magnificant set-up, they dont want to lose you due to a bad experience.

I learned the hard way that all new fish need to be QT for observation and ease of control in medicating and treatment. fFortunately my problems were only Ick, although I did lose 1 sapphire to toxic ammonia since I basically poisoned them with the drip method after a long transport.

The group here at simply is great in talking you through this though, so if anything, we learn from our mistakes. Now my fish look great and are eating machines, and soon you will have a positive experience as well.

Good Luck. Cant wait to see your tank in all of its glory!

[scuba guy]

This site has been terrific (and Discus_Dude on the other site) in walking me through the tough times.

My wife and I designed and built a new house and this time I thought I could do one thing behind the bar that I always wanted - a big show tank! The bar, aquarium and aquarium room behind the tank are custom built. I'll post a pic of the behind set-up. The lighting is computer controlled so I can mimic sunrise, sunset and peak light during the day. I have 3 halides and T5 florescents so I can place plants over time. Right now I have the lights low so I can control the algae - seems to be working.

But damn if I didn't forget to plumb for hot water ($#()#$(*&#$)(#*&$) or allow for a Quarantine tank set up. It's tight back there.

The fish supply shop owners are very reputable and would gladly have QT'd my purchase for me - they only sell Discus! but I didn't know to ask. (they should have offered though ....). Feeding them with Metro is all it would have taken.

Lesson learned. I hate becoming an expert this way.

[Darrell Ward]

Although I love discus and have a few dozen, a 500 gal. tank is not a great discus tank. It's so large that even adult discus will look small in there. You are already experiencing the issues of trying to catch and treat sick fish in that thing. I have a 240 gal. so I can relate to trying to catch a discus in "an acre of real estate". I would suggest using Peacock Bass (Cichla) in a large tank like a 500 gal. They are very colorful as adults, and grow large enough (around 20" or so in captivity) to stand out in a large tank. A school of large fish in a large display is much more interesting than a large display with smallish fish. :D

[mmorris]

But damn if I didn't forget to plumb for hot water ($#()#$(*&#$)(#*&$) or allow for a Quarantine tank set up. It's tight back there.

The fish supply shop owners are very reputable and would gladly have QT'd my purchase for me - they only sell Discus! but I didn't know to ask. (they should have offered though ....). Feeding them with Metro is all it would have taken.

Lesson learned. I hate becoming an expert this way.

No matter how long someone quarantines your fish for you, you still need to quarantine when they arrive at your home. If someone does it for you, then either they have to receive no new fish of any sort for the duration of the quarantine (a month, IMO) or they have to keep your fish in strict isolation, accessories and all. Either scenario is, I think, expecting too much of a seller. Secondly, the stress of transport to your home may allow issues to develop and so it's wise to see how they get on first in a tank of more manageable proportions. I recommend you get a 20 gal. or larger, heater, filter and tand cover for your next delivery. A quarantine tank can go anywhere - I recommend in another room to your display tank. You'll have your beautiful show tank one day. Sit tight, read, and do what you have to do. :)

[mmorris]

... a 500 gal. tank is not a great discus tank.

Gotta disagree with you there. I think it would be awesome. :)

[Darrell Ward]

Check out this tank as an example, you'll see what I mean. If you had the same amount of discus in this tank, it would still have lots of empty space. I borrowed this pic from another forum...

[mmorris]

That's a great looking tank, Darrell. Now, just imagine it stocked with discus! :D

[David Rose]

Welcome to SD! There are some great folks here and I'm sure you will learn a lot just as I have.

Maybe someone here can advise on how to catch sick fish in such a large tank, but given quarantine doesn't seem possible at the moment. I would have to wonder if the members here on SD can advise on a treatment plan for your sick discus and what the risk are for the healthy ones?

Based on your picutres, it appears to me that there is an issue with Hex. Would it be possible for you to set up a tank within a tank? Perahps an inexpensive storage container or DIY foam container big enough for a heater and aeration?

If you want more attention regarding diagnoisis and treatment, you many also want to start a thread in the Disease and Medication section http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

Take care,

[scuba guy]

Although I love discus and have a few dozen, a 500 gal. tank is not a great discus tank. It's so large that even adult discus will look small in there. You are already experiencing the issues of trying to catch and treat sick fish in that thing. I have a 240 gal. so I can relate to trying to catch a discus in "an acre of real estate". I would suggest using Peacock Bass (Cichla) in a large tank like a 500 gal. They are very colorful as adults, and grow large enough (around 20" or so in captivity) to stand out in a large tank. A school of large fish in a large display is much more interesting than a large display with smallish fish. :D


Imagine a school of Discus !! Not 5 or 6 but 20 to 30!
That has got to be amazing assuming I get there.

(but just to be on the safe side since I could lose them all - I am going to do some reading on Peacock Bass!).

[Darrell Ward]

For what it's worth, I've had up to 30 discus at a time in my 240 gal. with a 55 gal. sump. In all honesty, a dozen discus in one of my 125 gals. makes a better display. It's a size proportion ratio thing.

[zamboniMan]

You could get a couple (one for each hand) of extended handle nets (I've seen these at petsmart. They come in all sizes and some of them are really long.

Nice tank by the way.

Josh

[Darrell Ward]

Best way I've found to remove a fish from a big tank is to trap it in the corner up against the glass. Then you can slide the net with the fish against the glass to the surface. That is, if you can catch the fish off guard in the corner. You can chase it to the corner, but then the fish knows you're chasing it, which makes it harder. :D

[smiley]

I have had a bad experience of catching a Mono fish in one of 55Gal planted tank so i can just imagine what u r going thru..

Best of luck with the fishes...treatment without catching them would be like pouring salt into the ocean

[smiley]

but then the fish knows you're chasing it, which makes it harder. :D

They do know it very fast...the others stay calm but the one you are after is always the toughest to catch :D

[Scribbles]

It's easier to catch them after the lights have been out for a couple of hours. When they are resting they are not as alert.

Chris

[scuba guy]

Update:

It's been a few months since I last wrote about my new first Discus aquarium and immediate problems.

I lost the last of my sick discus a few days ago. I'm amazed at how long they can survive without eating - months ... just wasting away until they take their last breath. It was heart wrenching, but I could not catch them even until the last moment. Out of the total 10 discus I started with, I have six remaining.

The four leopards and one Red Melon did not eat from the beginning and all exhibited signs of Hex. The other 5 Red Melon's ate like pigs and continue to thrive. They are easily twice the size they were when I bought them in October - and they have attitude (spit at you, attack anything remotely like food - behave more like Angels than Discus, in my view). I thought they would all die from the infestation - but as in the wild, those that are strong can survive. My water quality apparently is good enough to help them develop strong immune systems to the parasites.

Out of the 4 Leopards, one survived - and just about two weeks that lone Leopard - who was as emaciated as the rest - started to eat!! After two weeks his color is back and he comes out of hiding to join the others. He is emaciated, but doesn't look bad. And now I am beginning to see a little belly on him as he starts to eat more. He's not as aggressive as the others so I have to make sure he gets his share - but he eats.

I did not know that Discus can recover from Hex on their own. It's possible my earlier treatment gave him a leg up - but who knows.

I don't know if I will add any more Discus. I am fearful of disease - not of the incoming fish but of my Aquarium passing it on to the new fish. I don't know how long I should wait.

I still would like to have my 500 gallon aquarium be home to about 25 discus.

This forum has been great for both information and support. What a trip.

Thanks

Z