water changes

[springer]

I always age my water for 2 days before doing a water change. However I was wondering if one uses prime or a similar chemical can you mix it with tap water in a barrel and then use it for your tank, without aging it. Thank you.

[Eddie]

I always age my water for 2 days before doing a water change. However I was wondering if one uses prime or a similar chemical can you mix it with tap water in a barrel and then use it for your tank, without aging it. Thank you.

I dont even do that, I drain the tank 100% (fish on sides) add Prime to the tank and then fill from tap. I've actually switched to Seachem Safe, which is a concentrated powder form of Prime. I still do the same method. ;)

HTH
Eddie

[scottishbloke]

I learned how to do it from Eddie above- drain tank until the fish are lying on their sides (I was scared to do that until I saw a crazy video of an Asian breeder doing a water change posted on another thread, he was NOT gentle), wiping down all surfaces/filter intakes/driftwood branches etc with paper towel to remove slime coat and dislodge stubborn debris as it drains, add Aquasafe directly to the tank (Prime is too expensive for doing constant 100% water changes on a 90g as far as my meager budget is concerned), and fill back up straight from tap with a hose, the water at the correct temperature. Best way to do it quick IMHO- though I know others have big aging barrels that they use.

Just my $0.02

Colin

[bettebulldog]

Depends on how stable your water is. If your tap water is the same as your aged water then yes you could fill your tank from the tap w/ conditioner of your choice.

[Eddie]

I learned how to do it from Eddie above- drain tank until the fish are lying on their sides (I was scared to do that until I saw a crazy video of an Asian breeder doing a water change posted on another thread, he was NOT gentle), wiping down all surfaces/filter intakes/driftwood branches etc with paper towel to remove slime coat and dislodge stubborn debris as it drains, add Aquasafe directly to the tank (Prime is too expensive for doing constant 100% water changes on a 90g as far as my meager budget is concerned), and fill back up straight from tap with a hose, the water at the correct temperature. Best way to do it quick IMHO- though I know others have big aging barrels that they use.

Just my $0.02

Colin

Colin, switch to SAFE, its DEFINITELY worth it. 1 Kilo container will last you a year!

Eddie

[David Rose]

It depends on your source water. If your pH fluctuates over 24 to 48 hrs, you will need to age it by adding aeration to gas off the CO2 that causes the pH to start out lower then stablize at its true level. It may only take a day, but if you test after 24hrs then 48hrs, you will know how long to age.

Some just use barrels to store sufficient quantities of water to all the water changes they need at once.

Adding Prime directly to the barrel can cause a slime build up in your aging barrel. Best to add your dechlor directly to the tank first then refill.

[Jhhnn]

If the ph of aerated tap water doesn't change significantly over 48 hrs, then, yeh, sure, you can fill from the tap, adding prime first.

The slime David references when using prime in aging barrels is actually aerobic bacteria. It can be pronounced if your water is high in organics. OTOH, you can think of it as a biological pre-filter, too...

I'm kinda old skool in a lot of ways, I still age the fish water for 24hrs, regardless...

[David Rose]

If the ph of aerated tap water doesn't change significantly over 48 hrs, then, yeh, sure, you can fill from the tap, adding prime first.

The slime David references when using prime in aging barrels is actually aerobic bacteria. It can be pronounced if your water is high in organics. OTOH, you can think of it as a biological pre-filter, too...

I'm kinda old skool in a lot of ways, I still age the fish water for 24hrs, regardless...


Hi Jhhnn,

Would 100% RO water in my aging barrel be high in organics?

Take care,
David

[Jhhnn]

Hi Jhhnn,

Would 100% RO water in my aging barrel be high in organics?

I wouldn't think so. OTOH, when I check the slime in my own prime conditioned tap water aging barrels, it's teeming with bacteria... I figure they're eating something.

Exploring with my new/used microscope from ebay- my Christmas present to myself. The wife and I have a deal about that- she picks hers, I pick mine, we both get what we want...

[rich815]

I dont even do that, I drain the tank 100% (fish on sides) add Prime to the tank and then fill from tap. I've actually switched to Seachem Safe, which is a concentrated powder form of Prime. I still do the same method. ;)

HTH
Eddie

Wow, really fish on their sides? I sort of wondered what people did when they said 100% WC.....

How much time can/should elapse between the water being 100% drained, fish on their sides, and the water being filled back up? And does this not stres them much?

[David Rose]

I wouldn't think so. OTOH, when I check the slime in my own prime conditioned tap water aging barrels, it's teeming with bacteria... I figure they're eating something.

Exploring with my new/used microscope from ebay- my Christmas present to myself. The wife and I have a deal about that- she picks hers, I pick mine, we both get what we want...


Enjoy the microscope! I bought one awhile back and haven't even plugged it in yet to figure out how to use it. I haven't used once since 10th grade biology class over 30 yrs ago....LOL

[scottishbloke]

Colin, switch to SAFE, its DEFINITELY worth it. 1 Kilo container will last you a year!

Eddie

Eddie- that's pretty good value, I agree! I'm going to look into it and find out if anywhere in my area sells it. I'm assuming it's available through online mail order too. Thanks for the advice, mate :)

Cheers,

Colin
P.S. My wife must really like these fish- she volunteered to help me do a WC yesterday for the very first time ever :D Or maybe she wants something and is gathering brownie points ;) Either way, I'm happy with the help...maybe I can train her to do the daily 100% WC for my new fry I got from Sabres1...

[Eddie]

Wow, really fish on their sides? I sort of wondered what people did when they said 100% WC.....

How much time can/should elapse between the water being 100% drained, fish on their sides, and the water being filled back up? And does this not stres them much?

Not long at all, it takes me about 30-45 min to completely drain and fill 4 each 55 gallon tanks. If I had better water pressure, this time would be cut in half. :D


Eddie- that's pretty good value, I agree! I'm going to look into it and find out if anywhere in my area sells it. I'm assuming it's available through online mail order too. Thanks for the advice, mate :)

Cheers,

Colin
P.S. My wife must really like these fish- she volunteered to help me do a WC yesterday for the very first time ever :D Or maybe she wants something and is gathering brownie points ;) Either way, I'm happy with the help...maybe I can train her to do the daily 100% WC for my new fry I got from Sabres1...

Yeah, I get mine through 4fishstuff.com. There are alot of goodies coming from that site. Super fast shipping and outstanding customer service.

Maybe your wife read about my tactics in getting my wife involved. It involves Victoria's Secret and my credit card! LOL :o

All the best

Eddie

[scottthomas]

Eddie, If you see this:

I change about 150-200 gallons a day. How much cheaper is Safe than Prime. I cant really tell by the description how much water it treats. It says use the included measure to treat 15 gallons. I use 4 capfuls of prime to treat my 300 gallons of storage water. My PH is low and water is heated and soft so takes a little less than directions on the Prime bottle actually states.

[Eddie]

Eddie, If you see this:

I change about 150-200 gallons a day. How much cheaper is Safe than Prime. I cant really tell by the description how much water it treats. It says use the included measure to treat 15 gallons. I use 4 capfuls of prime to treat my 300 gallons of storage water. My PH is low and water is heated and soft so takes a little less than directions on the Prime bottle actually states.

Scott, trust me, DROP the Prime. 1 Kilo of SAFE will last you an entire year!

http://www.4fishstuff.com/product_info.php?cPath=59_153&products_id=1284

HTH

Eddie

[ihor]

Wow, can't believe the water changes some folks do. I know this has been discussed so many times before, and the bottom line is basically do what works for you. I have a 75 gal planted tank, 5 full grown discuss that I bought as 2 1/2 inch juveniles, 9 rummy nose, 5 pretty tetras, 2 chain loaches, 1 zebra loach, and a dwarf pleco. I do a 25% water change every 2 weeks, cleaning one of my two Rena's every other week. I age my water for two weeks, immediately refilling my water containers after each water change. Probably don't need to do this, but its habit. My discuss are now spawning, although eggs don't make it through the night. No disease issues, fish are very healthy, and take food from my fingers. SO again, regarding 100% water changes - wow. Not for me.

[Eddie]

Wow, can't believe the water changes some folks do. I know this has been discussed so many times before, and the bottom line is basically do what works for you. I have a 75 gal planted tank, 5 full grown discuss that I bought as 2 1/2 inch juveniles, 9 rummy nose, 5 pretty tetras, 2 chain loaches, 1 zebra loach, and a dwarf pleco. I do a 25% water change every 2 weeks, cleaning one of my two Rena's every other week. I age my water for two weeks, immediately refilling my water containers after each water change. Probably don't need to do this, but its habit. My discuss are now spawning, although eggs don't make it through the night. No disease issues, fish are very healthy, and take food from my fingers. SO again, regarding 100% water changes - wow. Not for me.

Got any pictures of those full grown discus, all 5?

[rich815]

Got any pictures of those full grown discus, all 5?

I'd love to see too, how big are they? (in inches)

[ihor]

I'll try to post. Need my daughter to help.

[ihor]

Here are some pics of my discuss and 75 gal planted tank. Again, 25% water change once every two weeks. Fish spawned once just before Christmas and look to be getting ready again.

[rich815]

Here are some pics of my discuss and 75 gal planted tank. Again, 25% water change once every two weeks. Fish spawned once just before Christmas and look to be getting ready again.

Call the daughter! No photos! ;)

[ihor]

Another try with pictures.

[diamond_discus]

Eddie :

Did you look at ClorAm-X from Jehmco ? I am almost done with my Prime .. and I was thinking about switching to ClorAm-X until I saw your post on using Safe ... Wondering which is a better and more economical project to replace Prime.

[Eddie]

Another try with pictures.

Pretty nice, do you have any pictures of when they were babies?

[Eddie]

Eddie :

Did you look at ClorAm-X from Jehmco ? I am almost done with my Prime .. and I was thinking about switching to ClorAm-X until I saw your post on using Safe ... Wondering which is a better and more economical project to replace Prime.

I dont know exactly, as I never used ChlorAm-X, except I know I wont need to buy more Safe until the 2011. I am only changing about 300 gallons of water a day though so not sure which would be a better way to go. I know SAFE is a million times more cost effective than Prime though. :o


Eddie

[htruong]

Wow, can't believe the water changes some folks do. I know this has been discussed so many times before, and the bottom line is basically do what works for you. I have a 75 gal planted tank, 5 full grown discuss that I bought as 2 1/2 inch juveniles, 9 rummy nose, 5 pretty tetras, 2 chain loaches, 1 zebra loach, and a dwarf pleco. I do a 25% water change every 2 weeks, cleaning one of my two Rena's every other week. I age my water for two weeks, immediately refilling my water containers after each water change. Probably don't need to do this, but its habit. My discuss are now spawning, although eggs don't make it through the night. No disease issues, fish are very healthy, and take food from my fingers. SO again, regarding 100% water changes - wow. Not for me.

Hi Ihor, The reason Eddie changes water 100% daily b/c he feeds them cheese burger :)

[Eddie]

Hi Ihor, The reason Eddie changes water 100% daily b/c he feeds them cheese burger :)

No, its fish/shrimp/porkheart burgers with spinach leaf and garlic butter! :D


I change alot of water because alot of my fish are still growing. Doing it once a day is better then some who change out water in the tanks 4 times a day. :D When I retire, I'll opt for the 4 times a day. ;)

Eddie

[scottishbloke]

Hey Eddie, I'm thinking of going all the way and getting the 4kg SAFE bucket from Custom Aquatics (would cost around $22 per kilo including shipping, even more cost effective), which will likely last the lifespan of my fish!!! $88 is a lot to shell out at once for water conditioner though, especially after Xmas expenses and my supply of cash is running low...the wife might kick my rear end or worse (the headline: "Scotsman Drowned In New Year Fish Tank Horror"). But if I wait till next month, it may not be on sale any more...can't decide what to do...:confused:

Cheers Lads, Lasses, Happy New Year :D

Colin

[Eddie]

Hey Eddie, I'm thinking of going all the way and getting the 4kg SAFE bucket from Custom Aquatics (would cost around $22 per kilo including shipping, even more cost effective), which will likely last the lifespan of my fish!!! $88 is a lot to shell out at once for water conditioner though, especially after Xmas expenses and my supply of cash is running low...the wife might kick my rear end or worse (the headline: "Scotsman Drowned In New Year Fish Tank Horror"). But if I wait till next month, it may not be on sale any more...can't decide what to do...:confused:

Cheers Lads, Lasses, Happy New Year :D

Colin

Colin, I think you should pick up the 30 dollar 1 kilo container from 4fishstuff.com. You wont even need another one for a long time! ;)


Eddie

[RD.]

I've been using ChlorAm-X for several yrs now, but depending on the price (shipped) Safe may be even more cost effective.

For those of you that only have chlorine treated tap water (not chloramine) don't waste your money on either, buy some bulk sodium thiosulfate. It's FAR cheaper than using anything else on the market, and just as effective in neutralizing chlorine.
http://www.wchemical.com/SODIUM-THIOSULFATE-P51C9.aspx

1 pound will treat approx 30,000 gallons of chlorine treated tap water. (@ 3.75 ppm chlorine)
So unless my math is off, for $60.00, the 40lb bucket would treat approx 1.2 million gallons of water. :)

Four ounces of sodium thiosulfate crystals to one gallon of distilled water will make your stock solution, then treat tap water with 1 drop solution per gallon.




HTH

[Jhhnn]

I've been using ChlorAm-X for several yrs now, but depending on the price (shipped) Safe may be even more cost effective.

For those of you that only have chlorine treated tap water (not chloramine) don't waste your money on either, buy some bulk sodium thiosulfate. It's FAR cheaper than using anything else on the market, and just as effective in neutralizing chlorine.
http://www.wchemical.com/SODIUM-THIOSULFATE-P51C9.aspx

1 pound will treat approx 30,000 gallons of chlorine treated tap water. (@ 3.75 ppm chlorine)
So unless my math is off, for $60.00, the 40lb bucket would treat approx 1.2 million gallons of water. :)

Four ounces of sodium thiosulfate crystals to one gallon of distilled water will make your stock solution, then treat tap water with 1 drop solution per gallon.

HTH

The only problem with that is that more and more providers are switching to chloramines, for a variety of reasons. And it's not like they make some big announcement, either- the water just changes.

There was a big brouhaha among aquarists here in Denver some years ago wrt that. People started having problems after water changes, sometimes fatal to their fishes... Denver Water had switched to chloramines. This was before the internet had become the great resource it is today... so nobody knew what was happening unless they inquired with Denver Water. Word did get out via petshops, clubs and finally an article in the newspaper, but not before a lot of grief came to pass...

I use prime, and see the use of premium water conditioners as a minor expense in the greater scheme of things. I generally order more when I'm getting other stuff, to save on shipping. And, it seems, I'm always ordering more stuff, particularly from Kensfish. When and if he offers Safe, I'll probably try that.

In the meanwhile, prime has served me well, and I figure that if it's not broke, don't fix it...

[RD.]

Certainly one has to know how their local water supply is being treated before choosing a water conditioner. I was once in the same situation as you were, where Joe Public didn't even know the local water went from chlorine treated, to chloramine. Having said that there are areas in North America that are & will be on chlorine systems for many years to come, even larger centers such as Vancouver Canada still use chlorine as their main water treatment. For those people Prime, Safe etc are a rather expensive way to simply convert chlorine to chloride.

I used Prime for many years, but for myself found Cloram-x to be more cost effective, and if not for our higher pH (and chloramine treated tap water) I would still be using bulk sodium thiosulfate. While you may not want to fix something that in your mind isn't broke, consider this, with ClorAm-X you don't have to treat the entire tank volume (which Seachem recommends with Prime), only the amount of water being replaced, and unlike Prime which dissipates from one ones system within 24 hrs, ClorAm-x remains active for up to 72 hrs. In my case it simply equated to more bang for my buck.
I think I switched from Prime approx 7 yrs ago, and have never regretted the change. If Seachem Safe was more readily available here in Canada, I might have gone that route. Jehmco's price of $57.00 for 10lb's of ClorAm-X is an absolute bargain.

But for those that are on chlorine systems, buying sodium thiosulfate in bulk is IMO the only way to fly. How can you possibly beat $60 for 1.2 million gallons worth of water changes? This is the exact same product that all of the larger commercial hatcheries, public aquariums, etc use to treat their water. (where chlorine is used)

[rickztahone]

...While you may not want to fix something that in your mind isn't broke, consider this, with ClorAm-X you don't have to treat the entire tank volume (which Seachem recommends with Prime), only the amount of water being replaced...


I have always just added enough prime to treat the water i'm putting in, i did not even know i was suppose to treat the whole tank volume each time, rather than just the water replaced. needless to say i haven't had any problems till this day, but maybe i should start reading labels eh?

[RD.]

The only way that one can truly know how much Prime (or whatever) to add to their tank is by knowing what quantity of chlorine or chloramine is being added by their local water treatment facility, or more importantly, what the rate is as it leaves the facility for end use. Without that data, it becomes purely hit or miss.

edited to add - was reading some very old data on Prime, hence some serious miscalculations in my comment. oops. :)

[kaceyo]

Very good info RD. I have often pointed out that you must know how much of each (ammo, chlorine, Chloramin) a product removes in a given amount of water before comparing prices, but you stated it much better.

Kacey

[RD.]

Thanks Kacey, but my last comment had some serious miscalculations. :)
Let me attempt this again using Safe as an example.

According to Seachems website;

Directions:

To remove…

Chlorine: use 1 measure to each 60 L (15 gallons*) of tap water (removes 1 ppm).

Chloramine: use 1 measure to each 75 L (20 gallons*) of tap water (removes 1 ppm).

Ammonia: use 1 measure to each 11 L (3 gallons*) of tap water (removes 1 ppm). Do not overdose!

Using chloramine as an example, 1 measure (100 mg) is only a reference point. In reality most municipalities will be using somewhere between 2-3 mg/l, some possibly higher, which means one would need to be using 2-3 measures for each 20 gallons of new water, not just a single scoop.

Once you can determine the exact amount required in order to treat your local water, you can then begin to compare overall cost savings from one water conditioner to another.

[kaceyo]

No prob RD. I wasn't commenting on your math so much as that people need to consider the amounts of each compound that a "standard dose" will detoxify in a given amount of water before comparing prices.

Kacey

[Jhhnn]

I have no argument wrt chloram-x, amquel+, safe, prime, or any other conditioner that neutralizes chloramines, RD. I see it as a matter of personal preference among them. If people seek to economize as part of the process choosing among them, I see no harm. If such decisions were critical for me, I'd re-think the whole idea of keeping discus, because that's really a very minor part of my total expenditures on the hobby. Which doesn't mean that I'm a spendthrift, either. Ken's prices and shipping are highly competitive, and I'll do business with him when I can because he's a sponsor here.

My point was that things change and we're often not aware that they have. Even if my provider didn't use chloramines, I'd want the peace of mind provided by a product that protects my fish from surprises. It's not like I'd make an effort to keep up with what my provider were doing no matter where I lived. Most providers don't offer the kind of excellent information available on the Denver Water website, either. That's particularly true for smaller providers.

As a minor point, the instructions for prime are to use the appropriate amount for new water, not for the whole tank-


Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

It's also useful in reducing ammonia and nitrite toxicity when biofilters have been damaged or destroyed by meds. I'm sure the same applies to the other premium products, as well.

I'm confident that the concentration of sterilizing agents varies somewhat over time on the way from the treatment plant to my house, and also seasonally, as per the Denver water site. With prime, I'm not using a super concentrated product where dosage is critical. I have the leeway to use the recommended dose, forget about the details, particularly since I age prime conditioned water before adding it to my tanks. My fish thrive, and I don't have to fuss with it- I get enough of that testing the usual water parameters on a regular basis.

Others are welcome to take their own chances, but I think it's important for them to know that they are taking a (small?) chance if they're using sodium thiosulfate alone. That's all I really wanted to say.

[Eddie]

Just trying to save everyone hundreds of dollars, switch to SAFE. ;)

[RD.]

LOL, I'm with Eddie.

In my case it wasn't just a case of looking to economize, it was wanting to add the least amount of chemicals to my tank as humanly possible. Healthy fish don't need a slime coat additive with each water change, and with a properly balanced tank one doesn't have to be concerned about nitrate &/or nitrite toxicity. That's what water changes are for. :)


BTW - those instructions for Prime are only if one pre-treats the new water, before adding said water to the tank.

"If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume."

Just thought that I would mention that for those that fill dirrectly from the tap.

[Jhhnn]

Somehow, RD., I don't think your interpretation of the dosing instructions for prime are correct. From that POV, adding prime to the tank and then changing 10% or 100% of the tank water would require the same dose, which makes no sense. The reaction between prime (or any of the other water conditioners) and the target chemicals has to be exothermic, where the recombination of molecules moves them to a lower energy state. Otherwise, it wouldn't happen at all. Remembering basic chemistry from years ago, such reactions occur very quickly, regardless of the concentration level. There's no reason I can see for prime and chloram-x to act differently in that respect.

It also runs counter to my own experience and that of a huge number of others who dose prime in relation to new water only, straight from the tap or aged.

I think the instructions refer to a new tank or to a tank not previously treated with prime... I'll agree that the instructions are vague in that respect.

Treating new water only, the price delta between prime and chloram-x is a wash, coming out to $.0015/ gal for either at Ken's prices for the largest quantity...

[RD.]

My interpretation was based on Seachem's interpretation, as it was explained to me many years ago by a Seachem rep. As I recall it had to do with ensuring that the dechlorinator was in fact mixing fully with all of the new water as it's being introduced to the tank. In a tank full of live fish the mix needs to be instantaneous, or very close to it, especially when dealing with chloramine. Keep in mind that some species are far more sensitive to these chemicals (including ammonia) than other species.

Seachem has the exact same instructions for Safe.


May be added to aquarium directly, but is better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. If temperature is > 30 C (86 F) cut dosing in half.

Personally I always treated for the water being replaced, and pre-mixed the Prime in a 1 gallon jug & added that mix in stages while the tank was filling.
It gave me a bit more piece of mind for the odd nosey fish that liked to get it's face in front of the current from the hose. I typically do the same thing with ClorAm-X.

As far as cost, that would depend on where one lives, shipping costs, taxes, tariffs, etc. From where I sit, everything sold in the US appears quite inexpensive to me. :)

[RD.]

From the Seachem website:

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Safe.html


Q: I keep Discus and do daily water changes of anywhere from 20-75%. SAFE was recommended to me by a local pet store. I have been using Start Right or equivalent to dechlorinate, but my local water department is switching to chloramine and I am looking for a solution. I usually dose the water after draining the desired percentage and refill my tanks right out of the tap. There are warnings SAFE not to overdose. Will I be able to use this product in the same manner as start right?

A: Safe™ can be used to remove chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. It is recommend that you use the recommended amount, especially when removing elevated levels of ammonia (the dose would be higher than if you were treating for chloramines or chlorine).
When treating your system, after you have completed filling up the tank, use the recommend dose for removing chloramines. You will need to dose the entire system water volume because the chloramines have had a change to circulate through your water (if performing a water top off or change from a bucket it is only necessary to treat that the new water).



Not exactly a crystal clear explanation there either. lol

[Jhhnn]

Sounds peachy, RD., except that doesn't explain why or how cloram-x would behave any differently. Reactant concentration levels affect both products, reducing the conversion rate.

Wrt dosing, what's true for one is true for the other at a molecular level. If anything, the advice to add conditioner only after filling exposes fish to a higher intermediate concentration of sterilizing agents. The advice to dose at a level appropriate for the whole tank exposes fish to a higher end concentration of non-reacted neutralizing agent, as well.

If you want to offer that cloram-x is a superior product because the instructions for prime/safe are nonsensical from a chemist's pov, I'll buy that. If you want to offer it up as an argument for premixing water and conditioner in a separate container, I'd accept that as valid, too.

I think Seachem let the marketing guys, rather than the chemists, write the instructions for Prime... their objective always being to sell more product. They get away with it because of the low toxicity of what they're selling. Which is an entirely valid reason to switch products, something I'll likely do when I need to reorder...

The product is good, I'm sure, but the perception that their marketing guys are trying to pump sunshine up my skirt is highly objectionable... Thanks for pointing that out...

[RD.]

All of the ammonia removal products on the market work essentially the same way. (reducing agents) They reduce chlorine to choride and chemically bind ammonia, but the exact chemical species used can be all slightly different. The exact how's & whys of each of those chemical species is beyond me, I don't produce or market either product, nor am I a chemist.
So don't shoot the messenger. :)

The fact that a company rep would suggest adding conditioner after the fact, especially when the consumer had mentioned 75% water changes, is quite shocking to me. The fact that this is actually posted on their website is even more shocking. If I still used Prime I would probably take the time to contact Dr. Greg Morin & point that comment out, and ask for a detailed explanation as to why one should be required to treat the entire tank volume when adding tap water directly back to the tank, vs pre-mixing the new water. If you would like his email addy feel free to shoot me a PM.

Having said that, without knowing the chlorine or chloramine levels used by your local water company, one may in fact be treating the entire tank volume, without even knowing it. You stated previously:
It also runs counter to my own experience and that of a huge number of others who dose prime in relation to new water only, straight from the tap or aged.

Yet my experience over the years has been that the vast majority of hobbyists do not even know what the level of chlorine/chloramine being used by their local water supplier is. I'm guessing that the same would hold true for most members of this forum. So perhaps 1 cap of Prime per 50 gallons is accurate for some people, while others 1 cap would treat 100 gallons of water.

According to Seachem:


Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine.

Going by those specs, the vast majority of hobbyists that have chloramine treated water, would be able to use less than one cap full per 50 gallons of new water, as very few if any water treatment facilities in NA have water leaving their plant with 4 mg/l of chloramine. The vast majority would fall between 2-3 mg/l, so in many cases using half a cap full for 50 gallons of chloramine treated tap water would suffice. That's a significant difference, when you now consider that a 500 ml container of Prime could treat 10,000 gallons of water, vs the 5,000 gallons printed on the label. The EPA's set max for chloramine is 4 mg/l, so perhaps that's why Seachem targeted that strength in their formula? Our local water supply contains approx 2 mg/l of chloramine.


Most consumers prefer liquid products for their ease of use, but generally the dry powder versions are always more concentrated, and more economical. This is most certainly the case with Prime/Safe, as it is with any/all water conditioners on the market that are sodium thiosulfate based.

For those that have a greater comfort zone with liquid products, by all means continue using them.

HTH

[diamond_discus]

So what is the conclusion ? Safe Powder or CLORAM-X powder ? Seems like price wise they are about the same. I am running out of my liquid Prime and need to order some quick.

[RD.]

You'll have to do your own math, as previously stated it all boils down to what & how much you are treating. (chlorine or chloramine & at what levels)

[Eddie]

So what is the conclusion ? Safe Powder or CLORAM-X powder ? Seems like price wise they are about the same. I am running out of my liquid Prime and need to order some quick.

Either way, you'll be saving money but if you already use Prime, SAFE is the way to go IMO.


Eddie

[diamond_discus]

http://www.dtpetsupplies.com
They are selling 4KG Safe for $72.99

Since I am going to order other stuff from Jehmco, I think I will order CLORAM-X this time. I don't think they carry Seachem Safe.

Thanks, Eddie & RD for all the info.

[Eddie]

http://www.dtpetsupplies.com
They are selling 4KG Safe for $72.99

Since I am going to order other stuff from Jehmco, I think I will order CLORAM-X this time. I don't think they carry Seachem Safe.

Thanks, Eddie & RD for all the info.

4K of Safe will last me more than 4 years, LOL. Seriously! The 1 K is gonna last me about a year and a half.


Eddie

[RD.]

When you consider the price of a 4L jug of Prime, 4KG of Safe for $72.99 is a smoking hot deal. So good, that I decided to order a pail here:
http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=AD-SC389

Thanks for the nudge, Eddie. :D

[diamond_discus]

Eddie / RD :

So is it really true that you need to add enough Safe for full tank, even for partial water change ? And for CLORAM-X, you only need to add for the new water ?

[MGKelly]

this is probably a rookie question and not to get off the subject, but what is the purpose of doing 100% water changes each day. I understand discus love clean water and we need to remove toxins, but how can the water possibly get that dirty in one day?
Ok i understand if you have fry and you want them to grow out properly, that makes sense.

It seems that the water can never be clean enough? When do we reach the point of just wasting water?

Joe

[Jhhnn]

When you consider the price of a 4L jug of Prime, 4KG of Safe for $72.99 is a smoking hot deal. So good, that I decided to order a pail here:
http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=AD-SC389

Thanks for the nudge, Eddie. :D

Heh. Just about the time you have me convinced that Seachem is basically dishonest and unscientific wrt their dosing instructions, you decide to buy their stuff...

Given that I age my water in barrels, those weird instructions don't apply to me personally, but they're still... disturbing...

If nothing else, this discussion has prompted me to look at my own situation a little more critically, gather information. The recommended dose of prime treats for chloramine at 4mg/L. Safe instructions are for 1mg/L, cloram-x for 3.2mg/L.

Safe may not be quite as good a buy as it would seem to be at first glance, but that's marketing, right?

Digging a little deeper into the Denver water site the max concentration of chloramine for water leaving their plants in 2009 was 1.9mg/L, the average was 1.27. For the preceding 3 years, the max was 2.06ml/L.

Basically, I can use 1/2 the recommended dose of prime, a little more than that for cloram-x, but would need twice the recommended dose of safe...

Think I'll cut back to 3/4 dosing on Prime, then to 1/2 if that works well, see what happens...

Live and learn, right?

[Eddie]

Eddie / RD :

So is it really true that you need to add enough Safe for full tank, even for partial water change ? And for CLORAM-X, you only need to add for the new water ?

No, you will only treat for the amount of the new water being added.

HTH

Eddie

[Eddie]

Heh. Just about the time you have me convinced that Seachem is basically dishonest and unscientific wrt their dosing instructions, you decide to buy their stuff...

Given that I age my water in barrels, those weird instructions don't apply to me personally, but they're still... disturbing...

If nothing else, this discussion has prompted me to look at my own situation a little more critically, gather information. The recommended dose of prime treats for chloramine at 4mg/L. Safe instructions are for 1mg/L, cloram-x for 3.2mg/L.

Safe may not be quite as good a buy as it would seem to be at first glance, but that's marketing, right?

Digging a little deeper into the Denver water site the max concentration of chloramine for water leaving their plants in 2009 was 1.9mg/L, the average was 1.27. For the preceding 3 years, the max was 2.06ml/L.

Basically, I can use 1/2 the recommended dose of prime, a little more than that for cloram-x, but would need twice the recommended dose of safe...

Think I'll cut back to 3/4 dosing on Prime, then to 1/2 if that works well, see what happens...

Live and learn, right?

You'll still use less SAFE if you are gonna drop the amount of Prime. ;)

Eddie

[Eddie]

this is probably a rookie question and not to get off the subject, but what is the purpose of doing 100% water changes each day. I understand discus love clean water and we need to remove toxins, but how can the water possibly get that dirty in one day?
Ok i understand if you have fry and you want them to grow out properly, that makes sense.

It seems that the water can never be clean enough? When do we reach the point of just wasting water?

Joe

The amount of water you change is dependent on many different variables; tank size, stocking density, feeding schedule, type of foods, age of fish, blah blah blah blah. If your worried about wasting water, dont change it. ;)


Eddie

[scottishbloke]

When you consider the price of a 4L jug of Prime, 4KG of Safe for $72.99 is a smoking hot deal. So good, that I decided to order a pail here:
http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=AD-SC389

Thanks for the nudge, Eddie. :D

That's where I'm going to order mine too- made up my mind yesterday; when my wife discovered that I could get SAFE for about $22 per kg shipped by buying the big 4kg bucket as opposed to around $38/kg shipped (for the 1 kg jar), she said "get the big one, it'll last forever" :D

Colin

[Eddie]

That's where I'm going to order mine too- made up my mind yesterday; when my wife discovered that I could get SAFE for about $22 per kg shipped by buying the big 4kg bucket as opposed to around $38/kg shipped (for the 1 kg jar), she said "get the big one, it'll last forever" :D

Colin

Colin, also think about humidity and storage, somebody mentioned that it will last so long that it can turn into a rock in a high humidity environment. Just something to think about. I know Jhhnn mentioned silica gel sachets, which may be a good method.

Take care,

Eddie

[RD.]

DD - IMO all one needs to do is treat for the amount of water being changed, I suspect that the legal eagles at Seachem had that spiel placed on their labels & website as a CYA for a worse case scenario for those re-filling directly from their tap.


Jhhnn - Using Safe, and treating for 2mg/l of chloramine (such as I have to) a 4KG container of Safe will treat 400,000 gallons of water. With the current exchange rate I can't afford not to jump on a deal like that. :)

I still have approx 5 lb's of ClorAm-X in stock, so now I should be good for the next 10-15 yrs. lol

[diamond_discus]

Just check my water district website. It listed that chloramines is 1.97ppm detected, low/high range is 1.75 to 2.5 ppm.

According to Seachem Safe instruction, 1 measure = 100 mg will remove 1ppm of cholramine in 20 Gallon water. So, with my water parameter, I need 100mg for each 10 gallon water. So, a 4KG bucket of Safe will treat 400000 gallon of water, which will last 2667 days (7.3 years). Did I do my math correctly ?

$88 for 4KG, so it's about $1 a month ? Wow ...

[RD.]

I need 100mg for each 10 gallon water. So, a 4KG bucket of Safe will treat 400000 gallon of water

That would be correct. :)

[diamond_discus]

How do you convert mg to table spoon ?

[Eddie]

How do you convert mg to table spoon ?

You dont, its 2 different measurements.

SAFE has instructions for 1/4 tsp on the bottle. ;)

Eddie

[RD.]

what Eddie said. :)

[diamond_discus]

Thanks guy. This is too good ... I will order tomorrow :)

[Jhhnn]

I think for people buying the x-huge supply of safe, for example, that the answer to caking might be to mix a stock solution with maybe 1/2 kilo in distilled water, tape the lid shut on the rest in the original container, mix another batch as needed.

It can't cake if it's a liquid, and since it's the same stuff as prime, premixing it shouldn't be a problem...

I'd dose for the max concentration of chloramines, diamond discus, not the average...

[RD.]

It won't cake up unless it gets damp from humidity and if it does you just break it up. Been there, done that. I take out a few months worth of dry powder & store in a smaller container, and keep the larger container sealed tight in a dry location.

Seachem actually advises against pre-mixing Safe with water & storing it long term, as it doesn't contain stabilizing agents. (where Prime does)

[diamond_discus]

It's pretty dry out here at Los Angeles ...
BTW, the 4KG Safe is not available at customaquatic ... temporarily out of stock ... darn !

[RD.]

Sorry, I must have got the last one. lol

[diamond_discus]

BTW, Here's another reason why I decide on Safe instead of Cloram-x

"ClorAm-X should not be added to water containing active therapeutic dosages of dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine or malachite green. ClorAm-X will interfere with their performance. ClorAm-X in combination with these products will not result in toxic chemical by-products. "

http://www.reed-mariculture.com/cloram-x

Does anyone know if Seachem Safe will work on some of those popular medication ?

[RD.]

I seldom if ever use meds of any kind, so that has never been an issue for me. If it is, temporarily use a water conditioner that won't cause issues with those meds. Not a big deal overall, unless one is using a lot of meds in their tanks.

[RD.]

I contacted Greg Morin from Seachem this morning & I thought that some of you might be interested in the following info. Greg is not only the CEO of Seachem, but also has a Ph.D in this "stuff", so I felt that it would best to let him explain the reasoning behind treating for the entire tank volume, when refilling directly from the tap.

Below is a portion of our discussion.

I was wondering if you could explain the reasoning behind the instructions by Seachem for treating the entire tank volume (when using Prime/Safe), if one is treating the new water while refilling the tank. "May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. "
Personally I typically add the conditioner (Prime/Safe) based only on the water volume being replaced, to a 1 gallon jug, and then slowly add that mix in stages as my tank refills. Is this not adequate?

Greg's response:

"some people prefer to just add the new untreated water directly to the tank... if they do that then we recommend the amount of Prime they add be based on the total gallonage of the aquarium rather than just what they added. The "extra" amount speeds up the rate of removal."

I then asked: Is the reaction time based on pH, or any other factors?

I was curious about pH being a factor as the makers of ClorAm-X state:

"At low pH's this reaction proceeds slower than at pH's above 7, but in practical terms the reaction proceeds quickly enough to provide complete ammonia removal in an hour or less."



Greg's response:

It would be influced by pH although I'm not sure if the differences we see in an aquarium would contribute significantly to the time scale at a level where it would be noticed. But the reaction is one that produces H+ so higher pH would tend to favor the reaction although I'm not sure if kinetically it would have a noticeable effect.


But, at the end of the day, if what you are doing works and does not cause any problems then it is ok. Our recommendations are meant to cover a broad range of users and we tend to prefer to err on the side of being overly cautious.

Greg Morin
--

Gregory Morin, Ph.D. ~~~~~~~Chairman/CEO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[kaceyo]

BTW, Here's another reason why I decide on Safe instead of Cloram-x

"ClorAm-X should not be added to water containing active therapeutic dosages of dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine or malachite green. ClorAm-X will interfere with their performance. ClorAm-X in combination with these products will not result in toxic chemical by-products. "


This is true of all dechlorinating water conditioners. ChlorAm-X is just one of the few that puts it on the label.

Kacey

[Jhhnn]

Meh. I'm not terribly impressed with the good doctor's answers, RD.

First they warn us not to overdose, then instruct us to do so, so as to "speed up the reaction". Maybe adding conditioner to the tank before adding tap water would speed things up, too... not to mention that temperature and agitation serve the purpose well, iirc...

Seems like they're trying to have it both ways, cover themselves from either direction while selling more product, too...

Their product must be even less toxic to aquarium life than they claim, because following the directions can easily lead to huge overdose... particularly if the aquarist doesn't know the actual level of sterilizing agents in their water...

The whole discussion turns into a really, really good argument for knowing the level of sterilizing agents, also for pretreating and aging tap water vs filling from the tap. After 24 hrs in my well aerated aging barrels, it's obviously had enough time to do its job and for any excess to have dissipated, as well. Providing it really is gone after 24 hrs...

I'll keep using it, at least until my current supply runs out. The fact that my fish aren't dead from using the stuff is encouraging, but the marketing flimflam makes me wonder why they're not...

Just lucky, I guess... sometimes I think that's the story of my life....

[diamond_discus]

Checked all over the internet but no one carry the 4KG bucket Seachem Safe anymore. So, I ordered the last two 1G bottles from Eddie's source ... still much cheaper then the liquid Prime.

Hey Eddie, you said you do 100% WC with tap water without aging .. Is the weather this warm in Japan ? even during the winter time ? I live in Los Angeles. The tap water temperature is in the low 60 now ... I have to heat the water 24 hrs in the storage barrel before I can do WC ..

[Eddie]

Checked all over the internet but no one carry the 4KG bucket Seachem Safe anymore. So, I ordered the last two 1G bottles from Eddie's source ... still much cheaper then the liquid Prime.

Hey Eddie, you said you do 100% WC with tap water without aging .. Is the weather this warm in Japan ? even during the winter time ? I live in Los Angeles. The tap water temperature is in the low 60 now ... I have to heat the water 24 hrs in the storage barrel before I can do WC ..

Oh yeah, you did yourself a favor, trust me. More money for discus and other products affiliated with them.

Temp here isnt too bad, a little cooler than normal due to some heavy rains. I run my tap to about 86F and fill. Filling my last 55 now, every day without failure. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[diamond_discus]

Oh yeah, you did yourself a favor, trust me. More money for discus and other products affiliated with them.

Temp here isnt too bad, a little cooler than normal due to some heavy rains. I run my tap to about 86F and fill. Filling my last 55 now, every day without failure. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

Do you mean you mix hot/cold tap water to 86F and fill ?

[Eddie]

Do you mean you mix hot/cold tap water to 86F and fill ?

Yes, I actually have one handle on the kitchen sink, lift straight up the middle....keeps it perfect at 86F.

Eddie

[RD.]

I hear what you're saying Jhhnn, but in all fairness to Seachem the reality is that they really are targeting a VERY broad range of users, both freshwater, and marine. They clearly supply the dosing levels in mg/l for chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia, but obviously the end user needs to know what their own local water supply requires for proper dechlorination.


The whole discussion turns into a really, really good argument for knowing the level of sterilizing agents, also for pretreating and aging tap water vs filling from the tap.

I've been suggesting the former to hobbyists for years, yet that advice usually falls on deaf ears. As far as pre-treating tap water, this can easily be worked around, if one is totally aware of what they are dealing with. It only becomes a problem for those that are taking wild guesses about their water, and their system. If you have a good handle on the situation, even when filling directly from the tap, and even with chloramine treated tap water, the resulting ammonia spike from a massive water change will probably be less than what you would typically find after a heavy feeding, especially with things such as beefheart. Running some tests for free ammonia before, during, and after should point out any potential problems, before they actually become a problem.


I don't believe that their directions can easily lead to huge overdose, most of these reducing agents can be used at several times the recommended dosage without issue. Having said that, at extreme levels it can most definitely become toxic, at least for some species.
I've seen the results of that first hand, but again, this was at extreme levels caused in one case by a mechanical malfunction on a dosing unit, and on another by a hobbyist who dropped a 500 ml Prime container in his 75 gallon tank, and losing half the contents in the tank before fishing the container out.

It's much easier (and safer) for Seachem to suggest treating the entire tank volume when filling directly from the tap, than second guessing how much chlorine/chloramine/free ammonia each & every aquatic organism kept in captivity can safely be exposed to.
That seems logical to me.

What might be considered safe for an adult oscar, might not be overly safe for a 2 day old discus, or an ultra sensitive marine invertebrate.

Previously you stated;
Even if my provider didn't use chloramines, I'd want the peace of mind provided by a product that protects my fish from surprises.

Isn't that pretty much the same as what Seachem is doing, by suggesting one treat the entire tank volume, when adding water directly from the tap? That advice tends to remove a LOT of potential problems from consumers that aren't totally aware of what their local water conditions are, or the exact manner in which to get the best/safest results.

The very fact that Prime has been one of the most highly regarded water conditioners on the market for many years leads me to believe that they must be doing something right.
Is there marketing involved, of course, but this is a company that went from Greg's dads garage, to a multi-million dollar corporation. I think that one has to expect at least some maketing to take place within a corporation as large as Seachem.

I will say this, it's not often in today's world that a CEO will even bother fielding questions from consumers, let alone responding within an hour or less, which in my case Greg Morin has always done. I will definitely give him props for that, and I will continue to use Seachem products with the utmost confidence.

[scottishbloke]

Well, I'm glad I bought my 4kg SAFE bucket on Sunday before it all sold out...should have enough to last me the next 10 years or so...:)

Eddie- thanks for the advice on humidity etc regarding storage of my conditioner. I plan to keep my SAFE safe: some in a smaller jar for convenient use during w/c's, and the bulk of it "in a cool dry place" as they always say on bags of Frito-Lays, LOL. BTW, I also have one of those handy single-arm cold/hot water mixing fixtures on my sink...and the top part of the faucet "shower head" like attachment conveniently unscrews off, and my w/c tubing screws on :D:D


Colin

[RD.]

Something I thought I should expand on with regards to those with chloramine treated tap water, and this may help further explain why in some cases it may be a very good idea to treat for the entire tank volume, when filling directly from the tap.

When chloramine tap water is treated with products such as Prime, Safe, or ClorAm-X, the chlorine/ammonia bond is broken, resulting in a certain amount of free ammonia (NH3) that needs to be bound or reduced into a safe non toxic form. The toxicity of free ammonia is highly dependent on both temperature, and pH, so this can vary GREATLY from one hobbyists tank to another.

A good read on the toxicity of ammonia can be found in the following article posted on the krib.

http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html




So while a 4kg container of SAFE may treat 400,000 gallons of tap water for some people, for others it may only treat 200,000 gallons of water. For those that are unsure as to what the NH3 levels are after performing a water change, Seachem sells a very accurate test kit.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.html



HTH