Bad news...

[Yassmeena]

Some of you have been following my thread "My little guys are dying off...". Well now almost all my discus are dead too.

Due to random deaths of my scavenger bottom feeders I started to prepare my show tank for treatment by removing all the substrate (sand). I transferred all of my dither fish to a QT tank, exept 4 rummy nose tetras which I could not catch.

Within 2 hours after removing the subtrate and doing 2 85% WCs my discus started dying one by one... They started showing signs of distress by swimming with accentuated movements of their bodies, and then they started swimming frantically around the tank. Next they darted and went suddenly limp floating around with the filter current like a leaf in the wind before laying dead along the surface of the water.

There is now only one survivor discus and the 4 RN tetras are totally fine!

I dosed prime at each WC, and everything about the WCs was as usual. I am unable to determine what caused them to die, while mysteriously having no effect on the RN tetras.

I feel very guilty and somehow responsible, even though I can't figure out what I did wrong. It's a lot to digest. I am not sure I am going to get discus again.

I had to share this with you guys.

Yasmin

[Darrell Ward]

I'm really sorry. This is every Discus keeper's worst nightmare. I don't know what happened to your fish, but don't give up. Life is fragile, and disasters can happen to anyone.

[Eddie]

Yas, I am extremely sorry to read this. Did you remove all the sand with fish in tank? There may have been dead pockets in the sand that caused poisoning of the fish. I am so sorry to read this, it is really strange/unfortunate.

Dont give up on discus, its not your fault, you didnt know your fish would react this way. If you need a break, then take a break but you had done an awesome job with your fish. They were some of the most beautiful albino ever.

Dont be too hard on yourself, you have alot of support on here.

Take care,
Eddie

[yim11]

Sorry for your loss, I like to think of a situation like this as a opportunity to get new or different fish, those fish you have been wanting for a while but didn't have tank space for. After enjoying the fish you did have, now you have a opportunity to enjoy other fish.

HTHs,
-jim

[Darren's Discus]

Yasmin,
keep your chin up ! sorry for your loses.



cheers

[lpiasente]

Oh Yasmine I am so sorry for you.

[smiley]

Was following up on your other thread..Know it is very difficult to lose them but guess everyone goes through times like these...

Maybe you could just have a few reruns of a good tank disinfection and change some of your aquarium items like (fishing net/filter sponges/substrates) as these may have those residual posion which disturbed the equilibrium..

Hoping to see your tank in full flow this year..best of luck

[hedut]

Oh Sorry for your Yass

[TankWatcher]

So sorry for your loss Yass. Take a break if you need to, but I hope this doesn't turn you away from discus for too long.

I had my own loss earlier this year (15 discus) so I really can empathise with you on this. I know how this gets you down & sucks out all the fun from the hobby ..... but eventually things will start to turn around.

Was your sand bed very deep? I only keep my sand thin. I've read that with deep sand beds, it can compact & create the dead spots that Eddie mentioned. To stop that happening, you either have the sand bed only thin or at each wc, stir the sand around with a knitting need or chop stick. That way, the dead spots don't get a chance to happen.

Also, how did you remove the sand? Sucking it out with a wide diameter hose (such as the one on your washing machine) is the cleanest way to remove it. You don't get any rising dust that way, whereas scooping it out can cause more mess in the water column.

Just tossing some thoughts around as to what "might" have happened.

Take care & don't feel guilty. You always gave your discus your very best.

[Tito]

Yasmin,

I totally understand when you say - you don't know if you'll keep the again.

Something many people overlook is that there are some of us (like myself) that money does not come easy for us. I don't know if that is your situation - you may have another reason. But for me - that is the reason. When I killed 20+ Tropheus Duboisi out of 40 - I lost a lot of money. Money never came easy for my poor family growing up and I have never forgotten being on welfare growing up. I'm glad things have changed since then but my attitude regarding money and how I spend it remains the same. Discus are expensive and it's serious business flushing down hundreds of dollars.

That being said - I have a feeling there may have been a great deal of anaerobic bacteria in your sand and that killed the fish. If you've ever changed out sand that has been sitting in a tank for over a year and you get a pinch of the odor you could understand why it may be lethal. It gets me dissy and I'm much bigger than a Discus.

Sorry to hear the bad news.

By the way - your scavengers when dying as well. Everything is pointing to the sand.

I know it's too late - but a nice little secret many seasoned fish keepers that deal with sand all the time is to introduce MTS Malaysian Trumpet Snails in the sand. They move the sand around underneath and prevent lethal doses of bad bacteria from creating what is known as "dead pockets". Your whole sand bed could be a dead pocket. I once read with the right amount this bacteria can overcome a human as well. But not to alarm anyone - the marine biologist also stated that the home aquarium would not be able to create such a scenario.

[scottthomas]

Yasmin,

Sorry for the loss of your beautiful discus. You had a great collection. It is hard to lose them all that way but they gave you a lot of enjoyment. I understand how you feel. I lost 18 discus several years ago and I waited a long time before I got more. But, in the end I decided it is worth the risk. It happens to almost everyone at some time. Keep your spirits up.

[brewmaster15]

Yasmin,
I am really sorry to hear what you are going thru.:( Chin up though...set backs happen to even the most seasoned hobbyists... In the long run what you do when you face one, will determine whether Discus will continue to bring you joy.

As a side note.. though anerobic pockets are possible IF the sand is very deep....I wonder if it had more to do with shock...pH, gases and alkality.


Within 2 hours after removing the subtrate and doing 2 85% WCs my discus started dying one by one... They started showing signs of distress by swimming with accentuated movements of their bodies, and then they started swimming frantically around the tank. Next they darted and went suddenly limp floating around with the filter current like a leaf in the wind before laying dead along the surface of the water.

Regardless of the cause here I am really sorry for you.:(:(:(:(

-al

[Disgirl]

Yas, I also am so sorry to hear of this loss. Take a break for awhile, clean up the tank and supplies, and start over. Once a discus keeper, almost always a discus keeper! I am sure many SD folks will offer help with a new collection! Hang in there!
Barb

[seanyuki]

So sorry for the loss.....must be painful and try to figure it out slowly what actually happened.

[pcsb23]

Yasmin, sorry to hear this. It is very odd. My sympathies.

[Wahter]

That is sad news. Yasmin - did you stir up your sand regularly? It looked about 3" deep in some of the photos.

Don't give up on discus!


Walter

[Eddie]

Yas, I also am so sorry to hear of this loss. Take a break for awhile, clean up the tank and supplies, and start over. Once a discus keeper, almost always a discus keeper! I am sure many SD folks will offer help with a new collection! Hang in there!
Barb

Yup, I'd definitely give some fry to Yas if I could!

;)

[David Rose]

I had been following your other thread with scavenger losses, but this is just too awful. I'm so sorry that this has happened Yasmin!

Please don't give up though!

Take care,
David

[Tito]

That is sad news. Yasmin - did you stir up your sand regularly? It looked about 3" deep in some of the photos.

Don't give up on discus!


Walter

Yasmin,

If you ever decide to do it again - it''s ok to do sand but top out at 1". You will find this recomendation from the most reputable sources. A deep sand bed substrate is not good for freshwater. You can get away with it in salt because of the critters living in the sand but our freshwater tanks beneath the substrate are pretty sterile allowing mostly for bacteria to thrive in it.

I personally have my sand at about .75" to .5" in my Discus tank.

Take care.

[TankWatcher]

I 2nd what Tito says. Sand is a great substrate for a freshwater tank. But keep it thin - if not, stir it up at each wc and/or include trumpet snails.

[Scribbles]

I'm so sorry to hear about your losses Yasmin. I've read and heard about the dangers of toxic gasses building up in deep sand beds in freshwater tanks due to the anaerobic bacteria. I don't know if this was the cause of your problems or not. Keep your chin up and when you feel up to it start again.

Chris

[Yassmeena]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your kind words. When my fish died not too many of my friends or family could relate, so your support sincerely means a lot to me.

I strongly suspect that it was dead pockets in my sand that caused the problem. Ironically - I was this close to finalizing a purchase of malaysian trumpet snails that same week, but shipping issues arose at the last minute.

I still don't understand how my rummy nose tetras survived. I think I'll always wonder about that.

Tito was right that the financial hit made it that much harder and discouraging. As you can imagine a tank full of albinos cost a pretty penny! But there was a strong emotional investment as well.

After all this, I decided not to give up on the hobby - :). My tank is still running, with one discus and four RN tetras. I can't imagine it not being there.

Thanks again - you guys are great!

Yasmin

[ashaysathe]

After all this, I decided not to give up on the hobby - :).
Thanks again - you guys are great!

Yasmin

Excellent Yassmin .. awesome.. Finance is always a constraint and thats what it comes down to. Give yourself time, get over the hump all of bad is gone, its all good and going upwards from now on.
Cool deal..

[Harriett]

Yasmin, I am so sorry to hear what happened--it is emotionally devastating when you have a complete wipe out happen. Awful. I am in Chicago and have a zillion trumpets in my sand substrate in the big tank--would be glad to get some sent off to you if you are having a problem getting some shipped.
The bulk of my planting runs down the middle [lengthwise] of my 6' tank currently, so the sand is a good 3"+ there and goes down to maybe 1.5" towards the front and back of the tank---I plant in a fashion that allows getting a python in between groupings as well as open areas. On a weekly basis I stir up the sand pretty much through the depth of the bed all over the tank out of concern for the anaerobic sour pocket potential--works well in my tank. I agree that it is likely you stirred up some sour business--it can happen to anyone.
Take a break, and when you feel more composed, begin again. Meanwhile, your gorgeous planted tank will be the lure to get you going when you are ready.
Again, so sorry. I have loved all the photos of your tank and your fish were just beautiful.
Best regards,
Harriett

[Cooldadddyfunk286]

sorry to hear Yasmin, but Im glad that I read alittle further and u decided NOT to give up on Discus. that is great news, I would have hated to see that happen. you had some gorgeous albinos, but with alittle time and preparation...you will have an even NICER show tank, I promise you. think of it as a new beginning!!

sorry again Yas, I feel for you. :(

take care my friend.

[TankWatcher]

Thanks for your kind words. When my fish died not too many of my friends or family could relate, so your support sincerely means a lot to me ....... After all this, I decided not to give up on the hobby - :)Yes, non fish keeping friends don't get how you can cry over the death of a fish .... but we here at SD, we do get it. Glad you are staying in the hobby.

Take Care

[Sharkbait]

So...stirring up anaerobic bacteria is good?....

I did some research after looking at this thread because I had never heard of this before. After looking at this article...they say stirring it up messes with the nitrifying cycle..

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/silent_killer.htm

Perhaps I'm just confused with some of the wording.

I'd love to have trumpet snails in my tank but my loaches would eat them all up. So I guess stirring is the only solution?

[keef]

Yasmin,
I'm really sorry to hear of your losses, I've also been there before as have prolly most contributors on SD at some point during their Discus hobby. If I lived closer I'd gladly donate you some of my Discus. Hang in there...

With regad to the Tetras; different species of fish have wildly differing tolerences for water quality & oxygen demand etc. . It would most likely be that the Tetras were simply able to withstand the dead pockets released from the substrate longer than your Discus.

Good luck for the future,
Keith

[pcsb23]

Glad your hanging around Yasmin :) I really like how you put a tank together, they are beautiful.


So...stirring up anaerobic bacteria is good?....no, not good, but stirring the sand or substrate to prevent anaerobic pockets is good :)

[fishorama]

I'm so sorry for your losses! Did you notice dark areas in the sand or bubbles coming up? I use pool filter sand, mostly shallow but 1 tank has ~3 inches. I can python vac but not all the way down & not all areas. Now I'm worried

I'm glad you're not giving up, the rewards of this hobby/obsession far outweigh the occasional heartbreaking disaster.

[dan1]

Yasmin,

I am so sorry to hear the lost. Believe me, I know how you feel. I too had lost several of my favorites in the past. I am sure most discus hobbyist had at some point encounter lost. We are glad that you hang in there.

[TankWatcher]

I'm so sorry for your losses! Did you notice dark areas in the sand or bubbles coming up? I use pool filter sand, mostly shallow but 1 tank has ~3 inches. I can python vac but not all the way down & not all areas. Now I'm worriedYou can use a chopstick or knitting needle & stir the sand up with that. That should do it.

[Tropheus]

Sorry to hear about the tragedy. I was admiring your tank in your recent post about changing the decorations. They were gorgeous and such great auascaping. Just having that eye for beauty is something to behold in and of itself.

Maybe you can consider it a great lesson learned. I wish I had some fry I could just give you. My fish are lbreeding, but I don't think you would want a bunch of pigeon x brilliants. When I do finally get some kids, I am going to do a free discus give away at a Starbucks like I have heard others do. I would love for people to experience these fish even though they could never afford them in the first place. The inspiration to pass on to others is a good thing.

[Tito]

I'm so sorry for your losses! Did you notice dark areas in the sand or bubbles coming up? I use pool filter sand, mostly shallow but 1 tank has ~3 inches. I can python vac but not all the way down & not all areas. Now I'm worried

I'm glad you're not giving up, the rewards of this hobby/obsession far outweigh the occasional heartbreaking disaster.

No need to worry. Simply never scoop up your sand or disturb it by digging a lot of it up. Before you do that - take out your Discus. If you ever empty out your tank and start removing the sand - yuo could get DIZZY! Depends on your intolerance.

[fishorama]

No discus in the 3+ inch sand tank, but still a possible issue. Just BB in the discus juvie tank thank goodness. Still some nice fish, panda garra & histrionica loaches. I semi-deep vac & hope...I prefer to vac than not, to each their own...

[back_to_basics89]

Yasmin, sorry to hear about your loss. And I really liked your fish, too. But it's not your fault. Even some of the most experienced hobbyist goes through this one time or another. Try to figure out what happened and start again. Now you can really bug Kenny in getting that special fish that you've always wanted. :)