Largest US Discus Breeders

[GlennR]

It seems that the major Discus breeders are in SE Asia and some (one?) in Germany.

I know there are smaller scale breeders in the US, but I'm not aware of any large scale "farms" here. Are there any in the states? If not, I wonder why?

The US' main export is agriculture, and Aquatic Eco is proof that aquaculture must be a substancial industry here. Seems surprising that nobody has tried Discus farming here. If I was in the Trout, Catfish, or Talpia business I'd have to give Discus a shot.

:bandana:

[brewmaster15]

Cost is a big factor here in the USA...water and utilities make it very hard for any breeders to go big competively with imported discus... though a few hobbyists have some sizeable hatcheries.

hth,
al

[yim11]

According to his website, Peter Thode is the largest in NA - http://www.discushatchery.com/

Never been so not sure...

[roclement]

...well I would say Gwynbrook Farms from Peter Thode did it for a while and is still in business...how good or bad is a different matter but they are still active no?

Rod

[rickztahone]

According to his website, Peter Thode is the largest in NA - http://www.discushatchery.com/

Never been so not sure...

i really like their discus food section, they seem willing to share info.

[GlennR]

Most fish farms would be using pure clean & cheap well water, so water cost shouldn't be a major cost here. Utilities would be costly in the northern states, but shouldn't be in the southern states. Aeration & pumping cost would be small compared to heating.

I'd think labor cost would be the main difference here, compared to SE Asia but not to Germany.

How many breeders are in Germany? Do you have a website link to them that I could check out?

It's just hard to understand that a "cost" difference would keep a US breeder from going large scale considering the retail prices of Discus. I'm not planning to become a fish farmer, just curious.

[yim11]

How many breeders are in Germany? Do you have a website link to them that I could check out?

Largest in Germany (and Europe, again - according to website) is Stendker:

http://www.diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/

[diskus24.de]

Hello together,

stendker is definately large and commercial, but in my opinion not the best in terms of quality. I know that stendker facilities are above 25.000 gallons but i do not know how much fish they are 'producing'.

Another large breeder is W & M here in germany, facility is approx. 25.000 gallons.

German (hobby) breeders, especially the smaller ones have established lines of discus that are completely free of any parasites, e.g. worms, flagellates, and so on.
Inventors of that Method are Gerhard Rahn (Author of "Diskus") and Dr. Menauer.

I am in touch with quite a few parasite free breeders. The biggest one is Alexander Piwowarski with more than 5.000 gallons. Markus Jochheim, Michael Iffert, Oswald Hanke, Klaus Schmitz (Author of 'Perfect Diskus') to name just a few are running smaller facilities, but they have very nice Discus - and in TOP Condition.

As already said, in Germany as well as in the US i guess that labour cost and Energy saving is key. Further, having parasite free stock is paramount here. No medication ever, the fish are growing out far much faster and with better yield then conventionally.

Due to this, we have 3 major trends here:

1. Run facilities fully automated to save labour cost
2. Save Energy where ever possible
3. Build and maintain parasite free stocks

For a company like stendker or W & M is a daunting task to become parasite free. As far as i know they tried, but failed.

My tanks are parasite free too, and i can tell that it's worth to achieve.

I am new to this forum so i can't post links without approval. As soon as i can i will post some links to a.m. German breeders.

Question: Have you ever heard about the Methode of parasite free discus before?

Regards, Rudolf

[Discus-Hans]

According to his website, Peter Thode is the largest in NA - http://www.discushatchery.com/

Never been so not sure...

If I put on my website that I'm closed around Christmas because during those days I'm father Christmas (HO, HO, HO, etc) would you believe me too???? :p :p :D

What I hate most in this business is that only a few people call a spade a spade and...........uhhhhh a Discus BREEDER a Discus breeder.

As far as I know none of these breeders has breeding facilities at the airport but.........I know a lot of "breeders' who get their "own bred" Discus from the airport :D :mad: :D

Hans

[moik]

You got my attention,,please eloaborate on what you wrote...curiosly wanting to know the details..
Hello together,

stendker is definately large and commercial, but in my opinion not the best in terms of quality. I know that stendker facilities are above 25.000 gallons but i do not know how much fish they are 'producing'.

Another large breeder is W & M here in germany, facility is approx. 25.000 gallons.

German (hobby) breeders, especially the smaller ones have established lines of discus that are completely free of any parasites, e.g. worms, flagellates, and so on.
Inventors of that Method are Gerhard Rahn (Author of "Diskus") and Dr. Menauer.

I am in touch with quite a few parasite free breeders. The biggest one is Alexander Piwowarski with more than 5.000 gallons. Markus Jochheim, Michael Iffert, Oswald Hanke, Klaus Schmitz (Author of 'Perfect Diskus') to name just a few are running smaller facilities, but they have very nice Discus - and in TOP Condition.

As already said, in Germany as well as in the US i guess that labour cost and Energy saving is key. Further, having parasite free stock is paramount here. No medication ever, the fish are growing out far much faster and with better yield then conventionally.

Due to this, we have 3 major trends here:

1. Run facilities fully automated to save labour cost
2. Save Energy where ever possible
3. Build and maintain parasite free stocks

For a company like stendker or W & M is a daunting task to become parasite free. As far as i know they tried, but failed.

My tanks are parasite free too, and i can tell that it's worth to achieve.

I am new to this forum so i can't post links without approval. As soon as i can i will post some links to a.m. German breeders.

Question: Have you ever heard about the Methode of parasite free discus before?

Regards, Rudolf

[vss]

Question: Have you ever heard about the Methode of parasite free discus before?

Regards, Rudolf

Used to hear some brief introduction about it, like treating the fish using metro and formalin at very young age and using hot water bath to provide parasite-free environment. also heard both compliments and doubts. Still quite confused about the details and how it works on discus compared with conventional discus raising method. Maybe you can share with us some more knowledge about it? :)

-Xiaofei

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

Used to hear some brief introduction about it, like treating the fish using metro and formalin at very young age and using hot water bath to provide parasite-free environment. also heard both compliments and doubts. Still quite confused about the details and how it works on discus compared with conventional discus raising method. Maybe you can share with us some more knowledge about it? :)

-Xiaofei

What's the use of this method. you have to keep these fish always in a seperate tank, combining them in a community tank or with other Discus will always give parasites the opportunity to infect the fish.

Not to mention the fact they're not used to parasites so when infected they will have no resistance.

[gills]

Peter does have a big place and it was always fun speaking with him about discus. I got fish from him at his place several times back in the late 80's and into the 90's. He bred all the top German strains and grew them big. I don't know how much he does know.

[Tropheus]

Hey I have been to Gwynnbrook farms and Discus Hans for that matter. I buy from Hans. His quality is fantastic straight from Stendker and you get what you pay for. This breeding thing is confusing to me. I would much rather buy from a distributor than a Breeder. I feel like a distributor like Hans rests his reputation on the quality of the fish and I feel like Hans through Stendker is more discriminating on what he puts his name on than a "Breeder". The fellow at Gwynnbrook (Not sure if it was Peter who gave me the tour a few years ago--older gentleman) was extremely nice. I recall a lot of breeding pairs and cement held basins. It was difficult for me to walk through as opposed to Hans where everything is on display in such a great and easy way to choose which was right for me.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

It seems that the major Discus breeders are in SE Asia and some (one?) in Germany.

I know there are smaller scale breeders in the US, but I'm not aware of any large scale "farms" here. Are there any in the states? If not, I wonder why?

The US' main export is agriculture, and Aquatic Eco is proof that aquaculture must be a substancial industry here. Seems surprising that nobody has tried Discus farming here. If I was in the Trout, Catfish, or Talpia business I'd have to give Discus a shot.

:bandana:

You are quite right...aquaculture is a huge industry world wide. The US also has a substantial claim in part of the industry as well. Most of it is in food fish type facilities. Ornamental farms here in the US represent a very small numerical percentage of the overall total ornamental fish sold in the US. As stated by others before me, costs of doing business is what makes it hard for US farmers to breed and sell discus at a competitive cost. Why spend $8-$10 on a 2.5" discus bred in the US when they can buy the same fish from Thailand for less than half the cost (landed).

Unfortunetly the aquaculture industry is driven by numbers ($$$). FL farmers have to sell their stock at a competitive rate when going up against the overseas imports. Because of this their profit margins are very slim. Most farmers are lucky to still be in business during the current economical times. Most farmers are also multi-generational. A friend of mine is a 3rd generation fish farmer near Tampa. They breed all the typical bread and butter type stock. Everything they do is old school in the sense of the words "if aint broke, dont fix it" mentality. I asked him one day why they dont switch to something that would bring in a bit more money (like discus). His basic explanation was fairly simple...."they're expensive for a reason". They also dont breed them because they think of how discus used to be 20-30 years ago. Hard to keep, let alone breed. Again, if it aint broke dont fix it.

When you put discus into consideration to other fish US farmers breed, you have to look at the scale of economy/efficiency. Some fish like the Clown Loach spawn 15,000+ eggs at a time. Compare that to discus (100-150 on average). Now also consider how those same fish are spawned....discus are paired off and they breed whenever they feel in the mood (little control over production numbers). Clown loaches and other "higher end" ornamentals are spawned now a days using hormones (NOT MT!!). This gives the farmers complete control as to when they need to breed the fish in order to have enough fish to supply the US during peak season. This means they can produce as many fish necessary at any given time to remain competitive with oversea imports. To do this with discus would require immense production inefficiences that would ultimately lead to virtual self distruction.

Dont forget that discus are "touchy" fish in their requirements for good water quality/husbandry practices. In order to properly setup a large enough hatchery to breed them at the scale where they are cheap enough for US wholesalers to buy, you would need to invest a small fortune. 99.9% of FL farmers simply dont have the capital to do that on any level. Most dedicated discus hobbyists dont have the knowledge base to setup such a facility either. Dont forget high electricity and labor costs.

Would it be possible? With the right knowledge base and connections it would. Would it be easy? No way. No single entity/farm could do it (this is evident by the way Asian farms are operated). It would a considerable investment to start up such a hatchery and operate long term. But then having such a large hatchery, producing so many discus every year....what would that do to the given market price of discus??? :confused:

Things to think about I guess...

-Ryan

[diskus24.de]

What's the use of this method. you have to keep these fish always in a seperate tank, combining them in a community tank or with other Discus will always give parasites the opportunity to infect the fish.

Not to mention the fact they're not used to parasites so when infected they will have no resistance.

Discus (and not only them) do not build any resistance against parasites, they get used to it and can handle parasites - as adults. But have you ever seen baby discus dying one by one because of gillworms transfered from their parents? Check out forums around the world. Tapeworms and others not to mention are a major diseases and present in all forums. Because of the deseases many beginners jump off this hobby and even experienced ones are more and more desperate. Time for a change!?

In fact, over the years a lot of parasites have build resistance againts various medications. It is becomming harder and harder to fight them. What's the use of this?

I look at parasite free from two perspectives, the breeders and holders perspective. For breeders having healthy discus is nothing but good. Yields are good, Fish are healthy and cost of medication is zero. A Hobby Breeder can muster the discipline necessaray to hold a facility clean. For commerial breeders it's harder when having other people working for you.

For holders there are two ways of handling:
1. Buy nearly grown up's and set them into a community tank. They'll get infected - maybe, if other discus are already present you should anyway have a quarantine - that's it. Deal with deseases, if you can.

2. Run a parasite free Tank. In Germany meanwhile a lot of other fish are parasite free to have, including a lot of L-Series. Plants from Damer & Mensch are meristem aquaculture, artifically raised. They have never seen any parasites as well.

With parasite free discus the choice is yours. I don't want to go into a discussion over 'parasite free fishes are more sensitive' because the opposite is right: They are far much stronger then others at same age, because they never had to deal with parasites. This is proven experience.

Seeing is believing. I have been to Piwo,s parasite free hobby facility. At that point in time he had approx. 2.000 Discus at all ages - not 1 fish staggering or dying. It's great fun for a hobbyist like me to see thousands of agile and healthy discus swimming.

And for the fun of it i stay attached to my hobby.

Regards, Rudolf

[moik]

WHAT TREATMENTS AND WHAT KIND OF MEDICATIONS DO THEY USE TO ACHEIVE PARASITE FREE DISCUS??? vERY CURIOUS TO KNOW..
Discus (and not only them) do not build any resistance against parasites, they get used to it and can handle parasites - as adults. But have you ever seen baby discus dying one by one because of gillworms transfered from their parents? Check out forums around the world. Tapeworms and others not to mention are a major diseases and present in all forums. Because of the deseases many beginners jump off this hobby and even experienced ones are more and more desperate. Time for a change!?

In fact, over the years a lot of parasites have build resistance againts various medications. It is becomming harder and harder to fight them. What's the use of this?

I look at parasite free from two perspectives, the breeders and holders perspective. For breeders having healthy discus is nothing but good. Yields are good, Fish are healthy and cost of medication is zero. A Hobby Breeder can muster the discipline necessaray to hold a facility clean. For commerial breeders it's harder when having other people working for you.

For holders there are two ways of handling:
1. Buy nearly grown up's and set them into a community tank. They'll get infected - maybe, if other discus are already present you should anyway have a quarantine - that's it. Deal with deseases, if you can.

2. Run a parasite free Tank. In Germany meanwhile a lot of other fish are parasite free to have, including a lot of L-Series. Plants from Damer & Mensch are meristem aquaculture, artifically raised. They have never seen any parasites as well.

With parasite free discus the choice is yours. I don't want to go into a discussion over 'parasite free fishes are more sensitive' because the opposite is right: They are far much stronger then others at same age, because they never had to deal with parasites. This is proven experience.

Seeing is believing. I have been to Piwo,s parasite free hobby facility. At that point in time he had approx. 2.000 Discus at all ages - not 1 fish staggering or dying. It's great fun for a hobbyist like me to see thousands of agile and healthy discus swimming.

And for the fun of it i stay attached to my hobby.

Regards, Rudolf

[diskus24.de]

I have a step-by-step instruction that has been published in several german magazines - unfortunately in GERMAN Language only.

But i am in touch with the author and inventor of the method to see if he has a translation. If not i will translate and publish afterwards.

This may take some days - and your patience. I will publish asap in seperate thread.

Thx, Rudolf

[moik]

Would kindly appreciate the information when you can translate it...Very curious to know the medications and how they go about acheiving parasite free stock..Thank you in advance..
I have a step-by-step instruction that has been published in several german magazines - unfortunately in GERMAN Language only.

But i am in touch with the author and inventor of the method to see if he has a translation. If not i will translate and publish afterwards.

This may take some days - and your patience. I will publish asap in seperate thread.

Thx, Rudolf

[GlennR]

Thanks everyone for the great responses so far to this thread.

It is too bad US breeders can't (or don't think they can) compete with imports. Maybe that will eventually change with the success of smaller US breeders. I will be getting my fish from a local breeder when I am ready to set up a tank.

The information about parasite free fish from Germany is interesting too. I am looking forward to learning their methods. It sure sound like a goal worth persuing.

[plecocicho]

Parasite free discus keeping is not uncontroversial issue in Germany and many experienced discus keepers and knowladgable authors, like the compentent and always objective Hoerst Koehler, editor of Diskusbrief have a lot of critical opinions on that issue.
Also one thing, flagellats are not parasites but comensals(comensalism is a type of relationship, in which host has no losses or wins, but the the other species in this relationship gains, in case of discus and flagellats, second nourish on food particles in the discus gut). Only by unproper diet (too much proteins, too many fatts, colagen fibers,..) does the population inside of discus gut explodes and becomes parasitic by shear numbers.

[diskus24.de]

I am reading diskusbrief from Horst Köhler since many years, Mr. Köhler is competent without question. Especially treatment of Discus deseases is one of his favorite subjects, he has written a book on it.
My favorite subject is Filtering and i have written 2 Articles for diskusbrief in 2008 about that.

In Germany we have been through many discussions in several forums and of course there are different oppinions about that issue. The good thing is that reading these post helps a lot to make up your mind.

Regards, Rudolf

[Spardas]

I am reading diskusbrief from Horst Köhler since many years, Mr. Köhler is competent without question. Especially treatment of Discus deseases is one of his favorite subjects, he has written a book on it.
My favorite subject is Filtering and i have written 2 Articles for diskusbrief in 2008 about that.

In Germany we have been through many discussions in several forums and of course there are different oppinions about that issue. The good thing is that reading these post helps a lot to make up your mind.

Regards, Rudolf

If only google translator work as well as it should, :D, we can read these articles as well.

Do you have a link of these discussions in a german forum?

[diskus24.de]

This is one thread for instance:

http://www.diskusportal.de/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=26394&hilit=parasitenfrei

If you use the boardsearch, type in:

"parasitenfrei"
"parafrei"
"parasiten frei machen"

and you will get results.

Further there is a section of it's own for "Parasitenfreie Diskus"

http://www.diskusportal.de/parasitenfreie-diskus-f29.html

Search in http://www.diskusportal.com with a.m. phrases should also yield some results.

Links to Parasite free German Discusbreeders, even if you just want to take a look at their Galeries for Pictures ("Bilder"):

http://www.diskuszucht-piwowarski.de => Trader CANADA: http://www.discushouse.com
http://www.easydiscus.de
http://www.michel-diskus.de
http://www.discusman.de
http://www.perfect-discus.de

Following link leads to Gerhard Rahn, inventor of the method:

http://www.rahndiskus.de

My recomendation is to read the topics "Parasiten", "Erfahrungen" and "FAQ-Liste". Even with the translator working not that perfect i think you'll get the picture.

Regards, Rudolf

[diskus24.de]

To keep you informed:

Yesterday i posted a list of links do Parasite free Discussions, Portals and Breeders in Germany here, but i am still waiting for approval ...

Rudolf

[akumastew]

To keep you informed:

Yesterday i posted a list of links do Parasite free Discussions, Portals and Breeders in Germany here, but i am still waiting for approval ...

Rudolf

We are all looking forward to reading the discussion, once it has been approved.

[kaceyo]

That should be some very interesting reading.

Kacey

[akumastew]

Think...

if we all apply this methodolgy and it works...

Eddie's post counts per day will go down 400%, as we wont need a disease section anymore. :)

[diskus24.de]

the content of the desease section may change, but don't bother, it will not dissapear or drop significantly ... :)

[DANZIGER - DISCUS]

Hello
It is, really interesting thread!
I do not know what is the number of commercial Discus breeding farms in the U.S.A but I can tell that Discus breeding in commercial quantities is not an easy task and there is a need for big investments with a high risk and there are a lot more profitable and secure spices of tropical fish to breed.
In order to go commercial with Discus farming there is 2 ways (as I see it) -
1. Start small as hobby breeder and get larger through the years.
2. Be a hobby breeder get crazy and establish a commercial Discus farm...
You might get lucky...
I met Mr. Thode (Peter) at Duisburg show 2008 and he is a very nice man with a lot of knowledge who breeds (as I know) very nice Discus and owns a big Discus farm.
To the second issue of this thread I can tell as a parasite free commercial farmer that the way to achieve it is very simple but hard to do...
My commercial farm runs from the middle of 2006 and I never used any medication or chemicals in this facility.
All the Discus raised in the parasite free farm were raised artificially and they had no contact part to the spawning to any Discus, most of the parasites do not survive 60 hours with out a host and also when the larva hatches it still cannot host parasites since the inner organs are not yet functioning.
At the same way I created a Parasite clean brood stock which is active since 2008 and it seems to work...
From the tests I have made it seems that those parasite free Discus are not weaker than any other Discus the advantage for the hobbyist is when he keep community tank of parasite free tropical fish he lower the chances that he will get his fish infected with parasites.
I will just say that what I wrote here is based on my opinion and experience and it is not an academic research (but the testing for parasites were taken by vets and biologists).
I hope it was not too long and boring and that I have answered some questions.
Happy New Year,
Shahar.

[mmorris]

All the Discus raised in the parasite free farm were raised artificially...

I have some serious concerns with artificial rearing that have been raised elsewhere. Artificial rearing makes it possible to breed out discus' ability to care for their young. In the wild the fry from parents without the genetic ability to care for their young would never survive. Artificial rearing ensures that they do, and they can pass on that gene to future generations. Parasite free, but at what cost?

[wgtaylor]

Parasite free discus can only be achieved through artificial rearing of fry and maintained through feeding of parasite free foods.
This is a practice that has been known and followed by only a few for a few decades and results in more consistent and larger broods than parent breeding.
It has been proven many times that parent rearing of fry is not a learned practice of parent discus but life's genetic instinct to propagate.
Artificially reared discus of many generations have maintained that rearing instinct and many of our original strains of discus were developed by artificial rearing.
As far as parasite free discus being weaker is just counter intuitive. Parasites can only make a fish weaker not stronger. It's like the old analogy "Whatever don't kill you will only make you stronger". That just cannot be true, parasites will have some net effect on weakening but a superior fish will be able to cope, tolerate parasites and maintain some level of health.
To maintain a parasite free hatchery requires an almost obsessive compulsive desire and a strong consistent regimentation of perfection that most of us lack.
Shahar, you have some of the most beautiful discus I've seen. I think you are feeding only dry foods and I am astonished at your success that is contrary to feeding high protein and live food that we have been taught is best. Remarkable success you have achieved. :):) If we fail to learn from success than we fail.
Bill

[akumastew]

If removing the babies helps keep a parasite free stock.

After a few generations, wouldn't all your stock be parasite free; and thus you could leave them with the parents from then on?

Or am I missing something?

[zamboniMan]

After a few generations, wouldn't all your stock be parasite free; and thus you could leave them with the parents from then on?

Or am I missing something?

In theory, some have claimed to achieve this. It's all about the food you feed. You could never guarantee parasite free beef heart for instance as cows do host parasites some of which will spread to major organs if not noticed.

[wgtaylor]

If removing the babies helps keep a parasite free stock.

After a few generations, wouldn't all your stock be parasite free; and thus you could leave them with the parents from then on?

Or am I missing something?

That's correct. The first generation will be parasite free and parent breeding them would result in parasite free fry if you introduced no parasites through food or water supply source.
In the past artificial rearing successive generations insured higher volume production and nearly eliminated slow growth and parasitic setbacks.

[mmorris]

Parasite free discus can only be achieved through artificial rearing of fry and maintained through feeding of parasite free foods.
...It has been proven many times that parent rearing of fry is not a learned practice of parent discus but life's genetic instinct to propagate.
Artificially reared discus of many generations have maintained that rearing instinct

I agree with Akumastew - With careful feeding, it should only take one generation to make the stock parasite-free.
Bill, I have to wonder whether some of the problems we hobbyists are experiencing with our breeding pairs now might not be a result of fostering/artificial rearing. It seems that many discus have not "maintained that rearing instinct." If the ability to care for young was a learned response then artificial rearing would knock out that ability in one generation. I'm sure it is genetic, and it is possible to breed that ability out. I've wondered that particularly where albinos are concerned. Breeders using artificial/fostering methods need to think seriously about this.

[William Palumbo]

I feel that keeping Discus in a "plastic bubble", like their human conterparts, just leads to disaster WHEN they are subjected to any for of parasites or germs. I am not saying to keep our Discus infested with parasites or pathogens, but being exposed to them is what builds up their immunity. Is that why wilds are so hardy?...Bill

[kaceyo]

I have to strongly disagree with the idea that parenting skills are learned by discus. The strongest instinct any animal has is survival of the species. In most cases it is even stronger than survival of the self. You can not breed out the instinct for survival of the species.
Also, there are just too many cases of discus that were raised artificially going on to raise there own fry. Look at Jack Wattleys discus, which were the foundation for many of the strains that came after. His fish were almost exclusivly artificially raised. Then there are the asian breeders who supply by far the most discus worldwide. They are almost exclusivly parent raised yet we see the same inclination towards adults that don't spawn or raise fry mentioned above.
I think there is alot more to that problem than the few artificially raised discus being responsible. I don't see how fostering would effect their ability to raise fry at all.

Kacey

[wgtaylor]

I look at this problem like like this, a parasite is a animal that needs a host to survive. It feeds off the host and reproduces but will not kill the host as part of it's defense mechanism to survive.

A “Virus” is classified as “non-living”, it just reproduces and spreads, it has no DNA, it wraps itself in a protein coat to fool the immune system, it drill’s into cells and says “Forget this DNA, here is my RNA, reproduce “ME” not the Host cells" until it kills the host or the host can develop an immunity, it does not need a host to survive.

You can develop immunities to viruses but not parasites. Parasites will weaken the host discus by stealing nutrients until it can no longer fight other symptoms from developing. The stronger the discus the longer it will survive.

Hey Bill, my opinion about wilds is they are hardy to start with because lack of in-breeding and weaker siblings in the spawn have already succumbed through pressures existing in the wild.
I'm one that has changed my point of view about wild discus being riddled with parasites and need prophylactic treatments from the start. I think wild discus are less prone to parasite infections in the wild just for the fact they are in open waters which is being replenished with clean water continuously. Autopsies of discus collected in the wild have shown parasites in some and
no parasites in others with a higher percentage of clean discus.
We have learned better ways to package and ship getting the wilds to their destination faster and we are benefiting by getting really nice healthy wild discus. In the past it took so long and in poor shipping conditions that it almost took a veterinarian to save the discus that made it to their destination. I believe that is where the rumor that wild discus are so unhealthy with parasites and bacteria and they are hard to keep. That rumor keeps being repeated until it becomes an accepted fact. The fact is we can produce more parasites and problems in our tanks with our closed water system and poor husbandry. But with proper care and good food the wilds can do much better in our care than they might do in the wild.

In my opinion there is only one drawback to artificially rearing discus, you get a heck of a lot of fish and then your hobby becomes a job. It has no effect on genetics.
It could produce a higher survival rate of weaker fish and then it's up to you to cull wisely and select only the best to keep for breeding and selling.

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

I feel that keeping Discus in a "plastic bubble", like their human conterparts, just leads to disaster WHEN they are subjected to any for of parasites or germs. I am not saying to keep our Discus infested with parasites or pathogens, but being exposed to them is what builds up their immunity. Is that why wilds are so hardy?...Bill

Keep this in mind...parasite free does not mean disease free. What you speak of in regards to immunity is applicable when discussing bacterial/viral issues. There is no immunity to a parasite. Keeping them parasite free is the ideal thing to do. Parasites are a stressor and if conditions permit can and will grow in numbers to a point where the fish become sick and susceptable to secondary problems. By breeding and maintaining "SPF" (specific pathogen free) stocks, you are ensuring the end consumer a better quality product by having a fish that has not undergone chronic stress like fish that do have significant parasite problems. Minimal stress= healthier fish. Healthier fish are better equipt to handle most bacterial issues thrown their way.

Even then, people say they breed parasite free stock, but how much of a reality is that? Fish can get intestinal parasites from the food we feed. External parasites from a single drop of mistreated water (shipping water, surface water, dirt, humidity, etc). In order to ensure 100% parasite free facility the entire hatchery would have to be treated atleast once a month. Even then very strict bio-security measures would be followed to make sure nothing else comes in from outside. To state that your fish are parasite free is a mighty big statement. Commercial fish farms cannot even guarantee that.....Specific Pathogen Free (SPF) might be a better phrase to use IMO.

-Ryan

[Steve Rybicki]

I have a relatively large angelfish hatchery that is parasite free. I established this quite a few years ago with the following method. All brood stock was put in a quarantine room. It never leaves this room unless I'm getting rid of it. The eggs from the spawns in this room are removed and sterilized to the point where it does not kill them. I originally didn't know if this was adequate, but experience and microscopes have demonstrated that it was. Nothing enters the hatchery except these eggs, including visitors. We have our own procedure for making sure any workers going in (only two allowed), do not bring in anything with them. We raise all our juveniles in this hatchery and also remove our next generation of brood stock by taking it to a quarantined breeding room. As soon as this stock is established in the breeding room, the original stock in the quarantine room is disposed of.

There are some suspected viruses that affect angelfish (lip fibroma is one). This has never appeared outside the quarantine room, so it has worked for viruses and virulent bacteria as well. Nothing can be done about the ever-present opportunistic bacteria found everywhere.

I also have discus in this room and both angelfish and discus parent raise with no trouble. It is purely instinctual and stress related. If conditions and water chemistry are right, they parent raise - almost all of them.

After my experience of the past years, nothing could ever convince me that parasites are good for fish to have when young. My stock grows faster, larger and more colorful in this situation. I have little trouble with customers receiving it and I'm convinced those who eventually have some trouble, would have had it even quicker with already infected stock. Every single fish eats vigorously and I can keep higher densities in tanks if I want - much higher!

In fact, everything does so well in this situation, I'm building another room that will house discus. None of them ever go into a corner and quit eating - a joy to keep discus in this situation, so I'm going to do more discus in the future.

[mmorris]

I have to strongly disagree with the idea that parenting skills are learned by discus. The strongest instinct any animal has is survival of the species. In most cases it is even stronger than survival of the self. You can not breed out the instinct for survival of the species.
Also, there are just too many cases of discus that were raised artificially going on to raise there own fry. Look at Jack Wattleys discus, which were the foundation for many of the strains that came after. His fish were almost exclusivly artificially raised. Then there are the asian breeders who supply by far the most discus worldwide. They are almost exclusivly parent raised yet we see the same inclination towards adults that don't spawn or raise fry mentioned above.
I think there is alot more to that problem than the few artificially raised discus being responsible. I don't see how fostering would effect their ability to raise fry at all.

Kacey

I agree that a discus' parenting skills are not learned. It is genetic, and I think that any information coded in the genes can be bred out of a fish - certainly parental skills! Jack Wattley perfected a method of raising artificially but it appears that only a small proportion of his discus were raised artificially.
From an interview with Jack Wattley: "What is the reason that you raise your fry separate from the parents. Because I found that a couple with fry is one of the things that makes the discus hobby so interesting."

Jack_Wattley: "the only reason I raise the fry (20%) is because those are the pairs that will not raise their own young." http://www.xs4all.nl/~fvdhart/masters2004/chat/jack.htm

If parental skills were a learnt behavior, then artificial rearing would eliminate the skills in, essentially, one generation. Fostering would have no impact. Because the skill is genetic it would take multiple generations for an increasing proportion of discus to have problems parenting. It would not matter whether the fry were raised artificially or reared by another pair. At the end of the day, the offspring of fish without the genetic capacity to rear their young properly would have the opportunity to survive and reproduce. After a discussion along this line elsewhere, I have to wonder why my blue sapphires needed eight tries to get it right. Does it take that long in the wild? Is it the environment we create for them that leaves our fish unwilling to produce eggs or fertilize, or encourages them to eat the eggs and/or fry, or makes them ignore their newly-free-swimming offspring? Can we be absolutely certain that there are no negative consequences to artificial rearing or fostering?

[vss]

I talked to two of my friends who are keeping piwo's red turks now (they were raised by parasite-free method in piwo's shop, and now mixed with discus from other sources). What they said is that these fish are very strong and do not seem to be more vulnerable to parasites and bateria than normal discus.

-Xiaofei :)

[Tito]

Can someone see my logic......


In order to insure that a Discus is parasite free .....

would it not be true that the Discus itself would have to be put under the microscope? would it not also be true that the water it swims in would also have to be put under a microscope?

I'm just thinking out loud here but parasites can be microscopic yes?

So without checking every drop of water and the fish itself - how can you promise that - they are parasite free?

Tito scratches head as he continues to ponder....



.....as I continue to ponder - I wonder if my fish are parasite free in my tank - they certainly do look healthy....


maybe this is over my head - is this like a "concept" parasite free, or is it like a "theory" thing...

I don't get it - sorry.

[wgtaylor]

Couldn't agree more with Steve and Ryan. It was always the intention of most of the breeders I've known to maintain a parasite (worm, fluke, hex etc.) free hatchery.
Parasites are much easier to quarantine out of the hatchery. Viral diseases on the other hand I agree would be much harder to guarantee against.

Hey Martha, thanks for that link to the interview with Jack Wattley, I hadn't seen that one before. However reading through Wattley's books he claims he raises
up to 75 percent artificially and only 25 percent with parents. There possibly could have been a translation error with the interview in the link you posted. In Wattley's book,
Discus for the Perfectionist, Copyright 1991, page 76 is one reference he refers to raising 75 percent artificially.
On page 79 is a precise article how he artificially raises fry using hard boiled egg mixed with artemia, no longer bakers egg powder, amount of methylene blue, when to remove it,
the type, amount and use of antibiotics with the fry. Had to save that article as a pdf for reference, a keeper.
In this book he interviews some of the greats,
Dick Au, USA
Dr. Clifford Chan, Singapore
David Dollman, USA
Richard Feiller, USA
Manfred Gobel, Germany
Donald Handley, New Zealand
Dale Jordan, Canada
Stephen Long, Zimbabwe
Yasushi Nakamura, Japan
DVM Kenneth Reeves, USA
Dr. Eduard Schmidt-Focke, Germany
Eberhard Schulze, England
Akimitsu Shirase, Japan
Chong Moh Wong, Malaysia
Interesting how many of these guys artificially raised fry but some of them none at all. Great collection of information from the pioneers.
Also interesting is none of these guys interviewed had any problem with fry die-off. Were those discus genetically superior or just stronger because of less in-breeding through decades.

Another good read is, Handbook of Discus by Jack Wattley copyright 1985.
On page 75 and 77 Wattley has a brief statement about albino discus, so, the albino's have been around for at least 25 years.
Only in the last few years have I seen much of a change from the original ,golden albino, type to include the varieties we see now.
Since it takes an albino gene to produce an albino I would guess the gene pool has remained pretty small and saturated possibly producing weaker fish.
I know there are people here on Simply that are using some nice intermediates to get better viability out of their discus and my opinion that is what needs to be done with albinos.
We will probably see better breeding albinos in the future because I believe not enough past breeders wanted to waste a generation breeding intermediates with no albino color. Just my opinion of course.

[Steve Rybicki]

Can someone see my logic......


In order to insure that a Discus is parasite free .....

would it not be true that the Discus itself would have to be put under the microscope? would it not also be true that the water it swims in would also have to be put under a microscope?

I'm just thinking out loud here but parasites can be microscopic yes?

So without checking every drop of water and the fish itself - how can you promise that - they are parasite free?

Tito scratches head as he continues to ponder....

Here's how I look at it. I don't guarantee parasite-free fish, I just tell customers about my procedures and how it has worked to keep parasites out of the hatchery. They can choose to believe it or not. I do check periodically with a microscope, but obviously can't check every fish or every drop of water. A guarantee would serve no purpose. How would anyone prove when a parasite was exposed to a fish?

It is my firm belief that if a fish parasite is present, it will attack some stressed fish, and in a large hatchery (like mine), there are always fish that are under stress, whether it's because a spawn gets a bit crowded or a mated pair is fighting or one of dozens of other things that can happen. Parasites tend to explode in numbers when attacking a stressed fish. It becomes quite obvious when a fish is not doing well. Checking that fish under the scope will confirm whether is from parasites or not. So far, with my many microscopic examinations I haven't found any (and I know what I'm looking for). Every problem I've diagnosed in my hatchery has been from an opportunistic bacteria - the kind that is everywhere and attacks individual stressed fish.

I can easily compare my quarantined fish rooms of the past with my present day parasite-free hatchery and there is no comparison. I will never give up the procedure I'm currently using to keep the parasites out. The difference is absolutely amazing and that is all I really care about. I don't care if it's good sales aid when promoting my fish. In fact, it doesn't even matter to me if anyone believes it.