Planted Tanks - What are the problems?

[Strong Coffee]

I'm new to discus and I would like to make my tank planted, but from looking around the forum a bit, planted tanks are described as challenging. What are the problems and pitfalls that are encountered with planted tanks vs. non planted tanks?

I am keen to keep a planted tank, but I don't want to take on too much at once.

Thanks.

[Sharkbait]

While I have not had discus, I've had planted tanks for years...they are challenging unto themselves and adding discus, while creating an infinitly more beautiful environment, require a little more care in the 'balance' of both fish and plants.

First and foremost...figure out what you want more...a beautiful garden, or a beautiful discus tank. There can be a little push and pull but finding that balance is tricky.

Temperature. Most plants require certain temperatures much cooler than discus. Discus prefer warmer temps, so placing cooler plants into those temps will melt them in days. You can try to slowly raise the temp to acclimate the plant to the warmer environment, however, they will never "thrive" as well as they would in their natural temperature.

Backgrounds/Substrates. Plants look best with a black background because the colours 'pop.' Also, most substrates that are nutrient rich for plants are dark (brownish, black). These dark colours often cause the discus to darken or pepper because they adapt to their surroundings. A nice silca sand is often the solution to this (apparently discus react more to the substrate than the background, especially if you have a nice planted background hiding the black). Sand isn't the best for plants, but works for many if you add root tabs to supplement nutrients.

Water Changes. Chad Hughes is the man for this. He raised discus up from fry in a planted tank with only one water change a week. I only change my water once a week (50%) because it's based on the Estimated Index style of dosing fertilisers. If you're not experienced in discus, start with sub-adults/adults because they will require less care and be more hardy when it comes to water changes. Younger fish require more food to grow which in turn requires more water changes. More food = more waste in the substrate which is harder to get at in a planted tank. More waste = bad water = sad fish. Your plants WILL suck up a lot of the nitrates and waste, however, that all depends on how densely planted your tank is.

Low-Tech/High Tech Planted tanks. Most planted discus tanks I know of are low tech, which are great because they fit more in that balance, and are honestly closer to the amazon biotope discus are accustomed to (lots of wood, amazon swords, anubias, etc.) These plants don't require a lot of light, ferts, or even C02, though I'd recommend some ferts and flourish excel at the very least. High tech tanks will give you a bigger challenge beause they have more light, C02, and lots of ferts. Just more things to add to your weekly fish routine.

Lighting/C02/Ferts. Some say that discus are scared of some of the harsh light that plants need to grow. The deeper your tank, the more light obviously. I haven't seen issues with this though. C02 is a must if you want a nice densely planted tank. If not properly monitored (PH monitor, solenoid) you could overdose C02 and kill your fish. It's easily avoidable with the right equipment. Ferts are essential to good plant growth. I haven't heard of any issues with ferts causing problems with discus.

It's definitely a challenge, but do you research because it IS very rewarding. I still don't have discus yet (mainly a money issue because I want adults), but you can tell I've done my reading :) Just make sure that you figure out what you want more. If I were you, I'd plan the tank around the fish, and have the plants suit the environment, not the other way around. Also start with low-tech and work up to high tech if that's what you want to achieve.

Best of luck!

[zamboniMan]

I'm new to discus and I would like to make my tank planted, but from looking around the forum a bit, planted tanks are described as challenging. What are the problems and pitfalls that are encountered with planted tanks vs. non planted tanks?

I am keen to keep a planted tank, but I don't want to take on too much at once.

Thanks.

Well if you're just going to throw plants in and go sit back on the couch no big deal. But aquascaping is difficult. Plus planted tanks require more attention the BB tanks because its difficult to siphon around the plants also because if your tank is under stocked the plants will run of nutrients. Also lighting needs to be better (generally) than in non planted tanks.

For me the biggest pitfall is aquascaping I get caught up in placing plants, and designing the aquascape. Plus then it seems like when I do get things where I like them I inevitably end up having to net some fish out and pull out some of the plants while doing some.

Also to keep things neat you'll have to periodically trim and thin you plants which isn't difficult necessarily but it is time consuming.

Basically it's just more maintenance especially for a beginner. Though if you have the time and patience it is quite rewarding. You can make as simple or complex as you want. As low tech or as high tech. Consider your budget and order your plants accordingly.

Start with a small tank and move up as the smaller tanks don't take as many plants to fill and you can mess around and make more dramatic changes more easily.

[Strong Coffee]

Excellent, thanks for the comprehensive answers.

[DonMD]

Sharkbait, that was quite an answer! Excellent.

I've sort of found a compromise. I've had my 125 g non-planted discus tank with sand and driftwood for a while now, I've very happy with it. But I got the bug for an aquascape, and so picked up a 30g cube, and set up a separate high tech tank (obviously no discus). One of each:D

By the way, can you describe, or point me to a reference to: Estimated Index style of dosing fertilisers? I'd like to learn more about that.

Thanks.

[Sharkbait]

Just took a quick peek and googled it ....

http://www.irishfishforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=367 (http://www.irishfishforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=367)

What this site doesn't tell you is what levels you need for good plant growth.

20-30ppm C02
5-10ppm Potassium Nitrate
.25-5.0 Phosphate
0.2-0.5ppm Iron
10-30ppm Potassium

Here is a good thread on specifically Discus and the EI method.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fish/94479-discus-ei-dosing.html

Just look up Tom Barr for anything EI related. Amazing aquarist.

[exv152]

Tom Barr is definitely the expert when it comes to the EI. The basic theory behind EI is to dose more than what is necessary for iron, trace elements, nitrates, potassium and phosphorus, and at the end of each week do a %50 water change. This ensures the tank is never nutrient deficient, and make sure you balance that with appropriate CO2 diffusion and adequate lighting. Seems complex but it really isn't that hard, just time consuming, but well worth the results. The only thing to really consider when keeping discus in such a tank is to watch that the nitrate levels don't exceed 15-20 ppm, so water testing on a weekly basis is a must. Also, I wouldn't raise young discus in such a tank.

[zamboniMan]

Tom Barr is definitely the expert when it comes to the EI. The basic theory behind EI is to dose more than what is necessary for iron, trace elements, nitrates, potassium and phosphorus, and at the end of each week do a %50 water change. This ensures the tank is never nutrient deficient, and make sure you balance that with appropriate CO2 diffusion and adequate lighting. Seems complex but it really isn't that hard, just time consuming, but well worth the results. The only thing to really consider when keeping discus in such a tank is to watch that the nitrate levels don't exceed 15-20 ppm, so water testing on a weekly basis is a must. Also, I wouldn't raise young discus in such a tank.

For as much as he says he has quite little to back it up. Alot of people are getting away from EI and moving toward less time consuming and safer methods.

This website has several methods (mods if this offends you please feel free to remove it):
http://www.aquaspire.com/forums/forum/17-fertilizers-water-parameters-and-substrate/page__s__5ff32d5338de5098064f66a856c57a9c

My suggestions is to add fish and do is little as possible. Safer for the fish and equally effective.

[Harriett]

Strong Coffee:
Sharkbait, with no disrespect intended, I have some comments and would like to offer them by responding to a few of your well stated suggestions and information:
1. You can be successful in having a planted discus tank! I encourage you to research the archives, we have lots of information on doing just that here at SD--for fish and plant info and everything in between!. You will find personal opinion runs high on many details, so I will try to stick to the type of generalizations that the majority share in this regard. If you are new to discus, be aware there is a learning curve. You will learn faster and be more successful if you raise your discus juveniles , if that is what you are getting, in the simplest setting which I believe to be a bare bottom [bb] tank for the first year or so while you learn the ropes about the fish. With adults, you can more easily introduce them to a planted tank, but if you are a newbie in that department also, best to go bb for starters there for many.
You also need to learn the ropes about planted tanks, by starting a planted tank as well and run that for a while so until you know what you are doing, just for the experience--it is an art in itself. There are lots of plant forums around and aquatic plant clubs in many cities--folks will give or swap or sell plants which would be cheaper to get you going and mentor you. Not clear if you have plant experience yet, so if this is too rudimentary, plz excuse!

Plants and temps: aquatic plants come from all over the planet and there are some that are easy to raise and tolerate higher temps quite well. Another reason to keep juvies in a bb tank is that we usually keep the temp spiked a bit for various reasons [84 degrees up to 86 or higher, for some]. Adults do well in 82 and many plants handle it well--as Sharkbait said, you can also acclimatize some plants up from their preferred 76-78 and do fine. [More stickies and research on what plants to use...] Many here have great luck with swords, crypts, epongagetons, grasses, anubias, some lillies. There are lots of planted tanks around that are several years old--plants CAN last a long time if you know what you are doing, hi or low tech style!

Background: I agree, the drama of a black background is hard to beat--it's my favorite. However, most strains of discus do darken [hard wired for preservation from dark swooping birds of prey, etc] so the colors of the discus are not great with black. The exceptions are ALBINO discus, which are quite popular in the states right now, and they do not darken, so if you are set on black background/substrate, think about that solution.
Discus respond, IME, to both substrate and background color about equally in a planted tank--either will produce the effect of darkening--so going light on both is best if you are tuning into your discus coloration, even in a heavily planted tank. They will be more gregarious and bold if they don't feel like attack is imminent, I assure you.
Silica [pool or spa] sand is quite light in color, dense in weight, holds plants beautifully and you can fertilize such a tank easily both through water column and root tabs. Silica sand keeps ditrius and debris on the top of the substrate for easier clean up. Gravel is more permeable due to larger grains, crap gets trapped, bacterial build up is an issue. Sand must be periodically stirred through its depth to avoid anaerobic pockets from forming--most use a python hose to clean the substrate and stir it around. Malaysian Trumpet snails act like aquatic earthworms to stir sand also and mostly stay where you never see them.

Chad is able to do weekly water changes on babies and juvies for a few reasons, one of which is that he employs a larger heavily technical filtration system which includes an ozone filter. [research this]. In general, a bb tank does require more water changes IME [70% daily for mine], than a planted tank because the substrate and plants act as a big ole biofilter in addition to the filtration system you set up.
Juvies require more water changes than adults for the reasons Sharkbait has explained.

Info overload, right?
To finish off, in a planted discus tank, whether low or high tech, you are balancing light intensity and duration, fertilization, and CO2 [naturally occuring or injected].
I have the best luck in my planted tanks using HEAVIER filtration and fine pore foam prefilters, lower stocking ratios than the 1 adult discus/10 g formula [I usually keep 12-13 discus in a 180], I keep my juvies in bb grow out tanks until they hit 5" +, I plan the tank layout so I can root around with the python in the substrate pretty much everywhere and I do so weekly; I do one water change a week on planted tanks, of 75% or so. Once a planted discus tank is established, I rarely add more fish to it---introducing new fish is the easiest vector to introduce problems, if it's a given that your maintenance is of a high standard. If I do plan to add fish, I QT for about 12 weeks--just too paranoid to go faster, after having been bit in the butt years back!

The best thing about this forum is that folks here will be glad to help and answer questions--so do some homework and ask away! Very best of luck on your projects!
Harriett





While I have not had discus, I've had planted tanks for years...they are challenging unto themselves and adding discus, while creating an infinitly more beautiful environment, require a little more care in the 'balance' of both fish and plants.

First and foremost...figure out what you want more...a beautiful garden, or a beautiful discus tank. There can be a little push and pull but finding that balance is tricky.

Temperature. Most plants require certain temperatures much cooler than discus. Discus prefer warmer temps, so placing cooler plants into those temps will melt them in days. You can try to slowly raise the temp to acclimate the plant to the warmer environment, however, they will never "thrive" as well as they would in their natural temperature.

Backgrounds/Substrates. Plants look best with a black background because the colours 'pop.' Also, most substrates that are nutrient rich for plants are dark (brownish, black). These dark colours often cause the discus to darken or pepper because they adapt to their surroundings. A nice silca sand is often the solution to this (apparently discus react more to the substrate than the background, especially if you have a nice planted background hiding the black). Sand isn't the best for plants, but works for many if you add root tabs to supplement nutrients.

Water Changes. Chad Hughes is the man for this. He raised discus up from fry in a planted tank with only one water change a week. I only change my water once a week (50%) because it's based on the Estimated Index style of dosing fertilisers. If you're not experienced in discus, start with sub-adults/adults because they will require less care and be more hardy when it comes to water changes. Younger fish require more food to grow which in turn requires more water changes. More food = more waste in the substrate which is harder to get at in a planted tank. More waste = bad water = sad fish. Your plants WILL suck up a lot of the nitrates and waste, however, that all depends on how densely planted your tank is.

Low-Tech/High Tech Planted tanks. Most planted discus tanks I know of are low tech, which are great because they fit more in that balance, and are honestly closer to the amazon biotope discus are accustomed to (lots of wood, amazon swords, anubias, etc.) These plants don't require a lot of light, ferts, or even C02, though I'd recommend some ferts and flourish excel at the very least. High tech tanks will give you a bigger challenge beause they have more light, C02, and lots of ferts. Just more things to add to your weekly fish routine.

Lighting/C02/Ferts. Some say that discus are scared of some of the harsh light that plants need to grow. The deeper your tank, the more light obviously. I haven't seen issues with this though. C02 is a must if you want a nice densely planted tank. If not properly monitored (PH monitor, solenoid) you could overdose C02 and kill your fish. It's easily avoidable with the right equipment. Ferts are essential to good plant growth. I haven't heard of any issues with ferts causing problems with discus.

It's definitely a challenge, but do you research because it IS very rewarding. I still don't have discus yet (mainly a money issue because I want adults), but you can tell I've done my reading :) Just make sure that you figure out what you want more. If I were you, I'd plan the tank around the fish, and have the plants suit the environment, not the other way around. Also start with low-tech and work up to high tech if that's what you want to achieve.

Best of luck!

[smiley]

http://www.barrreport.com/

[Darrell Ward]

I'm new to discus and I would like to make my tank planted, but from looking around the forum a bit, planted tanks are described as challenging. What are the problems and pitfalls that are encountered with planted tanks vs. non planted tanks?

I am keen to keep a planted tank, but I don't want to take on too much at once.

Thanks.

I would encourage you to first set up a bare bottom tank, get some juvies, and grow them out first. This will give you experience in keeping discus. When the discus get adult size, then set up your planted tank. I guarantee this method will save you a lot of headaches from mistakes beginners sometimes get themselves into.

[exv152]

Strong Coffee,
A lot of what people are saying here is true, and I agree in that you should probably try raising discus separately from doing your first planted tank. Especially given the complexity of both. Planted tanks can take awhile to master and understand, and the same can be said about discus. But, unlike regular aquariums bigger is not necessarily better when it comes to planted tanks as CO2 stability becomes a major challenge in the larger tanks, and algae can be harder to control the bigger you go. Good luck.

[Strong Coffee]

Wow,

Thanks for all of the responses everyone. This forum really is proving to be a source of valuable information and advice that everyone has gathered over the years.

I will continue with my pair of young discus at the moment (more to come to join them soon). After many years of tropicals I am taking on the challenge of discus and I will spend some time keeping them before taking on more with a planted tank.

To answer the questions about the substrate, I currently have gravel - which this forum seems to frown upon, so this weekend, I am going to change it to sand as this is a display tank in my lounge and I don't fancy a BB.

Thanks again for all your help, I will come back to this when I take on a planted tank.

Strong Coffee