plants not doing well

[tcmemphisbbq]

here is my problem - my plants are doing terrible.....

PH about 8ish (cant help it, its what im stuck with)
I use Excel and Flourish for supplements - Running 1.5 wpg of "plant" spectrum lights....

leaves SLOWLY turn brown, no growth, decaying leaves.

Planted in sand as you already know if you read this thread LOL....

It seems ive never had good luck with plants, I know my lighting is not good enough but even low light plants seem to slowly die off, dare I say I am almost to the point of buying "artificial plants" because my live ones just decay and increase particulate matter in the water column...

Opinions/Thoughts?

I have pics on another thread -
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=76151

[mareshow]

Hmm how often do you do water changes? I know i had a problem keeping plants with WC everyday, now that i'm only doing one a week it seems everyone is a lot happier including the discus, mind you they also got upgraded from a 37g to a 180 lol. Also excel may be melting them, i'm sure you've heard the rumors but besides this If you can switch to T5HO you wont have any problems only run two bulbs and you should be fine (thats what i have and i find the plants are all doing extremely well.)

HTH
Marek

[tcmemphisbbq]

I do on average 2-3 50%wc per week, primed tap - Very hard water, not ideal for discus but it is stable, never changes - I've ran peat in both canisters and saw no difference so I quite buying it hehe -

Ive not heard about excel rumor? Whats that about, I have been using it -

[tcmemphisbbq]

Also - I read the list of plants that do well at high temps, but what about hard water like mine? :-) Does anyone have any recommendations that would flourish under fairly low light, hard water hehe...

I am terrible with plant names, here is a pic of my tank, maybe someone can tell me what I have -
http://tcmemphisbbq.com/tank/12-27/CIMG0499.JPG

[KEWX]

Have you tried Root Tabs Plant Fertilizer ? It looks like most of those plants need more than fertilizer in the water because they don't draw enough through their leaves.

[theblondskeleton]

It looks like what you have are some java fern and Echinodorus species (Amazon Sword Plant as PetCo calls them). Brown leaves on the Echinodorus would mean likely an iron deficiency. They are heavy root feeders that need a lot of iron, so root tabs would be a necessity without a rich substrate. Now, if you mean brown leaves on the Java Fern, I wouldn't worry too much. The spots are generally where the plant propagates new plantlets. They eventually grow into new little java ferns. Occasionally, the older leaves will go brown, but that's nothing to worry about. After the nuclear holocaust the only living things on earth will be cockroaches and java fern. :)

Check out Aquarium Plant Central's Plantfinder. you can look for plants based on their growth requirements there. It doesn't include hard/soft water, but if you search low light plants, you may find some that fare better in hard water with a high pH.

HTH

PS - Java fern is a VERY slow grower. Don't expect to see much action out of that one in a low light tank.

[Sharkbait]

I second theblondeskeleton...

Your amazon swords will suck more of their nutrients from their roots. Root tabs are a must! Java fern is pretty impossible to kill. That's why I've never been a fan of it...it looks like it's kinda dying when propagating. Then you just pull the little sprouts off. It actually can grow out of substrate. Your other plant is a type of anubias.

I've never heard of pros/cons of plants being in a PH of 8. Normally once you cross the PH 8 threshold one starts thinking african cichlid tank...which is pretty devoid of plants. I dunno! lol. Just know that plants, like fish, have an optimum growing environment and the PH 'might' be the issue.

Add root tabs, see if there's a change. You lighting is fine for those plants, though slow growth should be expected. Do you dose other ferts? Even mixes would be better than nothing.

[philip69285]

Second all that has been said. I have laterite under my gravel and I still have to root feed my swords... they are crazy at root feeding and pretty much use up whats there very quickly.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Ill grab some root tabs when im up at the lfs getting blackworms this week and give them a try :-) Thanks everyone!
Tom

[cfi on the fly]

I had very hard water like yours with a ph of 8 also. It grew incredibly frustrating to buy plants only to have them look good for 2 weeks and then begin to die off.

I finally bit the bullet, got ro water mixed 25% with tap for a 6.7ph, 150 tds, 3 kh solution, t5ho lighting, and most importantly pressurized co2. Yep, it cost some serious money, but now I have more growth than I know what to do with- I seriously feel awful trimming and having to throw away plants that I used to pay good money for.

All I can say is that if you plan to have discus and a good variety of colorful plants, not just swords, plan to spend some money to get the correct water conditions. I don't make a ton of money, but for me, it has been well worth it.

[Yassmeena]

Hi,

There's one more possibility you should explore before you spend a lot of money of changing your water and installing pressurized CO2. That is that the plants may be just transitioning to the new conditions of your tank.

Every sword I have put in my discus tank (plus many other plants) experienced the same "dying" as yours, only it was not dying, just changing it's metabolism. I would allow the plants to wither, cutting off the dead leaves, and wait to watch for signs of new growth (small baby leaves) that may appear within the 1st month of placing the plant in your tank (yes, wait 1 month).

If signs of new growth are present, just give the plant more time to grow fully. I placed a large sword in my tank 2 months ago, and it lost all of its leaves. Now it has 15 leaves about 6 inches tall each leaf.

I second adding root tabs. I put 3 flourish root tabs under all my swords, and they love it! I place the tabs when I place the swords, even if they are wilting. :)

It would be helpful for you to know more about the plants you are trying to grow. Each plant has different characteristics, and until you know what those are you may be misdiagnosing the behavior. I like the website http://www.tropica.com/default.asp It has images and characteristics.

Give the plants time to transition (3 - 4 mos).

HTH

Yasmin

[exv152]

I’m probably going to repeat what others have suggested here but, it’s true, amazons rely heavily on nutrient uptake through the roots. So excel and flourish helps but doesn’t address the main issue in your tank which I believe to be a general overall nutrient deficiency. There are half a dozen nutrients that show the same, or similar symptoms when there’s a deficiency. From what you describe, browning of leaves, it sounds like you could have several trace element deficiencies, and not to mention a CO2 deficiency. Also, sand is not the ideal substrate for Amazon swords as they prefer particle sizes a bit bigger to latch onto. Then there’s the fact that your lighting is a bit weak, and the CO2 supply is really low, probably less than 10 ppm. The higher pH isn’t really a huge problem but it has been proven that nutrients cannot be as well absorbed by plants in higher pH water, something worth thinking about.

[Yassmeena]

Hi there - I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I think both the sand and the lighting are just fine.

I say this because I am currently successfully growing several swords (amazons, rubins and ozelot) in sand.

I have also seen these grow well in stock lights at my LFS. I have seen the swords thriving in their tanks for months and months. These are T8s, the stock lights.

Just give them a chance to grow back.

Swords and other plants can adjust their metabolism to match changing conditions. This includes often pulling carbon from their own leaves in order to grow new ones. The new leaves will grow with an adjusted metabolic rate that does not require drawing carbon from the old leaves, but rather from the fertilizers in the water and substrate.


I’m probably going to repeat what others have suggested here but, it’s true, amazons rely heavily on nutrient uptake through the roots. So excel and flourish helps but doesn’t address the main issue in your tank which I believe to be a general overall nutrient deficiency. There are half a dozen nutrients that show the same, or similar symptoms when there’s a deficiency. From what you describe, browning of leaves, it sounds like you could have several trace element deficiencies, and not to mention a CO2 deficiency. Also, sand is not the ideal substrate for Amazon swords as they prefer particle sizes a bit bigger to latch onto. Then there’s the fact that your lighting is a bit weak, and the CO2 supply is really low, probably less than 10 ppm. The higher pH isn’t really a huge problem but it has been proven that nutrients cannot be as well absorbed by plants in higher pH water, something worth thinking about.

[exv152]

...but I think both the sand and the lighting are just fine

I'm just telling you what an ideal growing environment is for swords, and low lighting and sand are not ideal. But there are other more important points I make such as co2 deficiency, and most importantly, nutrient deficiency.

[chachi]

there is some good advice here that people are giving and i just want to say what i know from my experience that will help.

1) the use of root tabs for heavy feeding plants works well. i use them and replace every 3 mo or so. just follow the package directions. root tabs have trace elements in them so that will help if this is the issue also.

2) plants can get both the main nutrients(N-P-K) and trace elements absorbed through the leaves or through the roots. if you can isolate your problem you can try to go either route or both.

3) your wpg might be ok, but you will get more growth with increased lighting and co2. the wpg model is a bit outdated. you will get much more light from a T5 fixture with the same watts at a T8 or T12. if you just increase the lighting without co2 you might cause algae growth though. you are trying to get a balance where there is acceptable light for the plants you have selected and enough co2 or carbon source (excel) for the plants to use the light at full potential. your nutrients will then be the limiting factor for the growth and you can control those through testing and dosing. my strategy with my tank is to limit the phosphate and have that as the control of nutrient uptake. i actually add nitrates to my tank lol.

4) you could change the plants you selected if none of these are alternatives. i find if i stick to my formula and a plant doesn't do good, i stick with what i have "luck" with. a good book with plant requirements helps with selecting.

about this:


Yep, it cost some serious money, but now I have more growth than I know what to do with- I seriously feel awful trimming and having to throw away plants that I used to pay good money for.


I make sell-able plant bunches with the metal wraps if necessary and trade them in at my LFS. i got enough credit last time to get a free large size block of beef heart :) if they wont give you credit you could give them for free and at least get the satisfaction of putting more back into the hobby then you took.

[erikc]

Just to add to this topic.

Having visited the Tropica greenhouses in Danemark (yes, yes I know , any planted tank enthusiats dream) they gave me a truly un -beleiveble tip :

The echinodorous genus does require a lot of nutrients by the roots and the best way of starting one off in a new tank is actually by cutting all the leaves off and placing the roots in a sandy substare with root tabs !!! That's it, no complicated CO2 (required for other types of plants) and some good lighting. Just keep it simple.

Directly from the horses mouth so to say ....

[Yassmeena]

Just to add to this topic.

Having visited the Tropica greenhouses in Danemark (yes, yes I know , any planted tank enthusiats dream) they gave me a truly un -beleiveble tip :

The echinodorous genus does require a lot of nutrients by the roots and the best way of starting one off in a new tank is actually by cutting all the leaves off and placing the roots in a sandy substare with root tabs !!! That's it, no complicated CO2 (required for other types of plants) and some good lighting. Just keep it simple.

Directly from the horses mouth so to say ....

I have had great success with this method as well.

[theblondskeleton]

Ditto on trimming the leaves. I have a Kleiner Bar sword to which I have done this twice, and it grows back beautifully every time.

The only reason you would need a lot of CO2 or extra fertilizers is if you have high lighting. It's a trifecta that demands balance: Light, CO2, Nutrients. Increase any one of these, and the others must increase proportionally to keep up, or you will have an algae bloom. Generally, plants will adapt (with some exceptions). Since you have low light, dosing with Excel should be fine for a carbon source (though expensive in a tank that size!), putting the root tabs in will cover you for micronutrients, and your fish waste provides your macros.

I second the idea of going RO.

PS - I'd recommend picking up Christel Kasselmann's book Aquarium Plants if you are interested in knowing more about plants. One species off the top of my head - aponogeton natans does very well in very hard water at high temperatures - though it's not exactly biotope specific.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Just wanted to follow this up and say that I added root tabes and even after a few days I noticed they were greening up alot better...

Thanks everyone for the help on this... :-)

Tom

[bs6749]

What kind of lighting do you have? Fixture type (PC/CF, T5, Incandescent, MH, etc.) and spectrum please. Amazon swords, and swords in general would do MUCH better than with the lighting you currently have. They would also appreciate a nutrient rich substrate, but since you are most likely wanting to stick with that sand to keep the color of your discus on the light side you will want to add fertilizer tabs frequently. I'd say once every 10-14 days or more frequently if they disappear faster.

Also, Flourish Excel can melt some plants, but it is safe for most. Vals, anacharis, and some others are especially vulnerable to it's melting effects. That looks like anacharis to me in your tank by your sponge filter on the right.

[tcmemphisbbq]

I have 2 36" fixtures and a 48inch fixture and sometimes another 36 i use on another tank lol - its a hodge podge, most bulbs are plant bulbs, and a couple are 50/50 cause they were reef bulbs and while I know the actenics are useless for plants we like the blueish tint and how the color looks with the discus....

Funny you should mention the excel, since someone mentioned it previously I stopped using it and that plant has greened up ALOT...

I will wait another week and snap another pic and see if we can all tell a diff :-)

[bs6749]

Don't get me wrong, Excel is a decent product but you should know which plants to avoid using it on because it will kill them. I've seen it from personal experience (anacharis).

Are the lights incandescent though? If they are made by All-Glass Aquariums then they should be. I used incandescent lighting over my 55g tank with the "special" plant bulbs (Plant-Gro or something like that) and found out that they are useless. You would see much better growth if you got a T5 setup. It may be around $200 for the lighting you would need, but in my opinion it would be worth it. You would have substantial growth and would be able to sell off your excess plants to pay for the fixture!

[underwaterforest]

They are kinda ugly unless painted or hidden well, but the waterproof Costco flood light with compact fluorescent are great plant lights. They are rated at 65 watts and are 6500k and the best part is they only cost 15 bucks apiece with the power discount that most supplier give with it. I am still running one on my 36 gallon with my t5's and it is still going strong. The sad thing is the whole fixture cost less than buying just the replacement bulb for them.

[bs6749]

But are they the spiral type CF bulbs? If so, those are far less useful than a regular CF/PC style bulb.

[underwaterforest]

No they are not the spiral design ones. They have the 4 u type florescent tubes on a larger mogal base just like the standard CFs.

[bs6749]

Do you have a link to the fixture or a similar one from Walmart? It may be worth looking into.

[underwaterforest]

I didn't buy them online I just went down to the store and got them. The only thing I remember about the box was it said the light were flour-ex technology. They have been as far as I know standard Costco item for many years, especially after the power crisis here in California.

Here is a link I just found- (looks like the same as mine, twice the price though)
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-40678/Detail

[bs6749]

Thanks...I was thinking that the fixture would be somewhat...smaller LOL. But like you said, they aren't to be pretty.

[tcmemphisbbq]

they are all flourescent, t12's I believe, 6500k on the 48inch dual bulb fixture, the two 36" are the 50/50 - we get some cool shadows out of the combo, if I had a really decent camera I could get some cool shadow shots.

Now if I could just get rid of these pesky snails popping up everywhere..

[bs6749]

Your tank is on the low light end if you have T12's. I would recommend getting other lighting.

As far as snails, if they are getting out of control then you are overfeeding. If you want to remove them there are several decent methods. One that I would recommend would be to first pick out/net out any that you can on the sides of the tank and that are easily removed. After that put a large piece of lettuce into the microwave for about 10 seconds. Since you have a 125g tank you may want to do two pieces of lettuce. Put the nuked lettuce in the tank and make sure that it stays at the bottom. You will need to weigh it down somehow. Allow the lettuce to remain in the tank for an hour or so and it will become covered with snails. Remove it and repeat as necessary.

Another option would be to purchase 4-5 yo-yo loaches as they are excellent eaters of both snails and snail eggs. They will hunt them all down and your tank should be snail free within a week or so. I would first remove all of the snails that you can though to jump start the progress of snail removal.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Yeah I squish them and siphon them out with every wc - I will try the lettuce trick.. i got a couple of clown loaches and now they are so fat they cant eat em all lol

[David Rose]

Hey TC... have you posted any pictures of your set ups yet? Would love to see! ;)