Planted Tank - Non CO²

[Mark Webb]

Is anyone running a very successful large planted tank without CO²?

Considering running with the Diana Walsted method.

[smsimcik]

Here's mine. 100 gallon. 130 watts of 6700k light. no CO2. Just florish Excel dosed once weekly.

The first picture is from last summer. The others are recent with discus added.

[Harriett]

I have been running my 180g planted tank without CO2 for about 6 months now--I ran out and decided to see how much it changed things in there to go without. What I found was this: Stem plants especially and some grasses slowed down in growth and just didn't seem to do as well. I eventually pulled all of that. Lillies didn't do well without the CO2 in this tank and I lost them. The crypts and swords did fine and I have kept them, same for anubius. The swords and crypts have basically filled in the footprint as much as I let them go. I have about 2.2 wpg. I have the same lights, reduced down a bit on the fert amount and added some root tabs. I use some EXCEL weekly. The plants look pretty good, I do not think the tank looks as vibrant without the CO2, and the growth is slower which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It looks good enough to continue this way but I will probably go back to CO2 shortly--I left the whole controller set up in place. THis was an experiment--I just want that vibrancy back.
Those are my impressions. I have run that tank with CO2 for about 5 years or so total.
Best regards,
Harriett

[Mark Webb]

Thanks for the replies - much appreciated.

[rich815]

If you limit yourself to crypts, anubias, ferns and some swords you should be fine. Thing is a good CO2 setup means you use some really nice stem plants that I'm convinced when healthy and strong really provide a great ecosystem for plants and discus. Sure, the initial cost will be about $150 but the CO2 is cheap. Excel is very expensive.

[zamboniMan]

If you limit yourself to crypts, anubias, ferns and some swords you should be fine. Thing is a good CO2 setup means you use some really nice stem plants that I'm convinced when healthy and strong really provide a great ecosystem for plants and discus. Sure, the initial cost will be about $150 but the CO2 is cheap. Excel is very expensive.

But if you stock right you'll have more than enough fish for the plants which eliminates the need for CO2. I have one CO2 setup now and it's in use on one tank that only has shrimp.

[exv152]

But if you stock right you'll have more than enough fish for the plants which eliminates the need for CO2. I have one CO2 setup now and it's in use on one tank that only has shrimp.

I would have to disagree with you there. Nothing eliminates the need for CO2 in a planted tank, not fish, excel or anything. Stems plants require a CO2 supply, but if you stick to easy plants like anubias, crypts etc there is still a need, less so, but you never eliminate the need for CO2 in plants.

[zamboniMan]

I would have to disagree with you there. Nothing eliminates the need for CO2 in a planted tank, not fish, excel or anything. Stems plants require a CO2 supply, but if you stick to easy plants like anubias, crypts etc there is still a need, less so, but you never eliminate the need for CO2 in plants.

No one injects CO2 into environments where the plants are found.

Fish naturally provide CO2 so add fish and don't touch the stuff. Fish also provide key nutrients plants require so again proper stocking, no need to dose. Most plant people find the concept hard to deal with but it's true. I've had Erio's pearl in tanks that didn't have CO2 injection, and weren't dosed (though I use organic miracle grow as substrate so they're up to their stems in fertilizer) but were heavily stocked with fish. I know around 2 dozen other hobbyists who also subscribe to this method. It may not be "planted tank convention" but trust me it works.

[exv152]

No one injects CO2 into environments where the plants are found.

Fish naturally provide CO2 so add fish and don't touch the stuff. Fish also provide key nutrients plants require so again proper stocking, no need to dose. Most plant people find the concept hard to deal with but it's true. I've had Erio's pearl in tanks that didn't have CO2 injection, and weren't dosed (though I use organic miracle grow as substrate so they're up to their stems in fertilizer) but were heavily stocked with fish. I know around 2 dozen other hobbyists who also subscribe to this method. It may not be "planted tank convention" but trust me it works.

Fish will never provide enough natural CO2 for stem plants to “flourish”. In nature dissolved organic carbon is plentiful in the form of CO2, CO3, H2CO3, HC03, and others, which are not available in a closed aquarium environment. That’s just CO2, which is separate from plants needing nutrients (micro & macro) and adequate lighting. However, the question was posed whether you need CO2 to have a successful planted tank, and the answer depends on several factors;1) the type of plants, ex. Stem v. rosette, 2) how many plants you want to keep, 3) how many fish to intend to keep etc. If you’re looking for an ADA or Dutch style planted tank, then yes, CO2 is a must. If you’re looking for a moderate to low planted tank with slow growing plants, then not so much.

[zamboniMan]

Given the small size of most tanks it is actually possible to have heavily planted tanks. Even with constant water changes that discus require. Plus if you use tap some you'll have more carbon sources. No need to spend money on CO2 setups.

No matter what type of plants you have all plants have the same needs. Just the amount of each nutrient they use is different. If you can get Erios to pearl without CO2 then you can get just about anything to.


"Pearling" for those of you who don't know is when the oxygen bubbles are actually visible on the plant leaves and stems. This only happens when all the demands for the plant are right on lighting, nutrients, CO2 levels, etc...

Erios for those of you who are unfamiliar with them are like the discus of plants. They're very picky about the conditions they require to grow and propagate in. If you can keep them and propagate them than you can keep just about any plant.

[exv152]

No matter what type of plants you have all plants have the same needs.

Not exactly, but I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[David Rose]

CO2 system for $150? I'm assuming that's without a pH controller or other sophisticated equipment.

I want to convert one of my tanks to planted this year, but honestly, I can't get my head around all the methods and equipment out there or some of our SD threads. It all seems like Greek to me at this point.

Glad you posted your question Mark. Maybe one of these days I'll catch on or just go to That Pet Place and let them talk my ear off and hopefully can show me some of this stuff and oversell me :(

[scottishbloke]

Not intending to tread on anyone's toes here, but I've kept heavily planted, heavily stocked tanks for years without CO2 or even ferts (just 2-3 decent 6700k T5HO bulbs, Fluorite, fish poop), and I traded my excess plants to the LFS by the bagful, including many stem plants. Last summer I tore down such a tank (a 55g) to make a BB for my first discus, and traded almost all my plants for them, keeping small cuttings of some species in a 5g tank. After I moved my discus to a 90g in November, I replanted the 55g and it currently now has about 20 Red Tiger Lilies, over a dozen Aponogentons, some Rotala wallachi, assorted Crypts, Corkscrew Val, Floating Water Sprite, a couple of small Java Ferns, and Pygmy Chain Sword which is multiplying by the day. In 2-3 months I will trade many of these plants for an Eheim Pro III 2075 canister :D:D:D, and let the remainder multiply and grow back again. I do agree that high-light, CO2-enriched tanks will give you the best results and fastest growth, but you can have a great planted tank without these things. Just be realistic about what you grow- don't try to grow a Glossostigma or Riccia carpet in low/medium light with no CO2...

My own experience only, disregard if you feel like it...

Colin

[Sharkbait]

Just be realistic about what you grow- don't try to grow a Glossostigma or Riccia carpet in low/medium light with no CO2...


Cheers.

If I stopped pumping C02 into my tank, half my plants wouldn't look as lush as they do. I'd have an algae outbreak and everything would be out of balance.

Typically in a low-light tank, there will be about 4-5 ppm of C02 created by gas exchange at the surface and even a lesser amount from the fish in the tank. For low-light, this will allow some 'specific' plants to grow slowly as long as they have access to nutrients, commonly found in fertilizers. The more plants, the more need for those nutrients because they all are going to start sucking them up.

So the idea of just stocking more fish that create C02 and waste for plants sounds logical, but runs too much of a liability to me. First of all, you're never going to get to the ideal C02 rate of 20-30ppm for a flourishing planted tank with just the gas exchange of fish alone. Then through the course of this, you have a huge bioload, thus creating more waste because the plants are starting to die off... just be one big mess of poor water quality. And when it comes to discus, I'm under the impression that most of the users here will vouch for lower bioload, more filtration, cleaner water. Plants are a natural filtration and benefit the lives of the fish in the aquarium. They have needs too ;)

Keep it simple. If you're running low-light, at least add minimal ferts and excel (depending on your tank size - it could get even more expensive than C02). Anything larger than a 50 I would definitely pump C02, and look out for higher demanding plants that require more light and are more difficult to grow (those will definitely need C02)

Good luck.

PS - Pearling, by the way, doesn't happen when a plants highest demands are met. Plants can have great growth and never pearl. Pearling occurs when the 02 in the water is saturated through photosynthesis. No more can be dissolved, so they form bubbles on the plants. Higher fish loads, lower lighting, low C02, limit photosynthesis, thus limit high 02 levels, and limit pearling.

[Mark Webb]

Not intending to tread on anyone's toes here, but I've kept heavily planted, heavily stocked tanks for years without CO2 or even ferts (just 2-3 decent 6700k T5HO bulbs, Fluorite, fish poop), and I traded my excess plants to the LFS by the bagful, including many stem plants. Last summer I tore down such a tank (a 55g) to make a BB for my first discus, and traded almost all my plants for them, keeping small cuttings of some species in a 5g tank. After I moved my discus to a 90g in November, I replanted the 55g and it currently now has about 20 Red Tiger Lilies, over a dozen Aponogentons, some Rotala wallachi, assorted Crypts, Corkscrew Val, Floating Water Sprite, a couple of small Java Ferns, and Pygmy Chain Sword which is multiplying by the day. In 2-3 months I will trade many of these plants for an Eheim Pro III 2075 canister :D:D:D, and let the remainder multiply and grow back again. I do agree that high-light, CO2-enriched tanks will give you the best results and fastest growth, but you can have a great planted tank without these things. Just be realistic about what you grow- don't try to grow a Glossostigma or Riccia carpet in low/medium light with no CO2...

My own experience only, disregard if you feel like it...

Colin

Thanks all - very interesting. I intend to go for Crypts, Java, Echinodorus.

Scottishbloke, do you have any images of your tanks without CO²?

[zamboniMan]

Not exactly, but I will agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The amounts they use are the only difference.

Scottishbloke are those your only tanks? What kind of discus do you have?

[exv152]

But if you stock right you'll have more than enough fish for the plants which eliminates the need for CO2...

The amounts they require are different, yes, but here above you say it eliminates the need for co2, that's completely incorrect.

[zamboniMan]

The amounts they require are different, yes, but here above you say it eliminates the need for co2, that's completely incorrect.

Okay after reading my post I can see where I was unclear. It should have said:
But if you stock right you'll have more than enough fish for the plants which eliminates the need for injectedCO2...

My apologies.

Josh