Interesting but sad tale

[Moon]

Last Saturday I lost a tank full of adult discus. All the fish came from Kenny and were about 18 months old. All were over 6" TL and in great shape.
Here's what happened. Saturday morning they were not much interested in food but looked OK. Went out shopping, came home around 3:00 pm and all the fish were floating and lying down. Out of the seven five were dead and two in bad shape. Checked the water for ammonia and nitrites. Both were zero. Removed 90% of the water and filled the tank with fresh water and removed the dead fish with tears in my eyes. My tank is on a drip system with water dripping at 83F. The only different thing I did the previous evening was to put the waste water hose from the RO into this tank. Now, I do this on a regular basis when the RO is running with no problems in the past.
I treated the tank with salt and hoped that the two remaining fish will be OK.
The next night I directed the waste RO hose into a all pleco tank at the lower level of my rack. Next morning all the plecos were dead.
The only deduction I can make is that there must have been a bacteria bloom in the RO system while it was not being used. Can a bacterial bloom kill five adult discus in a matter of 4 hours????
The interesting thing is that I used the RO product water in my WC tank with no problems.
What do you guys think? Is there some means of testing for bacteria?
I am thinking of adding a UV to my RO.

[David Rose]

So sorry for your losses!

[pcsb23]

Heck Joe, that's a shocker, I'm so sorry.

It would be speculation on my part but I don't see why not. I would speculate that somehow a toxin had been formed though.

I've seen bacterial infections cause discus to crash, but not die in 4 hours.

Depending on what has happened a UV may or may not be of use, activated carbon, similar adsorptive material or if you can get them polyfilter (used in dialysis machines) would be a good bet too.

[Elite Aquaria]

Joe,

I am so sorry to hear this news...I am not sure but I would think that something in the RO waste water caused the problem...Again I am saddened when something like this happens...

[brewmaster15]

Joe,
Thats a sad story!:(:(:(
I'm leaning away from bacteria since your RO water is fine.... but I'm wondering if the RO filter filtered out and concentrated a toxin from your tap water into your waste water? Depending on pH even somethings like minerals can be toxic. Are you on city water? or well?

-al

[Harriett]

On man, that is a terrible story. Really sorry for this crash and the losses. I am interested to see what you can figure out from this situation.
Start sterilizing and flushing equipment, right?
Harriett

[Moon]

Joe,
Thats a sad story!:(:(:(
I'm leaning away from bacteria since your RO water is fine.... but I'm wondering if the RO filter filtered out and concentrated a toxin from your tap water into your waste water? Depending on pH even somethings like minerals can be toxic. Are you on city water? or well?

-al

Al
I am on well water and have been for the past 20 years. Nothing like this has ever happened before. I know from now on the RO waste will be waste.

[Moon]

Heck Joe, that's a shocker, I'm so sorry.

It would be speculation on my part but I don't see why not. I would speculate that somehow a toxin had been formed though.

I've seen bacterial infections cause discus to crash, but not die in 4 hours.

Depending on what has happened a UV may or may not be of use, activated carbon, similar adsorptive material or if you can get them polyfilter (used in dialysis machines) would be a good bet too.

Thanks Paul
I had no cause to use activated carbon in the past because I am on well water. But I am seriously thinking of adding it.
I am on a drip system and have no problems with the rest of my tanks. So if it's not bacteria why would the RO waste have toxins?

[pcsb23]

Joe, I wish I had a definitive answer. Mysteries like these are not welcome. Speculating, maybe there was bacteria in the unit and maybe the side effect was toxic, and given it would likely be anaerobic and there would be nitrates present it is a possibility. As I say it's speculation.

[brewmaster15]

Thats a real puzzler Joe...especially since you have done this in the past and had no issue.... Paul may be right then with his speculation. ...or maybe its not a bacteria itself..but the gases that anaerobes make?

Either way... whens the last time you changed out the prefilters,carbon and membranes? Now may be a good time... and see if any foul smells come out when you open it all up.

Really sad to hear these loses.:(:(:(

-al

[Moon]

Thats a real puzzler Joe...especially since you have done this in the past and had no issue.... Paul may be right then with his speculation. ...or maybe its not a bacteria itself..but the gases that anaerobes make?

Either way... whens the last time you changed out the prefilters,carbon and membranes? Now may be a good time... and see if any foul smells come out when you open it all up.

Really sad to hear these loses.:(:(:(

-al

That's a good idea Al. I happen to have some replacements handy.

[Eddie]

Man Joe, really sorry to hear about the loss.

Take care,

Eddie

[Moon]

Man Joe, really sorry to hear about the loss.

Take care,

Eddie

Thanks Eddie. I am looking forward to getting some new stock and make a fresh start.

[Scribbles]

How horrible! I'm very sorry for your losses.

Chris

[Tito]

I lost one fish the other day and I was crushed.

I can't imagine a whole tank of full grown fish.

Sorry to hear it.

[tcmemphisbbq]

Man that is aweful - very sorry to hear about your fish

[phatdave]

That SUCKS!!!

I don't know anything about Reverse Osmosis gizmos but do you clean them in any way? Like internally ?

My wife once cleaned her 80 Gal .inside ,that was home to among other things, 4 Huge wild Altum angels,with an antibacterial scrub pad. Well I'm sure you can guess the outcome.

Sorry to hear about your fish!


Dave

[Jhhnn]

That's a very sad story, a real bummer.

Speculating, I'd suggest that you may have had an anaerobic bacterial bloom in the RO unit, with them feeding on whatever extracted organics were in there. Some anaerobes produce very potent toxins, poisoning your fish.

Backflushing the unit before using it would probably be a good idea if it's been idle for any length of time... particularly if the wastewater is going into any tank...

[jessbullock]

Oh Joe,
That must have been devastating.

Sorry for your loss and frustration.

See you soon,
Jess

[Moon]

Thank you all for your messages. I'm going to clean out the RO filters and add a carbon unit.
I'm gonna get some new stock and start again.

[Disgirl]

Best of luck with your new fish and starting over. It is all part of our hobby. So sorry about the ones you lost :(.
Barb

[DavidH]

Hey Joe, sorry to hear about your losses and since you are on well water this probably doesn't help you. A few years back my RO system was producing a lot of nitrites in the waste water, seems like since I had ammonia in my tap my filters cycled and thus was producing a crap load of nitrites in the waste water.
All the best and good luck in the future, Dave.

[Chad Adams]

Joe,
Just read of your loss. I'm so sorry to hear. Let's talk again
before I come up to Buffalo. I'll donate some of the fry we were
talking about. No Charge.:)
Chad

[sailboat]

Chad - Thats a real nice thing to do.

[ashaysathe]

Terrible loss Joe. WOW.

[Moon]

Joe,
Just read of your loss. I'm so sorry to hear. Let's talk again
before I come up to Buffalo. I'll donate some of the fry we were
talking about. No Charge.:)
Chad

Chad
Thanks. That's very kind of you.
Joe

[Chad Adams]

Chad - Thats a real nice thing to do.


Chad
Thanks. That's very kind of you.
Joe

Hey Guys, It's absolutely no problem. I'm not looking at getting rich on discus.
I've been blessed with prolific discus. I'll always have discus. The important thing is we take care of one another when we are able to.
Chad

[Karlos5000]

It is important for the RO membranes to be exposed to only prefiltered water. Although not always necessary, a series of carbon block filters prior to the RO unit will not only trap toxins (heavy metals in well water) but they will also act a a mechanical filter for microscopic debris that will reduce the efficiency of the RO.
The waste water from an RO is usually harmless (if it was prefiltered) because it should really only contain the minerals that did not move accross the membrane. Many people use it safely to add back a little Gh to the water.

I am on city water and am no expert about the common things present in well water in your area, but it is possible that the RO waste line contained more of whatever is bad for the fish now that the membrane had been used for awhile without prefilters.

I think it would be wise to use a 10, 5, then 1 micron filter prior to the RO in the future and replace you RO membrane with a new one.

Sorry to hear about your fish!

[Moon]

It is important for the RO membranes to be exposed to only prefiltered water. Although not always necessary, a series of carbon block filters prior to the RO unit will not only trap toxins (heavy metals in well water) but they will also act a a mechanical filter for microscopic debris that will reduce the efficiency of the RO.
The waste water from an RO is usually harmless (if it was prefiltered) because it should really only contain the minerals that did not move accross the membrane. Many people use it safely to add back a little Gh to the water.

I am on city water and am no expert about the common things present in well water in your area, but it is possible that the RO waste line contained more of whatever is bad for the fish now that the membrane had been used for awhile without prefilters.

I think it would be wise to use a 10, 5, then 1 micron filter prior to the RO in the future and replace you RO membrane with a new one.

Sorry to hear about your fish!

I have done as you suggest. Three prefilters and a new RO membrane. The waste now goes down the drain.

[Sameen]

I think the waste water among other mineral contained Chlorine from tap water. So i think adding dechlorinator when using RO waste would be safer. And i once had HITH disease for using the same vaccuum hose to take water from reserve tank to the breeding tank as the one i used to clean display tank gravel. So the hose was dirty and after it dried out and again got wet it had some kind of disease grownth on it. I should not have used this hose to transfer fresh water to the breeding tank. It is ok however to use same hose to move tap water to reserve as tap water contain chlorine and can kill the disease. But dechlorinated water is vulnerable to the dirt and germ in the hose.

[discolicious]

So sorry about your loss Joe... I had a similar thing happen (not with my RO unit) but lost 4 of 5 adult fish overnight. It's a blow when we try to do everything we can to make the water best for our fish and then something completely unexpected happens. I'm wondering if hydrogen sulfide was the culprit?

[Moon]

I'm still not quite sure of the cause for the disaster. I now send the RO waste to the drain and just use the product water for the breeders.