Please Help!

[jaykne]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Thier gills are flared out, opening their mouths really wide and snapping them open and shut really hard and holding mouths open like something stuck in it, snapping thier heads to the side really hard. Started today always be very heathy



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Symptoms obove and eating very little, look healthy other than this




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Did a 90% water change, and added one tablespoon of salt for every 10gals of water no change



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

55gal, 6 fish all 5" to 51/2" and still growing


5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Change 75 to 90% almost everyday, 8 months, bare bottom don't age my water, have another tank next to it with 5 adult fish did water change on them this morning also they are all fine


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp ___86__

- ph _7.8____

- ammonia reading __none__

- nitrite reading __none__

- nitrate reading __10__

- well water __no__

- municipal water __yes__

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No always very healthy and growing like weeds don't understand went to feed them today this evening and saw all of them doing this.

[Eddie]

Well Larry, it definitely sounds like a gill irritation of some sort. I'd up the salt to total 3 tbsp/10 gallons, bring the temp down to 82F and as always, adequate air.

See how this goes after 24 hours. If this doesn't help, you may need to treat for gill flukes/gill worms. Many different chemicals to treat this so you would have to decide on the lesser of all the evils. My choice is Anti-Fluke life bearer but some use others. The salt may do the trick so you may not need to treat at all.

All the best and keep us updated,

Eddie

[jaykne]

Well Larry, it definitely sounds like a gill irritation of some sort. I'd up the salt to total 3 tbsp/10 gallons, bring the temp down to 82F and as always, adequate air.

See how this goes after 24 hours. If this doesn't help, you may need to treat for gill flukes/gill worms. Many different chemicals to treat this so you would have to decide on the lesser of all the evils. My choice is Anti-Fluke life bearer but some use others. The salt may do the trick so you may not need to treat at all.

All the best and keep us updated,

Eddie

Thanks Eddie, ya I figured something to do with thier gills just really shocked at how it came on so fast they have never shown any symtoms of gill flukes. What do you think about hitting them with PP if the doing the salt for 24 hours doesn't help? It would take me a couple days to get ahold of Anti-Fluke, I also have prazi on hand. Just don't want to lose them they act really bad.

[pcsb23]

With gill inflamations I find it is better to act quickly if possible. If you have PP on hand then use that at 2 ppm. Be prepared for the fish to get stresed and watch them carefully if they get over stressed.

[jaykne]

Did like Eddie was saying and added more salt last night, seemed to make it a little better but got bad again today so did treatment with PP still same. Don't understand they were perfectly healthy the day before and never really had any problems with them. I have checked everything with the water and my other tanks are in same water. This is really wierd, the biggest heathest fish is the wost now not eating and just sitting up in the corner would kill me if I lost these guys anyone have any idea what this is, and what I should do please help.

[David Rose]

Did you make any changes to the tank or your water change routine? Would it be possible for you to post some pictures? If you need any help with pics, PM me.

Sometimes with PP treatments, it can take a day or so for them to bounce back.

[Eddie]

Larry, if you did salt, then PP....it can be pretty harsh on the fish and gills. Give a few days of recovery, clean water and good air. Generally when something is affecting the gills, the fish is not absorbing oxygen efficiently and can remain at the surface. Watch for secondary infection but shouldnt be a problem. Just make sure, temp is at 82F and extra air.


Eddie

[jaykne]

Larry, if you did salt, then PP....it can be pretty harsh on the fish and gills. Give a few days of recovery, clean water and good air. Generally when something is affecting the gills, the fish is not absorbing oxygen efficiently and can remain at the surface. Watch for secondary infection but shouldnt be a problem. Just make sure, temp is at 82F and extra air.


Eddie

Ya Eddie got temp at 82 and lots of air, but I did put more salt in water after water change you think I should do another water change to get salt out or wait till morning. Only one hanging in top corner.

[Eddie]

Ya Eddie got temp at 82 and lots of air, but I did put more salt in water after water change you think I should do another water change to get salt out or wait till morning. Only one hanging in top corner.

You should be fine, let the fish overnight, do a change tomorrow. Sometimes changing too much water is bad, believe it or not. The minute differences in water parameters can stress the fish even more. I think allowing the fish time to settle and keeping things stable as they are now, will help.

All the best Larry,

Eddie

[jaykne]

You should be fine, let the fish overnight, do a change tomorrow. Sometimes changing too much water is bad, believe it or not. The minute differences in water parameters can stress the fish even more. I think allowing the fish time to settle and keeping things stable as they are now, will help.

All the best Larry,

Eddie

OK Eddie I will do that, ya I think they do need a break after all they have been through. I am just racking my brain trying to figure out what this could be really wierd been reading through every book I have today and can't find anything that matches up. Thanks Eddie and everyone who has repleyed I will keep you updated. Larry

[Eddie]

OK Eddie I will do that, ya I think they do need a break after all they have been through. I am just racking my brain trying to figure out what this could be really wierd been reading through every book I have today and can't find anything that matches up. Thanks Eddie and everyone who has repleyed I will keep you updated. Larry

Anytime Larry, all the best and keep us updated!

Eddie

[jaykne]

I lost the first one in the middle of the night and the rest seem to be declining, I took the fish I lost to a friends house this morning he checked with a microscope for gill flukes and other paracites could not find anything he said as far as he can see the fish was clean and in good condition. I am so upset right now been up all night, and really don't know what to do next, I do everything I can to make sure these guys get the best care like my kids. I am waiting now for a call from water company see if they are doing anything different even though my other fish tanks are fine. Thanks guys for your help if anyone can think of anything please let me know. Larry

[David Rose]

Larry, send Al, Paul or Eddie a PM so they see your message faster than perhaps getting through their reading of threads.

So sorry for your loss bud! Hopefully you can get some advice and see improvement soon!

[pcsb23]

Scoping a fish after it has pased won't reveal any external parasites, they will scoot for a new host ....

Sorry you lost it, but if you can get your friend round with hos scope and check the others it may help.

Have you pp'd them?

[jaykne]

Scoping a fish after it has pased won't reveal any external parasites, they will scoot for a new host ....

Sorry you lost it, but if you can get your friend round with hos scope and check the others it may help.

Have you pp'd them?

Yes I did give them a 4 hour dose of PP did not help really don't understand, did take scapings about an hour ago on live fish he can't find anything, he has done it on his own fish and knows what to look for. He breeds discus and has had discus for 20 years even was into wilds for a long time and he can't figure it out. His best guess was something in the water but said all the fish should be affected also. Thanks for your help, Larry

[Eddie]

It is very strange for you to have gone so long and then this occurs. Do you filter your water through Activated Carbon at all?

Eddie

[jaykne]

It is very strange for you to have gone so long and then this occurs. Do you filter your water through Activated Carbon at all?

Eddie

No I don't use carbon, I know what you are saying nothing has changed and never had any problems, and I take very good care of them don't understand, and what is really strange is how fast, with no clear cut symtoms.

[Eddie]

No I don't use carbon, I know what you are saying nothing has changed and never had any problems, and I take very good care of them don't understand, and what is really strange is how fast, with no clear cut symtoms.

This is why I am assuming that it may be chemical. Try filtering your water through AC and see if the fish change pace. Toxins in the water can also effect the gills/breathing.

Also, have you done water changes on the other tanks and are they okay?


Eddie

[David Rose]

Larry's Pics:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/179.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/181.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/dlr1961_photos/185.jpg

[Eddie]

They dont look bad at all. If they were suffering from parasite/bacteria, they would look worse. Water is my assumption, or something in the tank leaking toxins. Have you checked your heater, to see if its cracked?

The fish look great so its strange

Eddie

[jaykne]

They dont look bad at all. If they were suffering from parasite/bacteria, they would look worse. Water is my assumption, or something in the tank leaking toxins. Have you checked your heater, to see if its cracked?

The fish look great so its strange

Eddie

Ya this is what is so srange they look fine but if you were to watch them you would see, the one that I lost last night just started rolling and about half hour later that was it. The heater has a hard plastic cover can't crack, I did do water changes on all my tanks today the other tanks are fine. Like I said I can't see what it could be other than water, I will filter with active carbon right now and put a new heater in the tank just in case. Thanks again Eddie and thanks David for posting the pics for me don't know what I would do without the people on here. I will update you in a little while after carbon has gone for a while, Larry.

[David Rose]

Fingers crossed that the AC and water change did the trick!

[jaykne]

I am watching them, so far they have not declined any more, they are still doing the same things they were before but not any worse which is a plus as fast as they have been going. I am going to go to bed tonight and hope for the best but I'm sure I will be waking up all night to check on them. I will give an update in the morning, thanks guys, Larry.

[MadAnthony]

How often do you test your PH levels? Or, is 7.8 normal for you?

How do you treat your city water when doing wc's?

Might be worth a call to your water co to see if they have been treating the supply.

Sure am sorry:confused:

[jaykne]

How often do you test your PH levels? Or, is 7.8 normal for you?

How do you treat your city water when doing wc's?

Might be worth a call to your water co to see if they have been treating the supply.

Sure am sorry:confused:

I have checked the PH and everything else under the sun, I use prime never had any problems. Talked to water treatmeant yesturday they are doing nothing differt to the water, Brent the guy that works in the lab at the water treatment plant is a friend, he even came this morning and took water samples out of my tap everything is fine.

[jaykne]

Well they are getting worse I can't give up on them but not sure what to do next. I know this is not anything external seems like it has to be something in the water but can't see what it could be and if it is it should affect the other tanks. I see no symtoms of anything internal either but I am starting to think that is the next step, I don't know. Eddie or anyone if you have any recomendations please let me know I know this is very strange and very hard to figure out makes no sense. Thanks Larry.

[Ronald]

Hi Larry,
Is that the tank which had that one fish with the sleimy poop every now and then?

Regards,
Ronald

[Eddie]

Larry, what is the status of the fish?


Eddie

[Ronald]

Hi Eddie,
Larry can not answer right now. They have completed the addition to his haus and in the process cut the cable line. He said it should be fixed sometime on monday.

Regards,
Ronald

[rickztahone]

Hi Eddie,
Larry can not answer right now. They have completed the addition to his haus and in the process cut the cable line. He said it should be fixed sometime on monday.

Regards,
Ronald

wow, he is having some luck. i hope everything turns out for the better.

[moik]

Could this be some irriatant that the air-pump is putting through the tank????? Strong Fumes,cigarette smoke and Etc...Water seems fine from all the prvious posts.. possibly bacterial or fungal?????

[David Rose]

Hi Eddie,
Larry can not answer right now. They have completed the addition to his haus and in the process cut the cable line. He said it should be fixed sometime on monday.

Regards,
Ronald

I cut mine last year with the hedge trimmers. One of those rare times when Radio Shack was a big help to get the coaxial male/female ends. Now they don't even need to be crimped, they just twist on after you trim back the casing a bit so the wire is exposed enough to insert to the right distance....NICE.

[jaykne]

Thanks for all your help guys, and thanks to my good friend Ron sorry I did not contact you from the start our conversations have helped allot I hope someday to even have half the knowlege you have about discus.

I did not think to mention I was having work done to my house a new bedroom and bath that is handicapped accessible, due to the injuries I suffered in the military getting worse, that is why I lost my internet closing everything up and they cut my internet connection. I had thought about maybe stuff in the air hurting my fish but didn't think it would be possible, and Ron has seen where the addition is being added and how my tanks are set up and he aggree's.

Since I my last update I did another PP treatment this did seem to help a little but they are still not eating and doing the same things as from the start and not to much of and interest in food so I am just giving them a rest and see what happens. Thanks everyone, Larry.

[Eddie]

If the fish still look like they did in the pictures Larry, I wouldn't be doing anything. They look perfectly fine in the pictures. What seems to be going on with them, when they start to degrade?


Eddie

[jaykne]

If the fish still look like they did in the pictures Larry, I wouldn't be doing anything. They look perfectly fine in the pictures. What seems to be going on with them, when they start to degrade?


Eddie

They are still doing the same things as they were in the start, plus they are not eating anymore and if I do nothing the start to go to the to and lose there balane the same thing the one that died did. They look fine in pictures but they are not something is killing them, I wish I knew how to take a video so you could see what they are doing. Larry

[Eddie]

They are still doing the same things as they were in the start, plus they are not eating anymore and if I do nothing the start to go to the to and lose there balane the same thing the one that died did. They look fine in pictures but they are not something is killing them, I wish I knew how to take a video so you could see what they are doing. Larry

Thats so strange that there are no external physical defects. The fish look perfect and then just die. It has to be something toxic, it has to be. Any parasite/bacteria has SOME symptoms. Your fish look perfect, bright red eyes, fins fully spread, great color. I wouldn't hit them with anymore PP. Spitting and shaking there heads points to something affecting their gills. I am at a total loss. :confused:

Eddie

[Eddie]

You may need to try Oxolinic Acid Powder.

[seanyuki]

Great idea Eddie.....that product is avaiable at Fishpharmacy


http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products3.html#O




You may need to try Oxolinic Acid Powder.

[Eddie]

Great idea Eddie.....that product is avaiable at Fishpharmacy


http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products3.html#O

4FishStuff.com also has it available for a slightly cheaper price.

http://www.4fishstuff.com/index.php?cPath=61&sort=3a&page=3


HTH

Eddie

[MadAnthony]

Just thinking out loud …. So something damaged their gills ….. They are not getting better, or worse, so damage done.

They have stopped eating. How about bring the heat back up to 88 to get their metabolism going again and add some extra aeration?

[jaykne]

Thats so strange that there are no external physical defects. The fish look perfect and then just die. It has to be something toxic, it has to be. Any parasite/bacteria has SOME symptoms. Your fish look perfect, bright red eyes, fins fully spread, great color. I wouldn't hit them with anymore PP. Spitting and shaking there heads points to something affecting their gills. I am at a total loss. :confused:

Eddie

Hey Eddie thats what I have been saying from the start it is very strange and can't figure out what is going on they look fine but these symtoms and then they just get worse. I am no expert on treating sick discus but I have breed and and raised fish since I was a kid and have treated allot of problems, have tons of books and this has got me at a loss, but I am not the type to just give in so doing everything I can. I don't know, My friend Ron will be coming tomorrow so he can look at them and see what he thinks. But thank you and everyone who has tried to help just have to see what happens. Larry

[Eddie]

Hey Eddie thats what I have been saying from the start it is very strange and can't figure out what is going on they look fine but these symtoms and then they just get worse. I am no expert on treating sick discus but I have breed and and raised fish since I was a kid and have treated allot of problems, have tons of books and this has got me at a loss, but I am not the type to just give in so doing everything I can. I don't know, My friend Ron will be coming tomorrow so he can look at them and see what he thinks. But thank you and everyone who has tried to help just have to see what happens. Larry

What types of things are in the tank? Rocks, flower pots, bricks? Anything at all?


Eddie

[moik]

Please explain why you are choosing this med.??? what is the reason for this med. and what does this treat??
You may need to try Oxolinic Acid Powder.

[Eddie]

Please explain why you are choosing this med.??? what is the reason for this med. and what does this treat??

Bacteria treatment, treat when fish are dying for no apparent reason and when other antibiotics are ineffective.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products3.html#O

Eddie

[jaykne]

Hey Eddie, the only thing in the tank is 2 sponge filters, heater, and intake for HOB filters that is it. I agree with you completly thought it was something toxic from the start but can't figure out what and why does it not affect the tank right next to it. It can't be the water, the door to the new addition to my house was last thing they did my fish were already sick, plus anything airborne should affect the tank next to it. I am starting to think something got in that tank some how and has already done its damage to my fish and probably nothing will help, I think the best thing I can do at this point is leave the lights out and let them rest for a couple more days and just hope for the best. If they make it the next couple days then I will try to treat with an antibiotic but almost sure that is not the case. Like I said my friend Ron will be here today maybe he can think of something when he can see what they do. But thanks for everyones help and I will just keep hoping, like I said put allot of care in these guys and would really hurt to lose them, Larry.

[Eddie]

I hear you Larry, sounds like a accurate assumption of what may have happened. Hopefully you can get it figured out.

Take care and best of luck!


Eddie

[jaykne]

Well just to give everyone an update I have come to the conclution that something toxic got in the water really don't know how but looks like something that did perminate damage lost another one and the others seem to be on the same path.Not giving up, but I really don't think there is anything more that can be done, just makes me so sick I can't work do to my injuries in the military so these guys are all I have to do, and when you put that much time and effort in them you really get attached, they are like my kids. But thanks again for everyone that tried to help, just have to start saving up for some more. Larry

[Eddie]

Very very sorry to hear Larry. At least when we know what we are fighting, we can fight it the best way possible but when fish are dying and look perfectly fine, I wouldn't know what to do besides, give them fresh clean water every day. I wish I could be of more help my friend.

Take care

Eddie

[jaykne]

Very very sorry to hear Larry. At least when we know what we are fighting, we can fight it the best way possible but when fish are dying and look perfectly fine, I wouldn't know what to do besides, give them fresh clean water every day. I wish I could be of more help my friend.

Take care

Eddie

Hey Eddie you have done all you can and I thank you so much for that, this is just one of those things. I think you are right all I can do is provide them water changes and best care I can.

I want to say you are a vauble asset to this site, when it comes to treating sick fish you are almost right up there with the best, and seems like when someone has a problem you are there. There are allot of great people on here, but just want to say a special thanks to you, there are allot of people that would have dead discus without your help, and you have been a friend since I joined this site, Thanks Eddie.

[Eddie]

Thanks Larry, really appreciate it. It means alot really. I just strive to help others have a wonderful experience in their discus keeping. I know I've had my share of issues arise and every time someones else does, I'd like to help get them through it. People were always there to help me and give me support, so it is a two-way road.


Take care Larry and hope things have a turn for the better!

Eddie