Flukes, anyone have success?

[scottthomas]

I have had a mild problem with flukes for years it seems. Whenever I think they are gone ... well there they are again. I am tired of keeping one tank of discus in quarantine for 3 years now, afraid to spread flukes to my other tanks. I have tried formalin, Quick Cure, salt bath and then into a sterile tank, and Prazi. Anyone out there had success in completely getting rid of these pests? My fish are healthy but whenever I try to breed them the fry have problems. I have kept them seperate from my other stock which, under microscope, or from observation, dont show signs of flukes.

[yim11]

Harriett has a great write up in this post:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showpost.php?p=593409&postcount=5 that might help and Jerry just posted a potential new treatment here:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=76928.

HTHs,
-jim

[scottthomas]

Thanks, I did read the minnfin treatment post. I have not used pp and for some reason have been leary to do so . I guess if I want to get rid of them I will have to bite the bullet. So far, it is the only method I have read about where people claim they have gotten rid of flukes for any period of time.

[Eddie]

Anti-fluke, the best...hands down. Better than Formalin or PP

Eddie

[moik]

Is it anti-fluke lifebearer??? what dose you use??
Anti-fluke, the best...hands down. Better than Formalin or PP

Eddie

[Eddie]

Is it anti-fluke lifebearer??? what dose you use??

Yup, Life Bearer. The amount recommended on the bottle, 1 drop per gallon. ;)

Can't even remember that last time my fish had flukes. :D

[scottthomas]

I think Ill try the anti fluke first, before I try PP

[rickztahone]

Yup, Life Bearer. The amount recommended on the bottle, 1 drop per gallon. ;)

Can't even remember that last time my fish had flukes. :D

i've heard a couple people saying that the Life Bearer is a little harsh on the fish, any truth to that Eddie? can it be used with dither fish and scaleless fish? plants?

[Eddie]

i've heard a couple people saying that the Life Bearer is a little harsh on the fish, any truth to that Eddie? can it be used with dither fish and scaleless fish? plants?

You can use it with plants but not tetras or scaleless fish. I've used it with plecos before but I didn't care if they died or not and they didn't die. And this was at double the dose. Bottle recommends another dose after 24 hours, so this is total of 2 drops per gallon.


About the harshness, it can be harsh on the fish. They will go off food, turn pale, eyes turn dark (lose redness), and the fish can become skittish.

Its take a few days for them to return to normal. Also, Life Bearer (trichlorfon) is extremely toxic to humans. It can be absorbed in through the skin VERY easy so its best to not touch the tank water at all.


Eddie

[Ben75]

Good info Eddie, you are right about effects on the fish i have noticed the same, however i didn't know about the dangers to humans, i will be more carefull in the future. I have had a run of flukes in about 50% of my tanks over the last few days. i am using the tablet form of trichorfon by aquarium science. after 24hrs i noticed the tanks that had visible flukes on fish went quite cloudy, anyone have the same thing happen when they treat with this drug?
Regards,

[pcsb23]

The best results I have had have been using prazinquantel in the pure form. For some reason it is terrifyingly expensive in the UK. Not in any of so called easy to use formats like praazi pro, truth is I have never had much success using prazi pro. Dissolved in DMSO and used for an extended time has always worked for me.

I have heard speculation that there are some super flukes out there that are resistant to prazinquantel, not come across any myself and I hope that it is only speculation.

[Eddie]

Good info Eddie, you are right about effects on the fish i have noticed the same, however i didn't know about the dangers to humans, i will be more carefull in the future. I have had a run of flukes in about 50% of my tanks over the last few days. i am using the tablet form of trichorfon by aquarium science. after 24hrs i noticed the tanks that had visible flukes on fish went quite cloudy, anyone have the same thing happen when they treat with this drug?
Regards,

Hey there Ben, sorry to hear about the flukes. I never experienced any cloudiness from using trichlorfon. There are a few things that can effect trichlorfon, like temperature and light.


Eddie

[wgtaylor]

The best results I have had have been using prazinquantel in the pure form. For some reason it is terrifyingly expensive in the UK. Not in any of so called easy to use formats like praazi pro, truth is I have never had much success using prazi pro. Dissolved in DMSO and used for an extended time has always worked for me.

I have heard speculation that there are some super flukes out there that are resistant to prazinquantel, not come across any myself and I hope that it is only speculation.

Hey Paul,
How much DMSO are you using to dissolve the prazi powder? Measured amount or just enough to liquefy?
Thanks, Bill

[pcsb23]

Hey Paul,
How much DMSO are you using to dissolve the prazi powder? Measured amount or just enough to liquefy?
Thanks, BillUse just enough to get a liquid.

[scottthomas]

Thanks for al the great ideas. Eddie, have you seen any flukes since treating with antifluke? I thought I had success using Prazi in the pure form as Paul suggested. No more scratching etc. from my adults. However, they spawned and some of the fry started breathing from one gill and died. I cut a piece of gill and looked under scope-a bunch of those ugly critters. They are hard to destroy IMO.

[moik]

I use anti-fluke too,but never seen the symptoms you are explaining though...That is why I asked your dosing method..I wonder why my fish did not show symptoms like yours did???
Hey there Ben, sorry to hear about the flukes. I never experienced any cloudiness from using trichlorfon. There are a few things that can effect trichlorfon, like temperature and light.


Eddie

[scottthomas]

Where did you buy anti-fluke anyone?

[moik]

I buy it from my LFS,,they special order it when I needed it..Now they stock it.."Google" it and buy from your the information you find..
Where did you buy anti-fluke anyone?

[wgtaylor]

Use just enough to get a liquid.

Thanks Paul
There have been mixed successes with prazi powder but not everyone uses it dissolved with DMSO.
DMSO not only dissolves the prazi but it is also used as a carrier to deliver medicines through tissue, possibly making prazi more effective.
Wikipedia has some good info on DMSO in the fourth paragraph under Medicine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide

May have to try anti-fluke too, sounds effective.
Bill

[moik]

Never had real good results with any Prazi treatments..IMO is too exspensive for the results..Anti-fluke is way cheaper with superior results IMO..Prazi has it place for other treatments IMO..As far as the topic being flukes,,I would have to say Anti-fluke is better ..It is up to the individual to form their own opinions..
Thanks Paul
There have been mixed successes with prazi powder but not everyone uses it dissolved with DMSO.
DMSO not only dissolves the prazi but it is also used as a carrier to deliver medicines through tissue, possibly making prazi more effective.
Wikipedia has some good info on DMSO in the fourth paragraph under Medicine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide

May have to try anti-fluke too, sounds effective.
Bill

[scottthomas]

Thanks for the information. You are all a great help!

[smiley]

Prazi has worked for me...the tank has gone fluke free...FINALLY!!!

[scottthomas]

Anyone know if anti fluke can/should be used on 2 inch juvies?

[Eddie]

Anyone know if anti fluke can/should be used on 2 inch juvies?

Rod has used Trichlorfon with fry but not sure what brand he uses. I have used it on juveniles without any problems at all.

Eddie

[scottthomas]

I just dosed anti-fluke (contains trichlorfon) to my 50 gallon that has a recurring fluke problem. Directions on the bottle just say how much (1drop/gal) to dose, nothing more. Is this a one day treatment? Do I retreat? Is it light sensitive? Do I need to lower or raise temp for best results? Any help appreciated.

[David Rose]

http://www.aq-products.com/APpropond/antifluke.htm

[scottthomas]

Thanks David,

Looks to be the same stuff I guess. The bottle I purchased says: AP ANTI-FLUKE (but does not say life bearer) ingrediants trichloromethyl hydroxy dimethyl. After a few hours I can actually see that the fish are not stressed and actually seem to be breathing better, as if has relieved some of their gill discomfort.

[joanr]

That is their pond product, the AP Pro link takes you to a page that shows the bottle with Life Bearer on it. Don't know if they are different. They also make Clout, no wonder it works so well. They even have a product called Euthanize for when their products don't work.

[scottthomas]

They even have a product called Euthanize for when their products don't work.

:scared: Hope I wont need that one lol

[joanr]

Nah, I've used a lot of their products over the years and never had any problems with it. I will pull my bio-sponges and bio-balls from the HOB's and put them in a bucket with air and heat etc., and just put two new sponges in the HOBs since I've found that their Clout and the Life Bearer take a toll on the bio filter. Since it's usually a 24 -48 hr treatment with w/c's no need to worry about wq. just dose some extra Prime.

[kaceyo]

Scott
Does your bottle of Anti-Fluke call for 10 drops (or one capfull) per gallon? I bought a bottle of AP Anti-Fluke that didn't say Lifebearer on it and those were the directions. Same med but much more diluted. I won't make that mistake again.

Kacey

[scottthomas]

Yes, that is what I have. It is a waste of time you think? I paid only 2.99 a bottle. Eddie and others said they had success with anti-fluke. Maybe not this type?

[David Rose]

The same company, I believe, making different concentrations of the same med. I've seen a variety of different labels as well for this same product. Sometimes, the pond form is the better buy given it tends to be more concentrated and that's good if you need a ton. The amount will differ depending. In short, you should be just fine. :)

[kaceyo]

Not a waste of time at all. It will work just as well but it's more expensive due to it's being so diluted.

Kacey

[yogi]

This link might be the product you have. http://www.aq-products.com/APpro/antifluke.htm

[ikevi]

So does anyone know of a good online store that have the 16 oz containers?

[Jhhnn]

I had what I thought was a case of flukes last June. I read up pretty hard on the subject. I didn't have a microscope at the time. Part of what I learned is that many aquarium flukes are egg-layers, which makes them difficult to eradicate, because most meds won't kill the eggs. I also learned that fluke eggs apparently hatch in 4 days or so at aquarium temps, taking much longer at pond temps, particularly winter temps. It also takes flukes more than 4 days to mature to the egg laying stage.

I tried prazipro, which seemed to be working, but had very limited effectiveness. That confirmed my belief that flukes were my problem, and also established that they were resistant to prazi.

I didn't know about anti fluke lifebearer at the time, but I'd discovered thru the literature that trichlorphon was effective against flukes. I found that ingredient in Clout, along with victoria green and metro. Mindful of the fluke lifecycle, I dosed three times at lights out- thursday, monday, and again on the following friday, iirc. Trichlorphon breaks down after just a few hours in the water, but I used carbon in a box filter on the in-between days and after the last treatment, just to get rid of the other ingredients, along with my usual 50% daily water changes. I also scrubbed the medicated water up under the aquarium rim each time. I cleaned the buckets, siphons and nets in a bleach solution each time. The fish tolerated it well, and my biofilter wasn't hammered.

It worked. I've had no fluke-like symptoms since then.

I can't speak to the effect of Clout on other kinds of fish or plants, because I don't have any...

[Eddie]

So does anyone know of a good online store that have the 16 oz containers?

Hard to find the 16 oz containers, the last time I bought some, just picked up 4 ea 4 oz containers. ;)


Eddie

[Eddie]

Thanks David,

Looks to be the same stuff I guess. The bottle I purchased says: AP ANTI-FLUKE (but does not say life bearer) ingrediants trichloromethyl hydroxy dimethyl. After a few hours I can actually see that the fish are not stressed and actually seem to be breathing better, as if has relieved some of their gill discomfort.

Thats the stuff Scott, and that is the technical name for Trichlorfon. Told you it works. :D

[Harriett]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showpo...09&postcount=5

I wrote this treatment protocol up and it was already mentioned in post #2 here. I know this is a tough issue to be successful with. I would like to encourage you to read the method I used--I had aleady treated carefully twice and they still had come back...these were a dozen wonderful 3 month old juvies and I wanted to just end the saga. I asked Andrew Soh for help and everything I wrote up was specifically what and how he directed me to aproach it. I am now 6 months or so post Andrew's treatments and this group of fish have shown zero reinfestations or symptoms of flukes--they are clean. They have grown like mad. It was a fair amount of work AND IT WORKED COMPLETELY.
Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.
Best regards,
Harriett

[moik]

The link is not working..

[Spardas]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=75687

Go to post #5.

[scottthomas]

I wrote this treatment protocol up and it was already mentioned in post #2 here. I know this is a tough issue to be successful with. I would like to encourage you to read the method I used--I had aleady treated carefully twice and they still had come back...these were a dozen wonderful 3 month old juvies and I wanted to just end the saga. I asked Andrew Soh for help and everything I wrote up was specifically what and how he directed me to aproach it. I am now 6 months or so post Andrew's treatments and this group of fish have shown zero reinfestations or symptoms of flukes--they are clean. They have grown like mad. It was a fair amount of work AND IT WORKED COMPLETELY.
Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.
Best regards,
Harriett

Thank you for that great write up. I will certainly consider your method if I continue to have problems with flukes. It is comforting to hear that some have had success eradicating these pests. I believe many more have problems with flukes and are unaware because they have not used a microscope to confirm.

[Eddie]

Thank you for that great write up. I will certainly consider your method if I continue to have problems with flukes. It is comforting to hear that some have had success eradicating these pests. I believe many more have problems with flukes and are unaware because they have not used a microscope to confirm.

Microscope is the way to go! Like I mentioned Scott, Anti-Fluke is "The One". ;)

[scottthomas]

So Far so Good. I was losing 2-3 fry per day. I dosed yesterday and today, all the fry are eating, no darkness, and no flared gills, no deaths. I have not looked under the scope yet. I will in a few days. I am thinking of doing a wc and then after skipping a day, redosing for a total of 6 days and 3 doses. Trying to catch hatching eggs. What do you think? Thanks for the advice Eddie!

[Eddie]

So Far so Good. I was losing 2-3 fry per day. I dosed yesterday and today, all the fry are eating, no darkness, and no flared gills, no deaths. I have not looked under the scope yet. I will in a few days. I am thinking of doing a wc and then after skipping a day, redosing for a total of 6 days and 3 doses. Trying to catch hatching eggs. What do you think? Thanks for the advice Eddie!

Anytime Bro, thats what I did in the past. Every 6 days, 24 hour treatment for a series of 3 treatments, so 18 days total. Haven't had a fluke in ages. ;)

Take care,

Eddie

[Jhhnn]

This discussion, and others, has convinced me that there are a few key concepts to keep in mind. First, that the initial treatment will have a dramatic effect if the chosen med is truly effective against the target fluke population. Also that multiple treatments, mindful of the fluke lifecycle, will be required for complete eradication. The usual meds won't kill their eggs, so it's very important to get the timing right, to kill emerged parasites before they reach the egg laying stage. If the interval is too short, unhatched eggs remain. If it's too long, emeged flukes reach maturity and lay more eggs before the next dose is administered.

Flukes are nasty little egg-laying machines, producing upwards of 20 eggs/hr according to some sources. Under aquarium conditions, populations can grow explosively. Very good tank maintenance, frequent bottom-siphoning, will slow the rate of population growth to something where the hobbyist has time to recognize what's happening and take corrective action before all their fish perish...

[joanr]

John, I think the 3 stage Clout or LifeBearer treatment is very effective for a normal load of flukes and eggs. I'd hate to have to go to some of the extremes like Harriet did following Andrew's plan, man that sounded like a lot of hard work....but if it gets bad enough then it would be necessary. I don't plan on letting Flukes get that out of hand, ever...I hate the thought of them, and the worms.

[Harriett]

Hi, Joan, just wanted to clarify: when I got these juvies, they were 5 week old babies--at 7 weeks, I contacted the breeder, who identified that others from the hatch looked to have flukes and he was treating without a good response. I had just noticed the beginning of a little darting in 2-3 of my 12; symptoms were mild and sporadic --though nothing noticable on gills; I made errors when I treated these guys with 2 treatments. My Clout was probably just too old [I bought it second hand from someone and it had no expiration date] and wasn't effective, and I then re infected the babies with a sponge filter I inadequately cleaned after the PP treatment I used. [Andrew's and my guess here]. I was careful in both treatment procedures but my errors are clear.
When the fish displayed a bit of flashing a couple days later, again, I called Andrew, who suggested we use his regular approach and specific treatment timeline. It WAS a lot of work and it worked completely. I was determined NOT to have "flukes: the gift that keeps on giving" per so many hobbyists' posts. I wanted my little guys fixed and didn't want to chance my other tanks becoming infected.
That's all I've got....it wasn't a case of inattention/neglect and letting the situation 'get out of hand'; ANY level of fluke infestation to me is 'bad enough' to warrent permanent immediate resolution. It was a benign case that I couldn't resolve and so I got help to remedy it permanently. Your statement didn't sit very well, so I've written to correct your assessment of my situation. I know it's my pride inducing me to write this: it matters to me that I not be thought of as a crappy hobbyist! LOL
Anyhow, best regards,
Harriett

[joanr]

Sorry Harriet, I was not referring to you at all in that light. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. And I also admire the fact that you did all that work to eradicate the flukes. I was meaning that at the first sign of flukes the 3 day Clout plan does seem to do the trick for many hobbyists, not that you had let things get out of hand, it wasn't the right phrase to use at that point of the post and again I'm sorry you took it as an afront to your abilities and care.

[scottthomas]

Well, the AP Anti-Fluke seems to be working. I dosed on Sunady and left in the water for 24 hours. I wiped down everything and did 90% wc daily. I redosed again tonight. The fish are much happier. I have about 45, 1.5 -2 inch fry in a 50 gallon. I was losing 1-4 fry per day. Breathing heavy out of one gill, flashing, and turning dark. I made several scopes and knew it was gill flukes. The parents have had gill flukes for 3 years unable to rid them. Now, all fish eating more, good color, none turning dark, and not a single death. I will take out a couple culls after I finish treatment and check again for flukes. I also began treating the parents in another tank. My fingers are crossed. :) Thanks everyone for the advice.

[joanr]

Great news, it's really good stuff for sure. Get those bad boys out a there! You'll see a whole new tank of happy Discus.

[Eddie]

Hell yeah Scott, thats fantastic news.

All the best,

Eddie

[Harriett]

Sorry Harriet, I was not referring to you at all in that light. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. And I also admire the fact that you did all that work to eradicate the flukes. I was meaning that at the first sign of flukes the 3 day Clout plan does seem to do the trick for many hobbyists, not that you had let things get out of hand, it wasn't the right phrase to use at that point of the post and again I'm sorry you took it as an afront to your abilities and care.

Joan,
Thanks for your response, it's all good.
Best regards,
Harriett

[scottthomas]

If you have had continuing problems with mild levels of gill flukes, I would suggest AP Anti-Fluke as a treatment before trying PP. I will say that I have never used PP and am a little scared after reading posts by some others. (although it seems to be effective)

I treated with AF total of 5 times with 3 day intervals in a 55 gal bb tank that contained about forty 2" juvies. I started with about 80 fish but lost 1-4 each day to flukes. (I could see many flukes under microscope)

I did 90% WC and completely wiped down tank with paper towels each day. Fish seemed much healthier after very first treatment. ASfter initial treatment there were no more deaths and tyhe medication did not seem to stress the fry at all.

I took out 2 culls today and did an extensive search for flukes with the microscope and found none.

Hopefully I will still find zero flukes in a couple weeks.

There probably is a better dosing schedule than the one I used. I may have even over done the medication but wanted to be sure to catch any hatching eggs.

HTH someone out there.

Thanks to Eddie and others for the suggestions.

[Eddie]

Excellent news Scott, Trichlorfon (Anti-Fluke) is the best IMO.


Take care,

Eddie

[joanr]

Scott, glad to hear it worked so well, especially since these were only 2" juvies and they didn't get overly stressed. Did you see any degradation of your bio-filter over the course of treatment?

[scottthomas]

Scott, glad to hear it worked so well, especially since these were only 2" juvies and they didn't get overly stressed. Did you see any degradation of your bio-filter over the course of treatment?

Yes, it killed off some of my bio. I got some slight Nitrite readings and will just have to do big wc each day. Not sure how much it was affected since I do big 90-75% wc each day. I would think with large wc I would not easily see increase in Nitrites so it may have really killed it good.

[nc0gnet0]

In my expierance with flukes, prazi has always been the best treatment. However, I might add my expierance to date has been limited with Koi and goldfish. The thing with Prazi is it does not hammer your bio-filter and is the least stressfull on the fish themselves.

Treatment is always best accomplished via a QT tank. Proper prazi treatment is a 3 and even better 4 treatment process. The advantages are you can leave your filters active and online, whereas I see other have removed them during other treatments, and this always carries with it a risk of re-infection.

Another option is to remove the fish into a clean QT tank, and then dose the display tank with a heavy bleach solution. This will of course completely kill off all your BB and you will have to re-cycle the tank (here is where those of us that have multiple tanks with multiple filters have an advantage).

[scottthomas]

I tried Prazi several times and it was ineffective in my case

[Eddie]

I tried Prazi several times and it was ineffective in my case

Ditto and has been the case for hundreds of others. ;)


Eddie

[Wahter]

Prazi has worked for me. I use prazi in powder form and add a bit of vinegar to help dissolve it. No flukes were found when I had some fish checked by a vet (he checked the gills and skin of the fish).

There are reports that some flukes are resistant to prazi, so that might have been the case where it didn't work.



Walter

[Jhhnn]

Improper use of meds encourages resistance in disease producing organisms. Individual organisms that survive an inadequate treatment regimen are, by definition, resistant, and will produce resistant offspring.

Prazi has been widely used by importers and wholesalers for a variety of reasons, mostly because it generally works, it's easy on the livestock, and carries low environmental concerns. Killing 98% of the flukes in an infested batch of fish returns them to marketability, and by the time the infestation reappears, the fish are long gone from the guy who had to treat them in the first place... A few cycles of that, and the surviving strain of flukes is highly resistant to prazi... or to anything else that's been used the same way.

When a particular drug falls out of favor, nobody uses it, and the organisms may lose their resistance over time, simply because it's not useful to their survival. Trichlorphon, for example, is a rather old drug, and some of the older literature indicates that hobbyists years ago were encountering resistant fluke strains. When it was replaced with prazi and other treatments, fluke strains may well have shed their resistance, and some strains may still have resistance to it today...

There are other treatments available, so hobbyists who have recurrent fluke infestations (despite proper methods) need to adapt their treatments to to the particular strain they're dealing with...

[scottthomas]

Well, I just wanted to update the progress or rather lack of it on my battle against gill flukes. I administered the treatment as you can read in the previous posts and it appeared that the flukes were gone. I checked multiple times under microscope from gill and skin samples. Obviously the Anti-Fluke treatment did kill adult gill flukes as none were found. However, a couple weeks later I noticed some flashing and fish flaring thier gills as if irritated. I checked and bummer they are back. "The gift that keeps on giving". I feel confident that the medication works and that the problem lies with my inability to catch hatching eggs. I am going to try another round and dose every other day for two weeks. The last time killed of some of my bio filter so I am just going to remove the filtration and make frequent wc. I am not sure how long this medication is active in the water.

[yim11]

Well, I just wanted to update the progress or rather lack of it on my battle against gill flukes. I administered the treatment as you can read in the previous posts and it appeared that the flukes were gone. I checked multiple times under microscope from gill and skin samples. Obviously the Anti-Fluke treatment did kill adult gill flukes as none were found. However, a couple weeks later I noticed some flashing and fish flaring thier gills as if irritated. I checked and bummer they are back. "The gift that keeps on giving". I feel confident that the medication works and that the problem lies with my inability to catch hatching eggs. I am going to try another round and dose every other day for two weeks. The last time killed of some of my bio filter so I am just going to remove the filtration and make frequent wc. I am not sure how long this medication is active in the water.

If you remove the filtration then replace isn't there a chance it could be carrying eggs?

In another fluke thread Hans mentions de los from Fishy Farmacy, it's supposed to kill the eggs.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products.html#D

Look forward to your progress, Thanks!
-jim

[kaceyo]

Jim,
De-Los has the same med in it that Anti-Fluke has. It says that it kills eggs too but it actually doesn't. When a med comes around that really does kill fluke eggs, everyone will hear about it. It will be big news.

Kacey

[scottthomas]

If you remove the filtration then replace isn't there a chance it could be carrying eggs?

I am going to sterilize my sponges. I will have to reestablish bio. Pain in the rear but like you point out, I dont want to reintroduce eggs from filter material.

[scottthomas]

De-Los has the same med in it that Anti-Fluke has. It says that it kills eggs too but it actually doesn't. When a med comes around that really does kill fluke eggs, everyone will hear about it. It will be big news.

I was skeptical of that claim also.

[Eddie]

Scott, Trichlorfon is greatly affected by temperature. Anything above 80F, and its efficiency is GREATLY reduced. If the temp is at 80F, it will generally stay active in the water for 24 hours. This is especially important when using trichlorfon because it is not the strength of the chemical, but the duration of treatment that matters most.


Eddie

[scottthomas]

Great information. I have my tank at 84. I will lower it now. Thanks

[Eddie]

Great information. I have my tank at 84. I will lower it now. Thanks

Great info on using trichlorfon.

http://www.lagunakoi.com/Applying-Medication/Parasitic-Crustaceans-and-Monogenetic-Flukes-p-349.html


Eddie

[scottthomas]

Great info on using trichlorfon.

http://www.lagunakoi.com/Applying-Me...kes-p-349.html

Perfect:D Thanks. I am going to follow this precisely- 20 days- no more flukes. I may throw a party for my discus.

[scottishbloke]

Scott- can you tell me where you were able to get the Anti-Fluke? I too have been having problems with flukes (confirmed using microscope at school) and recently lost my 3 smallest fry (of 9, about a 1 in 3 death rate :( ) in the latest outbreak. I have tried both Clout and Fluke Tabs in separate outbreaks; these did work and the fish were doing well, but yesterday and today I noticed some flashing behavior again, and am about out of both meds now. I would like to try the Anti-Fluke as the experts on here strongly recommend it, but no-one seems to carry it around here, and indeed, most LFS hadn't even heard of it when I asked.

Colin

[scottthomas]

Hi Colin,

Yes, it is hard to find for some reason. I looked online and most places listed as unavailable or out of stock. I bought the last of it from Optimum Aquarium in Kennesaw. The owner said he could order more. Ask him to order the larger bottles. The small ones were a PITA. Flukes dont really bother my adult discus but they are really hard on small fry. I have lost hundrfeds of fry to flukes and many survivors are smaller and weaker from battles with these microscopic demons.

I saw these places online but have no idea about service etc.

Good Luck, and I am still going to call you this summer about a planted tank.

http://http://www.orchidgreenhouse.com/approanti-flukelifebearer.aspx

http://www.pondbiz.com/home/pb1/page_735_349/anti_fluke_life_bearer.html

http://www.macarthurwatergardens.com/Additives/Medications/Appro/Anti-fluke_lifebearer.shtml

http://amads.us/shop/item.asp?itemid=2000

http://www.perfectpetshop.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=486

http://www.pondpals.com/pond_water_treatment/AP%20Pro%20Pond.html

[Harriett]

Scott, as I understand it, the dosing schedule should be every 4th day if you want to nail freshly hatched eggs. If you do it every 2 days you will likely not catch them in the life cycle at a time you can get them all at once. From Andrew's recommendation when I did the PP dosing, he said strictly it was a dosing on day 1, 4, AND 8. 8 months out, no sign of a problem in this tank. HTH.
Best regards,
Harriett

[kaceyo]

Colin,
Fluke Tabs and Clout both have the same med in it as Anti-Fluke, along with some other meds. I've never used Clout but using Fluke Tabs is close to what using Anti-Fluke is at 3x their recommended dose.
HTH

Kacey

[scottishbloke]

Hi Colin,

Yes, it is hard to find for some reason. I looked online and most places listed as unavailable or out of stock. I bought the last of it from Optimum Aquarium in Kennesaw. The owner said he could order more. Ask him to order the larger bottles. The small ones were a PITA. Flukes dont really bother my adult discus but they are really hard on small fry. I have lost hundrfeds of fry to flukes and many survivors are smaller and weaker from battles with these microscopic demons.

I saw these places online but have no idea about service etc.

Good Luck, and I am still going to call you this summer about a planted tank.

http://http://www.orchidgreenhouse.com/approanti-flukelifebearer.aspx

http://www.pondbiz.com/home/pb1/page_735_349/anti_fluke_life_bearer.html

http://www.macarthurwatergardens.com/Additives/Medications/Appro/Anti-fluke_lifebearer.shtml

http://amads.us/shop/item.asp?itemid=2000

http://www.perfectpetshop.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=486

http://www.pondpals.com/pond_water_treatment/AP%20Pro%20Pond.html

Scott,

Thanks for the info and links! I'm going to call Optimum Aquarium tomorrow morning and get him to order in some larger size bottles of the Anti-Fluke. I think this may be the best bet as a long-term solution to dispensing with these scientifically interesting but horrible little beasts (I mean, can you imagine being infested with something that "walks" around using multiple hooks embedded in your flesh :-0 ). I'm also wondering now if flukes were also responsible for some mysterious unexplained deaths I had in my rainbowfish tank over the years as well. After the Fluke Tabs and huge W/Cs, the flashing has stopped...for now, anyway, but I'm thinking the flukes will be back at some point soon. I'll give you a shout when the LFS gets the meds in, so you can replenish your own supply as well.
My fish are pretty much like yours in that the sub-adults tolerate the flukes pretty well, but they really hurt the fry. Having said that, the sub-adult PE I got from Kenny is a more sensitive fish and was really bothered by these nasties for a while- during the worst outbreak, he had a ragged white section of fluke-infested gill tissue protruding from one gill cover which looked just awful, and stopped eating for a while, putting him at the bottom of the pecking order. He's doing much better now and eating like a champ, thankfully :)

Harriet, Kaceyo,

Your info is spot on regarding the egg hatching cycle/when to re-dose, and both Clout and Fluke Tabs containing Trichlorophan etc. I would keep using the Fluke Tabs as they are so powerful, but those I had were the only ones I could find within a 20-mile radius of my home, at one store only. Most LFS said they hadn't seen the Tabs in years; the LFS I found them at said it was very difficult to get them, wasn't sure if they were still being manufactured, and that it was highly unlikely he could get any more in. I could probably find them online somewhere, but for now I'm going to try the Anti-Fluke over a longer period and see how it goes.

Thanks everyone for your help- you guys rock :D:D:D

Colin

[rickztahone]

Scott, as I understand it, the dosing schedule should be every 4th day if you want to nail freshly hatched eggs. If you do it every 2 days you will likely not catch them in the life cycle at a time you can get them all at once. From Andrew's recommendation when I did the PP dosing, he said strictly it was a dosing on day 1, 4, AND 8. 8 months out, no sign of a problem in this tank. HTH.
Best regards,
Harriett

Harriett, would this apply to Praziquantel pure powder? from my past treatments i have dosed 4 days straight with WC's in between and rest for 3 days. would the 1/4/8 intervals be better? it would be better for me seeing as i'm treating in a partially planted tank

[Chad Adams]

Scott- can you tell me where you were able to get the Anti-Fluke? I too have been having problems with flukes (confirmed using microscope at school) and recently lost my 3 smallest fry (of 9, about a 1 in 3 death rate :( ) in the latest outbreak.
Colin

Colin,
Are these ones you got from me a couple months ago?
Chad

[scottishbloke]

Colin,
Are these ones you got from me a couple months ago?
Chad

Yes, I'm afraid so. I lost 2 Fire Reds and 1 Red Scribble. I was pretty bummed out about it, but when I read how many fry Scott and others have recently been losing to flukes (several a day), I felt lucky that I only lost my 3 smallest fry; at least I discovered what the problem was and what to do about it. In my pre-discus days, I once lost 18 assorted Rainbowfish and 19 Neon Tetras within three days, and to this day I still don't know what killed them. The six other fry are doing very well, though, and getting pretty big; the remaining Fire Red has quite a mean streak, and is currently the "alpha male" of the bunch. The Fluke Tabs and 100% WCs seem to have done the trick for now- haven't seen any scratching in several days, and all fish are eating tons of food. I'm getting some Anti-Fluke soon as a preventive measure to hopefully ensure I don't lose any more fish in the future, dosing every 4th day for around 20 more days.

Colin

[Chad Adams]

Yes, I'm afraid so. I lost 2 Fire Reds and 1 Red Scribble. I was pretty bummed out about it, but when I read how many fry Scott and others have recently been losing to flukes (several a day), I felt lucky that I only lost my 3 smallest fry; at least I discovered what the problem was and what to do about it. In my pre-discus days, I once lost 18 assorted Rainbowfish and 19 Neon Tetras within three days, and to this day I still don't know what killed them. The six other fry are doing very well, though, and getting pretty big; the remaining Fire Red has quite a mean streak, and is currently the "alpha male" of the bunch. The Fluke Tabs and 100% WCs seem to have done the trick for now- haven't seen any scratching in several days, and all fish are eating tons of food. I'm getting some Anti-Fluke soon as a preventive measure to hopefully ensure I don't lose any more fish in the future, dosing every 4th day for around 20 more days.

Colin

Let me know when you think you're ready, I'll replace the ones you
lost-No Charge.
Chad

[William Palumbo]

Good for you Chad. A great gesture...Bill

[rickztahone]

how long does it take flukes to mature and lay eggs?

[scottishbloke]

Let me know when you think you're ready, I'll replace the ones you
lost-No Charge.
Chad

Chad,

This is a wonderful gesture indeed- you really don't have to do that, but thank you so much for offering, it is very much appreciated :D If any of my other strains eventually produce offspring, suffice it to say you will be first in line to get some fry with my compliments :)

I must admit I was quite baffled regarding where the flukes came from. Discus cost a packet, so I took great care to sterilize all my tanks and equipment, boil the driftwood, and cycle them before adding any fish, all of which spent a long time in QT; all plants (Anubias, Red Tiger lotus bulbs, and Floating Water Sprite) were also treated to a hot water bath prior to being added as well. The only change was adding a trio of bristlenose plecos and my last surviving otto to my main tank, but again these were all in QT for 5 weeks beforehand and I eventually put my smallest sub-adult discus in QT with them to see if anything happened. I can only conclude that perhaps the plecos still carried the parasites in small numbers, even though the discus in with them showed no symptoms after 2 weeks' exposure- maybe this was not long enough. Maybe I also transferred the flukes or eggs to the fry tank without knowing it. Anyhow, there is no more scratching at present, and I intend to do everything I can to keep things that way...

Cheers,

Colin

[kaceyo]

Hey Colin,
Keep in mind that the fish can have a few flukes (or other bugs) and not show any symptoms for months, years or ever. QT doesn't eliminate the possibility of pathogens, it just gives you enough time to see that they aren't currently a problem and that the fish's immune system is keeping them under control. There are enough parasites and bacteria on our fish at any given time to eventually lead to their death. Healthy fish will keep them under control so it's not a problem untill circumstances come up to allow them to multiply. So you didn't have to introduce them. Most likely they were already there.

Kacey

[scottthomas]

Chad, that is really nice of you.

Colin, I bet many discus have some few flukes but they are never really a problem if the fish is healthy and you are doing frequent water changes. I have two adults that you would never know had some flukes by looking at them (Maybe they are gone now:)) However, when you have 100 small fry crowded in a 29 gallon tank it can become a problem quickly. I try to make 2 wc daily and was losing a couple per day. If I did 1 wc I would lose sometimes 10-20 in a day. Under the microscope in one drop of water taken from a gill scraping I could count over 20 flukes. I have not lost any since I began treating with the anti-fluke. I am on my second round and this time I am going to make sure not to miss the egg hatching cycle. That is the key.

PS. Maybe I could trade you a few discus this summer in return for your expertise in creatinga planted tank.

Good luck with the flukes

[Chad Adams]

Chad,

This is a wonderful gesture indeed- you really don't have to do that, but thank you so much for offering, it is very much appreciated :D If any of my other strains eventually produce offspring, suffice it to say you will be first in line to get some fry with my compliments :)

Cheers,

Colin


Chad, that is really nice of you.


Hey guys,
Thanks for the kind words. It's really no problem. I've been
extremely blessed with very prolific, healthy discus. My main concern is for the hobby & hobbyist. I'll always have discus so if I can help someone who unfortunately lost some, I'm glad to do it.
Cheers:)
Chad

[Jhhnn]

how long does it take flukes to mature and lay eggs?

As I understand it, the whole fluke lifecycle is temperature dependent. Eggs hatch faster and attached swimmers become adults faster at warmer temps. In ponds, fluke eggs lie dormant for months because of low temps, hatch when the water warms up, and attached flukes' metabolism slows to a crawl in cold water. For them, it's a survival factor.

The critical factor is that it takes ~4 days for fluke eggs to hatch and the swimmers to attach at aquarium temps, but definitely more than 4 days for attached flukes to be able to lay eggs.

That's something on the order of 8-9 days, iirc, and there is some variation in maturity times, I'm confident, because there are dozens of species of flukes.

For aquarists, the critical factor is to first find a med that's effective against the particular fluke variety or varieties they're dealing with.

The initial treatment should show dramatic improvement in the fish if it's effective, basically killing all the attached flukes and free swimmers.

The aquarist needs to wait until the 4th day, when all the eggs will have theoretically hatched but the oldest newly hatched flukes are still immature, infertile, and dose again, killing them too.

A third treatment should be used as follow up on the 4th day after that to kill any flukes that may have hatched late.

Some aquarists have had success treating 3 times at slightly longer intervals, on the 5th or 6th day. I dosed my BB tank at lights out, after their usual daily water change, ran filter carbon in a box filter on the in between days...

[rickztahone]

As I understand it, the whole fluke lifecycle is temperature dependent. Eggs hatch faster and attached swimmers become adults faster at warmer temps. In ponds, fluke eggs lie dormant for months because of low temps, hatch when the water warms up, and attached flukes' metabolism slows to a crawl in cold water. For them, it's a survival factor.

The critical factor is that it takes ~4 days for fluke eggs to hatch and the swimmers to attach at aquarium temps, but definitely more than 4 days for attached flukes to be able to lay eggs.

That's something on the order of 8-9 days, iirc, and there is some variation in maturity times, I'm confident, because there are dozens of species of flukes.

For aquarists, the critical factor is to first find a med that's effective against the particular fluke variety or varieties they're dealing with.

The initial treatment should show dramatic improvement in the fish if it's effective, basically killing all the attached flukes and free swimmers.

The aquarist needs to wait until the 4th day, when all the eggs will have theoretically hatched but the oldest newly hatched flukes are still immature, infertile, and dose again, killing them too.

A third treatment should be used as follow up on the 4th day after that to kill any flukes that may have hatched late.

Some aquarists have had success treating 3 times at slightly longer intervals, on the 5th or 6th day. I dosed my BB tank at lights out, after their usual daily water change, ran filter carbon in a box filter on the in between days...

thanks John, that is the type of info i was looking for. although i have treated with pure prazi before it was in a BB and it was a lot more controlled. treating in my 125 isn't that much more difficult but it is a little more hassle due to the eco complete and the larger area. however, after dosing the prazi i noticed the discus acting much better. i will treat 4 days and lay off for 3 days and will repeat this cycle (4on/3off) for three full courses. i hope to rid them out of my tank but i know it's wishful thinking in a tank with substrate. either way, after this all i will be able to say is "i tried".

[scottthomas]

hey Ricardo,

I dont even know if its possible because I dont know much about plants. But what about moving the dicus to a bb for fluke treatment with the prazi and then treating the planted tank with a stronger chemical. Is there something that will nuke the flukes without killing plants? At least the flukes should die off without a host in some amount of time. Then you could return the fish to a clean tank. Just an idea.

[Chester]

Flukes and Super Flukes.

DLOS from the National Fish Pharmacy will totally eliminate them. But its a month long treatment. It kills them in all life cycles. Even the eggs.

I've use this on "super flukes" myself and they are now eradicated.

DLOS is not a filter killer.

Cheers

Chester :)

[Chester]

One more DLOS tip >

DLOS will soon no longer be available due to FDA regulations in the USA.

Take that as you wish, I purchased a large supply.

The next frontline treatment for these super flukes will be Ivermectin.

Some trials are being run now and look promising.

Cheers

Chester :)

[scottishbloke]

Well, things are looking good regarding the flukes- haven't seen any scratching in quite a while now, so it looks like my last round of meds caught any new ones hatching from eggs, etc. Like you guys said, I'm sure there are still some flukes in the tanks or fish, and that they will always be there somewhere, but are now at a low enough population level that they are no longer a problem. We humans ourselves carry over 4 lb of bacteria in our guts alone, but it's only when some kinds of them become too numerous that a problem occurs (often induced by eating at certain restaurants, lol) just like our fish. There is now a lot of very useful information in all these posts concerning fluke treatments, and I am glad to have this resource available- a big thanks to everyone who has contributed :)

Scott- when I called the LFS he was still out of the Anti-Fluke and his usual suppliers had discontinued it, but he added that he would order in more for us if possible through other vendors, so I'm hopeful he can get the bigger bottles. I'll still buy the small ones if that's all he can get, though. I'm going to call again today after school and see if he has got hold of any more- will keep you posted.

Colin

[rickztahone]

well today was my last day of treatment for flukes with pure prazi and i must say the discus are all looking like they are fluke free. i know this is a huge statement that usually needs to be said while knocking on wood but i'll hold on to that little string of hope while i can, lol. hopefully this will be the end of my battle with flukes, but most likely it isn't. i haven't seen any scratching/flashing or any one sided gill breathing which was my indicator of flukes in the first place. 3 weeks of treatment is a PITA btw.

[Eddie]

well today was my last day of treatment for flukes with pure prazi and i must say the discus are all looking like they are fluke free. i know this is a huge statement that usually needs to be said while knocking on wood but i'll hold on to that little string of hope while i can, lol. hopefully this will be the end of my battle with flukes, but most likely it isn't. i haven't seen any scratching/flashing or any one sided gill breathing which was my indicator of flukes in the first place. 3 weeks of treatment is a PITA btw.

Sounds good Ricardo, hope they stay clean!

Take care,

Eddie

[kaceyo]

I'll keep my fingers crossed. What I sometimes do at this point is treat with PP every 7 days for a couple of treatments just to make sure and to give the fish an even better chance of coming out of it without a relapse.

[rickztahone]

Sounds good Ricardo, hope they stay clean!

Take care,

Eddie
thx Eddie, and me too.


I'll keep my fingers crossed. What I sometimes do at this point is treat with PP every 7 days for a couple of treatments just to make sure and to give the fish an even better chance of coming out of it without a relapse.

thanks for the advise Kacey. the only reason i might do the PP is due to my tank having plants. the PP probably wouldn't stay viable in my tank for long. i will keep an eye out on them though

[scottthomas]

good luck. I hope they are gone for good:) I think my tanks are fluke free now also. Man I hate those things.

[rickztahone]

good luck. I hope they are gone for good:) I think my tanks are fluke free now also. Man I hate those things.

Congrats Scott! I hate to talk early because I usually jinx myself, lol. hopefully they are gone though

[scottishbloke]

Well, it appears that my flukes are back to fight round 4 :mad: I did 4 doses of Clout at 4-day intervals as recommended, but the fish started scratching again last night. It looks like I will have to try and find some more Fluke Tabs or obtain Anti-Fluke from an online source, as the LFS who was trying to get me the latter has been trying for weeks and told me Sunday he cannot find any; he does however have some Prazi Pro left, and I am tempted to try that, seeing as some of you lot have had success with it. These little buggers truly are "the gift that keeps on giving":(

Colin

[Eddie]

Well, it appears that my flukes are back to fight round 4 :mad: I did 4 doses of Clout at 4-day intervals as recommended, but the fish started scratching again last night. It looks like I will have to try and find some more Fluke Tabs or obtain Anti-Fluke from an online source, as the LFS who was trying to get me the latter has been trying for weeks and told me Sunday he cannot find any; he does however have some Prazi Pro left, and I am tempted to try that, seeing as some of you lot have had success with it. These little buggers truly are "the gift that keeps on giving":(

Colin

Hey Colin, I believe Ricardo used pure powder form. PraziPro is less effective IME and alot of reports.

Eddie

[rickztahone]

Well, it appears that my flukes are back to fight round 4 :mad: I did 4 doses of Clout at 4-day intervals as recommended, but the fish started scratching again last night. It looks like I will have to try and find some more Fluke Tabs or obtain Anti-Fluke from an online source, as the LFS who was trying to get me the latter has been trying for weeks and told me Sunday he cannot find any; he does however have some Prazi Pro left, and I am tempted to try that, seeing as some of you lot have had success with it. These little buggers truly are "the gift that keeps on giving":(

Colin

sorry to hear that Colin. they are quite the nasty little buggers. this is just a personal opinion and i have no basis on what i'm about to say other than just a gut feeling but it would seem like the flukes you have left are going to be some of the most resilient flukes to treat seeing as they have survived 4 different types of treatments. to say the least it is going to be difficult to get rid of them.


Hey Colin, I believe Ricardo used pure powder form. PraziPro is less effective IME and alot of reports.

Eddie

Eddie is correct and i did use the pure praziquantel from Jehmco.com. call John up and let him know you want to get the pure praziquantel and he will help you out. i purchased 2 of the 10 gram bottles to treat 3 times. it is a pain to treat for three weeks but i have not yet seen any signs of flukes since. i'm hoping for the best for you buddy.

[nc0gnet0]

There is a new product out there in the Koi Realm as it seems they have been hit by the resistant strain of flukes as well. Initiall reports are very positive with one treatment knocking them out. Of course, I am sure the medication has yet to be tried on Discus, so using it would carry an element of risk. The product is called Fluke M

[kaceyo]

I believe it came out in 2007 but I don't frequent the Koi forums so don't know what the latest views on it are. Anyone?
I think it's supposed to be flubendazol based.

[Yiannisk]

It is the same formula and manufacturer (kusuri) as the so called new wormer plus for discus i have some but thank god i have no problems to try it and give you results (i used it only as a precaution)
You can get it easily in UK e-bay and it is cheap it cost me 28,74 euros for two 500 gal packs including shipment.

click on e-bay shop and you will find both also for turtles

http://www.wormerplus.com/index.php

[nc0gnet0]

Yes, I should have stated that it came out in UK a while ago but only recently has become available over here. Haven't used it myself but have heard that it works when prazi doesn't on koi. Nice to know that there is a discus product as well, most likely cheaper in the KOI packaging though......

[Chad Adams]

Well, it appears that my flukes are back to fight round 4 :mad: I did 4 doses of Clout at 4-day intervals as recommended, but the fish started scratching again last night. It looks like I will have to try and find some more Fluke Tabs or obtain Anti-Fluke from an online source, as the LFS who was trying to get me the latter has been trying for weeks and told me Sunday he cannot find any; he does however have some Prazi Pro left, and I am tempted to try that, seeing as some of you lot have had success with it. These little buggers truly are "the gift that keeps on giving":(

Colin

Colin,
I have an unopened bottle if you need it. i bought it while in Cincy at the
ACA in case ever needed. Let me know. Sorry you're still having problems. I've got some nice ones picked out for you, though.
Chad

[scottishbloke]

Well, I treated the fish for 3 weeks with pure powder prazi...and it was not successful, lost 2 more fry to boot last week :( The horrible little buggers infesting my fish simply will not die. Right now, all the fish look healthy (no darkening, fins not clamped etc), are active, and eating fine, but they are still scratching every so often. I do a 100% w/c every 2 days and keep the tank clean, which is quite helpful in keeping down the number of parasites in the water column, but this will not solve the problem. I'm not quite sure what to do now- I haven't been able to get any Life Bearer, but its active ingredient trichlorophon was in the Clout I tried, and that didn't work either. Maybe I need to try using a stronger dose of trichlorophan than was in the Clout. The Fluke Tabs were the most effective, however- it took a long time for the flukes to recover from that- but I only had enough Tabs for 2 treatments, so it's possible that there were some unhatched eggs that I missed. Perhaps I should do a prolonged Tabs treatment to ensure I get all the eggs etc and permanently relocate my plecos, bamboo shrimp and otto to a different tank. All the non-discus fish species do not appear to have ever been bothered by the flukes at all, but will likely be killed by prolonged exposure to Fluke Tabs if I leave them in the tank. The shrimp usually respond to meds by shedding their exoskeleton the same night, I'm amazed they are still alive and healthy...

The 4 fry I have remaining are 1 Fire Red and all 3 Red Snakeskins; the latter are a tougher strain than the Red Scribbelt it seems, but 2 of them are only half the size of the other two surviving fish, who are very aggressive and still growing quite fast in spite of everything :confused:
I think I'm going to try the Fluke Tabs again or Life Bearer, and hope that the flukes haven't become resistant in the meantime before messing around with PP. I know there are new meds out there such as Fluke M, but I haven't really heard much about these as yet from other fish keepers.

Hopefully I'll have better luck fighting Round 5!!

Colin

[nc0gnet0]

and hope that the flukes haven't become resistant in the meantime before messing around with PP

PP isn't a med, it an oxidizing agent, as such building a resistance to it is all but impossible. To do so would require the flukes to develope something akin to a bulletproof vest.

It appears that something in your water may be hampering your meds effectiveness.....what was your PH-KH-GH parameters again?

Don't use salt in combination with other medications when treating for flukes.

Have you considered using UV to keep the critters under control?

Are you absolutely sure your up against gill flukes? Skin flukes can and will infest the gills.

[rickztahone]

Well, I treated the fish for 3 weeks with pure powder prazi...and it was not successful, lost 2 more fry to boot last week :( The horrible little buggers infesting my fish simply will not die. Right now, all the fish look healthy (no darkening, fins not clamped etc), are active, and eating fine, but they are still scratching every so often. I do a 100% w/c every 2 days and keep the tank clean, which is quite helpful in keeping down the number of parasites in the water column, but this will not solve the problem. I'm not quite sure what to do now- I haven't been able to get any Life Bearer, but its active ingredient trichlorophon was in the Clout I tried, and that didn't work either. Maybe I need to try using a stronger dose of trichlorophan than was in the Clout. The Fluke Tabs were the most effective, however- it took a long time for the flukes to recover from that- but I only had enough Tabs for 2 treatments, so it's possible that there were some unhatched eggs that I missed. Perhaps I should do a prolonged Tabs treatment to ensure I get all the eggs etc and permanently relocate my plecos, bamboo shrimp and otto to a different tank. All the non-discus fish species do not appear to have ever been bothered by the flukes at all, but will likely be killed by prolonged exposure to Fluke Tabs if I leave them in the tank. The shrimp usually respond to meds by shedding their exoskeleton the same night, I'm amazed they are still alive and healthy...

The 4 fry I have remaining are 1 Fire Red and all 3 Red Snakeskins; the latter are a tougher strain than the Red Scribbelt it seems, but 2 of them are only half the size of the other two surviving fish, who are very aggressive and still growing quite fast in spite of everything :confused:
I think I'm going to try the Fluke Tabs again or Life Bearer, and hope that the flukes haven't become resistant in the meantime before messing around with PP. I know there are new meds out there such as Fluke M, but I haven't really heard much about these as yet from other fish keepers.

Hopefully I'll have better luck fighting Round 5!!

Colin

sry you are still going through this Colin. you may have inadvertently created stronger flukes. the best thing would have been to keep at it with the fluke tabs since that's what you had the most success with, but now, it might require you to treat more than usual. flukes are the worst critters in an aquarium setting IMO

[kaceyo]

IME it's best to keep triclorfon based meds in the water for at least 3 days before stopping treatment. Then wait 3 or 4 days, depending on temp, and redose for 3 days. Repeat this for up to 3 weeks.
And I agree with no salt while meds are being used.

[jimg]

Hi
Eddie just trying to make sense of treatments. You say 2 drops per gallon for 24 hrs then change tanks after 4 days and re-dose 2 drops per gallon for 3 total treatments. On an earlier post of yours you told someone 1 drop per gal then 24 hrs and another 1 drop per gallon that would total 2 drops. That is still one drop per gal. not 2, just 2 treatments in 24 hrs. you also said after 4 days re-dose in a new tank, but on another post you said 6 days apart. just wondering which worked best for you.
I think I mentioned once before that I tried af and after 4 treatments still had live flukes on fry the day after I finished treatment, but I didn't change tanksor sponge filters. I'm not convinced the med size flukes came from eggs in the filter in 1 day.

[Eddie]

Temperature is the deciding factor on how frequently you need to treat. I've used 2 drops per gallon in stubborn cases, even on fry and it was more effective. The routine I mentioned to you covers all bases, regardless of temperature, assuming that you had it above 80F.


Just so we are all on the same page, everybody's case is different and some are more sever than others. You however reported that you tried everything and nothing worked. I gave you a routine, follow it if you want but don't knock it if you havent tried it. I dont expect everybody to go to the extremes that you need to go through. All cases are different.

Eddie

[jimg]

My fluke problem is far from serious. You would never know any of my discus had flukes. no heavy breathing, flashing,scratching against things,closed gill etc. I only know they have flukes because I lost a few fry out of hundreds and culled a couple others and scoped them and found only 2-3 on each if any.
A lot of people have fluke symptoms and many treatments knock the flukes back to a tolerable amount for the fish and people think they eliminated them.
I could go on forever without meds but it became more of a challenge that I must beat!
I am the type of person that if I tell you my discus are fluke free, I want to mean it.

I am not knocking your advice. I just questioned a couple things you answered differently so that I could follow your advice 100% if I choose.
I asked you again because my ica reds turned very pale. 3 ancistrus died over night. water clouded in 2 tanks all temps were at 80 deg. bare tanks, only air stones and heater with 100% daily wc using 2 drops per gal. I did 2 drops per gal then 24 hrs 100% wc then redosed at 2 drops per gal. That was 4 days ago.
This treatment I switched tanks again and used 1 drop pg I will see.
I am also setting up 2 more pairs which I will try Harrietts Andrew Soh pp treatment.
My water is town water which I have whole house carbon,25 to 5 micron whole house filters then I mix r/o with it to keep ph @ 7.2 gh6,kh3,tds 250+_
I do appreciate all advice to questions and thank all who take the time to answer.
Jim

[Eddie]

Update I used pp baths @ 1.5g per 1000ml and used 100ml per 20 galls every 5 days four treatments in 29 gallon tanks with established sponge filters. I looked at some fry under microscope and still saw flukes.
I then tried the life bearer once a week for 4 weeks temps lowered to 79 deg.still see flukes
I then put 22ml of formalin and 5 tbls of salt per 15 gallons for 1 hour bath and put the fish in sterilized tanks with no filter , just do 100% water changes with 1 tbls per 10 gallon salt everyday for 4 days and repeated this 4 times.each time was to a new tank all bare no filters heaters were cleaned with alcohol hands hoses etc bleached and alcoholed. today I decided to cull the smallest of a batch of 1.5" fry and saw 2 flukes..@#$%$^*.!
I did a couple salt baths on the 4" icca reds,5" white and a couple other pairs but I only did it 3 times in 2 weeks. I am not going to kill them to see if that worked.
After all this I thought they were clear of flukes so I set up new tanks with new filters and dr tims one and only, only to find I may have to put them in sterile tanks and start over. hoping that after a couple weeks the flukes will die off in fish-less cycled tanks.
none of my fish ever showed any signs of flukes, 14 tanks, only knew because I lost about 12 fry out of 100.
I also have been treating one of my 90 gal with 4 times the rec. dose of formalin for 24hrs every 4 days and culled a stunted fish today to see 3 flukes on the gills
Anyone think they may come from town/city water supply?
My town water is from nys reservoirs,they chlorinate etc.
I have a large carbon,1.8cf, and 25 micron to 5 micron water filters treating all water that enters my house.

To me, the thread sounds serious to me, aside from the fish dying, you've tried multiple treatments with a number of chemicals. I guess we can call it a stubborn case, for which I responded with a routine that should fix the issue.

Many members have gotten past flukes using a number of different methods. Understanding the life cycle of flukes (depending on what type) and understanding the chemical being used is the number one priority. If you do not know exactly what parasite you are dealing with, you are playing the lottery with what ever chemical you choose. If you do not know the pre-conditions, or prerequisites for the chemical being used, then you are also playing the lottery.

Have you scraped/scoped to identify the exact problem? This was something I myself assumed but must have been mistaken. Are you only relying on fluke type symptoms?

Eddie

[jimg]

I claimed to lost about 12 out of hundreds of fry over a long period including the ones I culled. I also mentioned a couple times that I looked at some fry under scope and saw 2-3 if any flukes. I will see what works best for me.

[brewmaster15]

Hi everyone,
Flukes are by far the most annoying critters we encounter but not the end of the world. If I had a dollar for every comment I have read over the years as to what worked and didn't work for both cases where flukes are confirmed by microscope (rarely IMO) or speculated by symptoms (commonly) ... I would be very rich!

Some cautious advice to everyone...be careful you don't miss the forest for the tree.... or in this case kill the forest to save a tree.:)

Focus on treating Breeding pairs not tanks of juvies.....its far easier and more effective because the population densities for the flukes are lower and more localized..... treat in bare bottom tanks...no filters...

I'm going to sound cold here to some hobbyists... and I am sorry if I do...but If a batch of fry has flukes...cull the batch and return to the parents treatments....The parents will have fry again...Trying to treat a batch of fry by chemically poisoning with pesticides (clout, fluke tabs, lifebearer, whatever) or burning them with caustic chemicals like PP or formalin is not a good way to go IME. I've been there and done that... Fry from these kinds of toxic warfare rarely turn out as well as others not so treated for various reasons. Hobbyists often have a hard time making a choice like that because we get attached to the fry quickly...I know because I too used to be like that....Since those days I look at the bigger picture now..... I focus on my pairs...not juvies...

If I have juvies that I receive from a vendor...I assume they have flukes...erradicating flukes is a pipe dream under most conditions and that is a fact.. especially since so many hobbyists are perpetually adding stock to their tanks... Controlling them and knocking back the numbers present is very doable... and here I prefer the formalin or PP route(Personal preference) and IMO really is alls a Hobbyists needs to do from time to time if they become a problem...unless this is a breeding pair.

I realize that this point of view is probably in the minority...but I luckily am entitled to that opinion:D and it has made my life so much easier here.

Hth,
al

[nc0gnet0]

If I had a dollar for every comment I have read over the years as to what worked and didn't work for both cases where flukes are confirmed by microscope (rarely IMO) or speculated by symptoms (commonly) ... I would be very rich!

As long as you brought this up, what is your method for scoping for gill flukes on a discus? I know when I scrape and scope a koi (a much larger fish), typically I sedate him/her with clove oil, and then perform a gill snip. However, with discus, especially juvies, it seems like the procedure alone would lead to death. Are you suggesting that one would perhaps pick the one that displayed the worse symptoms, euthanize, and then scope?

I must say that I have to agree with your logic about culling the juvies and treating the parents, as long as the diagnosis can be backed up. In the case of the original poster having thrown everything but the kitchen sink at what they claim to be are gill flukes, with limited or no sucesss, do we really want these "super flukes" to be unleashed on the rest of the world?

[brewmaster15]

When scoping for Flukes on discus, sacrificing the discus is probably the most effective way to get a picture of how bad the infestation is in a tank. On juvies and fry thats what I do here ...not many hobbies would feel comfortable doing that which makes ID even harder, IMO. On adults...a small Gill snip is possible...but Not easy and its not something most hobbyists would really want to try.

Most of the time...a fish flashes or breathes out of one Gill and meds are dumped in for Flukes and you hope for the best....this is the reason why resistant strains develop.

hth,
al

[nc0gnet0]

Ok Al,

That is what I suspected. Another question, I often here about gill flukes with discus, but seldom to I here about body flukes. This seems odd to me, or are people just over-generalizing and grouping all flukes into one category?

While the medications are typically the same in treatment, the treatment protocol is different. Gill flukes are livebearers, while body flukes are egg layers. Add to the confusion, body flukes can and will infest the gills.

And one last thing I would like you to clarify, the proper use of salt. It seems like everytime someone posts to the disease section, the first few posts to come back are add salt this add salt that. Salt, IMHO, should be treated as a medication, and what we are eventually (if not already) going to do is develope salt resistant strains of everything. This is especially true when "shotgunning" salt with additional medications at the same time, which often times contradict each other in terms of the mode of operation.

[brewmaster15]

Well I am no expert here by any means , a fish pathologist would be better suited for definitives here.. These are my opinions and experiences and maybe a tad of Biology backround. ...nothin more.

One method I have used with good luck to determine flukes is to use a microscope slide cover to gently scrap over the Gills of larger fish...same method works for the body....so thats something people can use to evaluate what they have going on and treat accordingly.

Salt to me is a medication....and has specific uses that may help treat certain things. In my experiences with discus it is useful for treating and preventing nitrite poisoning. Its useful as short time dip for parasites. Useful to alleviate stress in a fish by making It easier for the fishes gills to function properly, this is true under various stresses including disease and ammonia burns. and lastly..its promotes slime coat turn over and may have some usefulness in dealing with external bacterial infections...particularly columnaris... That last point is subjective and some swear by and others swear at those that use it.:D Like all things we put into our tanks...hobbyists need to take the time to research things on their own and learn as much about the agent as they can....advice by anyone on a forum should NEVER be followed blindly.

Hth,
al


Ok Al,

That is what I suspected. Another question, I often here about gill flukes with discus, but seldom to I here about body flukes. This seems odd to me, or are people just over-generalizing and grouping all flukes into one category?

While the medications are typically the same in treatment, the treatment protocol is different. Gill flukes are livebearers, while body flukes are egg layers. Add to the confusion, body flukes can and will infest the gills.

And one last thing I would like you to clarify, the proper use of salt. It seems like everytime someone posts to the disease section, the first few posts to come back are add salt this add salt that. Salt, IMHO, should be treated as a medication, and what we are eventually (if not already) going to do is develope salt resistant strains of everything. This is especially true when "shotgunning" salt with additional medications at the same time, which often times contradict each other in terms of the mode of operation.

[nc0gnet0]

Useful to alleviate stress in a fish by making It easier for the fishes gills to function properly, this is true under various stresses including disease and ammonia burns.

While this may indeed be the case, I find methylene blue to do a much better job in this particular case. Once again, just my opinion.

[brewmaster15]

Meth blue works there too....nothing wrong with that preference...Only thing to consider is that often times when theres a nitrite spike the gills may have been burned by either ammonia or the nitrite and thats where salt may be useful.

hth,
a

[Eddie]

I claimed to lost about 12 out of hundreds of fry over a long period including the ones I culled. I also mentioned a couple times that I looked at some fry under scope and saw 2-3 if any flukes. I will see what works best for me.

That does sound like your best option.

Good luck,

Eddie

[jimg]

When scoping for Flukes on discus, sacrificing the discus is probably the most effective way to get a picture of how bad the infestation is in a tank. On juvies and fry thats what I do here ...not many hobbies would feel comfortable doing that which makes ID even harder, IMO. On adults...a small Gill snip is possible...but Not easy and its not something most hobbyists would really want to try.

Most of the time...a fish flashes or breathes out of one Gill and meds are dumped in for Flukes and you hope for the best....this is the reason why resistant strains develop.

hth,
al

I agree with you on this Al a majority of the fry I culled/died I had to dissect them and completely remove all gill material and scope them.
A lot of times I was sure I eliminated the flukes but found a couple were buried deep in the gill near the base.
Whenever I tried gill washes on the larger adults I never saw anything. Jim

[nc0gnet0]

A lot of times I was sure I eliminated the flukes but found a couple were buried deep in the gill near the base.

I have seen several debates on this and am kinda on the fence. General consensus from other forums is that if you look long and hard enough at any fish's gills, eventually you will find a few flukes, attempts at total eradication may cause more harm then good, the question is how many flukes is cause for concern. Personally, on my koi, I like to see less then 2 per 50 fields. I am curious how other feel about this as it relates to discus.

[jimg]

I have seen several debates on this and am kinda on the fence. General consensus from other forums is that if you look long and hard enough at any fish's gills, eventually you will find a few flukes, attempts at total eradication may cause more harm then good, the question is how many flukes is cause for concern. Personally, on my koi, I like to see less then 2 per 50 fields. I am curious how other feel about this as it relates to discus.

The way I look at it is if there are two there can be many, just a matter of time. I could have terminated all my fry when I found a couple of flukes on them. but then I would never know exactly what treatment worked best for me.